CanadianNorth
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Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:18 am

Read this earlier today and didn't see it posted anywhere. Interesting little piece on live aircraft to ground data streaming, though it seems hard to believe that if the technology is not only there but already approved and flying, that only one airline in the entire world is using it...

Quote:
Technology that could have solved the mystery of the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 is currently used by only one airline in the world: First Air, which flies in the Canadian Arctic.

The system, made by Calgary tech company FLYHT Aerospace Solutions, has been around for about five years.

Also interesting to note an actual price range is given, and it's certainly less than many "experts" like to argue...

Quote:
Installing AFIRS on an aircraft costs $120,000. The data-streaming system costs an additional $100 per month per plane.

Full article from CBC North : http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/...black-box-data-streaming-1.2891893
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777Jet
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting CanadianNorth (Thread starter):
Also interesting to note an actual price range is given, and it's certainly less than many "experts" like to argue...

Quote:
Installing AFIRS on an aircraft costs $120,000. The data-streaming system costs an additional $100 per month per plane.

Well in the wake of MH370 which is still missing after 10 months, if such technology has already been tested / approved and only costs as much as the article quotes, then I too am surprised that it is not being used more widely...
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rcair1
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:46 am

Quoting CanadianNorth (Thread starter):
streaming, though it seems hard to believe that if the technology is not only there but already approved and flying, that only one airline in the entire world is using it...

Can it be turned off?
If so - it may have made no difference - depending on what theory you subscribe too.
rcair1
 
durangomac
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:13 am

Interesting but here is a key bit of information.

Quote:
■The FLYHTStream, which streams data from an aircraft to the ground in real time. The data streaming is automatically triggered when the AFIRS detects a predefined abnormal event, and can also be turned on by the flight crew or by ground personnel.

The system isn't sending data 100% of the time. I'm not sure what the triggers are that AFIRS would trigger a live data stream to start but I bet we get into a situation where there won't be enough radio frequencies/sat channels available to stream all the data all the time for every commercial aircraft.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:14 am

According to the article:

Quote:
The data streaming is automatically triggered when the AFIRS detects a predefined abnormal event, and can also be turned on by the flight crew or by ground personnel.

Nowhere does it say the crew can turn it off, but then again I'm sure there's always the trusty old silence by circuit breaker trick...
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airmale
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:55 am

Qatar Airways CEO is also pushing for this to become an industry standard:

http://atwonline.com/avionics/qatar-...ushes-live-aircraft-data-streaming
.....up there with the best!
 
spacecadet
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:04 pm

If MH370 had had this system, I suspect we'd all just be debating whether it had been switched off in mid-flight along with the transponder, or whether it had burned up in the same fire. I don't see how this would have solved that accident.

Also, the costs seem pretty much exactly what I've seen quoted here. $120,000 per plane, $100 per month per plane is a lot of money. In the United States alone, just installing this would be a $1 billion investment, with a $1 million per month ongoing cost. That's one country.

I'm not someone who believes safety should be sacrificed in the name of profit, but I'm also not someone who believes throwing money at a problem is always the solution to that problem, especially when there's no case I can think of where the proposed solution would have actually solved anything that ADS-B didn't.
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dtw2hyd
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:21 pm

Any event triggered data transmission mechanism is subject to failure. It has to at regular intervals, self contained and tamper proof.

Initial cost is way high, dependent on Iridium which may not be there, switching to different service provider costs another $100k.

I kind of lean towards Automatic deploy able floatable voice data recorder which records crash event coordinates, ejects from plane, survives on land and water, send signal to Satellites, like DRS2100.

Until then handhed HF Radio/SatPhone to purser might be good idea. When flight crew is busy, rather than just praying they can tell ops center something is wrong. Basically I don't know what is going on in the front office, if I loose you send rescue.

Also aviate, navigate, communicate ran its course. If you want cavalry to the rescue start communicating to save your own life and pax. Life is more important than pride and privacy.
 
Flighty
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 9):
Also, the costs seem pretty much exactly what I've seen quoted here. $120,000 per plane, $100 per month per plane is a lot of money. In the United States alone, just installing this would be a $1 billion investment, with a $1 million per month ongoing cost. That's one country.

The cost is very low, as you mention. $100 per month is nothing. The toilet paper costs more.

General Motors deploys an airbag-activated, GPS-enabled automatic rescue including GPS coordinates and fault codes in all cars AFAIK. If a Chevrolet can do it, a 787 can do it.

[Edited 2015-01-09 10:37:20]
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:11 pm

Electronic tracking will happen. The price is about right. Governments and the public are about to demand it. It is unacceptable that we cannot find planes that have gone down. Even where radar is tracking planes that tracking disappears as the plane loses altitude.
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airnorth
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:21 pm

I really don't understand the opposition to having a system that does exactly what is happening right now on First Air's fleet.
Sure there are cost involved, but obviously some operators look at it as an additional layer of safety, and or the ability to find a plane in the case of an emergency.
Time is always critical in finding survivors, and since there is already a great deal of emergency equipment on board aircraft to help passengers survive in the event of a survivable crash, like life jackets, life rafts, first aid kits, communication equipment, emergency rations, etc., why not have the ability to locate the plane accurately and quickly? It seems odd to spend money on survivors, and then not be able to find them in time.

What are the numbers for ships, planes, helicopters, personnel, on ground mob and demob so far just to locate the Air Asia site?

I'm just saying, that there are real and large costs in not having a reliable real time tracking system in place.
Please keep in mind that I am just a lay person with now background at all in Aviation.
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting airnorth (Reply 14):
I really don't understand the opposition to having a system that does exactly what is happening right now on First Air's fleet.

I'll only comment on the system First Air uses: Developed and installed by Flyht Aeerospace Solutions. It uses the Iridium satellite network which is 1980's technology. Evidently it works OK for First Air's 18 aircraft. Try putting 5000 aircraft in the air all using this same system. The Iridium network (which as I understand already has a bandwidth problem) would crash (not literly). Iridium has a plan for new satellites. Hope they have enough capital because the costs are astronomical.

OK I lied, another comment: All those satcom companies (Flyht, Iridium, Globalstar, Inmarsat etc) that claim they could have a system up and running within the next couple of years, have translucent $$$$ signs layered over their assessments. A small number of subscribers maybe, but 5000 aircraft all flying at the same time and streaming data every 4 or 5 minutes, highly doubtful. But you are entitled to believe them.

Nothing will be developed or installed unless it's mandated by Congress (in the US) and then the FAA. Airline travel has never been safer and that is what the airlines will say if hearings are EVER held regarding mandating systems like this.

Quoting airnorth (Reply 14):
like life jackets, life rafts, first aid kits, communication equipment, emergency rations, etc.,

..rations..?? Water, yes but chocolate bars maybe? not on the list. Better grab a bag of peanuts on the way out.
 
Flighty
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting airnorth (Reply 14):
I'm just saying, that there are real and large costs in not having a reliable real time tracking system in place.
Please keep in mind that I am just a lay person with now background at all in Aviation.

AFAIK, rental car companies, Uber, etc know exactly where their assets are in realtime. Aircraft are more important. Airlines don't have realtime data? That era needs to come to an end. Satcom is the only hurdle, and it is a major one.

But that is what engineers are for. This isn't out of reach and in truth, hasn't been out of reach for 20+ years.

[Edited 2015-01-09 12:25:45]
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
AFAIK, rental car companies, Uber, etc know exactly where their assets are in realtime. Aircraft are more important. Airlines don't have realtime data?

Uber and many others live in a much easier technological world than airlines.
You are comparing apples to oranges.

Now let's say airlines want this technology and want to put it on their planes. Then you have different operating environments they could have.
It is a vastly different technological problem to outfit a domestic US flight from IAH-ORD than it is to do one that is flying from LAX-SYD. One is over land and can take advantage of all communications available to it (ie Gogo) vs one over the pacific that is operating under ETOPS rules and can be over an hour to a divert point.
Then you have to deal with scenarios where you cross-borders of countries, like what regularly happens in North America, where a simple flight from MSP or ORD to BOS or EWR sometimes goes into Canadian airspace. All of these are things that Uber does not have to contend with but airlines do.

Let's not think this is such an easy problem to solve. Ultimately, the solution will be one that is determined by the market and if we did not learn from the airlines adoption of wifi, the first to market will probably fail and the solutions later to market will win because they have made it lower cost or some other benefit they 1st to market solution couldn't.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
AFAIK, rental car companies, Uber, etc know exactly where their assets are in realtime. Aircraft are more important. Airlines don't have realtime data? That era needs to come to an end. Satcom is the only hurdle, and it is a major one.

may i introduce you to http://www.flightradar24.com/ ?
Worked quite well with QZ8501. And it worked with MH370 to the last known position. ADS-B already exists.  
At least, until things turn sour.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 16):
AFAIK, rental car companies, Uber, etc know exactly where their assets are in realtime. Aircraft are more important. Airlines don't have realtime data? That era needs to come to an end.

All of those companies are using cellular technology which is a sizeable amount cheaper than the sat technology aircraft would need. Plus the installation costs aren't near comparable. For the most part too there is real time data provided by ADS-B and radar. There is nothing that says this tracking software would have made Air Asia easier to find, nor that it is tamper proof to where Malaysia would have been found.

I can see this possibly being required for overwater operations where there is a lack of radar coverage. But I have a hard time believing it will ever be required in a radar environment. It's just an unneeded extra. If you are worried about loss of radar contact the better, not to mention cheaper idea, would be to prevent transponders from being able to be turned off. Something along the lines of a reset only option.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
airnorth
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 15):
..rations..?? Water, yes but chocolate bars maybe? not on the list. Better grab a bag of peanuts on the way out.

I thought I read that somewhere on anet, that airlines that fly over areas of the high arctic are required to carry a certain amount of food, in the event of an unplanned landing, I could be wrong though. It probably is peanuts, and chocolate bars, but I'm sure it was noted somewhere.

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 15):
But you are entitled to believe them.

Thanks!

I use iridium quite often, and have for years, and it seems to work fine, so far it seems to be as stable as our cell phone and high speed internet infrastructure.

I still think that soon aviation will either be legislated to use, or Operators will voluntarily install and use updated technology, it really only a matter of time before it becomes mainstream.
 
airnorth
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:41 pm

Here is another similar system used by a couple of smaller Canadian operators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kC28GWdagKw

Again, it seems as if these type of systems do provide value to some operators, as some anet posters have noted, perhaps this type of tracking is not required for all.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:48 pm

It is very unlikely real time streaming will ever become common. Few reasons

1) Inmarsat's near monopoly. It is still making money with 20 year old satellites (8 years past their EOL). It has little incentive. Both US and EU Governments heavily dependent on Inmarsat and they will do nothing to change that relationship.

2) Iridium supposed to be the competitor never lived up to Inmarsat. If I recall correctly it needs $5 Billion over next few years just to replace existing satellites in the constellation. We have to wait and see.

3) Elon Musk/Greg Wyler combo is probably the best hope west has for cheaper bandwidth. Nothing much happened so far. Inmarsat is also SpaceX customer. Very unlikely SpaceX will go against its own customer.

http://www.theverge.com/science/2014...etting-into-the-satellite-business
http://www.inmarsat.com/press-releas...-spacex-future-satellite-launches/

4) Regional networks owned by governments providing cheap/no cost tracking to their own carriers. India very likely candidate. As part of its Satelittle Based Navigation System will have 3 communication satellites (2 launched) and 7 GPS satellites (3 launched). It developed its own SBAS receiver.

GPS-aided_geo-augmented_navigation" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS-aided_geo-augmented_navigation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_...gional_Navigation_Satellite_System
 
SimonDanger
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 12:56 am

Frankly, I'm confused. Did I miss where a thread subject had to be vetted by senior A-netters before it was permitted to be posted and commented on? It's perplexing. Don't like a thread? Don't read it. What purpose is gained by doing a drive-by insult to people who find this thread intellectually stimulating? I'm starting to think there is something more to this "never question how airlines do what they do" hostility.

Moving along. If I read the article correctly, the Canadian airline uses an abnormal flight envelope threshold to initiate an immediate, priority data dump. It does not use it to continuously stream data.

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 15):
"...A small number of subscribers maybe, but 5000 aircraft all flying at the same time and streaming data every 4 or 5 minutes, highly doubtful. But you are entitled to believe them..."

This is a bit of a straw man argument in that if used as described above, there could be 50,000 aircraft flying in a given area and only enough bandwidth and memory storage for a single aircraft in crisis would be needed.

But if it can be turned off, what good is it? Don't let it be. Install it in a self contained fire-proof box, and make it use batteries, same as FDR & CVRS.

Addressing the scarcity of satellites, land-based receivers could be co-located at airports across the country. In large ocean expanses ships traverse these waters daily, and could be part of a future network, perhaps also utilizing weather, tsunami and science buoys sprinkled throughout all major seas and oceans. The first step in problem solving is not saying "this problem is un-solvable." Apollo 13 comes to mind.

Lastly, if a new technology isn't required by the FAA, it needn't die there. Use a clear market incentive, like "Install AFIRS and governments will assume the bulk of SAR and recovery costs. Don't want to install it, your Airline will go out of business after one accident." No board of directors alive would take that bankruptcy risk, nevermind an airline insurance company.

Just my thoughts.
 
Derik737
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:43 am

AFIRS isn't some new gee-whiz technology. The same functionality can be accomplished on thousands of airplanes today that are equipped with an Aircraft Condition Monitoring System and a satellite transport medium such as Iridium or Inmarsat. Many airlines use this system to trigger automated on-condition reports such as engine failure, turbulence, position, etc. The ACMS is connected to the ACARS system and passes the generated reports through the ACARS Communications Management Unit (CMU) to the ground. ACARS is typically programmed to use VHF when in range due to cost, but will switch to the Satellite Data Unit (if installed) when out of VHF range.

AFIRS Is really just an ACMS and Iridiuim Transceiver all in one unit.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 6):
I suggest then another on ejection seats for the occupants of all airliners...

Put them in helicopters too and make sure they are ejected straight up  
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 22):
It is very unlikely real time streaming will ever become common. Few reasons

Two other reasons:

If it can't be turned off then pilots will complain that they don't have full control of the systems in the event that they need to turn system off - unless it has its own power source and is not connected to any of the other systems.

And...

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 2):

Can it be turned off?
If so - it may have made no difference - depending on what theory you subscribe too.

  
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CanadianNorth
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 15):
..rations..??

The HS-748s I work on do carry rations. There is a bright yellow case carried in the rear of the cabin and if I remember correctly it has enough ration cookies (they are little nutritious chunks, but do look and taste like buttery cookies) to keep a full load of 40 passengers going for three days. The box also contains some basic supplies such as a couple survival blankets, some waterproof matches, etc.

I know it's better than some aircraft have, but I often think it would be nice to have a couple more days worth. My personal opinion is always fly knowing that a crash an happen any time, and (based on the areas of the world I usually fly over) if it does happen I hope for a quick rescue but expect to be there for a while. I'm not at all trying to put down the search and rescue guys and girls, I only base that on my limited experience of trying to see old crash sites, and after that I think if anything they deserve twice what they make. One time that comes to mind it took us two or three passes to find an old wreck in nice weather when the pilot flying already knew roughly where it was, so I can only imagine how difficult it would be if you didn't have someone on board who already knew where to look. After that experiencing that I'm actually amazed they manage find some of these crash sites at all.

Carrying some form of survival kit is in many cases required by Canadian Aviation Regulations anyway, as per:

Quote:
602.61 (1) Subject to subsection (2), no person shall operate an aircraft over land unless there is carried on board survival equipment, sufficient for the survival on the ground of each person on board, given the geographical area, the season of the year and anticipated seasonal climatic variations, that provides...
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/acts-regulations/regulations-sor96-433.htm#
HS-748, like a 747 but better!
 
AA777
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:22 am

Quoting durangomac (Reply 3):
The system isn't sending data 100% of the time. I'm not sure what the triggers are that AFIRS would trigger a live data stream to start but I bet we get into a situation where there won't be enough radio frequencies/sat channels available to stream all the data all the time for every commercial aircraft.

Even I its not sending data 100% of the time, a data ping every 1, 5, or even 10 minutes would have given us a MUCH better idea about what happened to MH370. I don't think this is necessary for non-etops aircraft, but it seems that we should be keeping better track of airplanes that are crossing large bodies of water for extended periods of time.


AA777
 
RetiredWeasel
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:43 am

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 26):
There is a bright yellow case carried in the rear of the cabin and if I remember correctly it has enough ration cookies (they are little nutritious chunks

I hope nobody is required to indulge in that feast.
Part 121 regs just requre 'a survival kit appropriately equipped for the route to be flown' which I assure you doesn't contain any food.. or MRE's or chocolate bars. I think it does have a few fish hooks though.

Interestingly, Part 125 regs (Large private aircraft) does have a requirement for food rations for extended over water ops.

As I inferred before, US airlines will only meet the minimum FAA requirements regarding crash/survivor equipment. That would include optional data streaming unless it somehow saved them money or added revenue. At least that was my experience flying 20 years with a major.
 
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kanban
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:25 am

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 11):

you should have put it in the tech forum if you wanted intelligent discussion..

but since it's here.. if every commercial plane had this operating on every flight, where would you store all that data.. and then try to find the relevant pieces on the one out of a million (or higher) times you needed it.. considering for every plane that goes missing in the drink, 500 crunch the ground and the system isn't necessary..and a few million never need it.

two answers that are not acceptable are:
1) we're entitled to know (no you're not)
2) think of the families (we don't think of the families every time someone dies on the road, in wars, famine, illness or naturally.. and commercial passengers are no different.. they are just a smaller population where the numbers are within most peoples grasp)
 
KD5MDK
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:33 am

It seems to me the primary contribution to this thread is to provide a price to use when making discussions.

The flip side is maybe aviation is too safe for the amount it costs and we should divert some money from aviation safety to more cost effective ways of saving lives.
 
rwessel
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:54 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 29):
but since it's here.. if every commercial plane had this operating on every flight, where would you store all that data.. and then try to find the relevant pieces on the one out of a million (or higher) times you needed it.. considering for every plane that goes missing in the drink, 500 crunch the ground and the system isn't necessary..and a few million never need it.

That's pretty much the least of the worries. If each of 30,000 airliners (there aren't that many), flew 12 hours per day (they don't), and transmitted a kilobyte of data each minute, they'd generate on the order of 22GB per day, or some 8TB per year. Storing that in something database-like would probably result in a several-fold expansion of required space, although it would hardly be necessary to do so (a simple chronological log of the received status bursts would likely be sufficient). OTOH, why would anyone store this data for more than a few months? Or even a month?

Searching a few TB of data is trivial as well, more so since, as you said, it's not going to have to be done very often. And since we will always know the timeframe of the flight, we'd always be able to limit the search to a few GB of data.

Nor is it likely that the data for all airliners for the entire planet are going to be stored on a single system.

And even if the amount of data grows significantly, we're not talking particularly large amounts of storage, even counting the necessary replication for reliability.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 29):
if every commercial plane had this operating on every flight, where would you store all that data.. and then try to find the relevant pieces on the one out of a million (or higher) times you needed it.. considering for every plane that goes missing in the drink, 500 crunch the ground and the system isn't necessary..and a few million never need it.



Storage wise, as mentioned above, there are ways to do it. Simply listing it either by aircraft or by time would probably work, and as far as finding it one would think that would be easy with today's (even a few years' ago) technology. How much information is on the internet and how long does it take to find exactly what you need through a Google search? Clearly the technology is there, and First Air has clearly demonstrated that although it's not cheap, it's not as expensive as some like to think either. Besides, it would only need to be stored relatively short term, I'm sure 30 days would be plenty, heck seven days would be plenty. Information that is actually needed in a search and rescue operation would be dug up most likely within the first day or two, and that particular information can then be saved elsewhere.

As for the ground vs drink I don't see why that matters. There has been many cases where aircraft have crashed on land and it took days, sometimes weeks, in a few cases months to find the wreckage. It still happens every now and again (though to be fair I haven't heard this situation happening to modern aircraft) where some people out for a bush hike stumble across the wreckage of an aircraft that's been missing for decades...
HS-748, like a 747 but better!
 
Flighty
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:07 pm

Instead of these universal requirements, why don't we only include flights over deep water? Say, as an EOW requirement. This will make the data needs more feasible to cover with existing sats.

Indonesia will likely have the greatest such quantity of flights. Locating crashes on land hasn't been a big problem.

Edit: now, canadiannorth, it is daunting to find a lost Cessna somewhere in the great Canadian or Russian North. But there are beacons for that now, IIRC.

[Edited 2015-01-10 07:10:20]
 
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kanban
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 27):

that's what we used to say before computers.. "we can always find space for more file cabinets"..

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 28):
Besides, it would only need to be stored relatively short term, I'm sure 30 days would be plenty, heck seven days would be plenty.

the problem with data storage is that what can be stored will be forever.. some lawyer, regulatory desk sitter or legislative wienie will find some obscure use for the data even if it's "just in case" and you're stuck with it.. second, how secure will it be? could a hacker accessing the data compromise the aircraft instruments?
in your post, you note a day or two to retrieve.. unfortunately if a plane goes down, the ambulance chasers will want instant access, and question why the data flow was not being actively monitored to alert the pilot before it went down..
 
rwessel
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:49 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):

Quoting rwessel (Reply 27):

that's what we used to say before computers.. "we can always find space for more file cabinets"..

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 28):
Besides, it would only need to be stored relatively short term, I'm sure 30 days would be plenty, heck seven days would be plenty.

the problem with data storage is that what can be stored will be forever.. some lawyer, regulatory desk sitter or legislative wienie will find some obscure use for the data even if it's "just in case" and you're stuck with it..

You're not getting how small the totals are. For a couple million dollars you could buy enough enterprise class storage to store 8TB/yr for the next century. And, of course, you wouldn’t have to buy it all at once (although you will have to replace it periodically). And it'll be cheaper next year too.

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
second, how secure will it be? could a hacker accessing the data compromise the aircraft instruments?

Unlikely, since this would be a simple set of messages *from* the aircraft. Adding some authentication to those is not a bad idea (which would help verify the stored messages), and of course standard security for the logs themselves. Even then the worst risk is that the records are lost or made public.

Quoting kanban (Reply 30):
in your post, you note a day or two to retrieve.. unfortunately if a plane goes down, the ambulance chasers will want instant access, and question why the data flow was not being actively monitored to alert the pilot before it went down..

I'm not sure what active monitoring is, but that sounds like something that would be the responsibility of each airline. And no big deal, once the messages are on the ground just forward the messages to each airline, just like ACARS messages are now.

As to the central repository, there's no reason to expect that a search of recent messages from a particular aircraft would take more than a few minutes. Just looking at the last couple of days for an aircraft would require a scan through some 44GB of data. Trivial.

The problem, and cost, is with getting the data reliably off the aircraft and to the ground.
 
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kanban
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 31):

OK, go to the current incident, considering the weather and the ocean currents, what exactly would be the different outcome from where they are today.. ???
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 11):
..rations..?? Water, yes but chocolate bars maybe? not on the list. Better grab a bag of peanuts on the way out.

Yes rations.

Quoting airnorth (Reply 16):
I thought I read that somewhere on anet, that airlines that fly over areas of the high arctic are required to carry a certain amount of food, in the event of an unplanned landing, I could be wrong though. It probably is peanuts, and chocolate bars, but I'm sure it was noted somewhere.

I'm not sure what's required, but I know that some airlines (Scandinavian Airlines in this case) that fly over vast areas of ocean and very far north carry potable water, rations, even survival suits for every single crew member and passenger, as well as survival gear and other things that can't be mentioned. Norwegian Air Shuttle does not carry all these things.
 
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:22 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 33):
I'm not sure what's required, but I know that some airlines (Scandinavian Airlines in this case) that fly over vast areas of ocean and very far north carry potable water, rations, even survival suits for every single crew member and passenger, as well as survival gear and other things that can't be mentioned. Norwegian Air Shuttle does not carry all these things.

Maybe Northern or remote operators just err on the side of caution when these extra supplies and rations are on board, perhaps it is not a requirement, but it does make sense to me.

Quoting kanban (Reply 25):
where would you store all that data..

As far as the data is concerned, I think it could be overwritten as I think it currently is on the FDR's on board, so basically a 1 week loop, or more if needed. Data storage, as far as I know is really pretty cheap, the security of it however is a different story as we see more and more examples of that each week in the news.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:24 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 29):
it is daunting to find a lost Cessna somewhere in the great Canadian or Russian North. But there are beacons for that now, IIRC.

There are beacons, the ELTs. However they are based on rather old technology, and are not perfect. While they do work, there are false alarms all the time meanwhile there are others that failed to go off when they were needed. Nothing against the ELT, I think they're great to have and should most definitely be kept around in addition to this new data system, but just thinking how far have computers, cars, TVs, etc come technology wise since the introduction of the ELT? I see no reason why we can't update our aircraft locating systems too. It's one thing to find the bodies, but with the introduction of newer systems I think we could have a much greater chance of getting to the site fast and finding any survivors before they become bodies, every minute counts.

"Great Canadian or Russian North" are also very common routes for airlines, so all the more reason to have a better system of finding lost aircraft. Living north of 60 here in the Yukon I have the big Boeings and Airbusses of the world passing directly over my house all day making their way between Asia and southern Canada and the USA.
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rwessel
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:38 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 32):
OK, go to the current incident, considering the weather and the ocean currents, what exactly would be the different outcome from where they are today.. ???

I never claimed it would help, and while I think enhanced tracking is going to happen, I don't actually think it will be all that useful.

I was, however, commenting on an identified problem, which, IMO, is not actually a problem. IOW, whatever the actual mechanism, effectiveness and justification for such a thing, the storage of the data, once on the ground, is simply not an issue.
 
KFlyer
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:29 am

With all due respect, let me add my two cents...
I am skeptical whether this system could really serve the purpose of a real time tracking device. First of all, it is likely set to communicate only during an 'abnormal event'. What if the system that is responsible for the trigger itself fails? And would it survive in the event of an on board fire? Last but not least, the cost for an all time on communication may be far higher than $100. I would think the real requirement is for a device that would survive the initial stage of a catastrophic incident and give more accurate details on the exact location of the aircraft.
I think it is not fair to compare tracking an aircraft to the tracking of a car. The car has a far more simpler system, and is always on ground.
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frmrCapCadet
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:31 pm

Minimal real time tracking would result in a shorter search for the black boxes, we would have a much better chance of finding them within the 30 day window. More bodies likely would be recovered.
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lancelot07
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 38):

But this already exists with ADS-B.
 
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kanban
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 38):
Minimal real time tracking would result in a shorter search for the black boxes, we would have a much better chance of finding them within the 30 day window. More bodies likely would be recovered.

hypothetical at best

collecting data even in short overwritten segments just in case with few discernible benefits may be a feel good solution, but not a practical one.. Better pilot training in accident prevention including flying with systems off line would provide better results and fewer casualties.

In this case some air traffic control re-education as well
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:29 pm

I think most members here are over estimating both bandwidth and storage requirements.

Here is product description for a SSFDR.
http://visualjournalism.com/wp-conte...ight_Data_Recorder_%28SSFDR%29.pdf

See page 15.

Data Storage Medium
36 Mbyte, Flash EEPROM

Data Capacity
25 Hours @ 256 Words/Sec (3,072 bits / Sec)
50 Hours @ 128 Words/Sec (1,536 bits / Sec)
100 Hours @ 64 Words/Sec (768 bits / Sec)

It takes 3Kbps bandwidth to transmit uncompressed data.

If airlines cannot afford 3Kbps/sec bandwidth there are proven data de-duplication and compression techniques to reduce transmission requirements.

BTW, few CAAs already require airlines to store FDR data. See page 3 of above document about a handheld download unit.

So if you take EK
1.44 Mbps per hour * 16 hrs daily * 200 planes * 365 days = 1.6 Terabytes per year.

3 Kbps link and 1.6TB storage a year. Peanuts.
 
airnorth
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 39):
But this already exists with ADS-B

I am certainly no expert in this field at all, in fact I know almost nothing about it, but from what I understand, currently ADS-B, relies on ground based or other aircraft to relay on receive data from an aircraft. I guess this is really where my confusion lies. The way some of the posts are written, it sounds like ADS-B already covers aircraft everywhere in the world, but this actually isn't correct is it?

In browsing through NAV Canada's website and Aireons website, it sounds like soon, ADS-B will work through satellite networks, (including Iridium), in the near future, (2018).
http://www.aireon.com/Home

This video on Aireo's website explains it perfectly as I understand it, but maybe this isn't as factual as it should be as it is a Rueters video, linked through Aireo's website.
http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/03...n?videoId=295002382&videoChannel=5
 
lancelot07
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting airnorth (Reply 42):

ADS-B is still work in progress, not all aircraft are equipped and not all areas covered yet. But it is growing fast.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 27):
OTOH, why would anyone store this data for more than a few months? Or even a month?

  

Exactly.

The streamed data from any aircraft that has a serious incident / accident could be pulled / accessed pretty much straight away so it would not be necessary to store data for long at all... We know how long it takes to become aware of an incident flight nowadays and how long it takes to access data so what is the need to store data for so long that data storage becomes an issue???
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RetiredWeasel
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting airnorth (Reply 42):
sounds like soon, ADS-B will work through satellite networks, (including Iridium), in the near future, (2018).
Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 43):
, not all aircraft are equipped and not all areas covered yet. But it is growing fast.

I'm no technical expert either but learning fast. ADS-B works in conjunction with ground based receivers of which there are hardly any while crossing the big ponds. ADS-C will use satellite com but is pretty far in the future....I don't believe even close to 2018.

These systems are not to be confused with the Furure Air Navigation System (FANS) which many aircraft systems use today and integrated to the ACARS. This system sends aircraft position reports to satellites (Iridum or Inmarsat) but is nowhere close to real time streaming. Position reports are only required over the ponds generally around every hour.

Flight24 and other flight following services use Oceanic Control's position reports to track the flights. Or if this is not available, they just use that last data (GS, Alt, and filed flight route) to project the flight path.

I'm open for experts to correct me.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Interesting News Piece On Live Aircraft Data Steam

Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:23 pm

Not exactly related to topic at hand, but in general related to location tracking. Didn't want to start another thread.

It appears Airbus is going ahead with Automatic Deployable Flight Recorder certification for A350/A380. It was earlier reported and discussed on a.net that Airbus had plans.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...le-recorders-idUSL6N0UR1NM20150112

Here is a good video about technology.

http://vimeo.com/109276008

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