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commavia
Posts: 11489
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 42):
This does not square with the fact that UA (legacy CO) has been flying from EWR to HKG, PVG, PEK and NRT for a long time, presumably profitably. It is not clear to me why the same logic wouldn't apply to DL at JFK, beyond their daily NRT flight to their mini-hub there.

Because JFK is not the same as EWR - it's as simple as that. United (Continental) has long been able to make more service between EWR and Asia work than AA or Delta (Northwest) has ever attempted from JFK because EWR is a far larger, stronger hub than either of those other carriers have or ever have had at JFK. EWR is the only omni-directional, domestic and international, all-throughout-the-day hub in the NYC area, and so is capable of profitably filling more flights, to more places - and that includes Asia.

BOS would be even more pronounced - no U.S carrier really has the financial impetus to overfly their other hubs to cater to this local market because the opportunity cost - in the form of connecting passengers deprived from other hubs' flights to Asia - is simply too great. This is the same reason why QANTAS has dramatically reduced its longhaul capacity outside of SYD/MEL, why BA has completely exited longhaul outside of LHR, and Air France outside of PAR, etc.

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 42):
In the case of AA, they seem to have surrendered their significant O/D market in NYC to Asian partners -- NRT to JV partner JL, and HKG to CX.

AA has "surrendered" a single daily JFK-NRT flight to its now-ATI/JV partner JAL - that is all. AA has never, in its history, operated anything nonstop between JFK and Asia beyond a single daily NRT flight. I agree that it is unfortunate that AA no longer operates in this market - having stupidly chased the futile JFK-HND route and then simply exiting JFK-TYO altogether - but at least the market is still well-served by JAL. AA has never flown to HKG from NYC, so there was nothing there to "surrender" to Cathay Pacific or any other airline, although I suspect that in NYC as with LAX, Cathay Pacific certainly benefits from the AA marketing relationship and the massive pool of local AA frequent flyers who take advantage of Cathay's extensive capacity and connectivity to/from Asia and help profitably fill all of those 77Ws.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 49):

What are the O&D numbers for BOS-PVG? I'm honestly a bit surprised by this move due to HU's relatively small presence in PVG, but I guess HU has little to lose and lots to possibly gain if this works.

About 56000 pax per year which is a tiny bit over 75 PDEW.

Source: Bar graph on BOS O&D at http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/...rom-777-200lr-to-larger-777-300er/
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 50):
why BA has completely exited longhaul outside of LHR

No they haven't. They still op LGW to LAS, MCO, TPA, Caribbean, etc.

Though it is worth noting that LAS is now the only USA market that they op from both LHR and LGW. Heck, I'm having trouble thinking of any other longhaul market that they serve from both, anywhere.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
commavia
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:50 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 52):
No they haven't. They still op LGW to LAS, MCO, TPA, Caribbean, etc.

Corrected: BA has completely exited longhaul outside of LON.
 
HKG212
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 44):
Yeah, but sort've assumes that all of that traffic is O&D between either city, which it certainly isn't.

I was referring to the number of non-stop flights and seat capacity operating between the two cities, regardless of the make-up of the passengers.

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 49):
In fact, CX added EWR in large part to attack the premium transfer traffic left behind by BR+SQ's exit; that could just as easily go (and in fact was going) through other markets.

I very much doubt that was an important reason. BR and SQ are *A members operating out of markets which have little overlap with CX's own, and traffic from TPE and SIN could easily have gone on one of the 4 JFK flights. I think it was a simple decision to cover another part of a metropolitan area in which CX has a very strong presence.

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 49):
How are you defining biggest? I could be wrong, but I believe HNL- and LAX-TYO both have more O&D traffic and more daily flights.

LAX-TYO is a 5X daily operation, but I admit I didn't consider HNL-TYO, which has 7 daily frequencies. However, I think NYC still wins by seat numbers, at least if you include the one-stop CX flight via YVR; most of the HNL-TYO flights operate on 763/787/A330, with only two on 777, vs. 5X77W and 1X777 to the NYC airports.

Quoting commavia (Reply 50):
AA has "surrendered" a single daily JFK-NRT flight to its now-ATI/JV partner JAL - that is all. AA has never, in its history, operated anything nonstop between JFK and Asia beyond a single daily NRT flight. I agree that it is unfortunate that AA no longer operates in this market - having stupidly chased the futile JFK-HND route and then simply exiting JFK-TYO altogether - but at least the market is still well-served by JAL
Quoting commavia (Reply 50):
AA has never flown to HKG from NYC, so there was nothing there to "surrender" to Cathay Pacific or any other airline, although I suspect that in NYC as with LAX, Cathay Pacific certainly benefits from the AA marketing relationship and the massive pool of local AA frequent flyers who take advantage of Cathay's extensive capacity and connectivity to/from Asia and help profitably fill all of those 77Ws.

"Surrender" may have been a bad choice of words; I meant to say that AA appears resigned to having its OW partners cash in on these routes, at least partially on the strength of its own local client base (as you say), and was wondering if they are not going to try to dip into it with their own metal at some point, especially HKG, clearly a very lucrative route on which they don't have a JV.
 
Sightseer
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:47 am

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 54):
LAX-TYO is a 5X daily operation, but I admit I didn't consider HNL-TYO, which has 7 daily frequencies. However, I think NYC still wins by seat numbers, at least if you include the one-stop CX flight via YVR; most of the HNL-TYO flights operate on 763/787/A330, with only two on 777, vs. 5X77W and 1X777 to the NYC airports.

Hmm. I see the following on LAX-NRT/HND for April 10th:

NH: 1 77E, 1 77W
AA: 1 77E
DL: 1 77L, 1 763
JL: 1 77W
SQ: 1 A388
UA: 1 788

And for HNL-NRT/HND on the same day:

NH: 2 763
CI: 1 A333
DL: 1 744, 1 763
HA: 1 A332
JL: 2 763, 2 77E
KE: 1 A333
UA: 1 777

Regardless, the amount of US-Asia flights that overfly TYO is only going to increase; witness all the new flights to China & HKG that have been started in just the last three years or so, three of which are or will be going to BOS. That's some very impressive growth. Hopefully it'll all stick.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:55 am

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 54):
I very much doubt that was an important reason.

Then we'll have to agree to completely disagree, as I've heard it to be one the prime motive behind the addition. The timing sure supports that notion as well.


Quoting HKG212 (Reply 54):
LAX-TYO is a 5X daily operation

Nope, try 8xD.
JL, NH (x2), DL (x2), SQ, AA, and UA all on LAX-TYO
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
S75752
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:42 am

On a side note, how will this end up ranking in terms of the longest 788 routes?
I believe AC announced their YYZ-DEL with mostly 789's but I think 1x 788 which I think was said is now the longest 788 route, but BOS-PVG appears to be slightly longer. Of course, that may change if YYZ-DEL is Himalaya'd.
 
airbazar
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:58 pm

On the topic of Chinese traffic I thought I might add a curiosity fact here. The amount of Chinese residents and visitors to Boston has been mentioned multiple times across various threads so here's one more. I'm a skier, and for the first time this year I am seeing a lot of beginner level Chinese skiers a our New England ski resorts. There are enough of them to be noticeable. I wonder of HU is selling packaged ski vacations.
 
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allegro
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:37 am

RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 42):
one wonder if AA will want to tap into it with their own metal at some point.

I personally think that if a US carrier was to start JFK-HKG flights, it would be DL rather than AA
Flown on: DC-3, DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, MD-90, 707, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, 787, A300, A310, A320, A330,
 
ASA
Posts: 1125
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:45 pm

This thread was sidetracked with discussions on JFK-HKG and other markets.



Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 45):

A bit too late. HU would have had a first-mover advantage if they did it when they said they would ...

Saludos,
Alex
Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 51):
About 56000 pax per year which is a tiny bit over 75 PDEW.

Probably these numbers will be stimulated a bit with a non-stop connection ... and the rest covered with connecting traffic. HU must be trying to position themselves before MU or others decide on it. Can they interline now with MU or others? Or, can someone potentially fly RDU-BOS-PVG-CKG using B6-HU-MU?

But still, great news for BOS ... the march of Asian carriers continue ... it'll be awesome to see two HU tails on some days! Too bad they won't coincide with CX ... otherwise BOS would like some Asian airport lol. The puzzle is the silence of KE ...
 
D L X
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 19):
Combine lack of Chinese connections with industry wide ASM increase and it's not surprising HU expects losing money, despite Massport route incentives.

Do you mean lack of Chinese connections culturally to Boston, or lack of Chinese connections at PVG?

because if the former, Boston has some pretty large, long-running Chinese connections, being home to the US's first real Chinese population. More modernly, Boston is home to literally thousands of Chinese students across its 50-some colleges and universities. (Not Chinese-descent, but actual Chinese citizens.) I think I read that BU alone has 4000 students having Chinese passports. That's why those extra segments around the ends of the semester running BOS to China were considered.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Hainan Applies For PVG-BOS

Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 60):
Can they interline now with MU or others?

You can definitely book MU interlines on HU website. Since HU does PEK-SHA instead of PEK-PVG, you can book the interlines BOS-PEK-PVG on HU/MU.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN

2019: CX BOS-HKG, WE HKG-HKT, CA HKT-PEK-EWR, B6 EWR-BOS

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