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usdcaguy
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:26 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
More accurately, technology is destroying more middle class jobs

That's close, but there's more to it. Corporate decisions about how to profit from the technology are driving the job losses; the technology doesn't simply "do" something on its own. If you wanted to see three agents at the gate again, you could do it, and the benefits of technology would simply go to the employees and not stockholders. Currently, employees are not consulted about how technology is used in advance. Those plans are made by a select group of managers, and other employees are then expected to implement those plans without the chance to vote on how the technology is being used. A station could retain all of its employees, for example, and have kiosks so the agents would be able to maintain the same productivity without doing as much work. That would result in an improved quality of life for the agents. However, the way market capitalism works, gains from productivity (automated check-in) are pushed to the top so investors and upper management benefit from technological advances instead of the employees. Such gains cannot be realized without increasing worker productivity, meaning that each agent hired must now equal 100 people checked-in an hour instead of 20. Perhaps the agents are performing fewer check-ins, but who knows if their focus has just shifted to customer service problems, meeting the plane and making boarding announcements, etc. instead of performing an actual check-in. Regardless, one agent now represents multiples of agents that used to do that work in the past; that's why you see reductions in force and outsourcing to save money so that investors (and the managers that decide in their favor) may profit from the technology instead of sharing the gains with the agents. The unions should have stepped in and addressed the "technological sucking" taking place at the airport years ago, but there have been a lot of fires to put out in the past 20 years. The agents have also not been keen enough to organize as often as their peers.
 
F9Animal
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting EXCOASA1982 (Reply 47):

Will the effected employees from the 28 line stations be able to "bump" people from the "protected" stations if the stations are changed to a vendor?

No. Those affected will have the option to transfer, and can do so through the transfer process. If there is an opening at a station, the employee can apply.

I think this is just terrible. I feel so bad for the employees at UA. Nothing is worse than losing a job, and losing it to a subcontractor. I hope karma comes back on the execs.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
cle757
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:31 am

There is a petition going around for Smisek to resign...its not pretty at United!
https://www.change.org/p/ualboard-united-com-resignation-of-jeff-smisek-ceo-of-united-airlines?recruiter=20259572&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg&utm_content=rp_petition_fb_share_desc%3Acontrol

[Edited 2015-01-12 18:34:04]
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tommy767
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 46):
but the leader in all of this was sUA. However, she apparently was let go just before christmas.

How can that be true when almost 3/4 of upper level UA managment is from CO? I think you are living in denial here.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
AA737-823
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 50):
Also don't confuse Delta Global for Delta at some of these stations.

I'm not. DL at ANC is mainline staff above wing, DGS below, who also handles UA/CO below wing.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 48):
DL has a lot more flights than UA

It's still not a ton; while I checked and you're right, ORD has stopped for a few weeks here in the "nobody is coming to Alaska" weeks, DL is down to SEA, MSP, and sometimes SLC. It's not like they're running a huge Anchorage op.

Quoting cle757 (Reply 53):
There is a petition going around for Smisek to resign...i

I'm not an employee, but I'm ready; where do I sign?!!?!? And while we're at it, get his snooty face off of the canned safety brief as well, immediately.
 
F9Animal
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting cle757 (Reply 53):
There is a petition going around for Smisek to resign...its not pretty at United!

Smisek will laugh all the way to the bank. Execs are pretty cold hearted.  
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
jetmatt777
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 17):
yes, the email has been sent internally.

My work group (ironically one of the ones affected) hasn't received the email. But, yes after I arrived at work today I found out.

Looking in my email account now, still not seeing the email.

It's just them acknowledging the rumor. The next phase is actually going through the bids and awarding them.

Sad.

Vendor Friendly.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy
 
maxamuus
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:56 am

It was such a amazing success in DEN recently they decided to roll it out to more stations. *rolls eyes*

To be honest the days of having a career at a airline are coming to a close. Everything is being outsourced to companies paying 10 dollars a hour (if that). 20 years ago who would have thought you would have pilots flying jets making 8-10 dollars a hour. (Express but those planes are getting bigger and greater in number so the situation is only going to get worse)

The ground crew is just the start. There is nothing stopping them from outsourcing flight attendants or pilots. Heck with express they already do. So if you are lucky enough to be a mainline pilot of a wide body you are about the only ones safe from outsourcing (except management of course).

Sadly you get what you paid for, and travel will become even more miserable, as if you make 10 dollars a hour what do you care. Bad weather day you just walk off the job and say screw this and go work for Wendy's for the same money.

It is truly a race to the bottom. CO went from Worst to First to Worst to Fired. $mi$ek has truely destroyed both UA and CO.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:04 am

I feel I need to defend DL's Ready Reserve program here for a second. It's definitely an effective way to keep costs in check while manning stations with your own employees. These folks work part-time and sub-part time (students, working folks who flight benefits) and are paid better than any contractor I've been able to compare. ATL's ramp RR rate is currently $11.30/hour with mainline DL flight benefits, a 50 cent/hour raise after 6 months and another one after a year. You also have the option to buy healh insurance just like anywhere else. And you have a real DL seniority number and you're working with real DL employees, IE: DL HR if you want to transfer somewhere else or to another job. You're already in the company. For those who want a foot in the door during college or to earn flight benefits for their family, it's a great option for employees and for DL.

I have no idea why UA can't figure something like this out. Pile this on top of their current mess in DEN and they are not off to a good start in 2015. I think most of the management team needs to go, not just Jeff.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
maxamuus
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:05 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 37):
The IAM represented employees at UA gave them the green light to do this in their last contract. There was a warning on the first page that basically said if you vote this in most of you will probably loose your job, but here's 5000 dollars.

Sorry, but that is not true. The company was willing to offer job protection for every employee at the company at wages comparable to DGS and the like.

The union knew that would never fly, so they got the most amount of money, and protected the most amount of jobs they could. They were in a no win situation. The membership would NEVER have accepted the wages and benefits UA was offering. The IAM tried to find a balance of a livable wage and job protection. How do you negotiate with a company that knows full well they intend to outsource all the work for wages that union members would never accept?

Just like the negotiations to save these stations is a joke. The company with hand the IAM their proposals from the vendors and tell the IAM members if you work for this you can keep your job. Almost without exception the IAM members will tell management where to stick that proposal.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 58):
It is truly a race to the bottom. CO went from Worst to First to Worst to Fired. $mi$ek has truely destroyed both UA and CO.

Thing is the current UA c-suite managment team was at CO before, during, and after the merger and are calling all the shots (and have been for the last 4.5 years). So really it's more like worst to first to worst again.

I do agree that Smisek really has blown the opportunity to take the best qualities from both carriers and turn it into a winning airline. He has really taken the worst attributes and turned it into not a friendly place to work for or as a passenger to fly with. Compare that to DL which Anderson took the brightest spots from DL and NW and turned it into a powerhouse.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
CALMSP
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 54):

no denial. the leader of the group was the former leader of IAD.

and based on the current officer level, I show it as a 29 former CO, 23 former UA and 3 that were brought on after the merger. So, not quite the 75% as you claim.

[Edited 2015-01-12 19:17:55]
 
cle757
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:10 am

Look for the petition at Change.Org

https://www.change.org/p/ualboard-united-com-resignation-of-jeff-smisek-ceo-of-united-airlines?recruiter=20259572&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg&utm_content=rp_petition_fb_share_desc%3Acontrol


Smisek needs to go!
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Cubsrule
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:15 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Many of our major competitors in these locations have workforce arrangements, including market competitive sourcing, that allow them to operate in these stations at significantly lower costs that are more in line with local markets.

Funny. Of the 28 airports on that list, WN has mainline staff at 21, and DL has mainline staff at about 12 (maybe someone can fill in AA). Last I checked, both were making more money than UA.

Of course, the staff at BNA are easily the worst bunch at the airport and one of the worst groups anywhere I fly on any carrier, so perhaps change is good.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
idlewildchild
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
We announced today that we will meet with International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) leadership about the sourcing of work at 28 of our line stations: ANC (Anchorage, Alaska), ATL (Atlanta), BDL (Hartford, Connecticut), BIL (Billings, Montana), BNA (Nashville, Tennessee), BOI (Boise, Idaho), GEG (Spokane, Washington), GSO (Greensboro, North Carolina), IND (Indianapolis), JAX (Jacksonville, Florida), MCI (Kansas City, Missouri), MFE (McAllen, Texas), MIA (Miami), OKC (Oklahoma City), OMA (Omaha, Nebraska), ONT (Ontario, California), ORF (Norfolk, Virginia), PBI (West Palm Beach, Florida), PVD (Providence, Rhode Island), RDU (Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina), RIC (Richmond, Virginia), RNO (Reno, Nevada), RSW (Fort Myers, Florida), SAT (San Antonio), SJC (San Jose, California), SMF (Sacramento, California), STL (St. Louis), and TUL (Tulsa, Oklahoma).

I've been through IND enough times to recognize the gate agents who are always incredibly professional. I'm surprised because they seem to have so many flights there.

In any event, what it seems like they really are doing is breaking the Union by saying we'll talk to you to try and prevent the Outsourcing and you'll need to renegotiate your contract or the jobs are gone. The Union has no leverage and United will call the cost. The employees will beg the Union to settle to hold onto their jobs and maybe pensions and flight benefits rather than risk working for $8.50 at the same job for an outsourced group, riddled with resentment.

There's something very fundamentally wrong with how we are treating the workers in this country. And though I read above someone poo poo someone else who commented that way, let me say this. I'm a Partner in a firm and find it horrible how this is happening now, especially when fuel costs are down so much and they're making money.

This whole philosophy of cutting personnel lines first started in the 80s (thanks St. Ronnie) and is destroying the middle class of this country. And when the middle class gets destroyed, real trouble happens. This is sickening to me. Oh, btw, I'm Silver with United and hold their Presidential credit card, club membership, yadda yadda.

Really giving me pause here.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 44):
More accurately, technology is destroying more middle class jobs. With your phone giving you a reaccommodated flight and your phone checking you in, the tasks left for agents to perform have become more and more unskilled. This is inevitable in a lot of industries, unfortunately.

Don't buy into that line of corporate BS. The person greeting you at the airport was always a job that required little higher education, a nice smile, and system training. That applied in 1975 as it does now.

No reason (beyond corporate greed) why this person can't make a fair compensation package while working for the company that has it's name on the check in desk behind them.

Enough with the garbage already. They just had a BILLION yes BILLION dollar profit after one of the longest corporate bankruptcies and prolonged mergers in aviation history.
 
maxamuus
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:25 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 61):

Thing is the current UA c-suite managment team was at CO before, during, and after the merger and are calling all the shots (and have been for the last 4.5 years). So really it's more like worst to first to worst again.

Well, one could argue if $mi$ek was true CO. From what i have heard Larry Kellner either left CO or was shown the door because he didnt want to merge CO with UA. So $mi$ek was brought in. He was only CEO for 10 month or so before the merger and during that whole time he was pursuing the merger. $mi$ek never was like Gordon or Larry, completely different leadership style, with him it has always been about money and numbers and shareholder return. He is just a bean counter at heart and isnt focused on customer service or employee relations at all as is very evident at United now.
 
815Oceanic
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:37 am

Can someone fill me in on etiquette here: I thought it was standard practice to announce layoffs in December so that people can prevent spending a lot at Christmas. Or am I thinking of the opposite and its professional to announce layoffs in January? IT seems cruel to announce 20 days after Christmas that you'll probably lose your job soon, no?
 
CALMSP
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:39 am

Quoting 815Oceanic (Reply 68):

after I would say is much better. And if spending a lot means spending more than you earn, then I would say shame on the individual, not the company.
 
777ord
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting cle757 (Reply 53):

Maybe one day he will go....

As a former CO and UA employee, I am not surprised the list is 28. It was to be 30-35 so some stations got lucky!! The station I used to be at is on that list.

Sadly, this is just the beginning.... Dispatchers are leaving, too.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:48 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 61):
Compare that to DL which Anderson took the brightest spots from DL and NW and turned it into a powerhouse.

Unless you were close to that acquisition process, please don't make statements like that. Frankly that statement is laughable. Early on it was almost entirely the DL way or the highway for how things were run. From an outsiders standpoint, at least I've seen UA/CO *try* to take some of the best from both.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 64):
Funny. Of the 28 airports on that list, WN has mainline staff at 21, and DL has mainline staff at about 12 (maybe someone can fill in AA). Last I checked, both were making more money than UA.

WN isn't. And some of DL's "in-house" staff is already in outsourced compensation territory. When there's pressure from Wall Street for higher profits, you cut where you can. And this is the unfortunate result.
 
goboeing
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 4):
Someone might regret paying those union dues pretty soon.

Wrong; their union dues have resulted in better work rules while they are employed. If the station shrinks, so be it -- but your remark about union dues is irrelevant.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 71):
And some of DL's "in-house" staff is already in outsourced compensation territory.

Unless you argue that flight benefits and a seniority number have no value, that's not really a true statement.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 71):

I've heard the reverse. CO way at UA or leave. Looks as if the CO way is continuing as they are looking to make another 28 stations into early 2000s Continental Express operations.

How can you argue the NW influence isn't there? The salad cart & drink cart in BE? Using Douglas/MD jets until the end of their life? The secret medallion transcon upgrade lists? All NW influence for starters.

[Edited 2015-01-12 20:02:52]
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 73):

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 71):
And some of DL's "in-house" staff is already in outsourced compensation territory.

Unless you argue that flight benefits and a seniority number have no value, that's not really a true statement.

I'd also like to see an example where DL RR pays less than or equal to a contractor.... Not in ATL they don't. Add flight benefits and seniority = a lot more compensation than those at contractors or even DGS
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:05 am

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 8):
The Masters of the Universe (otherwise known as MBA grads) are hammered with the concept that the only assets a company should own are ones that are unique to that company. Since there is nothing unique about running an airline, that means no real estate, no buildings, no people, capital equipment leased. Everything else gets managed by a competitive subcontract. In their world, the only thing of value is the brand and the network.
Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 8):
n their world, the only thing of value is the brand and the network.

And themselves, of course. How is it that these very expensive - in more ways than one - don't outsource themselves? Oh, that's right, they're the Masters of the Universe.

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 9):
United an others ought to heed a few old sayings.."The Sweetness of a low price never equals the bitterness of poor quality'

The employees of the out-sourced company (like Simplicity in DEN) have no vested interest in the main company. Why should they?

Quoting COSPN (Reply 23):
The airline has been trying since late 2013 to cut $2 billion from its annual costs through fuel savings, workforce reductions and other measures.

You can make a pizza so cheap that no one will eat it - Gordon Bethune. How is it that Smisek spent all those years under Bethune but learned nothing?

As I've heard so often, United knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
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bluefltspecial
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:14 am

What I have a problem with is that they continue to cut staffing of people who have worked for YEARS in this profession and know how to do the job, then cut them loose, train someone to do a half ass job because they won't have the experience and then the people higher up get a bigger bouns for cutting someone's job and then they still have a hard time making money, even with ALL of their flights being oversold!

I was really for seeing United turn itself around and bounce back, but if it's at the cost of all the employees who are working so hard to do so then no, I'm sorry, let it fail. All they will have left is their "brand" image which will mean nothing to the new contracted employees or the customers. Just my opinion and .02

To all the employees of United and Continental, I'm sorry to see them do this to you guys, you deserve better.
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:26 am

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 8):
The Masters of the Universe (otherwise known as MBA grads) are hammered with the concept that the only assets a company should own are ones that are unique to that company. Since there is nothing unique about running an airline, that means no real estate, no buildings, no people, capital equipment leased

UAL apparently sees it fit to carry $38 billion in assets on its balance sheet, of which $19 billion is physical property and equipment.

Capital leases are also put on the balance sheet as assets. That's something they teach you on your way to becoming a master of the universe.

Not to mention, your first point is totally false. The assets a company should own are those that will provide future returns for the shareholders. It doesn't matter if those assets are related to the business' core operations or not. Heating oil futures don't directly relate to the operation of an airline, but WN made a killing with them in the 2000s. And WN is fawned on by business schools.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 31):
Sad to see more outsourcing. But this what you get when shareholders become the most important stakeholders. The real competitive market in the airline industry is on Wall Street.

Shareholders are the last in line to get paid. The shareholders only get a return if every other stakeholder (suppliers, creditors) do, too.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 52):
I think this is just terrible. I feel so bad for the employees at UA. Nothing is worse than losing a job, and losing it to a subcontractor.

Cancer, terrorism, rape, and child molestation are all worse.

Some jobs will be lost and others will be created. It's the circle of life.
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:45 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 73):
Unless you argue that flight benefits and a seniority number have no value, that's not really a true statement.

Value of those benefits would be very subjective. To some it's everything and some it's nothing. Also a big variable is hours, and it would be interesting to know the comparison between a Ready-Reserver and a contract employee. Either way UA's mainline costs are undoubtedly higher.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 75):
I'd also like to see an example where DL RR pays less than or equal to a contractor.... Not in ATL they don't. Add flight benefits and seniority = a lot more compensation than those at contractors or even DGS

"Territory" =/= same or less. And again, flight benefits and seniority are subjective values.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 74):
I've heard the reverse. CO way at UA or leave. Looks as if the CO way is continuing as they are looking to make another 28 stations into early 2000s Continental Express operations.

So what's the problem then? Is it that the rank-and-file aren't wiling to move on and accept the changes, whether they believe they're better or not?

[Edited 2015-01-12 20:46:03]
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:18 am

Quoting bluefltspecial (Reply 77):

In a lot of cases, they get the same trained worker that knows how to do the job back.
The contractor of course is more than willing to hire someone who already knows how to do the job and in many instances the workers don't have many other options so they end up doing the same job just as an employee of a contractor instead of the airline.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:22 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 79):

So not only A. Did I prove you wrong but also B. You addressed nothing about my points of how Delta took some attributes from Northwest. Apparently in your world Continental was god and Delta is the devil. Sad that you view outsourcing as a good thing. Wonder if UA will ever outsource MSP? Would you change your tune then?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
n7371f
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:50 am

Love the UA vets in GEG. Some have been there for decades and used to handle 10-13 daily mainline. Now it's just 2 to DEN and some down days 1 with a CRJ thrown in.

Delta runs 13-15 depending on the time of year and it's all DGS.

Reminds me of Northwest back in the early/mid 2000's when it finally rid itself of mainline ground at GEG. These were folks that had worked back when the red tail was running 20+ daily with several DC-10-40's. Sad...but sign of the times.
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:42 am

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 59):

Is it in the IAM approved contract or not? It is, so sorry it is true. The IAM approved the outsourcing and so did all the employees who voted yes. You didn't have to have that contract, but you accepted it
 
B737900ER
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:45 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 73):

There's not much CO in the new company. Or old UA for that matter. This is a whole new beast with a whole new philosophy.
 
T5towbar
Posts: 458
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RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 29):
"Why don't we move the affected agents to take over the UAX operation in DEN."   

This is terrible timing with the whole Simplicity meltdown in DEN to announce they are possibly outsourcing 28 more stations. Isn't UA posting profits?

That would be one of the solutions to save jobs by taking over the Express operation in the hubs that don't have it. DEN has furloughs though, and those people will have to be restored before anybody can come in at FT.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 59):
Just like the negotiations to save these stations is a joke. The company with hand the IAM their proposals from the vendors and tell the IAM members if you work for this you can keep your job. Almost without exception the IAM members will tell management where to stick that proposal.

They are a joke. You can't beat a vendor's price.

Quoting commavia (Reply 38):
Indeed it is amazing - an amazing example of how Delta has a distinct advantage in not having unions to stand in the way of creating lower-cost, "in-house" ranks of "Ready Reserve" rampers that are obviously much more cost-competitive with regional carriers and outsourcing vendors owing to their reduced pay, benefits and hours.

Plus they have their own outsourcing arm, DGS. And so does AA with Eagle / Envoy. We don't have one, and those factors works against us. Heck, both of them even do a lot of our work in some of our line stations.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 65):
Enough with the garbage already. They just had a BILLION yes BILLION dollar profit after one of the longest corporate bankruptcies and prolonged mergers in aviation history.

The merger is still not complete yet...........

Quoting 815Oceanic (Reply 67):
Can someone fill me in on etiquette here: I thought it was standard practice to announce layoffs in December so that people can prevent spending a lot at Christmas. Or am I thinking of the opposite and its professional to announce layoffs in January? IT seems cruel to announce 20 days after Christmas that you'll probably lose your job soon, no?

We knew it was coming......
We heard the rumors before the holidays that the rest of the unprotected line stations was going to be farmed out. You don't want to send out the bad news before the holidays!

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 70):
When there's pressure from Wall Street for higher profits, you cut where you can. And this is the unfortunate result.

The stock is doing well. And even better with this news. Potential job loss is good news on Wall Street.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 77):
Shareholders are the last in line to get paid. The shareholders only get a return if every other stakeholder (suppliers, creditors) do, too.

But the stated goal is to get the shareholders paid much faster with a decent ROI. They come first now.........


Bottom line is, instead of fighting for a lost cause, the goal(s) now should be multi-pronged.
A. The insourcing of the line stations that are in LOA #6 (The protected large line stations must be rid of the vendors.)
Maybe we will hear news about this once the final dates are set.
B. A substantial buyout for those who can leave. Not some joke of 20,000 and pay for your flight benefits. It has to be
much better than that.
C. The fight for the Express work in the hubs that don't have it, like SFO; IAD; LAX; and restore the furloughs in DEN.

The company will probably create vacancies in the hubs for those who can move. Since the geniuses who created the new staffing model, it is failing and not working properly because there isn't enough people in the hubs that can make it work properly. They cut and downgraded so deep, it can't possibly work without creating OJI's. So IMHO, bodies are needed without an actual "bump and roll", or more furloughs to PT. The staffing model can't work like the geniuses planned. Unless it is actually designed for the purpose for forced attrition.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
T5towbar
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:06 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 82):
Is it in the IAM approved contract or not? It is, so sorry it is true. The IAM approved the outsourcing and so did all the employees who voted yes. You didn't have to have that contract, but you accepted it

The District needed this contract passed. That's why TA 2 was an in-person vote, instead of the mail in vote like TA 1. That diluted and cut down the numbers (but it passed with the people who did vote that made it a large majority)
There are many reasons why this passed, so it is not a cut and dried. The minority of us who took the time to read and voted NO, understood the ramifications of this deal to give up scope. Also the "lies" in the LOA (5&6) didn't help. The LOA # 4 is a major conflict of interest IMHO. And you had three separate groups to deal with. Bottom line is the real reason why we are in this mess is because the IAM filed for single carrier before getting the sUA people some kind of improvements before going into joint talks. We on the sCO side already had a crappy deal (IBT) with improvements, but lacked scope. And the sCO ATW was non-union. The company wasn't going to throw them under the bus, and neither decimate thousands of jobs in the three (two now) sCO hubs. That's suicidal. The sUA people deserved their retro and pay improvements since they went thru BK. That should have been done before filing for single carrier. But noticed the District corrected that error in the US talks with AA - They got them some improvements and probably preserved some scope before going into joint talks (with their counterparts at TWU) at AA. They will do better than us, but we just made things harder for them (and WN too).
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
flyiguy
Posts: 990
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:21 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:22 am

[quote=Cubsrule,reply=63][/quote

Actually it's 23/28 but only because we don't serve ANC, BIL, MFE , GSO or MIA... All the others have mainline employees.

FLY

[Edited 2015-01-12 23:24:10]

[Edited 2015-01-12 23:24:42]

[Edited 2015-01-12 23:25:11]
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
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malaysia
Posts: 2644
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:37 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 26):
What are UAs largest non hub airports? Which will be the largest to be outsourced?

UA even outsourced the ramp at a hub already (NRT)
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
klwright69
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:42 am

ATL-EWR is now practically all mainline for UA. So we can finally hear the end of that conversation.

The question is what nonhub stations aren't being outsourced?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4142
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:49 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 54):
It's still not a ton; while I checked and you're right, ORD has stopped for a few weeks here in the "nobody is coming to Alaska" weeks, DL is down to SEA, MSP, and sometimes SLC. It's not like they're running a huge Anchorage op.
Quoting malaysia (Reply 87):
UA even outsourced the ramp at a hub already (NRT)

AS outsourced the ramp in SEA. I don't know if outsourcing a ramp is the best example of bad business practices.
 
B737900ER
Posts: 1028
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 85):

Both the IBT and AFA got all outstanding contracts settled for both mechanic and FA groups before going to the table for a joint contract. Seems like the IAM took the cheap and dirty way. And I don't want to come across as a IAM basher, but giving up scope like they did goes contrary to what a union is supposed to do. Save jobs. They wrote to give them away.
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1146
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:17 am

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 37):
IMO one of the dumbest contracts ever to be voted in at any airline anywhere.

Agreed. This was a craft killing T/A from the get-go.

Quoting commavia (Reply 38):
Indeed it is amazing - an amazing example of how Delta has a distinct advantage in not having unions to stand in the way of creating lower-cost, "in-house" ranks of "Ready Reserve" rampers that are obviously much more cost-competitive with regional carriers and outsourcing vendors owing to their reduced pay, benefits and hours.
Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 49):
Also don't confuse Delta Global for Delta at some of these stations.
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 54):
I'm not. DL at ANC is mainline staff above wing, DGS below

Actually,you are, but not in the way you think. ANC has mainline staff below the wing as well- ironically as a result of the IAM CBA from NW.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 58):
You also have the option to buy healh insurance just like anywhere else.

Are you sure about that? RR's are usually specifically told health benefits are not available to them.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 63):
WN has mainline staff at 21, and DL has mainline staff at about 12 (maybe someone can fill in AA). Last I checked, both were making more money than UA.

By my count, DL has M/L in 21 of those, exceptions being: BIL/GEG/MFE (which we don't serve)/OKC/OMA/RNO/TUL.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 70):
And some of DL's "in-house" staff is already in outsourced compensation territory.

Indeed.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 74):
Add flight benefits and seniority

Both of which are nice. Neither of which should be considered compensation.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24059
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:28 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 89):
AS outsourced the ramp in SEA. I don't know if outsourcing a ramp is the best example of bad business practices.

Many of the worlds top airlines outsource handling even at their hubs. Some examples - EK @ DXB, SQ @ SIN, LH @ FRA, CX @ HKG, etc.

In most of the world outsourced handling is the norm. Hardly a bad business practice.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bennett123
Posts: 9200
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:39 am

Not sure about the value of flight benefits when you are on $10 an hour.

You may have other priorities, rent, food etc.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 1899
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:53 am

Quoting goboeing (Reply 71):
Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 4):
Someone might regret paying those union dues pretty soon.

Wrong; their union dues have resulted in better work rules while they are employed. If the station shrinks, so be it -- but your remark about union dues is irrelevant.
Quoting B737900ER (Reply 90):
Seems like the IAM took the cheap and dirty way. And I don't want to come across as a IAM basher, but giving up scope like they did goes contrary to what a union is supposed to do. Save jobs. They wrote to give them away.

Seems to be a few different opinions out there.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14221
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:31 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 84):
But the stated goal is to get the shareholders paid much faster with a decent ROI. They come first now.........

In the 12 months ending September 30, 2014, WN beat UA in ROIC by about 50 percent. Outsourcing isn't required for strong ROIC numbers.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 93):
Not sure about the value of flight benefits when you are on $10 an hour.

You may have other priorities, rent, food etc.

I agree that flight benefits don't have value for everyone, but you can't ignore the fact that some people take the job for the flight benefits, and they have significant value to those folks. It's the same with a seniority number. For a college student who has no intention of staying at DL after graduation, it may not be so important.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
T5towbar
Posts: 458
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:06 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 88):
The question is what nonhub stations aren't being outsourced?

You have the protected stations (till '16 - contract negotiations should begin before any outsourcing date):
AUS; BOS; BWI; CLE (de-hubbed); DFW; GUM; FLL; HNL; JFK; LGA; MSP; MSY; PHL; PIT; SNA.

LOA #6 cities to be insourced (total control, removing the vendors that do the sCO hubs):
DCA; LAS; MCO; PDX; PHX - is the only one completed due to the CLE dehub; SAN; SEA; TPA

When all is finished, 23 stations and 7 hubs will be left. The fight now is to keep what we have!
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
style
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 96):



So what I interperet from that is UA wants in house staffing only at its hubs. Sad that some truly dedicated employees will be ousted for more $9/hr jobs with high turnover rates.

How do you build a great place to work when this is all you do year round?

Like someone above said: Vendor Friendly...

[Edited 2015-01-13 07:32:02]
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1590
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 75):
You can make a pizza so cheap that no one will eat it - Gordon Bethune. How is it that Smisek spent all those years under Bethune but learned nothing?

As I've heard so often, United knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

True.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 89):
AS outsourced the ramp in SEA. I don't know if outsourcing a ramp is the best example of bad business practices.

There have been a lot more accidents on the ramp, since Menzies took over in SEA.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4062
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

RE: UA Outsourcing 28 More Stations

Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:39 pm

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 98):

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 75):
You can make a pizza so cheap that no one will eat it - Gordon Bethune. How is it that Smisek spent all those years under Bethune but learned nothing?

As I've heard so often, United knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

True.

This company will trip over a dollar, to pick up a penny.
Lighten up while you still can, don't even try to understand, just find a place to make your stand and take it easy

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