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SXDFC
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:27 am

Hello All:

Came across some pictures of what looks like a catering truck slicing through the nose section of an AA A330-200. It appears this one is N288AY.

http://m.imgur.com/a/ApjTk
 
jeffh747
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:30 am

Ouch, that really doesn't look good at all.
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777Jet
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:35 am

Quoting jeffh747 (Reply 1):
Ouch, that really doesn't look good at all.

  

I wonder how long that will take to fix...???
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29erUSA187
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:47 am

Im pretty sure this old news. It was mentioned in the AA Painted A/C thread

However, It was nice to see those newer pics

[Edited 2015-01-07 17:04:23]
 
777X
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:49 am

Didn't that happen a while ago?
 
phlwok
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 3):
Im pretty sure this old news. It was mentioned in the AA Painted A/C thread

It appears to have happened on Dec 1 in CLT, as that's the last time the plane flew: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N288AY
 
AA737-823
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:14 am

I like the caption that says "Might be a total loss ($30 Million)"
Someone tell me where I can find an A330-200 for just $30 million!!!! Where do I sign?!!?!?
I'll lease it to... well, to AA!
 
strfyr51
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:38 am

with good sheetmetal guys it will take 2-3 weeks to repair, However? To get an approved repair scheme from Airbus? It might take up to 10 Days even Beforethey can start work. As the Fwd Pressure Bulkhead and surrounding frame have been destroyed.
This becomes a major repair and will require an Engineering buyoff from Airbus along with the Airworthiness release by the FAA
So this is a Supercritical Repair, But it IS repairable. . .
 
steeler83
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:33 am

Whaaa?? Oh, that's not damage! It has a smiley face! Why it's a salute to the PSA livery! 
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 6):
I like the caption that says "Might be a total loss ($30 Million)"
Someone tell me where I can find an A330-200 for just $30 million!!!! Where do I sign?!!?!?
I'll lease it to... well, to AA!

Ebay, perhaps?

You might want to check the fine print; engines not included,  
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
PHLapproach
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:43 am

I saw the initial photos the night of the accident. I pegged it at 2-3 months that night. Here we are more than one month later and still not repaired. I'm figured when I saw photos the first time that it probably does not look pretty in the E/E Bay. Probably extensive damage to some boxes in there.

But as far as a write off. Just can't see it. Frame is only 1.5 yrs old. Should have some very good value still left in her.

[Edited 2015-01-07 19:44:14]
 
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777Jet
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:49 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 8):
with good sheetmetal guys it will take 2-3 weeks to repair, However? To get an approved repair scheme from Airbus? It might take up to 10 Days even Beforethey can start work. As the Fwd Pressure Bulkhead and surrounding frame have been destroyed.
This becomes a major repair and will require an Engineering buyoff from Airbus along with the Airworthiness release by the FAA
So this is a Supercritical Repair, But it IS repairable. . .

Thanks for those insights...  
Quoting phlwok (Reply 5):
It appears to have happened on Dec 1 in CLT, as that's the last time the plane flew: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N288AY
Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 10):
I pegged it at 2-3 months that night. Here we are more than one month later and still not repaired.

So it has been out of service for at least 5 weeks now... Hopefully somebody knows more on what is happening progress wise with this bird and when it is likely to fly again.

I am also interested to know what happened to the person(s) responsible for the damage??? But that kind of info is most likely 'top secret'  
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Flighty
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:23 am

$30 million strikes me as a good ballpark for the check somebody's going to write to fix it. Maybe $10 million... still, yeesh.

[Edited 2015-01-07 20:24:50]
 
HPRamper
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:57 am

How much pressure do catering crews work under to be cutting things this close? They always seem to be the ones bombing around the airport at full speed, passing people in drive lanes, ignoring right of way in taxi lanes, etc. They regularly cut off planes trying to push out. Is it training, or just a general "hurry up" attitude?
 
777STL
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:02 am

Forward pressure bulkhead gashed, yeah, that's going to be an expensive fix.
PHX based
 
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airportugal310
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):

I'd say it's all "hurry up". Can't imagine that even common sense, nevermind training, would say it's ok to drive fast with a provisioning truck let alone drive that close to a section of a plane with no door nearby.

Pee test anyone?
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ssteve
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 11):

I am also interested to know what happened to the person(s) responsible for the damage??? But that kind of info is most likely 'top secret'

It's sort of moot. I'm more curious what sort of incentives the insurers think are worthwhile to prevent this sort of thing. Higher salaries? More training?
 
SXDFC
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:52 am

I apologize for the old news reporting, thought it was a recent event up until I saw someone mention this happened on December 1.
 
migair54
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:40 am

That's a very difficult part to fix, it's going to be expensive and quite complicated. The truck cut the fuselage like a hot knife in butter.

I don't understand why the driver was passing so close, a catering truck making damage close to the doors or even close to the wing can be understood as a big mistake, but this one is unacceptable.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
$30 million strikes me as a good ballpark for the check somebody's going to write to fix it. Maybe $10 million... still, yeesh.

Repair, testing and lack of revenue for the unscheduled maintenance, but still 10 million $ is too much,
 
32andBelow
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:41 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 18):
ack of revenue for the unscheduled maintenance,

Have they continued to cancel flights, or has it been picked up by res A/C?
 
ikramerica
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:55 am

How does a catering truck hit with that much force?
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migair54
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:01 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 19):
Have they continued to cancel flights, or has it been picked up by res A/C?

I'm not sure, but a plane on ground doesn't make money, even if covered by other planes this plane can't perform it's role, so they're losing money.
 
32andBelow
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:02 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 21):
I'm not sure, but a plane on ground doesn't make money, even if covered by other planes this plane can't perform it's role, so they're losing money.

If all scheduled flights are covered and operated then there is no revenue loss. There are planned spares, doesn't matter if different planes are in MX or the same one for a while. It may cause future MX costs due to having to re-arrange checks, but without cancellations all the revenue will be captured.
 
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N14AZ
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:15 am

Quoting SXDFC (Thread starter):
Came across some pictures of what looks like a catering truck slicing through the nose section of an AA A330-200. It appears this one is N288AY.

http://m.imgur.com/a/ApjTk

Stupid question of mine: I am watching pictures of airliners for almost four decades but I cannot remember that I ever saw the aircraft's type name below the nose. Is this eventually related to the fact that this is a rather new type for AA and to help ground crews in identifying the type?
 
insightAVIATION
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:10 am

Well they already had it with AWE as you can see over here:

https://www.airliners.net/photo/US-Airways/Airbus-A330-243/2461425/L/

So I gues it might just be an AWE thing and I don't think it is AA ground crews getting used to it, as they'll have seen an A332 before and they are likely to be old AWE ground crew if they are asked to look after an A332.
 
theaviator380
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:23 am

Might sound rude, but if driver found guilty? sack-able offense?

What's the need going so close to the nose of the aircraft? unless mechanical failure or truck driver was incapacitated suddenly? As investigation point of view, I am sure AA must be looking even into case of sabotage?

Thanks.
 
visualapproach
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:45 am

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 25):
As investigation point of view, I am sure AA must be looking even into case of sabotage?

Yes, must be.. let's get NCIS Los Angeles on the case. Maybe Poirot could help too.
 
theaviator380
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:09 am

Quoting visualapproach (Reply 26):

Thanks for poor attempt of sarcasm. Didn't get what was the need for that? any accident/investigation would be covering all aspects I guess.
 
insightAVIATION
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:34 am

It's not just the fwd bulkhead being damaged, apparently the flight deck window doesn't shut anymore and the front door doesn't either. Taking a not so wild guess this would mean that large parts of the Fwd Avionics Bay are also damaged, making the damage even more expensive and extensive as they'd probably have to check ALL electronics wires again, which is usually done during final assembly before body parts are joined as it is so difficult when doing it on the completed plane. It's fine to have to check for one computer, but when you have to do it for almost all computers it will get VERY costly, so I think a write off is actually very likely.

EDIT: According to a guy on a Facebook aviation group, this is $200m worth of damage!

[Edited 2015-01-08 03:36:18]
 
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moo
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting insightAVIATION (Reply 28):
EDIT: According to a guy on a Facebook aviation group, this is $200m worth of damage!

That sounds like almost as much as the aircraft cost in the first place, so I'd take it with a pinch of salt.
 
usairways85
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:42 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 19):
Have they continued to cancel flights, or has it been picked up by res A/C?

Fortunately it is the winter when the 330 flies a lot of non TA routes like PHL-CUN/SJU/MCO/MIA/CLT/PUJ. They can adjust capacity on these routes with out necessarily requiring a 332 to pick up the slack.
 
stlAV8R
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 23):
Stupid question of mine: I am watching pictures of airliners for almost four decades but I cannot remember that I ever saw the aircraft's type name below the nose. Is this eventually related to the fact that this is a rather new type for AA and to help ground crews in identifying the type?

This is typically done to identify different series of the same type (i.e. A330-200 vs A330-300) for ground servicing. The A330-200 usually stops on a different stop line so things like the boarding bridge, PC Air, and potable water can reach (or in the same token not to far into the gate that the boarding bridge can't dock).
 
flightsimer
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 25):

Most definitely! I believe the standard procedure pretty much at all airports in any vehicle incident is driver surrenders their security badge and is immediately tested for drugs/alcohol at the very least. At the company I worked at, they pretty much flat out said if you hit a plane, you are pretty much done no matter what.

The only way I can see this driver not getting fired over it was if some outside force other than his driving caused it to happen, but I doubt that was the case.
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
AAR90
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 23):
Stupid question of mine: I am watching pictures of airliners for almost four decades but I cannot remember that I ever saw the aircraft's type name below the nose. Is this eventually related to the fact that this is a rather new type for AA and to help ground crews in identifying the type?

Not related to anything AA since it is NOT an AA aircraft. All AmericanAirlines GROUP A330 aircraft are owned/operated by USAir. The only Airbus aircraft AA owns/operates are A319/321.   
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Someone83
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:38 pm

Seems like the catering guy decided to give the poor airplane a Glasgow smile......
 
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TheRedBaron
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:03 pm

Considering the damage to the bulkhead and the Electronics bay, Id say the repair is beyond economic reason. Sadly it will be a write off. The event of a failure on the repair would mean a catastrophic accident due to explosive decompression (there have been 2 fatal and tragic accidents related to bulkhead repair), so I bet insurance will pay, and the aircraft will be used as spares.. and YES it looks like the OLD PSA smiling planes....or the Nok banana beak color Scheme (Smile).

TRB
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zeke
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting insightAVIATION (Reply 28):

It's not just the fwd bulkhead being damaged, apparently the flight deck window doesn't shut anymore and the front door doesn't either. Taking a not so wild guess this would mean that large parts of the Fwd Avionics Bay are also damaged, making the damage even more expensive and extensive as they'd probably have to check ALL electronics wires again, which is usually done during final assembly before body parts are joined as it is so difficult when doing it on the completed plane

Despite what someone said above, I dont think it is a 2 week fix, I think it would need a replacement of the whole front section structurally as numerous longerons would have been bent and cut. Would then be more economical to write it off and sell of the good bits, avionincs, engines, intereior etc.

Quoting someone83 (Reply 34):

Seems like the catering guy decided to give the poor airplane a Glasgow smile......

It was a mobile set of stairs on a truck, the type they would use for a passenger door, the majority of the damage you see is from the handrail.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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Moose135
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 36):
It was a mobile set of stairs on a truck, the type they would use for a passenger door

Not from the photos in the original link.

See this...

http://i.imgur.com/hp1k0Je.jpg
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washingtonflyer
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 3:20 pm

Heh, as someone else posted, it looks like a crude attempt of putting a PSA smile on a US Airways aircraft (which is known to happen).
 
strfyr51
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting insightAVIATION (Reply 28):
According to a guy on a Facebook aviation group, this is $200m worth of damage!

Naaah, We fixed a jet blue airplane that had a Reverser depart the airplane, removed and repaired BOTH Pylons and it didn't cost Nearly that.
If that Repair is anywhere beyond 30 Million then they spent 15Million in a Casino!!
We replaced an ENTIRE Avionics rack due to A fuselage damage and had an ENTIRE 737 Empenage replaced after a cleaning truck hit an airplane and the Bill came to 56 Million from the Boeing AOG team.
There are GOOD sheetmetal and Avionics types at American USAir Delta and United that could fix that airplane.
We've replaced Entire Rear Spars on 737-300's In OUR Hangars At SFO with OUR OWM Sheetmetal Crews.
That airplane might require 8-11 million in Parts alone Including any Avionics..
The Electronics rack CAN be disassembled and removed from the fwd electronics bay, the wiring can be repaired or replaced.
USAir is Not a "two Bit" airline.
I've seen FAR worse Damage repaired than that Like the Air China 747sp that went Supersonic in a dive.
The Captain Lowered the Gear to recover and the Gear doors took off 8 ft of each horiziontal Stabilizer .
The Airplane was in the Hangar at SFO being repaired by the Boeing AOG team for 6.5 Months.
Or? The United B727-122 in Hawaii that the Fwd cargo door came open and ripped up the RT. side of the airplane .
Boeing replaced the FWD Cargo door , Re-skinned the fwd fuselage and replaced 16 floor beams and Joists that
buckled along with removing and rebuilding the #3 and #4 Pylons. No!! That airplane can be repaired and USAir can do it.
And if they Can't then American CAN,, And that I'd Guarantee!!
 
Flighty
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 42):
The Captain Lowered the Gear to recover and the Gear doors took off 8 ft of each horiziontal Stabilizer .

Holy S///! That's amazing.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 35):
Sadly it will be a write off. The event of a failure on the repair would mean a catastrophic accident due to explosive decompression (there have been 2 fatal and tragic accidents related to bulkhead repair), so I bet insurance will pay, and the aircraft will be used as spares..

Perhaps, so in this thread, let's remember a new Airbus has high parts value. The repair bill of say 20-30 million need only exceed the _difference_ between new aircraft value and its relatively high scrapping value. This decision isn't based on new aircraft price alone.

And, your point is well taken. Scrapping is a less bad solution than a failed or uninsurable repair. The most attractive solution may be a bulkhead _replacement_ if that is possible.

[Edited 2015-01-08 08:15:41]
 
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william
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 13):
How much pressure do catering crews work under to be cutting things this close? They always seem to be the ones bombing around the airport at full speed, passing people in drive lanes, ignoring right of way in taxi lanes, etc. They regularly cut off planes trying to push out. Is it training, or just a general "hurry up" attitude?

When I used to work for airline catering company (back when airlines used to serve food...........shocking I know), we were told its $10K a minute fine to the company when we delayed an aircraft. Speed limit was 30 mph out on the tarmac, and I remember the sign in our break room, $100 for every mile caught over that, $300 base ticket, the cop with the radar was up in the control tower......A lot of running and a lot of hustling but the flight attendants were cool , the pilots.............errrrr...........Fun times though. The driver that hit that plane..........Teamsters wouldn't be able to save him or her.
 
nasmal
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:30 pm

This can definitely be repaired. New FWD pressure bulkhead, few new skins, few splices, stringers, a lot of NDI for cracks, a few hi/lo blow tests and you should be good to go!
 
Flighty
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting william (Reply 44):
A lot of running and a lot of hustling but the flight attendants were cool , the pilots.............errrrr...........Fun times though

Ive been on catering duty at a major airport... it was like careening around Baghdad, the staff just arent highly trained necesssarily, they are largely footsoldiers. The budgets are razor thin. The staffing can be patchy. You pressure them (and there can be _huge_ pressure) you get uncertain results.
 
maxpower1954
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:02 pm

I spoke with a friend of mine who is an A & P in Heavy MX in CLT, here's the real info.

N288AY is going to be repaired. Right now they are finishing an engineering evaluation to determine who does the work, Airbus AOG team or US in-house. My buddy says it's looking like it will be done by US. It's getting a "C" check early since it's down anyway and the electronic flight bag mod. The damage was done late at night on the CLT hangar ramp by a contract cleaning truck. The damage is in the 30 million range.

Russ Farris

[Edited 2015-01-08 10:08:29]
 
Maverick623
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 25):
Might sound rude, but if driver found guilty? sack-able offense?

Sounds like the driver was employed by an outside contract company, in a right-to-work state. The brakes and steering could have failed and he'd probably still be canned.

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 25):
As investigation point of view, I am sure AA must be looking even into case of sabotage?

Investigations cover all angles, including intentions.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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TheRedBaron
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:28 pm

Holy cow 30 million!!! Is it better to write it off, sell the parts and keep the $$$ instead of pouring another 30 mil to an already expensive Aircraft....

Just asking...

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Maverick623
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 49):
Holy cow 30 million!!! Is it better to write it off, sell the parts and keep the $$$ instead of pouring another 30 mil to an already expensive Aircraft....

Repair estimates are often vastly overinflated. Most count ALL the labor costs (which a lot of would have been spent on the mechanics regardless, instead of just counting the overtime required), parts costs (legitimate), and a figure known as "time out of service". Basically they look at what the plane would have flown (even if there's a spare), and add up whatever revenue they made (or think they could have made).
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
ikramerica
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 50):
Repair estimates are often vastly overinflated. Most count ALL the labor costs (which a lot of would have been spent on the mechanics regardless, instead of just counting the overtime required), parts costs (legitimate), and a figure known as "time out of service". Basically they look at what the plane would have flown (even if there's a spare), and add up whatever revenue they made (or think they could have made).

Does an Airline like AA self-insure for damage like this? Obviously not for liability, but this kind of thing?

As for what you say, it's pretty standard practice. My sister-in-law's business burned down over christmas, and their insurance will pay out two parts: rebuild of the building, and restart and maintain the business. So the total claim is over 50% more than the cost of the building alone, as the insurance will pay for rent on temporary space, new equipment and buildout of that space, payroll while no income is being generated, moving expenses from the temporary to permanent space, etc. for up to 12 months.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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CALTECH
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
How does a catering truck hit with that much force?

Amazing, the AA incident appears to be a case of not making sure proper clearance is kept from the aircraft, the UPS one looks like a failure to check brakes before approaching the aircraft,....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLd-qw6bCRw
You are here.
 
HPRamper
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AA A330-200 Damaged In CLT

Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:35 pm

Quoting william (Reply 44):
When I used to work for airline catering company (back when airlines used to serve food...........shocking I know), we were told its $10K a minute fine to the company when we delayed an aircraft.

10K a minute fine? That sounds like negative motivation, not truthfulness. We've had delays due to vendors and it generally results in a nastygram and maybe some terse phone calls but not much else.

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