The last I heard was that DL was being forced out of DAL as of January 5, 2015. Delta.com still publishes schedules beyond January 5. Does anyone know if they are still leaving or are they staying?

I'm curious about this too.

If they're being forced out and Delta's still offering reservations, there's going to be a huge problem.

UA added several additional DAL-IAH flights to block DL but UA retrieved already. So DL is in good shape for now unless UA plays the same trick again.

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 3): So DL is in good shape for now unless UA plays the same trick again.

Just a friendly reminder that UA has the rights to the gate and has first priority on usage. It is not common use, they are UA gates, so yes UA can change the schedule at any time they feel they want too and it would not be 'trickery' it would be BUSINESS.

DL is not even using a UA gate. UA lets WN use gate 15 when it is free. DL is using WN gate 9. UA ops can be so bad that I have seen two UA RJs at both their gates a few times in the past few months. I have also used both gates 15 and 17 to board UA flights. Right now UA is letting DL use one of their three ticket counters and DL is using UA breakroom as their back office. Currently DL and UA use the same ground people from American Eagle and we have waited as they scramble from gate 9 down to the UA gets to get our flights ready. There was no way they could have get 12 UA flight out with the staff they have. They have a hard time getting the 7 UA flights out as it is now. One morning there was NOT ONE UA rep there. The ExpresJet people were calling their offices. No one at the gate knew what was going on and not a single UA rep came util it was departure time. They got held up pushing the Delta 717. I have no idea what will happed after Jan 5 but I will look on my next flight.

Looks like DL is still using Southwest's gate 9. Eventually there won't be room for them in the Southwest gates, I wonder what will happen then?

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 6): Looks like DL is still using Southwest's gate 9. Eventually there won't be room for them in the Southwest gates, I wonder what will happen then?

Any clue when that will be? Delta is selling tickets out of DAL until the end of 2015 (accepting booking til December currently). I'd assume WN will add more flights during the summer, but DL is already selling tickets for those months. Weird that this "lease" was extended with no mention to the public.

Knowing DL there was some sort of quiet quid pro quo. They rarely announce how they are doing things--they keep such issues closely held for obvious reasons.

Richard Anderson has said publicly on several occasions that DAL figured prominently in DL's plans.

Well here's the latest (nothing): http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2...arrier-at-dallas-love-field.html/.

Is there any chance ever UA will try another destination (I know DEN failed), like ORD, EWR or IAD out of DAL?

Quoting ORD+Boy+2" class="quote" target="_blank">ORD Boy 2 (Reply 10): Is there any chance ever UA will try another destination (I know DEN failed), like ORD, EWR or IAD out of DAL?

I think it would make business sense for them to but they seem to have no interest in DAL which is unfortunate. While WN serves all these markets, WN does not serve EWR, ORD or IAD from DAL so it would give them some differentiation at DAL.

I understand you can't because of the agreements in place, etc.. but I almost wish the 2 UA gates would just go to DL because DL had big plans for DAL.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 11): I think it would make business sense for them to but they seem to have no interest in DAL which is unfortunate. While WN serves all these markets, WN does not serve EWR, ORD or IAD from DAL so it would give them some differentiation at DAL.

I disagree, fully. United is very protective of their space at DAL... hence they "launched" 12 dailies to IAH to keep Delta out. Now, cooler heads have prevailed.
DEN failed on it's own, not because United doesn't like Love Field or some such nonsense.
I hope they expand as well, and maybe they will be able to. With the IAH flights doing so well, from what I can tell, maybe there's a market. But I'll leave it up to the intelligent people in the Sears Tower to figure out.
What I'd REALLY like is... mainline!!! And a United Club.  

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 12): I disagree, fully. United is very protective of their space at DAL... hence they "launched" 12 dailies to IAH to keep Delta out. Now, cooler heads have prevailed. DEN failed on it's own, not because United doesn't like Love Field or some such nonsense. I hope they expand as well, and maybe they will be able to. With the IAH flights doing so well, from what I can tell, maybe there's a market. But I'll leave it up to the intelligent people in the Sears Tower to figure out. What I'd REALLY like is... mainline!!! And a United Club.

You say you disagree fully and then you mention wanting them to expand which is what I said. So what don't you agree with? That they should expand, that they have no interest, or me saying that in my perfect world the gates would go to DL since I think the gates would go to better use considering Delta had a jam packed schedule planned. Keep in mind, you didn't quote the latter so I assume it isn't that.

Quoting ORD+Boy+2" class="quote" target="_blank">ORD Boy 2 (Reply 10): Is there any chance ever UA will try another destination (I know DEN failed), like ORD, EWR or IAD out of DAL?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 12): I disagree, fully. United is very protective of their space at DAL... hence they "launched" 12 dailies to IAH to keep Delta out. Now, cooler heads have prevailed. DEN failed on it's own, not because United doesn't like Love Field or some such nonsense. I hope they expand as well, and maybe they will be able to. With the IAH flights doing so well, from what I can tell, maybe there's a market. But I'll leave it up to the intelligent people in the Sears Tower to figure out. What I'd REALLY like is... mainline!!! And a United Club.

United has a plan for DAL, but what that exactly looks like only the people in the Sears Tower know. Here is information I have found out in the past few months. UA has spent some serious money setting up the new DAL and all the systems in place are mainline station systems. Everything in their back end system is brand new. Everything!!! (All computers at gates, back office, ticket counters, every piece of equipment is brand new and all mainline equipment too. All of the branding is that of UA mainline. UA has a fancy baggage room all set up and it looks like the stuff you see in the New Terminal B South at IAH. It's really nice!!! UA doesn't use the baggage room right now either but built it, has nice equipment, and it ready for use. UA back office at DAL is huge! UA also purposely painted their gates for B737/8/9 A319/320 E170/175/190 ERJ135/145 CRJ200/700. Only UA gates are painted like that. All WN gates are painted 737 and 8 except for Gate 9 which also has B717. VX gates are only painted for their A319/320. UA has everything in place at DAL to start mainline service at any minute. UA did not spend all that money and time for nothing. They also went the extra step to make everything look nice and fancy and just not plain. Also UA never did any of this stuff at DAL before. They have moved a few times at DAL in the past. Keep it all CO/UA Express with all old Express equipment and old computers and equipment.

I think once the E170 and 175s goes to real food in First Class, you will see UA start to add service to DAL. DAL is a big business market and the last thing UA would want to do is start off on the wrong foot. There is also some staffing issues that carried over from Continental days. DFW/DAL are co-terminals and still if UA went mainline at DAL, it has to be worked by UA mainline employees after so many months of mainline service. I think UA is trying to work that out.

As for DL, UA is letting WN use their gate 15 and I have flown out DAL plenty of times since UA moved over to their new gates and I see what UA and WN are doing. I'm not going to say anything. What will happen to DL will most likely go... UA will one day fly to other cities from DAL need both of their gates which means WN will then need another gate and DL will have no gate then like what happened to AA back with CO at DAL. So for now, UA doesn't always need gate 15, WN can use it, and its the status quo for DL till things change at UA.

I do see UA adding DAL-EWR, ORD, and SFO at some point in the future.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 14): United has a plan for DAL, but what that exactly looks like only the people in the Sears Tower know.

Do you mean the Willis Tower? I wonder if the name will become the United Tower anytime soon? I know most people still refer to the building as the Sears Tower. I was just needling a little.

Quoting milesrich (Reply 15): Do you mean the Willis Tower? I wonder if the name will become the United Tower anytime soon? I know most people still refer to the building as the Sears Tower. I was just needling a little.

As a person who worked out of the Sears tower for a few years (not for UA), it will always be the Sears Tower to me. I stopped working from there just before the initial folks UA moved in.

It seems DL is operating from somewhere and the city wants them to stay. I would bet UA is "convinced" to give up or share a gate because the city really seems to love having DL at DAL.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...y-officials-continue-to-talk.html/

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 16): Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):Do you mean the Willis Tower? I wonder if the name will become the United Tower anytime soon? I know most people still refer to the building as the Sears Tower. I was just needling a little.

Just as for any of us from New York it will ALWAYS be the Pan Am Building. Never mind that Met Life has their logo on it now.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 14):

Interesting insight. Thanks for sharing. I sure hope those two gates go to good use.

Quoting JDAirCEO (Reply 17): It seems DL is operating from somewhere and the city wants them to stay.

Delta was prepared to sue if they couldn't operate after the full repeal. My guess is they're equally prepared to sue if they can't continue their operations, and neither the city nor Southwest want that cozy agreement that guarantees Southwest a quasi monopoly at the airport tested in court.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 14): I think once the E170 and 175s goes to real food in First Class, you will see UA start to add service to DAL. DAL is a big business market and the last thing UA would want to do is start off on the wrong foot.

If by "on the wrong foot" you mean "with a lot of poor service on regionals," UA already does that in plenty of big business markets like Atlanta, Minneapolis and Toronto.

Delta is now in a temporary agreement to have one of United's gates for 180 days.
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ine-to-operate-at-love-field.html/

Looks like DL will use one of the UA gates for 180 days.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ine-to-operate-at-love-field.html/

180 days, yet DL is still selling seats DAL-ATL in Oct/Nov/Dec

Quoting Dallas (Reply 24): 180 days, yet DL is still selling seats DAL-ATL in Oct/Nov/Dec

Of course! When the next eviction deadline approaches DL will argue that it has to stay, in order to serve all the advanced bookings through the end of the busy summer travel season. Perhaps they'll also claim that a lot of people have booked holiday travel too...

The bottom line is that DL does not want to leave DAL, and they won't go without a fight (which could jeopardize the gate cap and perhaps even the entire settlement agreement).

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 25): The bottom line is that DL does not want to leave DAL, and they won't go without a fight (which could jeopardize the gate cap and perhaps even the entire settlement agreement).

I agree, but I still think a fight is not in UA's interest either. UA clearly is not interested in serving metroplex-originating passengers (nor should they be with two of the four legacies having hubs and third having had a hub), so it seems to me that having someone else spend the money to fight WN is a winning strategy.

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 25): The bottom line is that DL does not want to leave DAL, and they won't go without a fight (which could jeopardize the gate cap and perhaps even the entire settlement agreement).

Not going to happen. It is Texas. Delta does not have that type of clout here.

Anyone Know if terminal 1 the old United and AA gates have been demolished yet?
If not DAL should just do a temporary agreement to let DL used 2 of the gates until All parties involved with the Agreement can reach a Deal.


Flyguy

[Edited 2015-01-08 12:41:52]

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 25): The bottom line is that DL does not want to leave DAL,

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 26): I agree, but I still think a fight is not in UA's interest either.

Do they really have to fight, DFW is right there with gates available, its not as if either of these two mainline / legacy carriers have not operated at DFW before, now I must defer to DL since they had actually closed up shop at DFW before.
One would assume that based on their size and loyalty programs they can generate enough traffic to support a flight or two from DFW with no stress.
UA should actually look at letting DL have both gates, hopefully the WN lease is not long. It would put and end to all the fuss, unless, we actually want to get DAL fully unshackled.....

Quoting par13del (Reply 29):

Which is exactly what I think they (and also Southwest) want to happen.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 28): Anyone Know if terminal 1 the old United and AA gates have been demolished yet? If not DAL should just do a temporary agreement to let DL used 2 of the gates until All parties involved with the Agreement can reach a Deal.

Yes it has! City is moving fast to clear that area. They will be building a new parking garage and hotel there.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 24): 180 days, yet DL is still selling seats DAL-ATL in Oct/Nov/Dec

DL will be using UA gate 15. They already painted the B-717 markings there. DL can sell as far out as they want. If UA decides to use their gates at the end of 180 days then DL will have to look elsewhere.

This does work out for the best for both DL and UA, because UA ops at DAL has been impacted since DL was moved to WN gate 9. Both DL and UA are staffed and worked for the most part by the same group of people. The had to run from one end to the airport to the other to push flights and sometimes no one would show up for the UA flight till departure time because they were pushing DL and other times we would land and have to wait because the ground crew was down by gate 9 and there was no one at UA gates to marshal us in. Also if things go irrops with UA at DAL and they need both gates, the DL plane will have to wait till UA clears a gate as UA has first rights to the gates. Also when ground equipment broke we would have to wait for them to drive it around the whole airport. So both DL and UA flights have been impacted with the split ops. So while DL is at DAL this works out best for both of them till UA adds more flights.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 20): Delta was prepared to sue if they couldn't operate after the full repeal. My guess is they're equally prepared to sue if they can't continue their operations, and neither the city nor Southwest want that cozy agreement that guarantees Southwest a quasi monopoly at the airport tested in court.

Quoting par13del (Reply 29): It would put and end to all the fuss, unless, we actually want to get DAL fully unshackled.....

WOW!!!! I remember the days when no one wanted a piece of DAL. Now it seems everyone whats to fly there. I think that WN wants DL to fight. Maybe then we can get a real free DAL. Of course WN, AA and the CIty of Dallas can't fight anymore. They need someone else to go to battle. Who better the a HUGE DL.

I predict a completely, 100% free, with no restrictions DAL in the not to distant future with 30+ gates.


WW

Quoting wwtraveler99 (Reply 33): I think that WN wants DL to fight. Maybe then we can get a real free DAL. Of course WN, AA and the CIty of Dallas can't fight anymore. They need someone else to go to battle. Who better the a HUGE DL.

       WN can't fight it so I'm sure they would love to have DL do it.

Quoting par13del (Reply 29): Do they really have to fight, DFW is right there with gates available, its not as if either of these two mainline / legacy carriers have not operated at DFW before, now I must defer to DL since they had actually closed up shop at DFW before.

DL NEVER "closed up shop" at DFW. They reduced the size of the operation and closed the hub, but they are still operating there.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 34):        WN can't fight it so I'm sure they would love to have DL do it.

Are you sure about that? I'm sure at first WN would have liked a fight so they could get more gates, but now I think they enjoy the cap at 20 preventing other carriers from operating out of DAL. I still believe they have flights they could trim to add new service (and use bigger planes), and they are operating 153 flights out of 16 gates, so using the 10x gate, they could still add another 7 daily flights. If WN wanted to expand to BOS, SJC, and other markets, it sure seems like they'd be able to.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 36): so using the 10x gate, they could still add another 7 daily flights. If WN wanted to expand to BOS, SJC, and other markets, it sure seems like they'd be able to.

True, but I don't know that 10x is a comfortable number for WN at a larger station. They've done it at LAX and did it at STL for a few years (late 2000s), and if there's any IRROPS, things go downhill quickly. I can remember many hour-plus waits for gates at STL. At MDW, where they have control of about 32-35 gates and about 250 flights, they spill onto City gates semi-regularly.

[Edited 2015-01-09 07:06:47]

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37): True, but I don't know that 10x is a comfortable number for WN at a larger station.

Wasn't 10 flights per gate the number needed to satisfy the City in saying the gates are technically "fully utilized"?

Quoting Dallas (Reply 38): Wasn't 10 flights per gate the number needed to satisfy the City in saying the gates are technically "fully utilized"?

That may be right, but as we've seen (from UA's shenanigans), gates can be "fully utilized" in the sense that there's a plane on the gate with many fewer flights than that.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 36): I'm sure at first WN would have liked a fight so they could get more gates, but now I think they enjoy the cap at 20 preventing other carriers from operating out of DAL.

The 20 gate cap is not as favorable to WN, at first glance having 16 of the 20 gates assigned to one carrier appears un-competitive to outsiders looking in, additionally, it is also a major restriction to expansion, which is the whole point, ensuring the DFW remains protected.

Quoting mayor (Reply 35): DL NEVER "closed up shop" at DFW. They reduced the size of the operation and closed the hub, but they are still operating there.

True. They now operate to about 8 destinations (LGA/LAX/JFK/ATL/DTW/MSP/SLC/CVG). It seems they have also stated their desire to move some flights, like those to LGA and LAX, to DAL. That is an important consideration here; if DL only gets one mixed-use gate, they will never have all the gates they ostensibly want, and that is a point they should make when negotiating with the city or other airlines.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 36): now I think they enjoy the cap at 20 preventing other carriers from operating out of DAL. I still believe they have flights they could trim to add new service

The gate cap at DAL is unfavorable to WN in large part because they do have to cut flights in order to add new service. With more destinations and flights at DAL, there would be greater demand in the feed markets you seem to think they ought to cut.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 28): Anyone Know if terminal 1 the old United and AA gates have been demolished yet? If not DAL should just do a temporary agreement to let DL used 2 of the gates until All parties involved with the Agreement can reach a Deal.

They can't. Federal law restricts DAL to 20 gates with no use of hardstands outside of IRROPS.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 14): I think once the E170 and 175s goes to real food in First Class, you will see UA start to add service to DAL. DAL is a big business market and the last thing UA would want to do is start off on the wrong foot.

So... keeping Barbie's Dream Jet and service only to IAH was a better option?

Quoting ScottB (Reply 42): The gate cap at DAL is unfavorable to WN in large part because they do have to cut flights in order to add new service. With more destinations and flights at DAL, there would be greater demand in the feed markets you seem to think they ought to cut.

Quoting par13del (Reply 40): The 20 gate cap is not as favorable to WN, at first glance having 16 of the 20 gates assigned to one carrier appears un-competitive to outsiders looking in, additionally, it is also a major restriction to expansion, which is the whole point, ensuring the DFW remains protected.

I think both of these are somewhat answered by this:

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 41): They now operate to about 8 destinations (LGA/LAX/JFK/ATL/DTW/MSP/SLC/CVG). It seems they have also stated their desire to move some flights, like those to LGA and LAX, to DAL. That is an important consideration here; if DL only gets one mixed-use gate, they will never have all the gates they ostensibly want, and that is a point they should make when negotiating with the city or other airlines.

Yes, more gates gives WN a better ability to expand their network, but at the cost of bringing in additional competition. DL proposed bringing in flights to ATL (existing but additional), LGA, MSP, DTW, and LAX, which would hurt WN's "monopoly". UA could expand, same with VX, plus new carriers would be attracted to DAL.

All in all, I am 100% in favor of more flights and more competition, as it would be great for the Dallas area and DAL. I personally love flying VX and DL has been quite good to me, especially when comparing it to WN and their crammed coach cabins. However, from the WN perspective, I think they are quite fine with how everything stands as is. VX is stuck at 2 gates and cannot expand. UA and DL are pretty much stuck with 1 gate each (or UA with 2, DL with 0). AA and all other carriers are locked out with 0 gates, and WN can run all of their Texas international flights out of their new HOU terminal.

I See United settling into a long term lease with Delta.
flyguy

Quoting ScottB (Reply 42): The gate cap at DAL is unfavorable to WN in large part because they do have to cut flights in order to add new service. With more destinations and flights at DAL, there would be greater demand in the feed markets you seem to think they ought to cut.

I do believe that Southwest is in favor of the cap remaining in place, however.

Removing it does not benefit Southwest in the short term. If the cap goes, so goes the provision guaranteeing Southwest 16 gates at DAL. Whenever one of Southwest's preferred use agreements expires, DAL will be under intense pressure, from the FAA first, the courts next if needed, not to renew it and instead sign a lease with another carrier or make the gate common use in order to increase competition.

In the long term, if/when a new terminal is built, DAL will assign gates on a anybody-but-Southwest-first policy, again under pressure to increase competition at the airport. Southwest's overall number of gates may increase, but its competitive position will decrease as it will face new tenants (jetBlue definitively) and expanded service from existing ones (Delta).

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 14): UA did not spend all that money and time for nothing.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 14): DFW/DAL are co-terminals and still if UA went mainline at DAL, it has to be worked by UA mainline employees after so many months of mainline service. I think UA is trying to work that out.

United loves to waste money. They remodeled a bunch of line station break rooms then outsourced those same stations 3 months later. While the medium size line stations still have old and dirty break rooms.

DFW and DAL are not one point. DAL is a outsourced station. Even if they brought mainline flights into DAL, they could still staff in with vendors. The mainline flights with mainline employees is not in this new CBA.

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 46): DFW and DAL are not one point. DAL is a outsourced station. Even if they brought mainline flights into DAL, they could still staff in with vendors. The mainline flights with mainline employees is not in this new CBA.

If change happen with the new CBA that is good to know. I know DAL is outsource and it happened when CO sold off ExpressJet. Now it is American Eagle doing ground. In the past I had a detailed discussion with Larry K on the issue of DAL. After the last Wright Amendment Compromise which got rid of the Texas two step, I spoke to him about adding mainline flights to DAL from IAH. The biggest reason he told me they did not want to do it had to do with staffing. He said after so many months of scheduled mainline service at DAL they had to staff with CO mainline employees. He also went into great detail about how they DFW/DAL had the same clauses for their staffing in the market. Now, I don't know if they might have something to do with the whole Wright Amendment and what ever agreements CO had to make with DFW Airport and City of Dallas. There is more devil in the details when it comes to DAL than probably most of the airports in the country. I could tell they had given it a lot of though. I'm glad if things have changed when it comes to staffing.

Oh and UA also put nice gate check bag elevators to get bags down to the ramp at their two gates.

Quoting ramprat74 (Reply 46): United loves to waste money. They remodeled a bunch of line station break rooms then outsourced those same stations 3 months later. While the medium size line stations still have old and dirty break rooms.

Speaking of break rooms, UA is letting DL use their break room at DAL as DL back office. It must be one hell of a break room lol.

Here is the baggage room the put in at DAL that they don't currently use.



[Edited 2015-01-09 12:07:22]

Quoting Dallas (Reply 43): DL proposed bringing in flights to ATL (existing but additional), LGA, MSP, DTW, and LAX, which would hurt WN's "monopoly". UA could expand, same with VX, plus new carriers would be attracted to DAL.

What "monopoly" does WN have on those routes? VX flies to LGA & LAX. WN doesn't serve either MSP or DTW non-stop from DAL. UA could expand right now! They haven't.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 43): I personally love flying VX and DL has been quite good to me, especially when comparing it to WN and their crammed coach cabins.

How exactly are VX & DL any less cramped in their regular coach cabins? 80-90% of passengers on both VX & DL are flying in coach.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 45): Removing it does not benefit Southwest in the short term. If the cap goes, so goes the provision guaranteeing Southwest 16 gates at DAL. Whenever one of Southwest's preferred use agreements expires, DAL will be under intense pressure, from the FAA first, the courts next if needed, not to renew it and instead sign a lease with another carrier or make the gate common use in order to increase competition.

WN's gate leases expire in 2028. I'm pretty sure that new gates could be built at DAL in fewer than thirteen years.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 45): In the long term, if/when a new terminal is built, DAL will assign gates on a anybody-but-Southwest-first policy, again under pressure to increase competition at the airport. Southwest's overall number of gates may increase, but its competitive position will decrease as it will face new tenants (jetBlue definitively) and expanded service from existing ones (Delta).

That's simply not how it's done. The needs of existing tenants would absolutely be taken into consideration, especially if those tenants have a history of using their leaseholds as fully as possible. I expect that a new master plan for the airport would take into account the needs of the airlines already at DAL as well as making accommodations for new carriers.

And I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what exactly the big threat is that WN would face from B6 & DL. B6's entry into another WN-dominated airport -- HOU -- has been a dud. DL manages a handful of flights from HOU to ATL and that's it.

WN is the only carrier likely to serve a broad portfolio of destinations from DAL and as such is likely to maintain a substantial competitive advantage there.