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justinlee
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Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:14 am

Recently, Air China announced its 2015 new international routes:

From Beijing (Long-haul):
CA165/6 Beijing-Melbourne, start from 6-1, A330, 1/3/5/7
CA867/8 Beijing-Johannesburg, start from 6-19, B773, 1/3/5
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5
CA739/40 Beijing-Auckland, start from 10-25, A330, D
CA741/2 Beijing-Mumbai, start from 10-25, A330, 1/3/5/7
CA869/70 Beijing-Addis Ababa, start from 10-25, A330, 1/4/6

From Beijing (Short-haul):
CA865/6 Beijing-Astana, start from 6-1, B738, 1/3/5/7
CA727/8 Beijing-Fukuoka, start from 6-1, B738, 1/3/5/7
CA729/30 Beijing-Hakodate, start from 6-1, B738, 1/5
CA871/2 Beijing-Kuala Lumpur, start from 10-25, A330, 2/4/6/7

From Hangzhou:
CA725/6 Hangzhou-Osaka, start from 3-30, A320, 1/4/5
CA723/4 Hangzhou-Shizuoka, start from 3-29, A320, 2/3/6/7

From Tianjin:
CA717/8 Tianji-Jeju, start from 4-2, B738, 2/4/6
 
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Miami
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:18 am

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5

Holy smokes! This is going to be awesome to see!

Congrats to Air China. Very impressive!
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5

I wonder if they're banking on YUL-HAV traffic to help them fill the plane. While long, a 77W can make PEK-HAV nonstop I imagine.

'902
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
While long, a 77W can make PEK-HAV nonstop I imagine.

6,885 nm. Can make it.

A 77W has a max range of 7,930nm.
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:47 am

If the JV between AC and CA goes ahead then I imagine that AC will be able to sell seats on the YUL to HAV leg if that is written into the agreement. There is a lot of negotiating to go yet but I would imagine this part was well worked out begore it was announced.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:50 am

YUL-HAV?

Can CA do Beijing-Havana nonstop?

Why not YVR-HAV? Makes more sense.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:51 am

That's one hell of an expansion! Congrats to Air China!
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777Jet
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:10 am

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA739/40 Beijing-Auckland, start from 10-25, A330, D

Great news for those in AKL & New Zealand looking for another / interesting option to North America, Europe or elsewhere. CA often offers very good fares with a good product IMO. I often use CA to the USA from SYD via PEK.

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):
Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5

Holy smokes! This is going to be awesome to see!

Congrats to Air China. Very impressive!

Yes! Congrats to CA!

What an awesome route!
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:13 am

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA165/6 Beijing-Melbourne, start from 6-1, A330, 1/3/5/7

Interesting, I am not sure if their PVG service is daily yet, first connection from MEL to PEK. Nice to see and somewhat overdue.

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5

Oh Wow I love these routes, so retro! Jealous of the crew! I'd love to do long trips combining two such interesting destinations.
 
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ghost77
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:31 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
Why not YVR-HAV? Makes more sense.

Why? It is even slightly longer than via YUL...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=pek-hav,+pek-yul-hav,+pek-yvr-hav

g77

[Edited 2015-01-05 19:33:05]
 
upwardfacing
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:31 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
I wonder if they're banking on YUL-HAV traffic to help them fill the plane.

Will CA have local traffic rights for YUL-HAV + HAV-YUL in the first place?
 
ek241yyz
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:33 am

Any scheduled times for that PEK-YUL-HAV route? any fifth freedoms?
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
That's one hell of an expansion! Congrats to Air China!

Indeed - what does the order books look like for wide body aircraft for the big three Chinese carriers?
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5

Is this the first time an Asian carrier has flown to the Caribbean on a scheduled basis?
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
Why not YVR-HAV? Makes more sense.

How do you figure?

Both PEK-YUL-HAV and PEK-YVR-HAV are almost the exact same distance, but YUL has far more traffic to HAV/Caribbean, and doesn't have anywhere near the competition to Asia that YVR does as well.
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
Why not YVR-HAV? Makes more sense.

How would that, in any way, make more sense than serving through YUL? YUL is a huge market to Cuba, and a new market for CA (and PEK will be YUL's first route into East Asia). Better to pair two new destinations together to let both mature than to route it via YVR. Further, I think there's only 1 or 2 weekly seasonal flights from YVR to all of Cuba (I believe either WS or AC might fly YVR-VRA, with Hawaii closer than Cuba it's no surpise), so it makes absoluetly 0 sense to fly YVR-HAV.
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thekorean
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 14):

AC already flies YUL-HAV.

And Cuba is definitely not the same as Hawaii.
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:16 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 16):


AC does not fly YUL-HAV, flies daily YYZ-HAV nonstop
 
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thekorean
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting flyyul (Reply 17):

Its a huge market but AC doesn't fly the route?
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:47 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 18):
Its a huge market but AC doesn't fly the route?
AC rouge Flies YUL-HOG/CCC/SNU/VRA/CYO
Air Transat flies YUL-HOG/VRA/CMW/CCC/CYO/SNU
Cubana flies YUL-CMW/HOG/SNU/CCC/HAV/SCU/VRA
Sunwing flies YUL-CCC/HOG/SNU/VRA/CYO/MZO/SCU
Westjet flies YUL-VRA
So... yes, I would would think YUL-Cuba is a large market.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 16):
And Cuba is definitely not the same as Hawaii.

What I was saying was that with Hawaii (a mega-popular beach destination) being closer to YVR than the Caribbean, it's not surprising that YVR-Cuba is almost non-existant.

You have yet to explain your position that YVR-Cuba would make sense. Care to elaborate?

[Edited 2015-01-05 20:49:25]
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:53 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 18):

71 weekly flights from YUL to Cuba, but only 2 of it are for Havana.
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:54 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 19):

Lack of demand between Montreal and Beijing?
 
flyyul
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 21):

bigger than you think thekorean
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 21):
Lack of demand between Montreal and Beijing?

Your original post suggesting YVR-HAV makes no mention of Beijing traffic. You simply suggest that YVR-HAV makes more sense than YUL-HAV. That is where I question the logic. No one at all questions that PEK-YVR is a larger market than PEK-YUL, the topic at question is whether the HAV tag is better via YUL or YVR.

Can anyone provide actual PDEW of PEK-YVR/YUL/YYC/YYZ? I know there have been a plethora of Anet threads discussing the possibility of a YUL-PEK route, I believe the numbers looked good, the only hold-up was slot availability at PEK. I could be wrong, but can't seem to find the thread that specifically mentioned the numbers.

[Edited 2015-01-05 21:01:22]

[Edited 2015-01-05 21:55:29]
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CZ326
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:35 am

So if CA is doing PEK-JNB, what's going to happen with SA and their route? Will they be affected by the competition? What sort of passengers does this route take?
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:52 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 23):
Can anyone provide actually PDEW of PEK-YVR/YUL/YYC/YUL-PEK route, I believe the numbers looked good, the only hold-up was slot availability at PEK. I could be wrong, but can't seem to find the thread that specifically mentioned the numbers.
Possibility Of Air China On PEK-YUL? (by thenoflyzone Oct 6 2014 in Civil Aviation)

reply 20.

Glad to see PEK-YUL finally come online, and as predicted, ahead of YYC-PEK.

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 2):
I wonder if they're banking on YUL-HAV traffic to help them fill the plane. While long, a 77W can make PEK-HAV nonstop I imagine.

Absolutely. A 77W is too much metal solely for PEK-YUL. The A332 would have been better for that option. I think CA is definitely banking on the onward connection opportunity to HAV, which is why they are sending the 77W.

[Edited 2015-01-05 21:58:41]
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:59 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 25):
reply 20.

Glad to see PEK-YUL finally come online, and as predicted, ahead of YYC-PEK.

Thank you, so extrapolating on those figures, that would be ~119 PDEW YUL-PEK, ~247 PDEW YUL-China, and ~397 PDEW to China/SE Asia? Hopefully HAV traffic combined with market stimulation will push this new flight into profitability.
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting CZ326 (Reply 24):

SA might cede JNB-PEK to CA. They'll offer two options to PEK instead of one. One via AUH, and other direct on their *A partner
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:05 am

Quoting atal17 (Reply 27):
SA might cede JNB-PEK to CA
SA is bleeding red ink on JNB-PEK. Common sense dictates they drop the route. Unfortunately, SA is government controlled, so common sense goes out the window in these situations.

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 26):
Thank you, so extrapolating on those figures, that would be ~119 PDEW YUL-PEK, ~247 PDEW YUL-China, and ~397 PDEW to China/SE Asia? Hopefully HAV traffic combined with market stimulation will push this new flight into profitability.

Sounds about right.

The non stop from YUL to PEK will stimulate that PDEW figure from the get-go. I wouldn't be surprised if that figure climbs to 150-200 within a year or two because of the non-stop.

[Edited 2015-01-05 22:08:49]
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:34 am

Quoting ghost77 (Reply 9):
Why? It is even slightly longer than via YUL...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=pek-hav,+pek-yul-hav,+pek-yvr-hav

g77

Is it possible, under ETOPS, for the 77W to fly the direct route PEK-YUL over the north pole?
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 6:39 am

Quoting Matt6461 (Reply 29):
Is it possible, under ETOPS, for the 77W to fly the direct route PEK-YUL over the north pole?

ETOPS 120, no.
ETOPS 180, yes.

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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:26 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 21):
Lack of demand between Montreal and Beijing?

not at all...fyi YUL-PEK over the past 12 months had 57,000 pax so there is demand. Plus YUL-HAV does not have AC operating it so in the IATA Winter season in particular, this 5th freedom sector should definitely prove to be popular with Canadian leisure pax going to Cuba.

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
From Beijing (Short-haul):
CA865/6 Beijing-Astana, start from 6-1, B738, 1/3/5/7

this route in particular will enjoy high yields !

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
From Beijing (Long-haul):
CA165/6 Beijing-Melbourne, start from 6-1, A330, 1/3/5/7
CA867/8 Beijing-Johannesburg, start from 6-19, B773, 1/3/5
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5
CA739/40 Beijing-Auckland, start from 10-25, A330, D
CA741/2 Beijing-Mumbai, start from 10-25, A330, 1/3/5/7
CA869/70 Beijing-Addis Ababa, start from 10-25, A330, 1/4/6

From the above list, I feel AKL daily from the on set is too much, as 5 weekly is more than enough for the first year at least !

It will be interesting to see the CA schedule into ADD because it will require a lot of additional onward feed supplied by ET which may result in both CA and ET operating at the same time PEK-ADD !

On top of all this, one can see the A332s being used extensively for these new markets so I hope CA has plans in place to upgrade their premium cabins in particular to a similar standard of their new B77Ws.
 
upwardfacing
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:45 am

Is the PEK-BOM nonstop going to be an addition, or a conversion from the current one-stop service via CTU?
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:01 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 31):
From the above list, I feel AKL daily from the on set is too much, as 5 weekly is more than enough for the first year at least !

Air China will be entering into a strategic alliance with NZ and code sharing on each others routes (CA AKL-PEK & NZ AKL-PVG).
Chinese visitor numbers to New Zealand have increased between 20-30% Year on Year consistently for several years. Migration to New Zealand is also at record highs, with many of these coming from China.
China Eastern commenced service to AKL in December, and is already flying PVG-AKL daily (albeit only over the summer peak). I don't see any problems in CA filling a daily A330 flight.
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:38 am

Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 13):

When Panama is counted as a Caribbean country
BR started flights to the Caribbean earlier than CA did
TPE-LAX-PTY was launched with the 747-400COMBI (which just got retired yesterday) and ended in the early 2000s
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:57 am

Welcome to the six-continent club Air China!

Nice to see them expand to Africa but not surprising considering the amount of traffic there.

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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:09 am

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA727/8 Beijing-Fukuoka, start from 6-1, B738, 1/3/5/7

FUK had has a daily BJS CA service for years now, this must be an extra rotation.
Shame no UK expansion announced, or will CA leave that for HU as has been rumoured recently.
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:31 am

Interesting that they'd go daily to Auckland before Melbourne...
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:45 am

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA729/30 Beijing-Hakodate, start from 6-1, B738, 1/5

This is an interesting route, considering Hakodate is a very small town, and CA already serve CTS 4x weekly. I wonder if this is just a seasonal service for tourists? Hakodate is well known for its seafood and fish markets.

On the other hand, I feel CA is neglecting SE Asia. It flies to a handful of cities, most of which are only served 3-4x weekly.

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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:00 pm

Wow Montreal, that is a long route.
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:03 pm

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5
Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 19):
Quoting thekorean (Reply 18):Its a huge market but AC doesn't fly the route? AC rouge Flies YUL-HOG/CCC/SNU/VRA/CYO
Air Transat flies YUL-HOG/VRA/CMW/CCC/CYO/SNU
Cubana flies YUL-CMW/HOG/SNU/CCC/HAV/SCU/VRA
Sunwing flies YUL-CCC/HOG/SNU/VRA/CYO/MZO/SCU
Westjet flies YUL-VRA

Cuba is a country I would love to visit one day, so thanks for a run down on the carriers serving Cuba from Canada
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting Frostyj (Reply 39):
Wow Montreal, that is a long route.

47 km longer than Montreal's current longest flight, YUL-DOH.

[Edited 2015-01-06 06:06:06]
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:01 pm

Today I got an e-mail from CA with a schedule change to one of my booked flights, CA934 CDG-PEK on Feb 14th. The only change was the arrival time being 20 minutes earlier than before. I briefly got excited that the reason might be a quad used on the route instead of the 777, but seems they just slightly adjusted their schedule.
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA879/80 Beijing-Montreal-Havana, start from 9-20, B773, 1/3/5

Just in case you had any doubts that CA was politically driven 
Quoting thekorean (Reply 18):
Its a huge market but AC doesn't fly the route?
Quoting thekorean (Reply 21):
Lack of demand between Montreal and Beijing?

YULHAV is about 20 PDEW. YULPEK is smaller.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:18 pm

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
CA739/40 Beijing-Auckland, start from 10-25, A330, D

This brings up an interesting implication relating to an older thread about HU rumors. One rumor was about AKL, though one person pointed out that AKL and OAK would be pronounced the same in the language, or osmething? Well, given the one-carrier-per-route policy that China has, that would imply that HU's statement would have been about OAK instead of AKL, or that now they just wouldn't be able to do AKL at all and may not have been looking at OAK at all, despite my thinking that OAK would be a real winner for HU.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
YULHAV is about 20 PDEW. YULPEK is smaller.

Dont know about YULHAV, but YULPEK is definitely not smaller than 20 PDEW.

According to a study done recently, there is demand for close to 45,000 passengers a year between YUL and PEK, that's clearly a lot more than 20 a day each way.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
CA was politically driven

While i do concur that there is some political motivation for the HAV service, I don't believe this flight is 100% politically driven, or else why not start non stop PEK-HAV? 6885 nm, 12751 km. More than doable for a 77W.

There is some good old fashioned capitalistic reasoning behind this flight, whether you want to admit it or not. YUL-Cuba is a huge market, and so is YUL-East Asia, which currently has no non-stop service. Pretty sure this flight will also generate a decent Chinese tourism industry in Cuba. Tie all this up with the fact that AC will be able to codeshare on this flight, and it all makes sense really.

This is not exactly Conviasa that operated Damascus-Caracas all those years!

[Edited 2015-01-06 06:46:44]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
ek241yyz
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:28 pm

RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:18 pm

So uh....fifth freedom on YUL-HAV?
Travel often; getting lost will help you find yourself.
 
upwardfacing
Posts: 423
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:56 am

RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting ek241yyz (Reply 46):
So uh....fifth freedom on YUL-HAV?

Everyone seems to assume so, but so far no official word.
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting ek241yyz (Reply 46):
So uh....fifth freedom on YUL-HAV?

If it is covered under the proposed CA/AC Joint Venture then it won't matter if it is AC or CA metal, both carriers will sell tickets and profit from the flight. So if you want to call it that then yes it would be 5th Freedom if someone books the YUL-HAV flight via CA but not if they booked it through AC. But under a joint venture the 5th Freedom term is mostly semantics.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18162
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Air China Announced 2015 New International Routes

Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 45):
Dont know about YULHAV, but YULPEK is definitely not smaller than 20 PDEW.

Whoops I meant HAVPEK is smaller than HAVYUL.
I don't take responsibility at all

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