Rolling Vs. Banked Hubs, Advantages?

TWA772LR · Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:57 am

What are the advantages of rolling hubs vs banked? And the other way around?
I can see a rolling hub having smaller take off queues therefore minimizing delays.

One disadvantage would be all the gates could be full at one time.

Thoughts?

mayor · Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:07 am

One trouble with banked hubs, I believe, is what happens when one bank hasn't left, yet and the next bank arrives early and is sitting there waiting for gates. Passengers don't understand why they aren't parking when they see some gates open and they're still waiting.

opethfan · Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:18 am

Also, with a banked hub you have a huge need for staffing and space, then suddenly none and you're paying staff to wait around for the next bank to arrive / depart.

hOMSaR · Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:51 am

Basically, banked hubs are good for maximizing passenger connections, while rolling hubs can be good for maximizing use of resources (staff, planes, gates, etc.).

AT · Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:09 am

Couldn't there be a hybrid approach with a combination of banking for key times and routes and a more rolling structure for others?

I think Dubai has something like that-- some very heavy banks (the last three times I landed there around midnight we were circling and circling for ever), but then additional flights peppered through emptier times.

enilria · Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:30 am

The bigger the hub the less difference it makes. Small hubs work poorly with rolling banks.

USAirALB · Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:10 am

Quoting AT (Reply 4):
Couldn't there be a hybrid approach with a combination of banking for key times and routes and a more rolling structure for others?

I think most airlines with banked systems do this.

For example, with US at CLT, you have X amount of banks each day, but then you have flights to larger outstations and key markets continuously throughout the day.

mayor · Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:29 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6):
I think most airlines with banked systems do this.

As I recall, in SLC with DL, we had alternating, different sized banks........0900-large, 1000-smaller, 1100-larger and so on, thruout the day.......at least that way, not every bank filled up every gate......each bank had a slight bit of overlap with the subsequent bank.

OzarkD9S · Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:55 am

I liked it rolling, more time between connections. All the smaller hubs are gone, 120 minutes please.

TWA772LR · Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:27 am

For a banked hub, about how many flights are in each bank?

b727fa · Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:55 pm

Rolling can be harder of flight crews I've found as there is significantly less time between flights (that's the point) and I almost never keep a plane in a hub. So we'll get tail-swaps with :53 turns...and it's often difficult to keep the schedule that way. I would hazard to say most airlines rely on early arrivals to pad the turn times in hubs.

cougar15 · Thu Dec 25, 2014 5:06 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 10):
Rolling can be harder of flight crews I've found as there is significantly less time between flights (that's the point) and I almost never keep a plane in a hub. So we'll get tail-swaps with :53 turns...and it's often difficult to keep the schedule that way. I would hazard to say most airlines rely on early arrivals to pad the turn times in hubs.

lots of Quality Input here from the North American side of the Pond, try the banks in the sandpits like DXB , DOH or AUH with 90% longhaul conx (and there are no regional subsidies to worry about) ! Stress pure, both for Pax & Crews, but then, I guess that is their (most successful) Business model!

flyorski · Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 7):
As I recall, in SLC with DL, we had alternating, different sized banks........0900-large, 1000-smaller, 1100-larger and so on, throughout the day.......at least that way, not every bank filled up every gate......each bank had a slight bit of overlap with the subsequent bank.

In SLC with DL the 9:00 bank tends to be west coast flights with a few key markets in the east such as MSP, DTW, JFK and ATL thrown in the mix. Then the 10:00 bank is every east coast city served by DL, places like BOS, MCO, etc. Major DL hubs are also served during the 10:00 bank again. Then the 11:00 bank is every west coast city in the DL network along with some midwest service and another ATL and JFK. HNL will depart at the end of the 11:00 bank. After that the banks tend to be smaller until the 17:00 bank which is the largest bank of the day. It tends to be a combination of the 10:00 and 11:00 banks from the morning with virtually every market DL serves from SLC seeing service. This is also when the CDG flight departs and soon AMS will join on this bank.

boeingrulz · Thu Dec 25, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 8):
more time between connections.

I have a hard time getting around because of joint problems and when I have connected through Charles De Gaulle and Schiphol the flights often have a 1 hour connection. Since the only time I connect in these cities is from a single flight a day origin and single flight a day connection it is not possible to schedule a later flight. One hour is too short for a comfortable transit for me. Plus after getting off an Air France flight where they serve instant coffee it is good to grab a cup of real coffee and have a croissant.

mayor · Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:30 pm

Quoting flyorski (Reply 12):

Things have changed slightly since I retired. 1000 used to be east coast....1100 was west coast and intermountain west.......1200 was east coast again, including CVG and ATL..........

toxtethogrady · Thu Dec 25, 2014 11:20 pm

Banked hubs allow the greatest number of passenger transfer options. Rolling hubs spread out the congestion. It depends on what you value as an airline.

bohica · Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:43 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
For a banked hub, about how many flights are in each bank?

As many flights as schedule planning can cram into a hub. It is usually determined by the number of aircraft parking positions available. Then schedule planning would pressure the station manager to accept "just one more flight." The pressure was increased until the station manager gave in and allowed the extra flight(s). The last inbound flights were "scheduled" to arrive at about the same time as the first departures of the bank and take those parking spots vacated by the first departures.

It looks great on paper. Does it work in reality? NO! This was always a major headache when I used to work in Ops. Those last inbounds would always be arriving a few minutes early and would have to hold in the penalty box until the gate opened up. Many times we would have to resort to download a flight at a remote stand then send the plane back to the penalty box until the gate opened. Where I used to work we had about 46 parking positions and about 48-50 flights during a regular bank. During the last bank we could have as many as 50-53 arrivals, about 10 of them being RON aircraft. Getting the first group of RON's off the gates were a priority so we had enough gate space for the operation of the last bank.

RDUDDJI · Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:56 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 8):
I liked it rolling, more time between connections. All the smaller hubs are gone, 120 minutes please.

Business travelers, like me, don't want long connections (very inefficient). However, I can see where some leisure pax would love it. Even if the hub is banked, one can usually choose a longer connection (i.e. to the next bank). An additional benefit is that longer connections are usually cheaper.

One must remember that connections drive up demand which drives up $. It's easy to connect peeps in a bank. In a rolling scenario it's still possible, but a bit more difficult unless the hub is so big that the banks run into each other anyway.

Question for the group...which other hubs (not gateways) consider themselves rolling?

In the U.S. I'd say ATL, DFW, ORD (for both AA/UA), maybe B6 at JFK due to slots. After that, I see most hubs as being primarily banked?

AAR90 · Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
What are the advantages of rolling hubs vs banked? And the other way around?

In simple terms: Revenue vs Costs.

Banked Hub: Higher REVENUE at higher COSTS compared to a Rolling Hub. The key to success is to ensure the revenue increases outweigh the cost increases.

Rolling Hub: Lower REVENUE at lower COSTS compared to a Banked Hub. The key to success is to ensure the cost decreases outweigh the revenue decreases.

During my time at AA, "marketing research" conducted three formal (read: very expensive) reviews of "hub realignment" during the 1990's. ALL three reviews revealed the same thing.... compress the banks even more than they already were generated far greater revenue increase than the cost increases. The reason traditional USA airlines "de-peaked" their hub complexes in early 2000's was due to the dramatic drop-off in air travel revenue in the post-9/11 era (i.e. the costs now outweighed the revenue). That era basically ended around 2005/06 and post-bankruptcy UA & DL "re-banked" their major hubs. Pre-bankruptcy AA management remained mired in their "minimum costs only" decision-making all the way up to bankruptcy. Post-bankruptcy (new) AA management is actually making decisions based upon both revenue and costs. An operating method many of us front-line folks may have forgotten even exists.

deltaflyertoo · Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 17):

Question for the group...which other hubs (not gateways) consider themselves rolling?

In the U.S. I'd say ATL, DFW, ORD (for both AA/UA), maybe B6 at JFK due to slots. After that, I see most hubs as being primarily banked?

ATL is def. banked. ATL is actually unique in that the banks aren't directional-i.e. the flights come from all over the country and arrive at once and then depart at once for the rest of the country. CLT with US is the same-very banked and multi-directional.

DTW and MSP are also very banked.

I think that AA was probably one of the only ones that ever went rolling. B6 at JFK is def. rolling as it primarily caters more to the O&D than connections.

[Edited 2014-12-26 13:25:16]

AirlineCritic · Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting boeingrulz (Reply 13):
I have a hard time getting around because of joint problems and when I have connected through Charles De Gaulle and Schiphol the flights often have a 1 hour connection. Since the only time I connect in these cities is from a single flight a day origin and single flight a day connection it is not possible to schedule a later flight. One hour is too short for a comfortable transit for me. Plus after getting off an Air France flight where they serve instant coffee it is good to grab a cup of real coffee and have a croissant.

Ha! CDG transfer have more problems than the 1 hour connection. Anyway, the proper procedure is to disembark and have a croissant in the city, then come back and take the flight

BA0197 · Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:41 am

I do wonder- is the banked/rolling hub a North American airline concept or do some European/ Asian airlines use it as well?

Viscount724 · Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:25 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 8):
I liked it rolling, more time between connections

Most passengers prefer the fastest connections. They also have higher display priority in reservations systems so are more likely to be booked.

AirlineCritic · Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:58 am

There are hubs and hubs. For the big ones, like DXB, I'm not sure passenger convenience or frequency for O&D matters much. It is simply a matter of what is possible and what is most economical. Cramming all those planes and people on the airport 24/7 isn't easy.

Polot · Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:32 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 21):
I do wonder- is the banked/rolling hub a North American airline concept or do some European/ Asian airlines use it as well?

Most airlines outside of North American use banked hubs. Because a large(r) proportion of their flights are intercontinental flights it is harder to make rolling hubs because you have to deal with drastic time zone differences when scheduling the flights, so they leave within a small window anyways.

North American carriers generally have a much larger short haul network than airlines in the rest of the world so the rolling hub concept is more feasible for them to implement if desired.

OzarkD9S · Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):

Most passengers prefer the fastest connections. They also have higher display priority in reservations systems so are more likely to be booked.

Really? Most people prefer a mad dash across one or more concourses or terminals with no time to use the restroom or grab a bite to eat?

So very glad I'm not like most people.

jetblue1965 · Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:38 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 25):

I'm with you ... In super sized terminals like ORD or IAH, I avoid 40 min connections at costs

Even without any delays, you'll be running across multiple concourses and barely make it to final boarding call

runway23 · Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 24):
Most airlines outside of North American use banked hubs. Because a large(r) proportion of their flights are intercontinental flights it is harder to make rolling hubs because you have to deal with drastic time zone differences when scheduling the flights, so they leave within a small window anyways.

Pretty much all European airlines with hubs are banked, the main exception being BA at LHR who is rolling but does so due to slot constraints.

AirlineCritic · Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:38 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 26):
I'm with you ... In super sized terminals like ORD or IAH, I avoid 40 min connections at costs

Lets just toss the under an hour transfers. For many of the airports we are talking about there is some sort of security procedure (even in DXB) to go through. I get nervous for anything under 1.5 hours, and for my flights through US, anything under 3 hours would be laughable given the slowness of immigration and security. Obviously domestic may be different.

And yes, bathroom stops once in a while are nice. And what about shopping? I'm pretty sure the airlines and airports together want you to buy more stuff. Have a dinner, even. Then sleep the next ride through.

enilria · Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting hOmsaR (Reply 3):

Basically, banked hubs are good for maximizing passenger connections, while rolling hubs can be good for maximizing use of resources (staff, planes, gates, etc.).

Another situation to point out is that rolling hubs only work in most cases where at least the primary markets are served with heavy frequency. If you had a rolling hub in STL with 4-6x to LAX, NYC, ORD, SFO, PHX, WAS, MCO, then you can fly once per day to ICT, MSP, COS, SLC, OAK, RDU, etc. and at least be sure that you can connect roundtrip to the core high frequency destinations. Having less frequency is less of a problem if you have more than one hub in the same region to provide other connecting opportunities.

If, however, you only fly once or twice per day to all spokes and have one hub in the area like in a typical transoceanic hub, rolling works VERY poorly because if you misconnect it becomes an unsellable 24 hour connect. The likelihood of being able to sell any roundtrip connections of consequence in that scenario is unlikely.

SESGDL · Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:19 am

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 19):
ATL is def. banked. ATL is actually unique in that the banks aren't directional-i.e. the flights come from all over the country and arrive at once and then depart at once for the rest of the country. CLT with US is the same-very banked and multi-directional.

There are no discernible banks at ATL, it's pretty much impossible when there are 750+ mainline flights within a 14 hour period each day. I believe that DL began referring to ATL as being a rolling hub nearly a decade ago.

Jeremy

washingtonflyer · Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:23 pm

Well, passengers have to weigh the pluses and minuses of tight hub connections to ensure they will actually make that connection. Hub location, time of year, aircraft type, likely gate location, etc., all play a role into how I pick a connecting hub when I am flying.

If a connection is 45 minutes in PHL in February, I am going to be very wary of accepting that connection. If the same connection is offered at PHX, I am more likely to accept it.

RDUDDJI · Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:32 pm

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 19):
ATL is def. banked. ATL is actually unique in that the banks aren't directional-i.e. the flights come from all over the country and arrive at once and then depart at once for the rest of the country.

Then how many banks per day does ATL have? It seems most times I miss a connection there I can usually find another flight departing within 90 minutes. I guess my thinking as a pax is that, if it's impossible to tell where one bank ends and the next begins, then it's pretty much the same thing as rolling...

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 19):
DTW and MSP are also very banked.

Absolutely, and it's very easy to tell when one bank ends and another begins. If you are in the concourse between banks it's like a ghost town.

Viscount724 · Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:15 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 25):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):

Most passengers prefer the fastest connections. They also have higher display priority in reservations systems so are more likely to be booked.

Really? Most people prefer a mad dash across one or more concourses or terminals with no time to use the restroom or grab a bite to eat?

So very glad I'm not like most people.

I used to look at connecting times and often chose one with a longer connection, but now I just go with the fastest elapsed time, knowing that as long as it's a legal connection, the airline is responsible for rerouting you and paying your expenses if a flight is late and you misconnect. In the past month I've connected at AMS/ZRH/VIE, all roughly 45 minute connections, and made them all with plenty of time to spare.

I've missed a few connections over the years but have always reached my destination the same day except for a few weather situations where the connecting time wouldn't have made any difference.

jetblue1965 · Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
but now I just go with the fastest elapsed time, knowing that as long as it's a legal connection, the airline is responsible for rerouting you and paying your expenses if a flight is late and you misconnect

also depends on the context. if you have a crucial meeting/event to attend, and you end up arriving at 10pm instead of noon, it could be a major difference.

no amount of voucher can make up for a missing wedding or funeral.

toxtethogrady · Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 1):
One trouble with banked hubs, I believe, is what happens when one bank hasn't left, yet and the next bank arrives early

It's why DFW built nice wide expanses of pavement out on the airfield. American's flights used to land and have no gates available. So they'd queue up their airplanes on the tarmac until the gates opened. Inconvenient but not disastrous.

washingtonflyer · Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:30 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 33):
I used to look at connecting times and often chose one with a longer connection, but now I just go with the fastest elapsed time, knowing that as long as it's a legal connection, the airline is responsible for rerouting you and paying your expenses if a flight is late and you misconnect. In the past month I've connected at AMS/ZRH/VIE, all roughly 45 minute connections, and made them all with plenty of time to spare.

This is not my experience in the USA. If a connection is busted owing to ATC delays or weather, the consensus is that the airlines really don't owe you anything. They will book you on the next available flight, but if you happen to be hungry, thats all on you. Additionally, if you blow a connection owing to weather or ATC and you are stuck overnight, very rarely will the airline pay for your hotel.

mayor · Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:57 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 34):
also depends on the context. if you have a crucial meeting/event to attend, and you end up arriving at 10pm instead of noon, it could be a major difference.

no amount of voucher can make up for a missing wedding or funeral.

It all comes down to someone making a decision.............do you want to piss off just one passenger or a whole planeload? Sometimes, that's what happens......you can hold a flight for one connection and mess up the rest of the pax OR you can let it go and make them happy and only have to deal with the one missed connection.

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:09 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):

I'm not arguing for holding the plane for that one guy, but just countering his point of booking the shortest connection available because the airline would deal with all the misconnects for him

I usually set my personal MCT to be roughly 15 mins more than published MCT

mayor · Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:20 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 38):
I'm not arguing for holding the plane for that one guy, but just countering his point of booking the shortest connection available because the airline would deal with all the misconnects for him

I usually set my personal MCT to be roughly 15 mins more than published MCT

I can tell you that, in SLC for instance, the ramp coordinator will work on a gate plot prior to a new schedule going into effect. Based on historical data, they will assign flights that have shown common connections to another flight in close proximity, gate wise. That's why, sometimes, it seems like your gate is a long way away from your connection.....apparently, there aren't usually that many connections between your arriving flight and your departure flight.

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