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777222LR
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Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Thu Dec 25, 2014 8:47 pm

Wondering if Boeing has any plans to supply aftermarket winglets for the 777ER program the way they did the 767-300ER?

I think it would expand the life of the numerous 777's out there. Not everyone needs the 300ER or the LR versions. AA and UA come to mind as benefitting from these. Then again, they may be phasing out 777's all together with the 787 and A350's.
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:01 pm

I am assuming you mean the 777-300 NON-ER, right?
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mmo
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
Wondering if Boeing has any plans to supply aftermarket winglets for the 777ER program the way they did the 767-300ER?

The 777 does not need winglets. The raked wingtips serve the same purpose as winglets.
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 2):
The 777 does not need winglets. The raked wingtips serve the same purpose as winglets.

Correct, like in the new planes the wing was designed to be very efficient, no need of wingless, same in B787, B748 and A350.

In the future we will see other improvements, manufacturers don't stop developing upgrades and way to try to reduce Basic Weight and increase MTOW.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 1):

I am assuming you mean the 777-300 NON-ER, right?

Must be, but Very few in operation and very little second hand market, most probably recycling is the best option for anything that is not a B77W.
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Thu Dec 25, 2014 9:55 pm

OP is referring to the 777-200ER which a lot of airlines have but most are getting a little long in the tooth. Although the added efficiency would be a plus - I believe in the 6% range - it just wouldn't be worth the cost in that models tenure.
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Stitch
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:29 am

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
Wondering if Boeing has any plans to supply aftermarket winglets for the 777ER program the way they did the 767-300ER?

Aviation Partners did look into them about a decade ago for the 777-200 / 777-200ER / 777-300, but never went forward with the idea so I assume it didn't pan out.
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:26 am

If raked wingtips work just as well, why not retrofit them onto the -200ER? One would think it would be a little easier and require less strengthening of the wing than for winglets. Gate width shouldn't be a problem since there already are 777s with the slightly wider wingspan. But it probably wouldn't garner enough orders to be feasible... carriers don't seem particularly eager to invest that much in their 77E fleets nowadays.

[Edited 2014-12-25 21:27:57]

[Edited 2014-12-25 21:29:48]
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:45 am

Why all the dumping on the 772. It's a profitable, well built aircraft that will fly for decades to come.
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:24 am

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 6):

If raked wingtips work just as well, why not retrofit them onto the -200ER? One would think it would be a little easier and require less strengthening of the wing than for winglets

Raked wingtips have to be designed from the beginning of an aircrafts development. You could retrofit them, but it would require extensive modification to the wings and wing box, which would cost millions.

A 777-200ER or 777-300 would look pretty badass with scimitars, IMO.
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747-600X
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:32 am

A) I think the original post referred to the 777s which do not have the benefit of raked wingtips: -200, -200ER, -300. Only the -200LR (and -F) and -300ER have raked wingtips.

B) As TWA772LR pointed out, a raked wingtip is different than a winglet, insomuch as it is a lift-generating surface. This is why they're preferable to winglets - they help cancel out wake vortices while still being useful as airfoils. But you can't slap a wing on the end of your wing without doing a bit more work than is probably worthwhile. That doesn't explain why a winglet wouldn't be helpful, but on balance, it probably just doesn't come out positive. Consider MD-80s and -90s and 717s. No one has bothered putting winglets on these even though aircraft of similar design (CRJ) and size (737) have winglets. We have to assume that the people who do the aeronautical engineering have taken a look at it and it just doesn't prove worthwhile.
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:05 am

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
AA and UA come to mind as benefitting from these. Then again, they may be phasing out 777's all together with the 787 and A350's.

This is a whole 'nother topic of discussion. Both airlines could actually replace some their 777s with 777s.

Quoting 777222LR (Thread starter):
I think it would expand the life of the numerous 777's out there.

777-200s and -300s are, ever so slowly, being made obsolete slowly by 787-9, -10s, and the A350. The -300ER and -200LR both have raked wingtips, and so does everything new in the Boeing lineup, except for the 737 MAX, which will have the AT Winglet.

In only a few years, the 777-9 and -8 will be arriving, and the 787 and it's technology and design have really done wonders for Boeing. Eventually, the NSA will exist, and it's possible that aircraft won't even need winglets or other wingtip devices.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 8):
A 777-200ER or 777-300 would look pretty badass with scimitars, IMO.

You kidding me?! Put them on the 777X, and then we'll see who's the pretty bird!

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
Why all the dumping on the 772. It's a profitable, well built aircraft that will fly for decades to come.

Indeed it will be. The youngest 777-200ER is only about 3 or so years old. They're not going anytime soon.
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:57 am

IIRC isn't the blended winglet less efficient on larger aircraft, but it isn't offered on smaller aircraft because of gate spacing? I remember seeing that somewhere but I can't find it at the moment. Also the 747 was tested with blended winglets but canceled because the increased weight counteracted the savings. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 8:00 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Correct, like in the new planes the wing was designed to be very efficient, no need of wingless, same in B787, B748 and A350.

Not to nitpick, but the A350 actually is designed with a wingtip device. I believe Airbus refers to it as a sharklet.
 
tristan7977
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:12 am

A 777 with winglets just doesn't look right, and honestly it isn't needed.
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:39 am

I don't know why anybody would want to pay $1M a set for and airplane you're already replacing. We have 35 A350's on order
and even if they can't replace the 744, they can sure replace the 777-200A's and some of the -200B's along with the B787-10's still to come there's no demonstrated Need to add anything to that True workhorse of an airplane.
Those girls have served us WELL here at United. Let the Next owners put winglets on them I've flown round the world on the 777 Including the flight that led to SQ buying their 777's . That was Epic!
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:52 am

Quoting 747-600X (Reply 9):
As TWA772LR pointed out, a raked wingtip is different than a winglet, insomuch as it is a lift-generating surface.

Nitpick: sure, a raked tip is a lifting surface, while a winglet is not... but the winglet still does things to the aerodynamics of the wing that can make adding them problematic. In particular, in addition to reducing vortices, installing a winglet usually makes the area near the tip of an existing wing more efficient due to cleaner airflow. Which in turn increases the bending moment on the wing root, as the outer tip, with its very long lever, is now generating a bit more lift.

The effect is usually not that strong, but together with possible flutter implications, this can make installation of winglets impossible on wings that were not designed for them. Gliders are a type of plane where winglets are frequently added on older ships: and one well-known example where it cannot be done is the DG400, due to insufficient structural reserves in the wing design. The added bending moment would be too much. In other types, such as the LS4, adding winglets reduces the maximum cockpit load, for the very same reason.

Without knowing the limits and specifics of the 777-200 wing, one simply cannot say whether it would be doable, or not. Chances are that this is a case like the DG400, where the design of the plane simply does not allow it.
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:40 pm

Mostly because winglets are not needed on EVERY design....
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:59 pm

Quoting tristan7977 (Reply 13):

You can just go on Google Images and look up photoshopped pictures of a 777 with winglets. It looks really strange and ugly with them on.
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 4:15 pm

Both add performance, but again , IIRC winglets have better climb performance with a slight weight penalty in cruise while raked is the other way round. So you see no ultra long range planes with winglets but all short to medium range planes where a fast climb to optimum cruise altitude is needed. All hybrid longrange planes with a medium to even short range market are sporting the winglets.

Nice article here https://www.facebook.com/atpltheory/posts/486422511385684
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting Boeing737MAX (Reply 17):
You can just go on Google Images and look up photoshopped pictures of a 777 with winglets. It looks really strange and ugly with them on.

I think it depends on who you ask, but in my opinion, it actually doesn't look that bad.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00006777.jpg
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 19):
it actually doesn't look that bad.

I think it looks quite awe inspiring!
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting UA735WL (Reply 6):
If raked wingtips work just as well, why not retrofit them onto the -200ER? One would think it would be a little easier and require less strengthening of the wing than for winglets.

The opposite is true. Winglets increase the lift on the span of the wing just inboard of the winglet itself. Raked wingtips increase the lift outboard of the main span, so the bending moment on the wing root is actually greater with the raked tip. The addition of raked tips to the baseline 777 wing would involve more strengthening than the addition of nonplanar winglets.

Why hasn't it been done? I'm not sure. It's not the age of the 772. The 763 is much older but has an active winglet program. It may just be that the gains from the program would be smaller than they are on older models and thus there isn't as much interest.
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:38 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Why hasn't it been done? I'm not sure. It's not the age of the 772. The 763 is much older but has an active winglet program. It may just be that the gains from the program would be smaller than they are on older models and thus there isn't as much interest.

Maybe because there's no other plane that small that competes directly with the 763 whereas with the 77E, there is the A333, 77L and now the A339, 789 and A359. The 788, A332, A338 are all actually in a bracket larger than the 763.
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:41 pm

An interesting question.

The 772ER is a fine aircraft and I feel a lot of people here are bashing it without much warrant lately. The idea it is obsolete could only be brought up here on A.net! People make it sound like something teetering on the edge of being turning into coke cans.

I don't think anyone here has the real expertise to explain for certain why there is no winglet program in place for the 772ER. All we can do is make educated guesses.

My guess is it is currently not required or the percentage of increased fuel economy doesn't outweigh the expense of installation and added weight.
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Fri Dec 26, 2014 9:52 pm

Quoting galleypower (Reply 18):

Nice article here

A lot of inaccuracies in that article. First of all, winglets do increase lift by decreasing the overall field of vorticity around the wing. In a standard three-dimensional planar wing, if we ignore the front-to-back flow, air above the wing is generally moving inward and downward, while air below the wing is moving downward and outward. Thus, a three-dimensional wing is flying through a downdraft of its own making. This reduces the overall lift generated by the wing requiring a greater AOA and thus greater induced drag. A nonplanar winglet interferes with this circulation and reduces the sidewash (and thus the downdraft). Because the sidewash is usually greatest at the outboard segment of the wing, the winglet has its greatest effect on the outboard segment. But that bending moment isn't as bad as it is for a raked wip (planar extension) where the additional lift is outboard of the main span.

The advantages of a raked tip are 1) less weight and wetted area 2) gust unloading. The disadvantages are 1) greater bending moment on the wing root and 2) increased span, which may cause airport operations/compatability issues.

The advantages of a winglet are 1) Less span and 2) Less bending moment on the wing. The disadvantages are 1) greater added weight/wetted area and 2) no gust unloading. Nonplanar winglets can also introduce some handling issues in high-crosswind situations but these are not usually an issue for normal operations.

As for takeoff/climb vs cruise, I think the differences are overblown. But as a general rule, a 3 foot nonplanar winglet will introduce the same benefit as a 2 foot span extension while adding the bending moment of a 1 foot span extension.

I will also point out that the 764 doesn't have quite as much range as the 763 and yet the 764 has raked tips. This is because raked tips are best added to a wing during initial design when the additional strengthening of the inboard spar can be directly engineered into the wing. Added strengthening tends to weigh more per unit of strength than built-in strengthening and so generally add-on wingtip devices are nonplanar. If the wingtip device is to be added with initial production, then a planar device makes more sense. That said, Airbus has never used pure raked tips. Their latest widebody wingtip device used on the A350 and A330NEO is a span extension with a non-planar element. It probably has some of the benefits (and drawbacks) of both. Of consideration is that Airbus does tend to use a stiffer wing than Boeing on their widebodies, so the aeroelastic benefits of a pure raked tip might not be as good.
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Motorhussy
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 23):
I don't think anyone here has the real expertise to explain for certain why there is no winglet program in place for the 772ER. All we can do is make educated guesses.

Given the amount of airline: pilots, crew, engineers, marketing people, av journalists etc that are regulars on here, I'd say some of the expertise gleaned from particular people is just that, and something more than guesswork, educated or otherwise.

Obviously there has been no commercially viable option put forward that makes the existing stock of 77E aircraft competitive with later build A333's, at a price that's worthwhile. Operators like NZ are making theirs more profitable and competitive by fitting 10-abreast seating in Y.
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Boeing778X
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:53 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 23):
The 772ER is a fine aircraft and I feel a lot of people here are bashing it without much warrant lately. The idea it is obsolete could only be brought up here on A.net!

Well, it's usually the finer Boeing aircraft that get the ridicule here on A.net.

But, don't forget that all good things must end. The 777-200 is no doubt a fine aircraft, and it remains as so.

Quoting garpd (Reply 23):
I don't think anyone here has the real expertise to explain for certain why there is no winglet program in place for the 772ER. All we can do is make educated guesses.

My guess is it is currently not required or the percentage of increased fuel economy doesn't outweigh the expense of installation and added weight.

You could be right, but even if a retrofit of some sort were available, how would that perform over raked wingtips?
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Aesma
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:16 pm

Quoting aerolimani (Reply 12):
Not to nitpick, but the A350 actually is designed with a wingtip device. I believe Airbus refers to it as a sharklet.

The sharklet is what is put on the new A320s and A320neo. I don't think the A350 wingtip devices have been named anything special.

BTW the A320 sharklet illustrates pretty well the problem caused when adding a new wingtip device to a well optimized wing (one that isn't overbuilt). Despite sporting another type of wingtip device already, going for the sharklet Airbus had to strengthen/redesign 19 ribs out of 27 in the wing, and reinforce the wingbox too ! No trivial matter, and we'll never see older A320s get the sharklet, only new built ones.
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Sat Dec 27, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
No trivial matter, and we'll never see older A320s get the sharklet, only new built ones.

You might want to have a look at this then:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...t-retrofit-for-older-a320s-407321/
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 23):
An interesting question.

The 772ER is a fine aircraft and I feel a lot of people here are bashing it without much warrant lately. The idea it is obsolete could only be brought up here on A.net! People make it sound like something teetering on the edge of being turning into coke cans.

The idea that a plane which had it's last order 5 years ago may be reaching the end of its life is really that far fetched? Especially considering the A359 and 787J, which will be much better replacements are almost already here. Okay then.
 
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:41 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
and we'll never see older A320s get the sharklet, only new built ones.

I could've sworn I saw somewhere Airbus was working on a retrofit program. If you can retrofit a 737, you should be able to do the same to an A32X.
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Does Boeing Have Plans To Winglet The 777ER?

Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 30):
I could've sworn I saw somewhere Airbus was working on a retrofit program. If you can retrofit a 737, you should be able to do the same to an A32X.

See reply 28.
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