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DTWLAX
Topic Author
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AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:26 am

http://mashable.com/2015/01/01/air-france-business-seat-fire/

Cause: Crushed lithium battery

The article mentions the 777 has had issues in the past with business class seats. Anybody know what other issues are and what is the cause?

[Edited 2015-01-01 18:28:21]
 
nitepilot79
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:15 pm

I was a little surprised to hear that the fire was put out with a glass of water. To use a fire extinguisher seems the most prudent action.

Also, it seems that the J seats, rather than the 777, would be at fault. I could be wrong.

Talk about being in the "hot seat" har har  
 
jumpseat
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:40 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 1):

I was a little surprised to hear that the fire was put out with a glass of water. To use a fire extinguisher seems the most prudent action.

It may have been the case that a glass of water was the nearer than a BCF? Non flammable liquids can be used on a suspected lithium battery fire.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 1):
I was a little surprised to hear that the fire was put out with a glass of water.

The procedure is :

Unplug the item
Put out the fire asap with BCF OR water (water has the advantage to cool the battery)
Do not move it unless the item is in the cockpit
Cool the item to stop internal reactions and prevent fire to restart
 
washingtonflyer
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:29 pm

Must have been one fat passenger...
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:38 pm

I guess I'm wondering why the seats need batteries... I always figured they were powered off of some bus line fed from the generators or ground power source (GPU/APU).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
brilondon
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 1):

I was a little surprised to hear that the fire was put out with a glass of water. To use a fire extinguisher seems the most prudent action.

Also, it seems that the J seats, rather than the 777, would be at fault. I could be wrong.

Talk about being in the "hot seat" har har  

I don't know why you would not use a glass of water in this situation. This is SOP for fires that are not chemical in nature and more prudent to extinguish quickly than to let it burn while you are going for the fire extinguisher.
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alfa164
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 5):
I guess I'm wondering why the seats need batteries... I always figured they were powered off of some bus line fed from the generators or ground power source (GPU/APU).

I wondered, too. Maybe it was used for some sort of memory function in the AVOD system... or even in the electronic seat controls.
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KELPkid
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:09 pm

Talk about being in the hot seat...   
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trex8
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:13 pm

Its not clear to me that the lithium battery was part of the seat as it was crushed by the seat mechanism according to the story. Maybe a loose battery belonging to a previous pax that fell down into the seat mechanism??
 
INFINITI329
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting DTWLAX (Thread starter):
The article mentions the 777 has had issues in the past with business class seats. Anybody know what other issues are and what is the cause?

I dont see how this can pinpointed to the plane
 
mats01776
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:33 pm

Somehow the terms "Old Sparky" and "Old Smokey" popped into my head.
They came equipped with user-non-defeatable seat restraints if memory serves.
 
FlySSC
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 5):
I guess I'm wondering why the seats need batteries...

No lithium Batterie in the seat ... The fire was probably caused by a crushed cellphone or tablet in the seat.
It happened already once on AF on May 2nd 2013 on a flight from Paris to Sao Paulo, when a mobile phone caught fire after sliding under a seat cushion and being crushed when the passenger moved the seat back in the upright position.
 
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Clipper101
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:15 pm

Usually in a situation similar to that one described, there should be a power cut-off switch associated to each seat or seat block (such as, a double seat, a triple seat, a quad seat) depending on seat power distribution architecture, regardless if it is F, or B or Y, in a known location to the crew, crew can access that switch & cut-off the power to that seat/seat block in such cases.

Worse-come-to-worst & the crew can shut-off power from a zone of seats from crew main terminal, this is another back-up plan B to cut-off power.

[Edited 2015-01-02 10:13:24]

[Edited 2015-01-02 10:16:17]
 
aajfksjubklyn
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:00 pm

Airplane fire extinguishers suck all available oxygen out of the air. Therefore they are only used in special and extreme circumstances and requires the crew to evacuate the local area and put on a smoke hood.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:16 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 6):
I don't know why you would not use a glass of water in this situation. This is SOP for fires that are not chemical in nature and more prudent to extinguish quickly than to let it burn while you are going for the fire extinguisher.

Because after the "flames" are out, you want to cool the lithium battery, to prevent it from running away again. Liquids are the way to do this. Ice is a terrible idea to do it with.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
s5daw
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:59 pm

Uhmm… lithium batteries and water really don't mix well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM9_fX-rwDs
 
frostyj
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:11 pm

Was it the avod on fire?
[url=http://m.maploco.com/details/5f34zxvq][img]http://www.maploco.com/vmap/s/8395334.png[/img][/url]
 
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Clipper101
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting s5daw (Reply 16):

In defense of DiamodFlyer (Reply 15), it seems he knows what he is talking about, I admit I even did not get the full picture first hand: In accordance with FAA Advisory Circular No. 20-42D, there is full description of types of fires & suitable means to counter them.

Per Chapter 3, Section 1, Part b:

Quote

b. lithium Battery Fires. Do Dot treat a fire involving a small number of lithium batteries as a Class D fire. We consider a small number of rechargeable lithium batteries as what would be found in portable electronic devices (PED) e.g. laptop computers, cell phones. pagers, audio/video/data recording or playback devices, messaging devices, personal digital assistants (PDAs), and two-way radios. See chapter 4 paragraph I f of this AC on fire fighting training for further information.

Un-quote

Per Chapter 4, Section 1, Part f, the following is quoted:

Quote

f. Lithium Battery Fires. Crew members should be trained not to treat a small number of lithium batteries as a Class D fire. Halon, Halon replacement, or water extinguishers can be used to control fires involving a small number of rechargeable lithium batteries as found in PED e.g. laptop computers, cell phones, pagers, audio/video/data recording or playback devices, messaging devices, PDAs, and two-way radios. Water or other water based liquid from any available source should be poured over the cells immediately after fire knockdown or extinguishment, since only water or water based liquids can provide sufficient cooling to prevent re-ignition and/or propagation of the fire to adjacent cells of the battery pack. A water extinguisher, by itself, can be used safely (from a distance) to extinguish a lithium battery fire and will usually cool it sufficiently to end the event. If needed, it can be followed up by water from any available source.
Un-quote,

To me, AF crew also seems to know what he/she was doing

Advisory link to whom are interested http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m.../Advisory_Circular/AC%2020-42D.pdf
 
shamrock137
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting nitepilot79 (Reply 1):
I was a little surprised to hear that the fire was put out with a glass of water. To use a fire extinguisher seems the most prudent action.
Quoting s5daw (Reply 16):

Uhmm… lithium batteries and water really don't mix well

FAA training states for a lithium fire to extinguish with water instead of dry chemical or halon as this will cool the battery and slow or stop the reaction. A training video can be found here This is what happens when you use a dry chem on a lithium fire, not very effective.
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Viscount724
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RE: AF54 Diverted To Montreal Due To Overheating Seat

Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:43 pm

From Transport Canada daily occurrence reports (my translation from original report in French):

An Air France Boeing 777 300 (AFR054) from Paris/Charles de Gaulle (LFPG) to Washington, DC (KIAD) declared an emergency at 2022Z due to smoke in the cockpit and requested to divert to Montréal, QC (CYUL). AFR054 landed without incident at 2048Z. ARFF deployed.

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