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karungguni
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Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:41 am

For the most part, Trans US has moved to single aisle aircraft. Why has economics not pushed the same in Australia?
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:50 am

Quoting karungguni (Thread starter):

It has, all the major airlines operate a predominantly single-aisle fleet.

However, PER - East Coast is a long flight (up to 5.5 hours) and passengers prefer wide-body aircraft for longer flights so both QF and VA have found it better to run A330's (and historically 747's and 767's) on these route and therefore reduce the frequency of service.

MEL-SYD is also one of the busiest air routes in the world, with services every 15mins at peak and operating larger aircraft on this route gives QF an advantage with business passengers and allows them to increase capacity when they can't really increase flight frequency.
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:57 am

The same apply for the Middle East, you can fly A380 from DXB to JED & KWI. Also flights from JED to RUH is operated almost every day with a widebody. I think the demand in Asia & Australia is requiring a widebody to serve short routes.
 
karungguni
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:18 am

How can passenger preferences hold over economics. Perth and Sydney have substantially lower populations than New York and Los Angeles.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:33 am

Quoting karungguni (Reply 3):
How can passenger preferences hold over economics

Heaven forbid that an organisation considers what their customers want!

Might actually work out more economical in any case, due to the time differences most pax like to fly in limited set of times. running a few full wide bodies at those times of day instead of many narrow bodies spread thru the day seems to make sense to the airlines.
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The Coachman
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:38 am

Unfortunately you don't understand the economics of SYD-PER. There is enough traffic to warrant widebodies, particularly economy class traffic. The CASM of the A330 beats 73H if you have a high demand for Y seats.

LAX-JFK flights are high-yield - you can move low-yield pax wanting to fly between these 2 cities via ORD/DFW/IAH/ATL/MSP/DEN/PHX/SLC etc etc. You can't do that in Australia. There's no point sending cheap passengers via ADL as an east/west connecting hub to PER. Utterly pointless.

Most LAX-JFK/EWR flights are configured with flat bed J seats. There aren't enough flights SYD/MEL-PER to warrant a sub-fleet of 73H's configured 30J/60Y. The 73H's that do fly SYD/MEL/BNE-PER also do normal SYD-MEL 1 hour runs which don't warrant a flat bed J class. A 30J/60Y configuration would kill the economics on other sectors.

QF are moving to a configuration that can fly SYD/MEL-PER and SYD-SIN with product interchangeability in order to increase the flexibility of their 330s.
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TruemanQLD
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:41 am

Quoting karungguni (Reply 3):
How can passenger preferences hold over economics. Perth and Sydney have substantially lower populations than New York and Los Angeles.

It doesn't.

A route like PER-SYD doesn't require high frequency operations (and there are only certain time bands flights can leave due to curfew and not wanting to land at odd hours, so PER-SYD flights don't leave between 3pm and 10pm).

PER-East Coast is also more of a premium market (due to its length) than any other route, and the A330's are configured accordingly.

So for VA, their A332 are 26J/251Y and they operate PER-SYD 4x daily so 104J and 1004Y seats. If they were to operate 737-800's on this route, they have a layout of 8J/168Y, so would need to operate 13 services to match that J capacity (and the Y capacity would be far too high).

Likewise, QF operates PER-SYD up to 7x daily with the A332 (36J/265Y) or 252J and 1855Y per day. Their 737's are 12J/156Y so would need 21 services per day just to match the J capacity, and would have same problem with too much Y.

Obviously they could operate a subfleet of 737's with higher J and lower Y, however, as previously said, passengers prefer wide body aircraft (+ more freight) and a subfleet is an extra cost.

IIRC, a fully loaded wide body aircraft is more economical on flights the length of PER-SYD/BNE/MEL, so if they can fill it, it is going to be the better option.

It probably makes less sense for VA as their A330's are a subfleet just for the PER routes, but I think its a bit of a prestige thing to match QF.
 
tayser
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:54 am

Quoting karungguni (Reply 3):
How can passenger preferences hold over economics. Perth and Sydney have substantially lower populations than New York and Los Angeles.



According to BITRE: https://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/ongoing/files/Domestic_aviation_%20Oct_2014.pdf in the year ending October 31st there were:

Melbourne - Perth: 2,159,000
Sydney - Perth: 1,798,000
Brisbane - Perth: 1,074,400

And other city pairs where widebodies are can be found:

Melbourne - Sydney: 8,305,300
Sydney - Brisbane: 4,477,300
Melbourne - Brisbane: 3,308,200

[Edited 2014-12-27 00:57:20]

[Edited 2014-12-27 00:57:43]
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:07 am

Quoting tayser (Reply 7):
Melbourne - Perth: 2,159,000
Sydney - Perth: 1,798,000
Brisbane - Perth: 1,074,400

That's interesting.. anyone shed some light on why MEL-PER is so much busier than SYD-PER?
 
tullamarine
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:18 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 8):

The absence of curfews at both ends means there can be more Mel services than Syd. Mel is also a fair bit closer to Per than Syd so connecting pax from Cbr,NZ etc are more likely to use Mel
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Aaron747
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:25 am

Quoting karungguni (Reply 3):

Really, these markets cannot be compared. Between NYC and LA you have up to 8 airports in connection with one another, with at least 6-10 airlines in the marketplace on some sectors. In the Australian market, you have one airport to one airport in each city pair, with maximum 4 carriers on a route. Plus the already mentioned differences in frequency, airport curfew, and no connecting cities in between. It's no secret why transcon flying in Australia requires widebody lift.

Even with MEL-SYD, geography explains everything. No straight shot highway or rail link due to mountainous terrain, virtually nothing in between...it's no wonder everyone flies. This is not the US northeast where you have five metropolitan areas in one 600 km stretch sharing highways and rail.
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Viscount724
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:01 am

Quoting karungguni (Thread starter):
For the most part, Trans US has moved to single aisle aircraft. Why has economics not pushed the same in Australia?

Australia's population is much more concentrated in a few large cities than the US. Makes widebody operations more efficient.

It's similar in Canada. For example, today (Saturday) 7 of AC's 12 daily YVR-YYZ nonstops are widebodies, including 4 77Ws, 2 763s and 1 788.

[Edited 2014-12-27 02:12:28]
 
aviationaware
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:08 am

Quoting karungguni (Reply 3):
How can passenger preferences hold over economics. Perth and Sydney have substantially lower populations than New York and Los Angeles.

Perth is the remotest city on earth. No other city is as far from the next large city as Perth is. This makes air travel the only viable form of transportation to get out of it. Los Angeles, on the other hand, is not remote, but has a load of large cities nearby. It can facilitate connections in its own right. Perth can't - if there is not a direct flight to the destination you want to go to, you have to fly to one of the Hubs in eastern Australia to connect (unless you are going to Europe).

Also, don't forget that Australian airport infrastructure is not exactly designed for high frequency operations. Most even of the largest airports operate with a single effective runway or, if they have multiple useable runways, have them in a configuration that does not allow independent use.

Quoting UAEflyer (Reply 2):
The same apply for the Middle East, you can fly A380 from DXB to JED & KWI.

Sorry, but this is definitely not comparable. Australia has an actual economy that drives the need for those flights, the widebodies and A380s on the short hops in the Middle East are only due to lack of narrowbodies in the airlines' fleets and to maximize utilization. They have nothing to do with demand.
 
tomcat
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:21 pm

Is it also relevant to consider that a fair amount of freight is moved by plane as well across Australia? That would help justifying the use of wide body aircraft.
 
jfk777
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:53 pm

Big Planes are used in Australia many because there are few cities with huge populations and cargo that needs to get from one to another. Perth to Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney are 6 hour flights where people will pay for Business Class which is far better on an A330 or 767 then a 737-800.
 
29erUSA187
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 12):

I don't hink that's true. What about HNL?
 
infinit
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
Australia's population is much more concentrated in a few large cities than the US. Makes widebody operations more efficient.

That's exactly it.

I also always believed that in the US where there are as many as flights every half hour between some city pairs on narrowbodies, the economics could favour a wide body every ninty minutes to two houra especially when you consider runway congestion etc
 
United Airline
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:52 pm

Any QF domestic B747-400 or A380 service?
 
CODCAIAH
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 12):
Perth is the remotest city on earth. No other city is as far from the next large city as Perth is. This makes air travel the only viable form of transportation to get out of it.
Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 15):
I don't hink that's true. What about HNL?

It is true. Honolulu's population is much smaller than Perth's 1.7 million). Honolulu is slightly more remote, by a couple hundred nautical miles, but Honolulu is not a huge, remote city the same way Perth is.

[Edited 2014-12-27 12:48:02]

[Edited 2014-12-27 12:48:40]
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Rotation
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:54 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
Between NYC and LA you have up to 8 airports in connection with one another, with at least 6-10 airlines in the marketplace on some sectors

That was going to be my point exactly - more airlines and multiple airports serving those cities vs the single airports of Australia (except Melbourne with AVV, but I don't think this gets any direct PER flights anymore).

Quoting CODCAIAH (Reply 18):
Any QF domestic B747-400 or A380 service?

Not scheduled regular service anymore - but still come on for special flights (like if a WA team is playing in the AFL Grand Final) unless I'm mistaken.

[Edited 2014-12-27 12:59:27]
AN YC BA QF JQ DJ NZ AA B6 TT VA WN VX UA SQ EY
 
Planesmart
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:08 pm

Other than international gateways, many US airports, through pricing, encourage frequency. Smaller aircraft equal smaller investment in hardware and staffing, equal smaller airport footprint, runways, etc.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:18 pm

As others have said, you cannot compare the Australian market to the USA.

I don't think "passenger preference" really comes into it as much as simple economics. There is absolutely no way whatsoever that flying a 737 every hour is competitive on cost with an A330 every two hours. Frequency is of less importance here. I guess the situation of the past three years since Virgin dumped capacity into the market in the name of marketshare could be interpreted as showing that you don't need that much capacity (and as it relates to VA that's probably correct), but the market does appear to be returning to equilibrium.

SYD-MEL is a different market altogether. At peak times QF fly every 15 minutes and VA every 30 minutes. Since you like drawing comparisons to the USA, can you think of any market with 6 flights an hour? I don't think even LGA-ORD or LAX-SFO has that much capacity. Wide bodies on this route has just been complicated by the retirement of the 767, which was the bread and butter aircraft on the route for decades, but between increasing frequency and some A330 turns capacity will remain constant.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 15):

I guess it depends how you define "remote", but PER is more remote than both HNL and ANC.
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tayser
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:32 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
SYD-MEL is a different market altogether. At peak times QF fly every 15 minutes and VA every 30 minutes. Since you like drawing comparisons to the USA, can you think of any market with 6 flights an hour? I don't think even LGA-ORD or LAX-SFO has that much capacity.

I know it's not the most definitive way to get data, but just typing "NYC - CHI flights" into our friend google, it comes up with 54+ flights a day, "MEL-SYD flights" has 55+ flights a day.

Only readily accessible metro area to metro area stats I can find on US ports is here, 2013 data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%2...ir_routes#United_States_.282013.29

Chicago - New York was 3.8 million - near enough to what Melbourne-Brisbane is in latest BITRE stats
 
aviationaware
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 12:03 am

Another thing to consider is staffing cost - Australian labor is among the most expensive in the world, much more expensive than in the US - so needing fewer crews plays a role as well, though probably not the decisive one.
 
tullamarine
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:44 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
I guess the situation of the past three years since Virgin dumped capacity into the market in the name of marketshare

My recollection is that VA was not alone in dumping extra capacity into the Australian market chasing or maintaining market share.
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tan1mill
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:58 am

As demand for air travel increases and the US population increases, will we eventually see a return of wide-body aircraft on US domestic routes? The National Airspace can only hold so many smaller planes at a time, and gate space may get harder to find as airports find it harder to expand. Thoughts?
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9MMPD
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:05 am

Quoting CODCAIAH (Reply 18):
It is true. Honolulu's population is much smaller than Perth's 1.7 million). Honolulu is slightly more remote, by a couple hundred nautical miles, but Honolulu is not a huge, remote city the same way Perth is.

We've actually cracked the 2 million mark now and by 2028 are tipped to over take Brisbane as Australia's 3rd largest city.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:18 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 24):
My recollection is that VA was not alone in dumping extra capacity into the Australian market chasing or maintaining market share.

VA started it, but both are equally to blame in the end, thankfully we have returned to some normality now.
 
Kent350787
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:42 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 17):

Any QF domestic B747-400 or A380 service?


No. QF had some SYD/MEL-PER flights as 744 a few years back ( and 743 prior to their retirement) but now 330. No 380 domestic.
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9mmrd
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:14 am

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 26):
We've actually cracked the 2 million mark now and by 2028 are tipped to over take Brisbane as Australia's 3rd largest city.

I call bull on the two million mark. The urban sprawl that constitutes "Perth" goes from Joondalup all the way down to Mandurah. Highly doubt Perth will take over Brisbane by then as well since mining is slumping. FIFO air traffic will slow down, business traffic will slow down as business moves back east (taking into consideration NSW has overtaken WA as fastest growing state economy again).

I believe the reason why PER-SYD uses wide-bodies is due to the curfews Sydney-side and the heavier business traffic on the relatively long route.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:59 am

Quoting 9MMRD (Reply 29):
Highly doubt Perth will take over Brisbane by then

Even without mining I think that is wildly optimistic. Brisbane is growing rapidly itself, and with the slow-down in the resources sector it is likely that both cities will equalise on growth rates in the 2-2.5% range over the foreseeable future.
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777Jet
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:11 am

Quoting kent350787 (Reply 28):
No 380 domestic.

  

But wouldn't it be something if QF had a domestic A380 flight one day...

Even if it is only on the SYD-MEL sector because of the need to re-position an aircraft maybe as a result of a future timetable / schedule change?

Anyway, it doesn't hurt to dream - and dream big!  
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9MMPD
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:39 am

Quoting 9MMRD (Reply 29):
call bull on the two million mark. The urban sprawl that constitutes "Perth" goes from Joondalup all the way down to Mandurah. Highly doubt Perth will take over Brisbane by then as well since mining is slumping. FIFO air traffic will slow down, business traffic will slow down as business moves back east (taking into consideration NSW has overtaken WA as fastest growing state economy again).
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 30):
Even without mining I think that is wildly optimistic. Brisbane is growing rapidly itself, and with the slow-down in the resources sector it is likely that both cities will equalise on growth rates in the 2-2.5% range over the foreseeable future.
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melpax
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RE: Why Are Wide Body Planes Still Common In Australia

Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:51 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
Even with MEL-SYD, geography explains everything. No straight shot highway or rail link due to mountainous terrain, virtually nothing in between...it's no wonder everyone flies. This is not the US northeast where you have five metropolitan areas in one 600 km stretch sharing highways and rail.

The main highway between MEL-SYD is actually quite direct & is now all built to freeway standard. But it still takes around 9 hours to drive from the MEL CBD to SYD CBD, whereas the flight takes an hour or so.

Melbourne & Sydney are also the 2 main business cities here, the 4 major banks have their HQ's in either city, as well as a lot of other big corporates. Not unusual for people based in MEL in certain roles to spend 1-2 days a week in SYD, and vice-versa.

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