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KarelXWB
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UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:36 pm

UA951 (BRU-IAD) just diverted to LHR because of the following reason:

Quote:
UA951 turned back because the pilot "was not happy with the deicing at Brussels" - Heathrow spokesman

Sources
http://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/549544848303591425
http://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/549559388110094336

Have you ever heard this before? If there was a problem with deicing, why was it not discovered before takeoff?

[Edited 2014-12-29 07:10:21]
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Aesma
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RE: UA951 Diverts Because Pilot Is Unhappy

Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:48 pm

Pretty alarming reason for a diversion !
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Polot
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RE: UA951 Diverts Because Pilot Is Unhappy

Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Have you ever heard this before? If there was a problem with deicing, why was it not discovered before takeoff?

Well if the deicing was inadequate/insufficient, for example, then the pilots likely wouldn't realize it until after take off unless they were sitting on the ground in BRU for awhile.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: UA951 Diverts Because Pilot Is Unhappy

Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:51 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 2):
then the pilots likely wouldn't realize it until after take off

True, but they were already flying above the United Kingdom. One would think the issue would have been discovered immediately after takeoff?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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longhauler
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RE: UA951 Diverts Because Pilot Is Unhappy

Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:57 pm

I am not sure what the issue is here, but I have been de-iced in Europe where it was improperly completed .... as a result, our airline SOP is that de-icing must be inspected by the Captain after any European de-icing. That may not be the case at UAL.

There is a possibility here that some contaminants remained, and the pilots were not notified until cruise. Granted ... the critical phase is over, namely takeoff, but ... if enough drag-causing contaminants remained, the Captain may have elected to land short and have it done properly before crossing the Atlantic.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
zrs70
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RE: UA951 Diverts Because Pilot Is Unhappy

Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:07 pm

Really bad thread title.
19 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2019
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 4):
I am not sure what the issue is here, but I have been de-iced in Europe where it was improperly completed .... as a result, our airline SOP is that de-icing must be inspected by the Captain after any European de-icing. That may not be the case at UAL.

First of all, I think that's a great idea, but not easy in practice.

Does the captain get in the bucket/pod and ride up to inspect the vertical/horizonal stab? It would be difficult to judge the tops of control surfaces without seeing them... I would imagine by the time that happens, they may go over the hold over time and have to be deiced again.  

But in all seriousness, I wonder what they actually inspect? You can't see much from the ground or the cockpit.
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KarelXWB
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:17 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 5):
Really bad thread title.

I changed the title.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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longhauler
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 6):
But in all seriousness, I wonder what they actually inspect? You can't see much from the ground or the cockpit.

What you are actually checking, is that the de-icing was symmetrical. It is not hard to see the top of the wing and you have a pretty good idea the quality of the job from there.

We have had two incidents in the last 12 months whereby the rear half of one of the wings was "forgotten". Both times picked up before take-off by the inspecting crew, and both times at the same station.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:27 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 8):
you have a pretty good idea the quality of the job from there.

From where? Do you open the DV window and get cold, or do you get some passengers to move so you can shine a torch out of the window?
When it is snowing hard it is difficult to finish deicing in time to get the aircraft in the air before the holdover time runs out. If the Capt insists on inspecting, it would never work.

Ground deicng is to clean the wing for take off. In theory all the deicing fluid leaves the wing during the take off roll. I am very interested what could have been OK for take off, but worth diverting for.
But I live in Europe and by Canadian rules know nothing about deicing  
 
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par13del
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:43 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 9):
I am very interested what could have been OK for take off, but worth diverting for.

Increased fuel flow to maintain cruising speed?
 
coachclass
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:45 pm

UAL website says that UA 951 (recovery segment) from LHR to IAD is cancelled due to a maintenance issue. I suspect that what was thought to be an icing problem was actually a mechanical problem, hence the cancellation of the recovery leg.
 
chrisa330
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 4:56 pm

Most likely an anti-ice problem vs deicing problems.
 
A346Dude
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:00 pm

I suspect the LHR spokesperson has no idea what they are talking about. I find it hard to imagine a de-icing problem that is discoverable and identifiable as such after takeoff.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
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Aesma
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 12):
Most likely an anti-ice problem vs deicing problems.

Good remark, that makes more sense.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mmo
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:07 pm

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 12):






Most likely an anti-ice problem vs deicing problems

Diverted to LHR as the result of anti-ice problem.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
yycramprat
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 15):

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 12):
Most likely an anti-ice problem vs deicing problems.

Good remark, that makes more sense.

Also could of been an "anti-icing problem" related to improper "deicing procedures".
 
kochamLOT
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:01 pm

No chances taken to ensure safety of flight and better late than never. People make it sound as if this was the Pilots innate desire to go back but that wouldnt make any sense - in any case, someone please post the full story when it becomes available
 
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fxramper
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:10 pm

This is report and thread is still vague. Were the pilots unhappy with the de-icing they got in BRU or was it the engine core fan de/anti-icing unit that needed to be replaced?
 
mjoelnir
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:16 pm

Aviation Herald


http://avherald.com/h?article=47f7c452&opt=0


The airline confirmed a mechanical issue
 
jayunited
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:16 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
UA951 (BRU-IAD) just diverted to LHR because of the following reason:

Quote:
UA951 turned back because the pilot "was not happy with the deicing at Brussels" - Heathrow spokesman

The Heathrow spokesman needs to understand the difference between deicing and anti-ice. UA951 did not divert do to a deicing problem it diverted because of an anti-ice problem.
 
flybhx764
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 12:02 am

Good it landed in LHR, better for passengers as they have chances to get to there destinations with so many UA flights. Passengers were probably put on UA 925 to IAD, UA 941 to EWR and UA 959 to ORD.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:19 am

At 277 passengers and 14 crew members, that flight must have been sold out. I suppose there would be a lot of traffic between the USA and European Union capitols, but still I am surprised at how full the flight is. Perhaps the holidays account for it.

In any event, I'm glad the passengers are all safe -- I wonder exactly what sort of mechanical issue the plane had with its de-icing system.
 
maxamuus
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 9):
or do you get some passengers to move

I had that very thing happen to me on a flight out of SLC. We were de-iced but holding for take off. I watched the snow continue to build on the wing. The first officer came back to the exit window to look out. I said i think we should go back to the pad, he said i agree. He headed back to the cockpit and we went back to deice. Kind made me chuckle that he agreed with my take on the situation.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:15 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 22):
I wonder exactly what sort of mechanical issue the plane had with its de-icing system.

Bleed air valve not operating properly.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
strfyr51
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:24 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
True, but they were already flying above the United Kingdom. One would think the issue would have been discovered immediately after takeoff?

it rhime ice was starting to build on the flight controls it would NOT have been noticed immediately. I might have been noticed at a sluggishnenss in the climb gradient or wallowing in a turn.
Inadequate deicing can result is extra weight poor aerodynamic performance. If the captain diverted? He had damn good reason to and should have..
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 7:44 am

A few years ago, I was on a United 757 from Chicago to Detroit. We deiced at the gate, and taxied out. While waiting in-line for takeoff, the Captain came over the PA and said the First Officer would be coming back to "inspect" the wings, ensuring additional deicing would not be required. Sure enough, he came back (I believe he had a flashlight), looked out at both wings and gave the all clear. Was this a very diligent crew or is it something with United?
Thanks.

[Edited 2014-12-29 23:45:22]
 
SKAirbus
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
UA951 turned back because the pilot "was not happy with the deicing at Brussels" - Heathrow spokesman

Sounds like a typical of case of chronic "let's bash Johnny Foreigner" syndrome, endemic to the British Isles.
Base: BRU
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:45 pm

Flight diverted due to a Right Engine Anti-Ice Valve stuck in closed position. It is a prerequisite for ETOPS flight activities, as well as flight into known/forecasted icing conditions.

Flight diverted to LHR (UA MX Base) for repairs. Crew timed out. Flight will reposition as 2195 / 30DEC.
 
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longhauler
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Tue Dec 30, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 9):
From where? Do you open the DV window and get cold, or do you get some passengers to move so you can shine a torch out of the window?

Normally, what I do is open the rear galley door and look at the wing from behind. I say again though.... the big issue was assymetrical de-icing. One wing being de-iced, the other "forgotten". I can not see the wings from where I sit, I must move.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 9):
When it is snowing hard it is difficult to finish deicing in time to get the aircraft in the air before the holdover time runs out. If the Capt insists on inspecting, it would never work.

I am not sure where you fly, nor what de-icing fluids you use. But in heavy snow here, Hold Over Times are usually around 45 minutes to an hour.

And ... it is Canadian LAW, that if a passenger, a flight attendant or another aircraft mentions the possibility of snow on the wings, the Captain MUST personally inspect the wing, and MUST answer the passenger or flight attendant's concerns. This is a result of the "Dryden Accident". It doesn't normally take more than 5 or so minutes.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 9):
But I live in Europe and by Canadian rules know nothing about deicing

Your words, not mine. AC (not all of Canada's airlines) has as an SOP, under certain conditions, in certain overseas stations, must manually inspect the wing after de-icing. It's one of the reasons AC has never (touching wood here) had a ground icing accident, in 75 plus years of flying.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
flybhx764
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:14 am

Went back to IAD on 30/12/2014 as UA 2198, had a late departure from LHR at 5.09pm

Aircraft: Boeing 777-200 aircraft #2480
Where is this aircraft coming from? Brussels, Belgium (BRU), Flight 951
 
HPRamper
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:23 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):
I am not sure where you fly, nor what de-icing fluids you use. But in heavy snow here, Hold Over Times are usually around 45 minutes to an hour.

Holdover times are more affected by air temperature than snowfall amount. I've been in situations where the holdover time was barely over ten minutes. I've also seen cold weather incidents where the holdover time was so short, a crew had to apply de/anti-ice literally at the end of the runway - with tower permission of course.
 
strfyr51
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:39 am

Quoting Capt.Fantastic (Reply 26):
A few years ago, I was on a United 757 from Chicago to Detroit. We deiced at the gate, and taxied out. While waiting in-line for takeoff, the Captain came over the PA and said the First Officer would be coming back to "inspect" the wings, ensuring additional deicing would not be required. Sure enough, he came back (I believe he had a flashlight), looked out at both wings and gave the all clear. Was this a very diligent crew or is it something with United? Thanks.

Nothing New, that was a good crew doing what they're supposed to do.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:57 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):
I am not sure where you fly, nor what de-icing fluids you use. But in heavy snow here, Hold Over Times are usually around 45 minutes to an hour.

Holdover times are more affected by air temperature than snowfall amount. I've been in situations where the holdover time was barely over ten minutes. I've also seen cold weather incidents where the holdover time was so short, a crew had to apply de/anti-ice literally at the end of the runway - with tower permission of course.

Holdover times are affected just as much by the type and intensity of precipitation as they are by temperature.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:00 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):
I am not sure where you fly, nor what de-icing fluids you use. But in heavy snow here, Hold Over Times are usually around 45 minutes to an hour.

Holdover times are more affected by air temperature than snowfall amount. I've been in situations where the holdover time was barely over ten minutes. I've also seen cold weather incidents where the holdover time was so short, a crew had to apply de/anti-ice literally at the end of the runway - with tower permission of course.

Holdover times are affected just as much by the type and intensity of precipitation as they are by temperature. For example for one type of fluid at temps of -14 to -29 and very light snow the holdover time is 40-50 mins. With moderate snow it's 15-30 mins.
 
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longhauler
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:11 pm

Yes, most of us have access to the same holdover charts, for the same fluids.

That is the main reason the process wont start (right from leaving the gate), unless there is a reasonable assurance that the taxi time from the De-icing Facility to the runway will not exceed hold-over times for the existing fluids/conditions. It has been over 10 years for me personally where I have had to de-ice a second time because HOTs were exceeded and there was indication that the first de-icing was no longer sufficient.

But .... if the comments above are accurate, this is not a de-icing issue, but an on board maintenance issue with regard to the anti-icing system of the aircraft.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:29 pm

As a controller, I loved the de-icing days because it meant that we were exempt from every ATC delay program in effect. No EDCT, no ESP, no MIT. Everyone nose-wheeled.

We were sometimes "officially" in de-icing mode for a while after we actually quit de-icing....just to savor the efficiency!
 
copter808
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RE: UA951 Diverts Due To Deicing Issue

Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 13):
I suspect the LHR spokesperson has no idea what they are talking about. I find it hard to imagine a de-icing problem that is discoverable and identifiable as such after takeoff.
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 24):
Bleed air valve not operating properly.

Several years ago I was waiting for a CO flight departing IAH. There was a delay because of a bleed air problem (anti-ice). Now I know damned well what bleed air is and how it's used for anti-icing, but after listening to the gate agent explain the problem I was as confused as the rest of the passengers!

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