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Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:56 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 197):
I would have thought some tamper-proof tracking device would have been implemented so that an aircraft can't "just disappear."

I think it's far too early to conclue this flight has "disappeared" ala MH370.
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4330
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 7:58 am

Quoting dalce (Reply 201):

I'm gettin fed up with these idiots here claiming they have "evidence" that xyz has happened....the involved aircraft has not yet been found, so wait for facts....
Also, who cares that Obama has been informed.....Who cares.... It is not even slightly newsworthy or related to the terrible fact that this aircraft with people, i repeat...People...on board is lost and probably crashed.
Show some respect to your fellow human beings.

        
 
TwoFourLeft
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:02 am

Quoting Brewfangrb (Reply 202):

Well, for some reason it is not showing up on radar and no one seems to know where it is, so I think that sounds like a good definition of "missing." (not "crashed," not "exploded," just "missing"). You will see that I was not jumping to any conclusion and was only stating that the aircraft IS missing. My main point is that we shouldn't be having aircraft suddenly dropping off the radar screen with zero explanation like this

[Edited 2014-12-28 00:07:39]
 
flymia
Posts: 7137
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:07 am

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 203):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 195):

Can you take your anti-Russian BS somewhere else?

If you read their feeds they said it was CCTV who actually mentioned that the wreckage had been found.

I understand you still feel the pain from the invasion you were subject to from the Soviet Union, but get over it, or get a better army next time.


While it might be anti-Russian it is 100% true. RT should not be seen as a very reputable news source by any means.


Anyway, horrible news. Hope for the best but its not looking good. Hopefully they can located wherever the aircraft is quickly and safely.
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:07 am

Here's hoping that the AC will be found asap for the benefit of everyone involved. Having these things drag out like what happened with MH370 is just terrible.

Let's hope for the best..
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:08 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 191):
Somewhat the same thing I was wondering. I don't understand why we still hadn't seen any changes made since MH 370. Does anyone know if there were any discussions among aviation organizations to address this problem? Unbelievable that this has now happened TWICE in one year. Terrible. 

I am not sure how we could make specific changes without knowing what exactly happened to MH370, especially since we have yet to find the plane.

As for some broader changes, what about changes to the int'l ATC system, so every country is on the same playing field?

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 198):
MH370 disappeared from radar. This flight has disappeared from radar. Both are missing, for some reason or another. I wasn't trying to speculate as to why.

True. I do believe, however, there are differences. The most obvious is that there was bad weather in the flight path of QZ8501, while in MH370 there is strong evidence to suggest that there was a major turn that took it away from the flight path. In addition, in the case of MH370, based of what I read on A.net, the system failures happened in such a way that indicates there was a sequence of events on the plane itself in which someone turned off the on board computers. I apologize if this info is outdated. At the present time, at least, that does not appear to be the case in this incident. This plane was on its planned route when it lost contact with ATC.

In its basic components, yes, we are dealing with the same issue - e/q disappearing from radar. Are the causes the same, probably not, but we won't be able to tell until we have, ideally for the sake of comparison, both planes back on the surface to inspect. What needs to be done on the broad scale is to avoid, as best as possible, areas that are filled with storms and when they cannot be avoided, to fly higher. I also think that we learned that the international community and the world's airlines need to rethink how much extra fuel should be carried. I know that so much fuel can pose a danger, but any amount can do that, and I know that it costs extra, but after two cases where planes presumedly crashed, I think that if the planes were carrying additional fuel, at least possibly in this case, they could have reached safety.

I also think that A and B need to look to improve the sudden climb ability and to increase the flight envelope, along with the angle of attack, so the planes don't stall as easily, esp. in bad weather.

I'm just spitballing here.
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:11 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 204):
You will see that I was not jumping to any conclusion and was only stating that the aircraft IS missing.

That is true. MH370 is missing and the circumstances surrounding that disappearance are suspicious and up in the air because it shouldn't have happened.

This shouldn't have happened either, but at least there are some clues as to what may have caused it.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:12 am

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 203):

Can you take your anti-Russian BS somewhere else?

You always pop in to defend Russia in every topic. Why?

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 203):
but get over it, or get a better army next time.

And nothing you posted is related to the fact that RT is one of the most unreliable sources and should not be quoted here.
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:14 am

I know that during the 10 o'clock hour (10 p.m. Pacific Time) some news organizations here - here meaning where I live, which I am sure you can all guess from my username - were reporting that the wreckage had not been found.

[Edited 2014-12-28 00:15:09]
 
Cassi
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:19 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:19 am

The Adam Air 574 disaster occurred in this area in 2007, not far from Surabaya. Then the crew became disoriented and lost control of the aircraft.
 
TwoFourLeft
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 207):
Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 208):

Yes, all we can do at this point (knowing what we know) is guess what happened. What I was suggesting is that there should be some way to locate the aircraft (or at least PART of the aircraft) at all times so that if something happens we can find the aircraft (or parts of it) and not have to go searching an entire ocean (with very little to go on) looking for it.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 810
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:21 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 209):

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 203):

Can you take your anti-Russian BS somewhere else?

You always pop in to defend Russia in every topic. Why?

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 203):
but get over it, or get a better army next time.

And nothing you posted is related to the fact that RT is one of the most unreliable sources and should not be quoted here.

Please READ what I said, the RT feed mentions CCTV as the source of the news about the wreckage being found, so why don't you blame the Chinese for sputtering lies? Simple, there is an ant-Russian bias by many of you around here.

In any case, let's leave that for some other forum topic.
 
factsonly
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:26 am

Quoting idlewildchild (Reply 162):
the conventional wisdom says "airplanes do not come down because of turbulence, other than the famous BA 707 back in the 60s over Japan."

Just to remind you:

Freak thunderstorms and turbulence have resulted in aircraft breaking up in-flight:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19811006-0
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 810
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:26 am

BTW, according to FR24 the last ADS-B reported airspeed was 469 knots, and I believe it was mentioned here the groundspeed was around 350 knots, is it possible to get a headwind of 119 knots?

That said, what would be the climb speed Mach number, about 0.59-0.6 @FL360? Wouldn't that be a bit on the slow side?
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:27 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 212):
What I was suggesting is that there should be some way to locate the aircraft (or at least PART of the aircraft) at all times so that if something happens we can find the aircraft (or parts of it) and not have to go searching an entire ocean (with very little to go on) looking for it.

Oh, OK. I didn't realize that. Is that type of thing, for the lack of a better term, even possible with today's technology? It would have to be better than radar, in that it can detect under its signal. What about having a network of sonar beacons in the ocean to catch and locate any water landings or crashes? It may be helpful, but then everyone would have to conduct a cost benefit analysis and the big question comes: Who pays for it? I think it could be helpful, but I think getting people on board, no pun intended, would be the issue. I also think that would have its limitations and I don't think its really that feasible or realistic to think that there would be sonar beacons or detectors in every portion of every ocean.

Before we try for something so grand, I think we need to make the UN's aviation divisions stronger and have a precedent that no commercial planes are allowed to play over any war zones, even if they fly over the edge of one. Ie. MH17.
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:31 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 205):
While it might be anti-Russian it is 100% true. RT should not be seen as a very reputable news source by any means.

          

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 208):
That is true. MH370 is missing and the circumstances surrounding that disappearance are suspicious and up in the air because it shouldn't have happened.

This shouldn't have happened either, but at least there are some clues as to what may have caused it.

I would also think, that in the current case, there is every reason to believe the A/C will be found and the cause determined.

[Edited 2014-12-28 00:34:26]
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:32 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 204):

I'm only pointing out that anytime a plane crashes it will almost certainly "lose contact" with ATC and fall off radar. Would it be preferable for the crash to be immediately located and "known"? Of course. But again, without speculating too far, if we agree the most likely scenario here is a crash, then it's merely a matter of locating the wreckage, without the unexplained factors present with MH370.

MH370 has "disappeared" because it's not been located for over a year. This aircraft has been "missing" for about 9 or 10 hours.

And as others have noted better than me--we don't know what's caused either of them to "disappear", so it seems unreasonable that "something should be done" to prevent this when that something isn't known. I'd also point out that if this plane simply crashed into the water, having spot-on satellite tracking wouldn't have prevented the loss of contact with ATC or it falling off radar.
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:35 am

Quoting factsonly (Reply 214):
Freak thunderstorms and turbulence have resulted in aircraft breaking up in-flight:

I would not be shocked if that happened here given what we know about turbulence, storm and lightening/thunder patterns in the area.

Given what we see from the leaked photos, esp. if they are validated, I think we can believe with some degree of confidence that there was a problem when trying to climb to FL380. Based off what I know and from what I do in X-Plane, which is not the FAA approved version, it seems like that is a low air speed for the altitude. Perhaps, as indicated earlier in the thread, the pilots were seeing a different air speed. I could see that happening as well, esp. if the reading came while they were ascending and if there was a lot of wind around the plane.
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:36 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 217):
I would also think, that in the current case, there is every reason to believe the A/C will be found and the cause determined.

I agree. One reason is because we know the area where it lost contact much better than the area where MH370 lost contact.
 
TwoFourLeft
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:38 am

I was thinking more along the lines of perhaps multiple super-resisant (ala Black Box) tracking devices mounted somewhere in the aircraft that it cannot be tampered with (i.e. ALWAYS transmits a signal) that always reports flight data (location, airspeed, altitude etc.) that could be used to give a much better idea of where the aircraft might have gone down (or otherwise ended up, if it was a hijacking or some other unplanned diversion). With AF 447 in mind, I think one good location might be in the tail
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:40 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 212):
Yes, all we can do at this point (knowing what we know) is guess what happened. What I was suggesting is that there should be some way to locate the aircraft (or at least PART of the aircraft) at all times so that if something happens we can find the aircraft (or parts of it) and not have to go searching an entire ocean (with very little to go on) looking for it.

The FDR and the CVR have 'pingers' that send distinct signals that may be detected, although at a fairly close distance. The ELT (detectable at longer distance) apparently is not sending out a signal. So there are already some devices in place that may be used, although nothing exists that could show ATC the location except the transponder (which stopped working).
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:40 am

Quoting Brewfangrb (Reply 218):
I'd also point out that if this plane simply crashed into the water

I also think that if it crashed into the water, any devices that would locate it on contact would fail after it moves in the water, which is something I would expect to happen. It would only give us a location of impact, which would help the rescue teams get to the wreckage's final resting spot.

Quoting Brewfangrb (Reply 218):
MH370 has "disappeared" because it's not been located for over a year. This aircraft has
been "missing" for about 9 or 10 hours.

That is how I thought/think of it as well. This A320 is temporarily misplaced, while the B777 is lost until it is found because it has yet to be found.
 
asetiadi
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 5:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:41 am

So it looks like, bad weather is one of the primary cause for the missing plane,

I was wondering, if there's a thunderstorm ahead / bad weather / turbulence / bad clouds, wouldn't those kind of things will be detected from aircraft radar system and give warnings to pilot to avoid the area well ahead of the situation?

All the pilots needs to do was just to change the heading and attitude set and the plane will go response automatically without manual control from the pilot right?

I just don't no how can a stall still occurred with auto pilot in control?
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:45 am

Quoting Brewfangrb (Reply 218):
MH370 has "disappeared" because it's not been located for over a year.

MH370 'disappeared' Saturday, 8 March 2014 - just under 10 months ago.
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:45 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 221):

Planes have black boxes now, but they can't tell ATC where the plane is. They have to be found via the pinger. I am not sure if putting that same or similar mechanism on the tail would actually help in these cases.

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 222):
The FDR and the CVR have 'pingers' that send distinct signals that may be detected, although at a fairly close distance. The ELT (detectable at longer distance) apparently is not sending out a signal. So there are already some devices in place that may be used, although nothing exists that could show ATC the location except the transponder (which stopped working).

I agree. You are still going to need the audible pinger in either case, I think. If not the pinger, then a similar sensory device. That device would only be able to be heard, seen, etc. by the rescuers.

What the ATC would need is a radio signal that would never fail, which I think is impossible, even if there was a constant satellite signal pulsating from the tail. I am not against it. In fact, I think it could be a good idea, I just don't think it is possible with the civilian technology and infrastructure we have at the present time.
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:47 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 224):
I was wondering, if there's a thunderstorm ahead / bad weather / turbulence / bad clouds, wouldn't those kind of things will be detected from aircraft radar system and give warnings to pilot to avoid the area well ahead of the situation?

I believe the weather system was so large that the only option, other than turning back or diverting (assuming enough fuel), was to try to climb over it.
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:49 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 224):

So it looks like, bad weather is one of the primary cause for the missing plane,

I agree with that.

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 224):
I was wondering, if there's a thunderstorm ahead / bad weather / turbulence / bad clouds, wouldn't those kind of things will be detected from aircraft radar system and give warnings to pilot to avoid the area well ahead of the situation?

It is my personal preference, but I would like to have a pilot working the controls to get us around bad weather, not an autopilot.

QZ8501's PIC had requested permission to climb. I am not sure if that was before or during bad weather. That act could have been what caused this incident, based on what I have read on this thread thus far.

How much weather shows up on the radar in the cockpit?
 
asetiadi
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 5:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:49 am

Ok now from www.detik.com, one of the family member received a message that all passengers is alive in East belitung.


AirAsia Lost Contacts
Surabaya - ray of hope appeared. One of the families who lost contact AirAsia slightly relieved. A message from his preaching if all passengers survived. "Reportedly emergency landing in East Belitung, all survived. But we still need a certainty," said Intan of Ntt Djomy Martinus family. Her sister to Singapore with his wife, a son and a baby sitter. Diamond admitted to being a vacation to Surabaya received the news of his friend through BBM. Information has also been submitted to the authorities in a crisis center Juanda Airport. But is it true that fuel the news? Until now there has been no confirmation from the relevant authorities.

I hope this is true!
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:50 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 227):
I believe the weather system was so large that the only option, other than turning back or diverting (assuming enough fuel), was to try to climb over it

If that was the case, I wonder why the crew didn't just file for a higher cruise altitude from the beginning.
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:51 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 225):
MH370 'disappeared' Saturday, 8 March 2014 - just under 10 months ago.

Ahh, thanks. That's what I get for not checking first and going with "off the top of my head". I guess the MH370 thread made me feel like it was longer. Sorry about that.
 
TwoFourLeft
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:52 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 217):
Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 219):
Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 220):

In looking at the aftermath of MH370's disappearance and the attempts to locate it, as I recall we first had a general area of where the plane might have gone down: the area where it last appeared on radar. They sent rescue ships there and found nothing. Then they found the "pings" from the engines which showed it going further in another direction and followed them... which also turned up nothing.

My thinking is this:
Black boxes are built to withstand the forces and heat of a crash. In the case of a crash, a GPS tracking device (or some other way of locating something) with the durability of a black box would continue to function and transmit data that could be used to locate it. And, in the event of a hijacking/other diversion, obviously the fact that it could not be tampered with would mean there would be no "disappearing."

[Edited 2014-12-28 00:55:43]
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:53 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):
I hope this is true!

I hope so too. That would be amazing.

I wonder how and where they would have been able to make an emergency landing. If they did make an emergency landing and everyone survived, the flight crew did a great job bringing her down and the cabin crew did a great job getting everybody prepared.
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:53 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 229):

I very much want to feel hope after reading this, yet my brain is telling me there's no way a modern passenger jet could have landed all that time ago without hearing this sooner.

At the very least ATC would have made contact with SIN many hours ago to advise the aircraft is safe. Still, stranger things have happened so let's hold on to a glimmer of hope for the souls on board.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4613
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:53 am

It sounds like the flight crew was very experienced. Whatever happened, the situation was obviously catastrophic. I just hope they find the plane soon, and still hoping for a miracle.

I feel so bad for Indonesia. That poor country just can't seem to get a break.
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:56 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 232):
My thinking is this:
Black boxes are built to withstand the forces and heat of a crash. In the case of a crash, a GPS tracking device with the durability of a black box would continue to function and transmit data that could be used to locate it. And, in the event of a hijacking/other diversion, obviously the fact that it could not be tampered with would mean there would be no "disappearing."

I like the idea of it, but I am not sure how a GPS would continue to be sent during and after an incident, even if the casing was indestructible. Can a GPS or radio signal even get through the black box case?

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 232):
Then they found the "pings" from the engines which showed it going further in another direction and followed them... which also turned up nothing.

I thought those "pings" were from the black box before it died. I was under the impression that the searchers were in the right general area, but that they were not able to go deep enough.
 
eielef
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:07 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:57 am

It's been more than 9 hours. There is no way the aircraft has fuel for so long. Now it should be 5pm in Singapore. A whole day has been, in daylight conditions, any other plane spotted something unusual in the water?
I really wish there were survivors, but... As it mostly happens, i doubt it.
Bad year for aviation. Specially for SEAsian carriers..
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:00 am

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 234):
I very much want to feel hope after reading this, yet my brain is telling me there's no way a modern passenger jet could have landed all that time ago without hearing this sooner.

You do wonder why it took so long to get out, but lack of an ATC transmission can make sense. The radio equipment could have been destroyed by the storm and/or by the impact. There may not be an airfield on the island and/or the closest ATC may not have a view of the island where the plane is supposedly intact.

To me the harder part to imagine is how a plane that went through all of that have survived enough to make an emergency landing, still remain near intact, and everybody is OK. I am hoping that they are and I am certainly hoping we can hear they did it. That would be really, really amazing - at least in my opinion.
 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:47 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:01 am

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 207):
I also think that A and B need to look to improve the sudden climb ability and to increase the flight envelope, along with the angle of attack, so the planes don't stall as easily, esp. in bad weather.

Wings stall at an alpha of about 14 degrees, give or take a bit. Pretty much all of them. That's not going to change.
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:13 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:02 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 221):

I was thinking more along the lines of perhaps multiple super-resisant (ala Black Box) tracking devices mounted somewhere in the aircraft that it cannot be tampered with (i.e. ALWAYS transmits a signal) that always reports flight data (location, airspeed, altitude etc.) that could be used to give a much better idea of where the aircraft might have gone down

Gotcha now. Can't really argue with this too much. I also thought the pingers on the FDR or CVR only activate when exposed to water or am somehow dreaming that up? It'd be nice as you say if there were multiple transponders that could not be deactivated or would have some sort of independent source of power. That might be overkill but...
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:02 am

Quoting eielef (Reply 237):
There is no way the aircraft has fuel for so long. Now it should be 5pm in Singapore.

Maybe the other planes can't see anything because of the storm below. Also, isn't the individual who posted the link about the pax being alive indicating that they would have landed long ago.

As for not seeing, if vision into the water below is possible, then it would be interesting if it was not spotted...even an oil slick or something of that nature.
 
asetiadi
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed May 15, 2013 5:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:04 am

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 234):
very much want to feel hope after reading this, yet my brain is telling me there's no way a modern passenger jet could have landed all that time ago without hearing this sooner.

At the very least ATC would have made contact with SIN many hours ago to advise the aircraft is safe. Still, stranger things have happened so let's hold on to a glimmer of hope for the souls on board.

I am hoping for a miracle as 2 of my friends are on that plane. But again I have the same feeling with you, there;s just no way. But again, they haven't confirmed the plane is crashed / landed / found. So possibilities are still there. Let;s hope for the best.

Now, I begin wondering since this tragedy could be pretty similar with AF447 case also perhaps with the missing MH that yet to be found, I wonder if FAA / world will make somehow an improvement device/safety protocol to prevent further tragedy. Turbulence is becoming scary lately now!
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:06 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 239):
Wings stall at an alpha of about 14 degrees, give or take a bit. Pretty much all of them. That's not going to change.

Oh, OK. Thanks for the info. By "alpha" do you mean angle or something else?

Quoting Brewfangrb (Reply 240):
I also thought the pingers on the FDR or CVR only activate when exposed to water or am somehow dreaming that up?

I am not sure, but I do think it is something like that. It may just be any impact or pressure because they do ping when there is a crash over land. I know that the emergency beacons on the Deadliest Catch type crab/fishing boats only go off when they are exposed to water. At least the ones a few years ago when I still watched the show did that.
 
TwoFourLeft
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:07 am

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 236):
I am not sure how a GPS would continue to be sent during and after an incident, even if the casing was indestructible. Can a GPS or radio signal even get through the black box case?

I don't have an answer to either of those questions. I don't know if such technology exists (yet). But if it was possible, I think it would make sense.

Quoting laxboeingman (Reply 236):
I thought those "pings" were from the black box before it died. I was under the impression that the searchers were in the right general area, but that they were not able to go deep enough.

I will admit that my recollection might not be spot-on, but I remember hearing something about some sort of signal being transmitted from the engines (installed by the manufacturer)-- which they followed-- and then, yes, "pings" from the black box. I don't exactly know what a "ping" is. Is it some kind of sound? Either way, we had a GIGANTIC possible search area but didn't have a precise location (part of why I think some sort of GPS would be better). And, also, perhaps MH370 would have been found if the black box hadn't stopped "ping"-ing. Does the black box have its own battery/power supply? If so, can it be extended?

[Edited 2014-12-28 01:12:13]
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:09 am

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 242):
Now, I begin wondering since this tragedy could be pretty similar with AF447 case also perhaps with the missing MH that yet to be found, I wonder if FAA / world will make somehow an improvement device/safety protocol to prevent further tragedy. Turbulence is becoming scary lately now!

If the FAA did it, then we would have to hope that non-US carries pick it up as well. I guess, though, that those that fly into the US would be subjected to an FAA mandate. Please correct me if I am wrong on that.

As for the differences between this and MH370, we discussed it a lot earlier why some of us believe this is different.
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

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Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:12 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 244):
I don't have an answer to either of those questions. I don't know if such technology exists (yet). But if it was possible, I think it would make sense.

I agree, it does make sense. I am not a scientist or an engineer, but I would be all for it, if it is possible.

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 244):
I don't exactly know what a "ping" is.

As far as I know, it is some sort of noise, with a pitch that you would know it is a black box.

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 244):
Does the black box have its own battery/power supply?

I think the black box pings for 30 days. I am not sure if it can be extended.

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 244):
about some sort of signal being transmitted from the engines (installed by the manufacturer)

I can't remember anything about the engines specifically. You could be right, however.
 
namezero111111
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:05 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:13 am

With respect to a/c tracking, possibly something alike the 406Mhz satellite ELT system could be used to "ping" every X minutes.
But as with most solutions, the system would probably be easily overloaded in its current form.
 
LovesCoffee
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu May 31, 2012 4:07 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:14 am

Quoting TwoFourLeft (Reply 244):
Does the black box have its own battery/power supply?

Yes, batteries that will last for a minimum of 30 days (if they are maintained correctly).
 
laxboeingman
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:22 pm

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:15 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 248):
Yes, batteries that will last for a minimum of 30 days (if they are maintained correctly).

I thought they only lasted for 30 days and that's why MH370's pinging stopped around that time.
 
User avatar
Faro
Posts: 2028
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:08 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:16 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 175):

Dispatching snafu or is this kind of weather system impossible to forecast?


Faro
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB to SIN Missing Part 1

Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:18 am

Feeling very sad for the Indonesian people right now, it will be a real tragedy and just 2 days after the 10 year anniversary of the Indian Ocean Tsunami too.
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