tonytifao
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:30 am

They are reporting the plane is upside down!
 
nwadeicer
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:31 am

tonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1037 posts, RR: 0
Reply 149, posted Tue Dec 30 2014 17:26:02 your local time (51 secs ago) and read 3 times:

Wreckage found using sonars! I wonder if it's all in one piece or broken apart!

[/quote]


Don't know! I'm sure we'll find out soon! Then we'll know!
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DocLightning
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 149):
Wreckage found using sonars! I wonder if it's all in one piece or broken apart!

Even if it hit the water in one piece, I would be amazed if the fuselage head together under such loads.
-Doc Lightning-

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Brewfangrb
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:39 am

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 141):
Somehow I don't think you are...This is exactly the kind of defensive response that CRM was designed to deal with...a PIC who insists that they have nothing to learn from subordinates, that the PIC is the smartest man in the room, and that he should never be questioned, even in emergencies. It will indeed be interesting to learn what CRM issues arise from the analysis of this truly tragic accident.

First, I don't think maxpower was "defensive" at all in his response. He was merely pointing out how the pilots' (not pilot's) attention is at saving the plane and THOSE passengers' lives. Again, as pointed out elsewhere, radioing ATC does nothing at all to help them save the plane. Communicating a mayday or emergency to ATC is only necessary once some degree of control has been regained and they need to clear everything to land or get help on diverting.

As far as prior comments about the FDR and CVR and how they exist to provide data to help prevent future crashes, the issue there is those tools are passive--they automatically record everything without the pilots' need to do anything. The first goal of the communication--after aviating and navigating--is provide support for that aircraft, NOT to help prevent future crashes.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:43 am

Has the depth of the sonar-found wreckage been reported?
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:49 am

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 141):
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 119):
I'm trying to keep a straight face about this...when I'm in command of my A320 my immediate and only concern is the safety of MY flight and I'm going to do everything that my 25,000 hours and 40 years of flying has to offer to the very last second of my existence. There is no higher priority than that. Grabbing the microphone and giving the controller a running commentary about the emergency is the most useless act I can think of and an criminal squandering of resources. Once the situation is under control, then it's appropriate of course. I do think you have been watching too many movies. "Dive Bomber" comes to mind, where Fred Mac Murray writes down his last thoughts about the oxygen system freezing up instead of flying the airplane first and descending to a lower altitude where can can breath. After the crash, they discover his note and he has now saved the lives of future naval aviators! That's Hollywood for you...

But I'm open to any other safety suggestions you may have. Really!


Somehow I don't think you are...This is exactly the kind of defensive response that CRM was designed to deal with...a PIC who insists that they have nothing to learn from subordinates, that the PIC is the smartest man in the room, and that he should never be questioned, even in emergencies. It will indeed be interesting to learn what CRM issues arise from the analysis of this truly tragic accident.

Sorry, but if by CRM you mean taking seriously suggestions from non-aviation professionals including business owners, then guilty as charged. When you actually gain some aviation experience other than the internet, books or movies your opinion would be most welcome. Really!

Russ Farris

Former check airman, Boeing 727 ,737 and Fokker F-28. Involved in writing CRM sections of F-28 Flight Operation Manual 1993-94. Current A319/320/321 captain. Learned CRM from watching John Wayne bitch slap Robert Stack in "The High and The Mighty".

[Edited 2014-12-30 20:51:45]

[Edited 2014-12-30 20:58:05]
 
BestWestern
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:54 am

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 141):

In a complex deterioration of aircraft safety happening over seconds, the captain better be the know it all in the room. That is what pilots are paid for.

I'm glad that pilots have nothing to learn on stall recovery from teenagers and self appointed knowitalls who think they know the answer from their comfort of their bedroom. They have trained for it. He was right to pour cold water on the irrational responses, and others should learn from that experience.

The Google generation think they know everything.
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airtechy
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:04 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 156):
I'm glad that pilots have nothing to learn on stall recovery from teenagers and self appointed knowitalls who think they know the answer from their comfort of their bedroom. They have trained for it

Interesting. Once the cause of the AF447 crash was known, the first thing the pilots complained about was..."we were not trained for high altitude stalls".
 
tonytifao
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:11 am

They have mentioned that one of the six bodies found is from a flight attendant.

If only six bodies have been found some what distant from the others, could the plane have broken apart mid air and one of the FAs were not securely seated, causing her to be blown out during the breakup
 
liftsifter
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:24 am

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 158):
If only six bodies have been found some what distant from the others, could the plane have broken apart mid air and one of the FAs were not securely seated, causing her to be blown out during the breakup

One point about this: the bodies would be heavily mutilated, especially with clothing. Most would be completely stripped of clothing and would have broken bones and bruising.
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SimonDanger
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:29 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 155):


Sorry, but if by CRM you mean taking seriously suggestions from non-aviation professionals including business owners, then guilty as charged. When you actually gain some aviation experience other than the internet, books or movies your opinion would be most welcome. Really!

Russ Farris
.



I openly stated I was not a pilot, and merely questioned why communications wasn't a higher priority, and for this high crime I am to be ridiculed by a guy I don't know in a field that I love and admire. I build furniture out of aircraft parts, I paint pictures of aircraft, and i have flown many planes with my father and friends. I talk enthusiastically about flying to my 19 y.o. son, who always asks what it would be like to be a pilot and, up until this very night, I have never sought to dissuade him from that dream. But tonight I want to thank Russ for his convincing argument that maybe it's just not that great a place to work anymore. And with that I'll say good night.
 
aklrno
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:39 am

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 158):
If only six bodies have been found some what distant from the others, could the plane have broken apart mid air and one of the FAs were not securely seated, causing her to be blown out during the breakup

It is a meaningless data point. It's been three days since the crash and floating bodies and debris have been subject to wind and currents in bad weather at sea. Stuff moves.

What's more interesting is debris on the sea floor that is less effected by currents. Even some of that smaller stuff can move.
 
CyberEntomology
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:43 am

Given the relative lack of debris and what has been found, I'm starting to wonder if a possible scenario is that the plane ditched more or less intact, An exit door was able to be opened, the 40 or so people whose bodies were recovered got on the liferaft/slide which was recovered, and it capsized/got swamped in heavy seas , and those aboard perished, and they weren't able to evac anyone else from the a/c before it was also swamped and sank to the bottom.
 
WingedMigrator
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:57 am

Quoting tonytifao (Reply 150):
They are reporting the plane is upside down!

That is baffling. For an underwater object to look remotely like a plane, there must have been a somewhat controlled ditching. I can't think of any other scenario that wouldn't shred the airframe to pieces. Unless, as is likely, this report is incorrect; they often are this early in the investigation.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:12 am

Quoting CyberEntomology (Reply 162):
An exit door was able to be opened, the 40 or so people whose bodies were recovered got on the liferaft/slide which was recovered,

If that happened the found bodies would have had lifejackets... correct me if I am wrong but that is not the case.

TRB
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Miami
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:21 am

Search teams have found a seventh body believed to be from AirAsia flight QZ8501, an Indonesian official said.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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Miami
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:22 am

This is according to CNN

"Families of people aboard AirAsia Flight QZ8501 have been briefed by officials that sonar technology has "spotted the plane on sea floor," a relative of some of the passengers told CNN on Wednesday. The man, who said he lost seven relatives and friends on the flight, told CNN that families are still wanting and expecting regular and full updates from authorities."
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:22 am

http://www.cobham.com/about-cobham/m...-services/composite-cylinders.aspx

That bottle is definitely for inflating the slide/raft.
 
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Miami
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:29 am

1 man out of 7 bodies recovered was wearing a life jacket.

I really hope there was a chance for survival..   
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Web500sjc
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:37 am

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 160):
I openly stated I was not a pilot, and merely questioned why communications wasn't a higher priority, and for this high crime I am to be ridiculed by a guy I don't know in a field that I love and admire. I build furniture out of aircraft parts, I paint pictures of aircraft, and i have flown many planes with my father and friends. I talk enthusiastically about flying to my 19 y.o. son, who always asks what it would be like to be a pilot and, up until this very night, I have never sought to dissuade him from that dream. But tonight I want to thank Russ for his convincing argument that maybe it's just not that great a place to work anymore. And with that I'll say good night.

You have to realize that there have been many posts on the forum (in all the accident threads) asking the same question, and over time the questions start to sound like statements saying "pilots are doing it wrong" or "jeez the airplane has already crashed, why not tell us what is going on so we don't have to wait and find the airplane and piece together the accident." that would be in addition to the accident reports which lost always pins some blame on the pilot. Although there are many betrays to do things, you are unlikely to get through to people by point out things that are wrong. I think you were just the straw that broke Russ' back on this matter.

Maybe we should have a running point for everyone to understand--

A pilot is not worried about finding the airplane, he or she is not worried about accident investigation, not worried about tomorrows flight or the next flight - He or she is worried about preventing the accident investigation all together. In an emergency the pilots sole responsibility is returning all the souls onboard the aircraft to the ground in a safe manner. That is why pilots Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

[Edited 2014-12-30 22:43:53]
Boiler Up!
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:37 am

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 155):

Considering that the vast majority of airline accidents are caused by experienced, highly trained, and skilled pilots, perhaps the occasional outside of the cockpit perspective isn't a bad thing.

For example, the concepts of CRM aren't unique to the cockpit.
What the...?
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:40 am

Quote from SimonDanger

I openly stated I was not a pilot, and merely questioned why communications wasn't a higher priority, and for this high crime I am to be ridiculed by a guy I don't know in a field that I love and admire. I build furniture out of aircraft parts, I paint pictures of aircraft, and i have flown many planes with my father and friends. I talk enthusiastically about flying to my 19 y.o. son, who always asks what it would be like to be a pilot and, up until this very night, I have never sought to dissuade him from that dream. But tonight I want to thank Russ for his convincing argument that maybe it's just not that great a place to work anymore. And with that I'll say good night.

Well, many of the posters were trying to explain to you why we concentrate on flying the airplane first, trying to fix the problem and then telling ATC when we have time. This has been emergency protocol for many decades, long before CRM. Everything was good until you lumped me with the Captain Queeg types that never listens to his crew. Guess that got my back up some since I was involved in CRM teaching 20 years ago. Sorry I got defensive, please don't use this as an excuse to discourage your son from flying. I have a 1957 Cessna 172 I restored myself, I would be honored to take him up, here in Charlotte. And I'm very curious about the furniture you make from aircraft parts!

Russ Farris

[Edited 2014-12-30 22:50:05]

[Edited 2014-12-30 23:21:09]
 
Dehowie
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:06 am

Good points Russ,
I think any inputs pilots make onto forums frequently get lost in the barrage of statements by people with no knowledge, little knowledge of real flying.
Flying flight sim 2004 or X-plane gives you a view of about 5% of a real pilots job.
Yet many because they can take off or land a sim get an inflated opinion of how "easy" the job is yet they have zero idea about what really happens.
Flying the aircraft although the most important part is still only a part of the role.
I said above storms above are very different in Asia and tropics compared to mid latitudes and people talking about micro bursts etc just have not seen these storms etc to know you dont get them there..nor the intense turbulence that can pull aircraft apart.
But hey what would we know we only spend a life out in the weather seeing feeling and experiencing it all.
From a CRM viewpoint the Captain is THE Captain for a reason and fortunately the company i work at has most FO's with more experience than the Captain on this flight.
Hell 2000 hours here wont get you a job in a bottle shop let alone an A-320..unless your a cadet in some airlines.
Experience counts.
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copter808
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:17 am

Quoting SimonDanger (Reply 18):
If you are the only one in the car this makes perfect sense, but in at 32,000 ft. there is more time to do both, and you would have the resources of another pilot or two to allocate those resourses to. I truely get that a life-threatening emergency tends to focus one's mind on the problem at hand, but it just seems that an alert can be as direct and efficient as "emergency...loss of engines...attempting restart..." for example.

This has kinda been discussed to DEATH. Is there ANY pilot online here who would place COMMUNICATING ahead of regaining aircraft control. I, for one, would not!!! NEVER quit flyin' (or attempting to regain control) until you have become a " smoking hole" in the ground! Same principle works in driving your car as well.

If the wings fall off, you are likely going to die regardless of what you do, but if you quit flyin', you WILL die!! If I'm riding in the back, I want those guys up front to concentrate on flying first.

Finally, if they had issued a distress call, very little would have changed. They likely would not have known their EXACT location or point of impact anyway. (If I'm attempting a distress call, I'm NOT going to be reading off and repeating my exact position) I would spend my time attempting to regain control! In my mind, one of the greatest examples of CRM is the UA Sioux City DC-10 crash. Although my memory is a bit rusty, I don't recall much outside communication PRIOR to regaining control. The rest is history!
 
maxpower1954
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:17 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 170):
Considering that the vast majority of airline accidents are caused by experienced, highly trained, and skilled pilots, perhaps the occasional outside of the cockpit perspective isn't a bad thing.

For example, the concepts of CRM aren't unique to the cockpit.

Very true Joe, of course I would expect input from some similar field - maritime, railroads ect as opposed to a Girl Scout Troop. And actually CRM originated in aviation and has moved on to other fields, nuclear power plants and medicine, meeting resistance from crusty old doctors (does that sound familiar?)

When CRM started in the early 90s almost all the old guys really tried to change. They would begin a trip with "Please bring it to my attention if you see something you don't like" More than a few of them would come up with some excuse why they missed the top of descent or forgot to retract the speed brake. My favorite - told at every airline - was the captain who was late calling for the gear on landing. When his F/O tactfully asked if he wanted the gear, the old bastard barked "When I want the GD gear down I'll ask for it - gear down!"

The reality was in my career, which was already 15 years old by the time CRM started I encountered very few of the despotic types of captains that everyone who didn't live through that era thinks they ALL were. Less than five out of the close to 800 I flew with. All the good, smart captains operated the way we do today decades before it became an integrated part of our training.
 
BruceSmith
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:48 am

I think we may have erred too far in the car analogy. A car normally has three control inputs, one setting and three instruments, none of which can be rebooted during the driving process. A single head can manage those in entirety, but I still don't see the passenger dialing 911 in the seconds it takes for the car to hit the ice, spin and end up in the snowbank.

In steady, level flight with autopilot working, one person can maintain that state. However that would not be the case in an emergency situation where the plane is undergoing uncontrolled climb/dive/roll etc, the PF would be trying to regain physical control of the aircraft, while the PNF is either searching the QRH and instruments for what is wrong, resetting or disconnecting equipment and assisting the PF by removing what workload he can. He must also be instantly ready to take control from the PF if the PF is incapacitated or the PNF knows how to recover the plane and the PF is not taking advice.

Even with all the automation, envelope protection and so forth, managing one of these magnificent flying machines when it goes pear-shaped is not a one man job, it might even be argued it isn't a two man job as well.
 
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lugie
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:25 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 154):
Has the depth of the sonar-found wreckage been reported?

Reported to be on the ground of the sea which is about 25-30 meters deep in that area.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:29 am

Indonesia Says Sonar Image May Show Body of AirAsia Plane:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/indonesi...w-body-of-airasia-plane-1419996290

Indonesia says one body from AirAsia plane was wearing life jacket

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...plane-jacket-idUSKBN0K90A920141231

The life jacket is very interesting.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
zippy
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:35 am

Quoting BruceSmith (Reply 175):
Quoting BruceSmith (Reply 175):

I think we may have erred too far in the car analogy. A car normally has three control inputs, one setting and three instruments, none of which can be rebooted during the driving process. A single head can manage those in entirety, but I still don't see the passenger dialing 911 in the seconds it takes for the car to hit the ice, spin and end up in the snowbank.

In steady, level flight with autopilot working, one person can maintain that state. However that would not be the case in an emergency situation where the plane is undergoing uncontrolled climb/dive/roll etc, the PF would be trying to regain physical control of the aircraft, while the PNF is either searching the QRH and instruments for what is wrong, resetting or disconnecting equipment and assisting the PF by removing what workload he can. He must also be instantly ready to take control from the PF if the PF is incapacitated or the PNF knows how to recover the plane and the PF is not taking advice.

Even with all the automation, envelope protection and so forth, managing one of these magnificent flying machines when it goes pear-shaped is not a one man job, it might even be argued it isn't a two man job as well.

I think the analogy is apt.

I'd count four control inputs: steering, throttle, brake, gear configuration (which can branch out into all sorts of things like tuning regenerative braking, clutch, shifter, etc). A passenger should be able to reset the controls (toggle the ignition switch, pull a fuse, etc) while driving. Certainly it's not a particularly safe thing to do at random, but it is doable. Unfortunately with the advent of electronically controlled inputs, there's not generally a standardized way to actually achieve a reboot.

Think back to the uncontrolled acceleration fiasco Toyota was having in the US. There were at least a few people who felt they couldn't slow their car down and were on the phone with 911 getting instructions on how to diagnose runaway cars. In one instance a California state police officer died when he failed to regain control of his car over a prolonged period of time. Clearly aviating (driving) should have been the first priority (and it was), but a lack of training came into play when he couldn't turn off the motor. Having a trained passenger to say "hold this button down for this long to turn off the engine" could have saved a life. Calling 911 was a good last resort to potentially clear traffic, but ultimately a futile effort.
 
liquidair
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:42 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 168):

Just read this on Reuters. Indeed, the question of what happened is baffling... The article didn't mention however if the life jacket was inflated or not...

That would be interesting to find out.

In my humble opinion, I think the evidence is starting to point towards an almost controlled ditching- yes, it's circumstantial... But an almost intact fuselage, albeit inverted... The life jacket... The report of the four bodies floating but holding hands...

All this combined with the last transponder return at FL320, after a rapid ascent and descent, with severe decaying airspeed.

Something very rapid and sudden either developed (weather) or happened (explosion- not necessarily terrorist... Maybe cargo, or an oxygen bottle... Could something like that take out some flight controls and transponder?)-

and I've got the feeling the pilots will be lauded when we finally find out what happened.

[Edited 2014-12-31 00:44:37]
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
Pihero
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:47 am

About communicating in emergency :
I totally agree with all the pilots and knowledgeable posters : Fly the aircraft first, get out of danger, re-establish a stable flight....then - only then - tell ATC and coordinate with them on your intentions.
That's very basic airmanship.
To go a bit further, declaring an emergency will trigger a succession of really unwanted exchanges:
- the first ATC would say is " Sqawk XXXX"
- In the same message, ATC will ask the - for them - two most *pertinent* questions : How many souls on board ? What endurance ?
- Then and only then : What are your intentions ?

The above in a radar controlled area ; otherwise : What's your position ?

Can you cope with all that while you and your copilot have your hands full trying to fly out of danger ?
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asetiadi
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:56 am

Latest Report:

1. Our local TV One news stated : all of the 6 dead bodies are fully intact with clothes on. (2 of them being flown to Surabaya as we speaking now)

2. Many luggages have been found, in locked condition.

KRI Bung Tomo has evacuated six bodies of the passengers and crew AirAsia QZ8501. 3 Among them have been identified. Of the six bodies, the two have been sent to Pangkalan Bun. 4 Others still are in KRI Bung Tomo,
namely:
1. Tegalsari Lutfiah biological origin, Surabaya
2. Khairunisa Haidar Fauzi (22), stewardess
3. Kevin Alexander
4. Yet unidentified

Soelistyo ensure conditions for the discovery of seven bodies were still intact. The evacuation process constraints currently in the field due to the weather was still bad and erratic.

Questioning the news of passenger found alive, he has not been able to ensure the accuracy. "That's the info but not accurate," he added. He also confirmed it has not found the hull in the water.

In Surabaya my town, all new years party are being canceled / limited to small party, just now to show some support.
 
copter808
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:11 am

Quoting michi (Reply 87):
This radar is only detecting water in the line of sight.

Wondered how long before someone would mention this! Radar doesn't show the thunderstorm or turbulence--just the water. From this we can usually get a pretty good idea of the intensity of the storm though.

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 155):
Learned CRM from watching John Wayne bitch slap Robert Stack in "The High and The Mighty".

Great response!!!!! Hey, that was just Wayne's form of CRM!

Quoting dehowie (Reply 172):
Flying flight sim 2004 or X-plane gives you a view of about 5% of a real pilots job.
Yet many because they can take off or land a sim get an inflated opinion of how "easy" the job is yet they have zero idea about what really happens.

One of the things I loved about the FS programs is how I could successfully land pretty much anywhere on the airport, so long as my vertical speed was relatively low. Off runway landings don't work so well in the real aircraft! (Althoughwe could do it just fine in the helicopters.)
 
wjcandee
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 168):
1 man out of 7 bodies recovered was wearing a life jacket.

Until I see a picture of it, or it is confirmed by multiple sources, I think it best to give that the same weight that we give all reports, after almost all accidents that:

(1) The plane landed safely somewhere.
(2) Someone saw the plane "on fire".
(3) Someone saw the faces of the passengers in the windows.
(4) That survivors were found.

All of these happen with great frequency, and are usually foibles of the fact that humans do the reporting.

If true, it's interesting. But it doesn't mean much in isolation. And we should have plenty of information from the mechanical witnesses soon enough such that we don't need to speculate in the interim.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:40 am

One thing that is for sure..... The CVR will certainly tell us if it was a controlled ditching. Life raft with the oxygen bottle, 4 passengers found holding hands, a passenger with a life jacket on...... Very odd.... Aircraft possibly upside down, possibly intact.

Wouldn't the life raft send emergency signals, and does it have a flashing light if it was inflated?

[Edited 2014-12-31 03:41:57]
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BestWestern
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:57 am

Bodies holding hands could just be bodies massed together. Remember the first report of a body waving?

Body wearing life jacket could be nothing more than orange t shirt.

We should also be conscious of death by Google translate of the reports.
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enzo011
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:12 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 184):
One thing that is for sure..... The CVR will certainly tell us if it was a controlled ditching. Life raft with the oxygen bottle, 4 passengers found holding hands, a passenger with a life jacket on...... Very odd.... Aircraft possibly upside down, possibly intact.

Wouldn't the life raft send emergency signals, and does it have a flashing light if it was inflated?

Has it been confirmed that they found bodies holding hands? I thoughts this was in the same reports or at the same time as the 40 bodies recovered, yet today we only have 6 confirmed bodies that have been recovered as of now.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 184):
Life raft with the oxygen bottle,

That bottle is part of the raft/slide inflation system, not an oxygen bottle.

IIRC, they reported that the raft/slide had not been inflated.

They probably know that because the bottle has not been discharged?
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:16 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 185):
Body wearing life jacket could be nothing
more than orange t shirt.

Yeah your assumptions seems to be correct.

According to the Guardian the body was found near a life west but it was not actually wearing one:

Quoting The Guardian:
Tatang Zaenudin, an official with Indonesia’s search and rescue agency, Basarnas, said
one of the bodies was wearing a life jacket, but the agency later said the corpse was
found near a life jacket but was not wearing one. Basarnas has not explained the discrepancy
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LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:17 pm

There was conflicting information about whether any parts of the plane had been located underwater.

One search official told CNN that he believes sonar equipment has detected wreckage from the plane at the bottom of the sea.

"I think that that's the case," said Muhammad Hernanto, the head of search and rescue for the city of Surabaya, where Flight 8501 began its journey on Sunday. He was dialing back earlier comments he made to CNN in which he said the sonar equipment had located wreckage from the plane.

Indonesia's national search and rescue chief said the body of the aircraft hasn't yet been discovered.

"Until now, we haven't found the plane," Bambang Soelistyo said, according to Indonesia's national news agency Antara. "We've only found seven bodies to this day."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/30/world/...a/airasia-missing-plane/index.html
 
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garpd
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:24 pm

I've been reading reports about bodies found holding hands and one even with a life vest on. The former suggests they survived whatever impact their was with the water, the latter suggests those on board knew something was wrong.

If a passenger has enough time to put on a life vest, there should have been time for one of the pilots to at least shout out a simple mayday.

This is all very confusing.
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LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:37 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 190):
I've been reading reports about bodies found holding hands and one even with a life vest on. The former suggests they survived whatever impact their was with the water, the latter suggests those on board knew something was wrong.

If a passenger has enough time to put on a life vest, there should have been time for one of the pilots to at least shout out a simple mayday.

This is all very confusing.

Vest story is apparently false. Body was near a vest, not wearing a vest.

Holding hands story sounds odd and is probably not true.

No, they still wouldn't have wasted time with the radio. There is no help coming out of the radio.
 
cpqi
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:38 pm

Some facts as I see them

The pilot requested a deviation due to weather and this was granted
As shown in a diagram in this thread the main storm cells were already behind
The pilot requests an altitude change
Altitude changes are not usually a way to escape storm cells as these reach heights above the max. ceiling
The altitude change was not granted
The pilot climbed anyway and appears to have lost airspeed in doing so (to 353 knts)

Key question is why the climb given it wasn't authorized ? Pilots can take whatever action is necessary to protect their plane, so why did he take this one.
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asetiadi
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:40 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 190):

I've been reading reports about bodies found holding hands and one even with a life vest on. The former suggests they survived whatever impact their was with the water, the latter suggests those on board knew something was wrong.

yes the report is confirmed by SAR rescue team. Judging by the condition of the bodies and not to mention, their clothes were intact as well their bodies, it suggests that the plane somehow managed to crash landed and some people were alive during that time until the ocean took them out. So sad. There's no way the plane broke up in the air. Those passengers really knew what's going on. I'm hoping somebody out there still alive.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting cpqi (Reply 192):

Key question is why the climb given it wasn't authorized ? Pilots can take whatever action is necessary to protect their plane, so why did he take this one.

FL340 was granted.

It is not clear if the pilot heard the clearance, because a response was not heard.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:50 pm

I don't find the "holding hands" story believable.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:51 pm

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 193):
it suggests that the plane somehow managed to crash landed and some people were alive during that time until the ocean took them out.

I find that very unlikely and have seen nothing to support the idea.
 
asetiadi
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:57 pm

Here's eyewitness report:

I translated it to english:

Jakarta - bang heard by Grace (44), fishermen who sail around the island Senggaro apparently linked with other witnesses. Is Hartono (36) are also fishermen and see the moments of AirAsia QZ8501 disappeared. Just like Grace, Hartono fishing on Sunday (28/12) gray. The weather was very bad according to the narrative Hartono who sail in Tanjung Pandan. "The waves are very high. I do not dare to continue to choose to go to sea and islands.

During sunrise time, I saw a plane flying low headed towards Tanjung Puting , "said Hartono on a dock in the port of Commander North, Kumai, Central Kalimantan, on Wednesday (12/31/2014). Not surprisingly, for Hartono in this area has a lot of passing aircraft. Although that time he saw the plane fly lower than usual. "A little odd, the plane looked banking to the left, After that the plane turned left into the sea," he added.

In fact, the plane usually passing straight. The plane had disappeared into the fog and I do not see anymore," said the father of three children.

source:
http://news.detik.com/read/2014/12/3...uk-ke-dalam-kabut-tebal?n991101605
 
asetiadi
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:00 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 196):
I find that very unlikely and have seen nothing to support the idea.

source: (many of them, here's one of them http://nationalgeographic.co.id/beri...a-jenazah-yang-bergandengan-tangan


Copilot C130 Hercules aircraft from Halim Air Base, Lieutenant Airmen Tri Wibowo said she saw about eight bodies of humans adrift in Karimata Strait on Tuesday (30/12). Three of the eight bodies, Tri said, holding hands with each other. "There are seven to eight people. Three (of them) again holding hands," said Tri in the cockpit of the aircraft in the traverse southern territorial waters of Borneo. In addition to the human body, Tri also see some other object, such as luggage bags, buoys, and aircraft debris allegedly belonging to AirAsia QZ8501. According to Tri, the information has been conveyed to him KRI Budi Utomo involved in the evaluation process. "There suitcases, and there are people like wearing a life jacket. We have already done the evacuation process," he said. Previously reported, to check the truth about the sighting objects AirAsia aircraft allegedly belonging QZ8501, Commander of Operations Rear Admiral Halim Air Base Dwi Putranto along Basarnas team checked by using a helicopter to Karimata Strait, precisely around the waters of the Gulf Air Hitam, Ketapang, West Kalimantan, Tuesday (30/12) afternoon. Dwi Iskandar departing from the airport, Pangkalan Bun around 13:00. Before you board the plane, Dwi said that it should check directly to the site to ensure that the information he received from the C130 Hercules aircraft crew.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 5

Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:01 pm

Quoting asetiadi (Reply 197):
Here's eyewitness report:

Well, we hear all sorts of such reports that turn out later to be wrong.

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