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HALFA
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Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:02 pm

Hawaiian Airlines applied for a Haneda-Kona daily route authority today and is seeking the route authority currently held by Delta, which has reduced it's service from Haneda to Seattle from daily to seasonal. If awarded the route authority, service would begin in June using an A330-200 aircraft.
Let the HA/AA/DL slugfest begin!

More here:
http://investor.hawaiianairlines.com....view?c=82818&v=203&d=1&id=2003195

Aloha,
HALFA
Hawaiian Airlines Since 1929...........
 
32andBelow
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:05 pm

Would they deadhead the plane or would they offer inner island on a widebody?
 
HALFA
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 1):

Would they deadhead the plane or would they offer inner island on a widebody?


I haven't seen any crew projections yet, but I would think with an arrival time in KOA at about 1:00pm, and a departure scheduled to HND, depending on the season, between 5:00-6:00pm, the same aircraft could be used to fly the KOA routes, and there could be an aircraft swap at HND if the KOA plane is needed back in HNL for scheduled maintenance.
Hawaiian Airlines Since 1929...........
 
HAL
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:23 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 1):
Would they deadhead the plane or would they offer inner island on a widebody?

I'm sure it would work like the current OGG 767 & 330 service. The planes would fly to HND (in the case of the KOA flight), and be there the same time as the incoming HNL flight. If the plane needs a maintenance check in HNL it would pick up that flight, while the plane that came in from HNL would go to KOA. Otherwise it might shuttle back & forth between HND and KOA for a couple of days until it cycles back to HNL.

In the OGG example, a plane may fly HNL-SEA, then the next day or two shuttle between OGG and SEA before returning to HNL. So just like the OGG flights, I'm sure they would not run a daily HNL KOA 330 flight just to make it work.

HAL
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:33 am

If KOA is so good then why doesn't HA fly KOA-NRT? Why take inferior timings? I can"t believe HND would be profitable if NRT would notr be. This route would be like DL, HA or UA flying KOA-SNA but no KOA-LAX.

Shouldn't this route go to a well served Tokyo market like UA GUM-HND

?

[Edited 2015-01-05 16:43:47]
 
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RWA380
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 4):

If OGG is so good then why doesn't HA fly OGG-NRT?
JL wanted to offer OGG-NRT decades ago, the runway is not capable of Intercontinental departures. If Maui could or would extend the runway there, then airlines could offer non-stops to Japan.
As it is, the UA OGG-ORD flight needed to stop in KOA before heading to ORD as it is too heavy to operate non-stop.

[Edited 2015-01-05 16:57:17]

[Edited 2015-01-05 17:00:08]
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32andBelow
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:52 am

I'm trying to picture them turning an A330 at that airport. Should be interesting.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 5):
JL wanted to offer OGG-NRT decades ago, the runway is not capable of Intercontinental departures.

Sorry on my original post I was on my iphone and mistakenly posted OGG instead of KOA.

According to HA's route map they only fly KOA to the mainland seasonally. Can this KOA-HND route really expected to make it?
 
Tradewinds
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 4):

As someone currently living an hour from KOA with lots of family in the Tokyo area, I can tell you that I would far prefer HND over NRT. NRT is miles and miles away from the center of Tokyo. Most Japanese people I know also complain about how inconvenient NRT is and how it's so much easier to get to HND for your flights.

Mind you I don't know anything about the historical cost performances of the airports, but purely from the standpoint of convenience, HND is *far* preferable to NRT. (Of course at this point I'd take either!)
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aloha73g
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 7):
According to HA's route map they only fly KOA to the mainland seasonally. Can this KOA-HND route really expected to make it?
Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
I'm trying to picture them turning an A330 at that airport. Should be interesting.

JL flew NRT-KOA for a decade thru 2010...on a 747.

-Aloha!
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32andBelow
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 7):
According to HA's route map they only fly KOA to the mainland seasonally.

They have to fill those dozens of inner-island flights somehow.
 
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
I'm trying to picture them turning an A330 at that airport. Should be interesting.

Plenty of space at the airport. HA occasionally flies 767 charters in there, and in the past, JAL flew 767s from NRT in the 90s. More recently, as a previous poster noted, UA routed a 777 ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD.
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 4):
If KOA is so good then why doesn't HA fly KOA-NRT? Why take inferior timings?

The answer to both questions is quite simple. HA would prefer to fly to HND vs NRT, and the timings work quite nicely to/from Hawaii.

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OzarkD9S
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:28 am

The times are great for Hawaii and I hope HA gets it. Everyone has tried HND-USA with the crappy times and only a couple outside Hawaii work. So let HA have it.
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strfyr51
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:20 am

Jeezx Guys!! Can you BLAME Hawaiian for trying to get the route? Iwork for United and I think HA can make a case as well as anybody for their attempt. "You Miss every shot you don't take" Hell! Let Em take the shot !! Who Knows?? They might win the route!
 
azjubilee
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:21 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 10):

Very capably. HAL (and others) flew DC10s to KOA back in the day. More recently HAL flew 767s daily last summer from KOA and turned them with no problems. So, the 330 will be no different.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 10):

The majority of neighbor island passengers are actually locals, not tourists.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:54 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 19):

Well said. Either you get it, or you don't. It's what I tell my coworkers when they are in doubt of anything: "what's the worst that's gonna happen if you ask? They say no? Ask."
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
ha763
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:44 am

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 4):
If KOA is so good then why doesn't HA fly KOA-NRT? Why take inferior timings? I can"t believe HND would be profitable if NRT would notr be. This route would be like DL, HA or UA flying KOA-SNA but no KOA-LAX.

HA already flies HNL-HND and would rather not have a split Tokyo operation and the slot times are perfect for flights to Hawaii. BTW, when AQ was still around, their most profitable mainland flights were SNA-Hawaii and they didn't fly to LAX.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 9):
JL flew NRT-KOA for a decade thru 2010...on a 747

JAL's KOA flight was mainly a DC-10-40 and then 767-300ER with occasional 747s during peak Japanese travel times.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:53 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 14):

Jeezx Guys!! Can you BLAME Hawaiian for trying to get the route? Iwork for United and I think HA can make a case as well as anybody for their attempt. "You Miss every shot you don't take" Hell! Let Em take the shot !! Who Knows?? They might win the route!

From what I understand, the route is awarded based on the best intrests of the American travelling public, which is why HA has lost out on it's past attempts.

If HA was given the route authority it would benefit few that were originating here in the US, but instead it'll cater to foreign origin traffic. HA has not been given the same consideration as the other carriers who have previously held this authority because of that reason, IMO.

Now if the powers that be could or would, consider which carrier will most likely be successful with the authority, then IMO, HA is the obvious choice.

One could even argue that the additional flight will bring more tourism dollars into an already thriving industry currently enjoyed in Hawaii, making HA a good economic choice, except it would only benefit a very small part of the USA.

Since this authority has been passed around more than a box of twinkees in a weight watchers meeting parking lot, it should go to whomever can make it work at this point, instead of making mainland carriers juggle an impossible route that can't be timed for convenience, they really should just let HA have it, IMO.
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting ha763 (Reply 17):
HA already flies HNL-HND and would rather not have a split Tokyo operation and the slot times are perfect for flights to Hawaii. BTW, when AQ was still around, their most profitable mainland flights were SNA-Hawaii and they didn't fly to LAX.

The time do work better than most mainland-HND routes. Comparing to other HA flights to Japan, the departure is several hours later and the return a couple hours later, but there would be no connections at KOA. Somehow it just doesn't seem fair that HA would get 100% of their operations from close-in HND while other much larger carriers get maybe 10% of their destinations from HND and have to run a split operation.

The real issue here is why Japan is so controlling on these flights. They opened up international flights with terrible times, then offered Japanese only carriers daytime slots in 2013. Could you imagine the US saying non-US airlines could only operate from any international airport between 11pm and 7am? This is a pure protection racket for NRT - is NRT so badly in need of protection that a handful of International flights could operate out of HND at decent times??
 
a380787
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 19):
They opened up international flights with terrible times, then offered Japanese only carriers daytime slots in 2013. Could you imagine the US saying non-US airlines could only operate from any international airport between 11pm and 7am?

The daytime slots only apply to certain nations. JAL and ANA are still bounded by nighttime slots for HND-USA.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 20):
The daytime slots only apply to certain nations. JAL and ANA are still bounded by nighttime slots for HND-USA.

Wikipedia says the below and who knows if this is correct or not?:
"Nine daytime slot pairs (for Japanese carriers only) remained unallocated and were intended to be used for service to the United States, but allocation talks were stalled as of January 2014, leading the Japanese government to release these slots for charter services to other countries through October 2014."
 
a380787
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 21):

"Nine daytime slot pairs (for Japanese carriers only) remained unallocated and were intended to be used for service to the United States, but allocation talks were stalled as of January 2014, leading the Japanese government to release these slots for charter services to other countries through October 2014."

It doesn't make sense for the slots to be for JP carriers only. So far every HND daytime agreement with other nations involve both JP carriers and foreign carriers, so I don't expect USA to be any different.

If they're 100% for JP carriers, I wouldn't imagine DOT agreeing to that either.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 22):
It doesn't make sense for the slots to be for JP carriers only. So far every HND daytime agreement with other nations involve both JP carriers and foreign carriers, so I don't expect USA to be any different.

If they're 100% for JP carriers, I wouldn't imagine DOT agreeing to that either.

Was the DOT or any US carrier in there working for those daytime Intl slots to the US? I never heard of US airlines putting u=out press releases applying for service into HND during daylight hours. If daytime slots were out for US carriers, what would be the chances of the DOT giving HA slots for KOA service when better times would be available for much larger, tested markets like NYC/ORD/LAX and others?
 
a380787
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 23):

I believe discussions are still ongoing so nothing to apply for yet
 
ha763
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 19):
Comparing to other HA flights to Japan, the departure is several hours later and the return a couple hours later, but there would be no connections at KOA. Somehow it just doesn't seem fair that HA would get 100% of their operations from close-in HND while other much larger carriers get maybe 10% of their destinations from HND and have to run a split operation.

Compare the schedule to HA's current HND flight and you will see that connections at KOA would be possible. The current winer schedule has the flight arriving in HNL around 11:30 and the departing around 17:30, with the summer schedule being 12:25 and 18:40. If they are awarded the flight to KOA, the schedule would be similar. Then again, almost the entire plane would be filled with O&D pax whose final destination is KOA, so connections would not be as important.

As for the split operations, as I said, it is HA's decision to not want a split operation for 2 flights. This decision also hampers HA's ability to expand in the Tokyo market since they are limited to the available slots allocated to the U.S.

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 19):
The real issue here is why Japan is so controlling on these flights. They opened up international flights with terrible times, then offered Japanese only carriers daytime slots in 2013.
Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 21):
Wikipedia says the below and who knows if this is correct or not?:
"Nine daytime slot pairs (for Japanese carriers only) remained unallocated and were intended to be used for service to the United States, but allocation talks were stalled as of January 2014, leading the Japanese government to release these slots for charter services to other countries through October 2014."

HND does not have to capacity to handle the influx of international flights that would happen if the airport was open for any carrier to just fly in, so the solution is to allot a certain number of reciprocal slots to countries that wanted them. Using the U.S. as the example, the U.S. got 4 nighttime slots to allocate to U.S. carriers, so Japan has 4 nighttime slots to allocate to Japanese carriers. Japan would have to allocate daytime slots to the U.S. in order to allocate the same to Japanese carriers.

As for the Wikipedia entry, the source cited does not mention anything about the time of the slots, nor does it say it is for Japanese carriers only.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/n...-charter-flights-at-haneda-airpo-0

If the 9 are daytime slots, I believe that only 8 of the 9 slots are for U.S. destinations and are the daytime slots being reserved to allocate between Japan and the U.S. In the CAPA article about the awarding of daytime slots, it mentions 4 slots for the U.S. This means Japan will also have 4 daytime slots to the U.S. Canada also was awarded one daytime slot, being used by AC, but the Japanese slot to Canada is not being used and is the 9th slot mentioned.

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...irport-remains-the-main-hub-132103

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 23):
Was the DOT or any US carrier in there working for those daytime Intl slots to the US? I never heard of US airlines putting u=out press releases applying for service into HND during daylight hours. If daytime slots were out for US carriers, what would be the chances of the DOT giving HA slots for KOA service when better times would be available for much larger, tested markets like NYC/ORD/LAX and others?

U.S. carriers can't apply for HND daytime slots because the U.S. doesn't have any to allocate. UA, DL, and AA all want daytime slots and would immediately apply for them once available. Depending on what UA and DL do with their current nighttime slots, I doubt HA would apply for the daytime slots. The current nighttime slots are close to the optimal times for Hawaii flights. If anything, HA would like an earlier arrival slot in HND.
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:28 pm

Sorry if I was incorrect, but the Wiki article states that the daytime slot allocation were an issue with JAL vs. ANA and the JAL bankruptcy. The immediate sentence following states that the daytime US slots were not allocated, leading me to believe the JAL/ANA issues prevented who would get how many. As you state, it does not address US carriers, however I have not heard of US carriers having the opportunity of daytime slots for US flights. Is that in writing anywhere?
 
ha763
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:16 am

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 26):
The immediate sentence following states that the daytime US slots were not allocated, leading me to believe the JAL/ANA issues prevented who would get how many. As you state, it does not address US carriers, however I have not heard of US carriers having the opportunity of daytime slots for US flights. Is that in writing anywhere?

According to the following article, it looks like it is 9 total slots for the U.S. and Japanese carriers. It also states that the U.S. carriers are pushing the U.S. government to get more slots than what the Japanese are willing to give. Until both governments can come to an agreement, there will be no opportunity for U.S. carriers to apply for HND daytime slots.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tren...ternationalization-holding-pattern
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:04 pm

Quoting calpsafltskeds (Reply 26):
the Wiki article states that the daytime slot allocation were an issue with JAL vs. ANA and the JAL bankruptcy. The immediate sentence following states that the daytime US slots were not allocated, leading me to believe the JAL/ANA issues prevented who would get how many. As you state, it does not address US carriers, however I have not heard of US carriers having the opportunity of daytime slots for US flights.

The Japanese Government have earmarked day-time slots for USA-HND, but at this stage they are unallocated. When the time comes they will be divided into 4 each for US and Japanese carrier, plus the potential for a Japanese carrier to use the unused Canada frequency (i.e. 9).

The hold-up has nothing to do with the Japanese end, per se, but rather Japan and the USA have not agreed on the terms of those slots. The hold-up is almost certainly not aviation related, and taking an educated guess is almost certainly tied-up with the TPP negotiations.

The proposed 9th slot is somewhat questionable, notwithstanding whatever happens with the 8 USA slots.
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PHX787
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:46 pm

Good luck to HA, and I hope they get that route. I'd fly it, probably.
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ktachiya
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
When the time comes they will be divided into 4 each for US and Japanese carrier, plus the potential for a Japanese carrier to use the unused Canada frequency

Isn't this already used by NH on the HND-YVR route? Kind of interesting that this route continues to be the sole B767 service to North America. Seems that they could allocated a B787 on the route already.
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:22 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
I'm trying to picture them turning an A330 at that airport. Should be interesting.

I flew on a UA 747-200 SFO-KOA in December 2000, sat in Business Class downstairs with 2x4x2 seating, the old configuration. First was full and business was almost empty, at least downstairs. This was early December before the holiday rush and this was a regularly scheduled flight, not an equipment substitution. On the return however there was a substitution, and it was a 747-400 instead that day, and it had the newer spacious business class and first class seats that were black, and both of those cabins filled up, yet coach was empty. It is hard to imagine walking up stairs to board a 747 from a tiny airport where the what seemed like only two gates total have no walls. It was also strange how the LAX flight was a 757 but SFO a 747, yet it is a real hub from them unlike LAX. (I mean, what airline doesn't consider LAX a hub?)
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:44 am

Surely at this point the DOT has resigned to the fact that the only viable options for the HND vampire slots are LAX, SFO, Hawaii, or other Pacific islands (i.e. GUM). Might as well let HA have it, since they have the best chance of finally putting this slot to good use.
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ktachiya
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:03 am

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 32):
Surely at this point the DOT has resigned to the fact that the only viable options for the HND vampire slots are LAX, SFO, Hawaii, or other Pacific islands (i.e. GUM). Might as well let HA have it, since they have the best chance of finally putting this slot to good use

Do they currently restrict US airlines from operating fifth freedom sectors from HND? If they could operate to points such as SIN or others, then I see these vampire slots being put into good use.

I mean CX/CI has a bank of North American routes from TPE or HKG using these vampire slots which allow for late evening arrivals in the United States or Canada. If US airlines do not want their aircraft sitting all day in HND, the JCAB at least should consider fifth freedom sectors for carriers such as DL.
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alfa164
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 33):
Do they currently restrict US airlines from operating fifth freedom sectors from HND? If they could operate to points such as SIN or others, then I see these vampire slots being put into good use.

The slots allocated to US carriers are strictly for routes between the USA and Tokyo.
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steex
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RE: Hawaiian Applies For Haneda-Kona Again

Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 33):
Do they currently restrict US airlines from operating fifth freedom sectors from HND? If they could operate to points such as SIN or others, then I see these vampire slots being put into good use.

The "vampire" slots are also likely to see better use if an airline is able to get its hands on daytime slots. US carriers have thus far been prioritizing aircraft utilization with their slots, attempting to turn a plane within the slot window rather than arrive early morning and leave the plane inactive for a solid 18 hours before a late night departure.

If they had a pair of each, an airline would have the flexibility to mix-and-match such that an east coast flight might use a vampire arrival and daytime departure slot, then a west coast destination could use the daytime arrival and vampire departure. This could significantly improve aircraft utilization for the two routes while allowing more desirable schedules.

[Edited 2015-01-08 19:45:51]

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