OO-VEG
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CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:48 am

Today a mediabreefing will be held at AMS about the visit of the CEO's of Delta / KLM-Air France and Etihad. Yesterday Richard Andersson (DL) spoke at the university in Delft about the challegenges of low cost airlines and a small remark that in Europe another big partner needs to be used.

Some speculations are about ETIHAD joining the SkyTeam alliance. Any thoughts?

Source: (sorry Dutch only) http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuw...edt-speculaties-over-luchtvaarttop
 
JU068
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:00 am

But what would become of the Etihad Alliance if they join SkyTeam?

However, if EY joins SkyTeam then it means Air Serbia will join too which would be fantastic. JU already has deep ties with Air France, KLM, Aeroflot, Alitalia and Tarom.
 
xiaotung
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:17 am

Can't really see that happen. Didn't EY just create Etihad Partners?
 
behramjee
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:26 am

An EY-DL code share deal like the one AF/KL enjoys with EY would be a massive boost to both parties (revenue wise) which in turn would guarantee higher loads on JFK-AUH-JFK (for EY) + can definitely result in EY too launching ATL by 2016. EY's loads on Sky Team hubs in EU too would be boosted with trans-atl cooperation with DL out of AMS/CDG/FCO in particular !
 
JU068
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:34 am

Delta was also the main opponent when it came to Air Serbia's flights to the United States. They were the only US carrier to openly oppose them.
 
factsonly
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:08 am

Remember that DL is pulling out of USA-AMS-BOM-AMS-USA and I am sure DL (and KL) would like to maintain at least a commercial presence in BOM through a codeshare service.

It would not surprise me if some form of cooperation on the USA-India market is to be announced.
 
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hilram
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:28 am

Pardon my ignorance, but does Delta currently own any stakes in Air France - KLM ?
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panamair
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting hilram (Reply 6):
but does Delta currently own any stakes in Air France - KLM ?

No, DL has equity stakes in Virgin Atlantic, GOL, and Aeromexico only. AF-KL also has a stake in GOL.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:59 pm

Why wouldn't DL/AF/KL make a play for EI? DUB is an increasingly important business destination, and this would be the key to EI getting bigger without merging with BA/IB. Seems like EI would make a great addition to SkyTeam.
 
Armodeen
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:40 pm

Do Skyteam need Etihad? They already have Saudia and MEA in the middle east.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:53 pm

Skyteam would provide a mechanism for 9W at AMS if the code share and at AUh. For a long time EY into Skyteam has been rumored. Combined with AB and Alitalia, this makes sense. You would still have EY/9W as competition. But if DL/KL are pulling out of India, this only makes sense.

So QR to Obeworld and EY to Skyteam... I'm betting a beer against *A even talking to EK.   
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777klm
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:00 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
Combined with AB and Alitalia, this makes sense.

How does the EY-AB partnership make sense when it comes to EY & Skyteam?
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par13del
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:03 pm

Remind me again, is EY one of those ME carriers who DL has accused of poaching USA traffic by purchasing subsidized Boeing a/c?
Methinks something smells here. 
 
delimit
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 6):
Pardon my ignorance, but does Delta currently own any stakes in Air France - KLM ?

Delta's in so deep with AF/KL there's really no need.

Quoting 777klm (Reply 11):
How does the EY-AB partnership make sense when it comes to EY & Skyteam?
EY wanted AB to switch alliances.

[Edited 2015-01-16 14:25:23]
 
commavia
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Thread starter):
Some speculations are about ETIHAD joining the SkyTeam alliance.

Sounds like it.

Wouldn't be all that shocked if it happened.

Quoting 777klm (Reply 11):
How does the EY-AB partnership make sense when it comes to EY & Skyteam?

Good question. Not sure how it would shake out, although as I've said before, I personally don't expect oneworld would put up much of a fight if Air Berlin wanted to leave - it seems like both the airline and the alliance get little from each other now other than codeshare feed on Air Berlin's U.S.-Germany routes, which could be at least partially replicated by Delta, so no big loss.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:38 pm

Quoting 777klm (Reply 11):

Skyteam needs LCC product. IMHO AB is heading down market. EY will carry premium and AB less premium as well as opening a few cities.

All win if the right strategy is agreed to. This also enables KE to connect at AUH filling a major gap of Skyteams.

Something must change in Skyteam. I do not see a better option.

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zschocheimages
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:42 pm

What was the outcome of the press conference? I tried searching for any news and found nothing...
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thekorean
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):

Not really, EY already flies to ICN so PAX can just fly EY to ICN and connect to KE.
 
warden145
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
So QR to Obeworld and EY to Skyteam... I'm betting a beer against *A even talking to EK.

Based on what I've read on this forum, LH would have kittens if anyone else in Star even thought about talking to EK!
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lightsaber
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:33 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 17):

An alliance cooperation would open quite a bit of two way feed IMHO and possibly allow KE to fly from a 2nd Korean city. Unless India stops the silly standoff with Korea, it is the only way Hyundai and KIA would open up significantly more Indian production.

Quoting warden145 (Reply 18):

LH would have something nastier than kittens... AI would also get a vote now and I'd bet SQ and UA would also be against EK in *A. There are few business relationships I would bet against (strange bedfellows and all that)
EK and *A are an easy not going to happen.

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enilria
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:49 pm

I'd be shocked if DL did any kind of deal with EY. I can imagine AB, but not EY. It's even surprising DL hasn't pulled out of the JV with AZ which EY effectively controls.

DL fought EY on EXIM financing
DL fought EY on AUH pre-clear
DL has sought to withdraw open skies with UAE

While I think the "if you can't be 'em, join 'em" strategy is often a good one, I don't think Delta has ever employed it in the past.
 
DTWLAX
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:54 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 10):
But if DL/KL are pulling out of India, this only makes sense.

DL is pulling out of India (BOM), not KL. Kl still plans to server DEL.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 21):

I thought KL was picking up AMS-BOM, replacing the DL flight?

EY in Sky would certainly be interesting. I'll be excited to read about the conferences.
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TWA85
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:34 am

Not trying to be a devil's advocate.... What is the possibility that this meeting could be EY attempting to negotiate a deal to withdraw AZ from Skyteam?
 
factsonly
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:41 am

Just for everyone who is interested, the below article highlights the difference between EK and EY by looking at their transfer traffic at AMS.

It turns out EK only connects pax at DXB, but EY has connecting traffic on both ends AUH and AMS. This shows that EY is successful in generating traffic through its codeshares and EY Partners. EK ofcourse has no cooperation at all at AMS, but does in LHR, SYD and other outstations.

http://www.routesonline.com/news/29/...=social_media&utm_campaign=the-hub

Note that EY's cooperation with KLM leads to significant number of pax using AUH (80%) and AMS (25%) as transfer hubs. Whereas EK only connects pax at DXB (75%).

BRIDGE means Double Connect - passenger connects at both AUH and AMS, so XXX-AUH-AMS-YYY

[Edited 2015-01-17 00:23:21]
 
twinacro
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:47 am

Is it possible that Hogan starts building "Plan B" which is put in place if AB continues being unprofitable?
 
OO-VEG
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:19 am

Quoting zschocheimages (Reply 16):

What was the outcome of the press conference? I tried searching for any news and found nothing...

Unfortunately it wasn't very interesting, mainly about KL/AF needs to save money, be smarter with their costs and to tell that 2015 will still be a difficult year for them.
 
Sydscott
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting Armodeen (Reply 9):
Do Skyteam need Etihad?

If you reverse that question you get the same answer.......no.

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):
Sounds like it.

Wouldn't be all that shocked if it happened.

I would be. For a start Etihad already codeshares with American through a number of places:

http://www.aa.com/i18n/aboutUs/codesharePartners/etihad.jsp

Considering how loud and critical Delta and Richard Anderson have been against the Middle Eastern carriers it would be highly surprising if Etihad wanted to co-operate with them.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 19):
LH would have something nastier than kittens... AI would also get a vote now and I'd bet SQ and UA would also be against EK in *A. There are few business relationships I would bet against (strange bedfellows and all that)
EK and *A are an easy not going to happen.

EK could never exist in an alliance with LH, nor could they with SQ so I agree you're onto a safe bet.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:23 pm

Etihad buying Air France?

Wouldn't surprise me if it happened

maybe not now but possibly later.

                    
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twinacro
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
Etihad buying Air France?

Wouldn't surprise me if it happened

maybe not now but possibly later.

....a marriage between Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande would be more likely than EY buing AF ...
 
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enilria
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 27):
I would be. For a start Etihad already codeshares with American through a number of places:

I hear QR is trying to get that deal broken up

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 27):
Considering how loud and critical Delta and Richard Anderson have been against the Middle Eastern carriers it would be highly surprising if Etihad wanted to co-operate with them.

Agreed
 
alfa164
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 27):
Considering how loud and critical Delta and Richard Anderson have been against the Middle Eastern carriers it would be highly surprising if Etihad wanted to co-operate with them.

And VS was sueing DL... but when it comes to business, all can be forgiven.

I expect EY - and VS - to be in Skyteam within the next 36 months.
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bobnwa
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 2:45 pm

Quoting Armodeen (Reply 9):
Do Skyteam need Etihad? They already have Saudia and MEA in the middle east.

Saudia and MEA together don't compare to Etihad
 
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lightsaber
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 21):
DL is pulling out of India (BOM), not KL. Kl still plans to server DEL.

Then both need a means of serving BOM and any other indirect Indian city.

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 23):

Not trying to be a devil's advocate.... What is the possibility that this meeting could be EY attempting to negotiate a deal to withdraw AZ from Skyteam?

AZ would announce and then the meetings would be held. But momentum is in the opposite direction with 9W and EY likely to join Skyteam.

It is 9W Skyteam probably really wants and now EY has a major say in their direction.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 24):
It turns out EK only connects pax at DXB, but EY has connecting traffic on both ends AUH and AMS.

  

Quoting factsonly (Reply 24):
EK ofcourse has no cooperation at all at AMS, but does in LHR, SYD and other outstations.

I'm sure EK has tried at AMS... I'm sure the response was unprintable too.  
Quoting factsonly (Reply 24):
BRIDGE means Double Connect - passenger connects at both AUH and AMS, so XXX-AUH-AMS-YYY

I thought the point of alliances was to stop the number of "BRIDGE" flights.   Seriously, double hubbing is a pain. I've done it to small destinations and always wonder "why?" But if that is the only way... 15% of EY's AMS passengers are BRIDGE passengers?   

If that is the only way, all being in one alliance will help capture better yield as it reduces passenger uncertainty (lounges, miles, and purchasing without a travel agent).

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
Etihad buying Air France?

Wouldn't surprise me if it happened

maybe not now but possibly later.

If AF doesn't turn around financially... you have a point. Not now as you note... the stakeholders are not yet ready. But possibly later.

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delimit
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:20 pm

I thought it was interesting that KL announced AUH as a 789 destination. That's a lot of seats into AUH.

[Edited 2015-01-17 12:21:43]
 
Azure
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:26 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
Etihad buying Air France?

Wouldn't surprise me if it happened

maybe not now but possibly later.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 33):
If AF doesn't turn around financially... you have a point. Not now as you note... the stakeholders are not yet ready. But possibly later.

Buy ? No. Take a stake : perhaps. AFKL is considering a capital increase and I can see EY participating, although AFKL ceo dismissed this possibility last spring.

Anyhow, it would require the board approval. That includes the French government. Not the easiest to convince. The UAE would need to buy a lot of Rafales... And how about the Unions (at both AF and KL?)



Quoting TWA85 (Reply 23):
What is the possibility that this meeting could be EY attempting to negotiate a deal to withdraw AZ from Skyteam?

What would be the point of such a move ? Withdrawing AZ from SkyTeam would most certainly result in withdrawing from the TATL JV also, which is highly profitable. And don't EY count on AZ to expand their TATL ops from Europe ?

Actually there are more chances that AFKL and DL try to get rid of AZ from ST if they become an issue by transferring too many PAX through AUH.

So far, AZ has kept a rather low profile and retained to join Etihad Airways Partners. Let's see what happens in the coming months.
 
kl911
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 34):
I thought it was interesting that KL announced AUH as a 789 destination. That's a lot of seats into AUH.

Ahum, with a 9 abreast 787 that means low yield tourists. No chance for high yield corporate Y class travel.
 
delimit
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 36):
Ahum, with a 9 abreast 787 that means low yield tourists. No chance for high yield corporate Y class travel.

?

9 abreast is the norm. EY is 9 abreast as well.

Corporate travelers fly on the airline that their company contracts with. Seat count has very little to do with it.

[Edited 2015-01-17 15:32:25]
 
MEA-707
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 36):
with a 9 abreast 787 that means low yield tourists. No chance for high yield corporate Y class travel.

You realize that, apart from JAL, all airlines operating the 787 have 9 abreast seating?
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kl911
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:43 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 37):
9 abreast is the norm. EY is 9 abreast as well.

Corporate travelers fly on the airline that their company contracts with. Seat count has very little to do with it.

No it's not. I advise my clients itineraries with the best price/quality balance. I also inform them in detail about the expected quality of the options offered, I also know the age and size of my clients. The clients I serve are employees of large corporations or smb's but they are paying for quality they get. In my experience after a few flights they know who and what plane to avoid.
This is not only anti 787, also against the airlines. I just think a crucial error has made by making an airliner to large for 8 abreast, and too small for 9 abreast.. And we all know who will suffer
 
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lightsaber
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting Azure (Reply 35):

You are right, an equity stake into AF.

As to the other stakeholders, they will kick and scream, but there is unlikely to be a choice. EY would offer better terms IMHO.

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PW100
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 27):
Quoting Armodeen (Reply 9):Do Skyteam need Etihad?
If you reverse that question you get the same answer.......no.

You are seeing this black-and-white. But there is a lot of world between "needing each other" and "a mutually beneficial agreement".
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C010T3
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:37 pm

AF-KL would fit perfectly as a partner that could make all the questioning of EY stakes in European airlines go away. If they structure everything right, it could work to everyone's benefit. I don't believe EY poses the same threat as QR and EK. EY already suffers from competition from both, which is why it's going for a different approach.
 
pnwtraveler
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:39 pm

Perhaps a joint venture arrangement similar to some of those in the Star Alliance might be in the works. This is beyond an alliance and allows much more efficient flying with fewer overlaps. UA/LH/AC cross Atlantic and AC/CA in the works for cross Pacific. There are other examples. For example a DL customer flies into Amsterdam, France or AU and then flew on Etihad to Bombay all under a DL ticket with seamless transfer of luggage and both airlines benefit. That in conjunction with a share exchange or buy in would lock a pretty strong relationship together far beyond just an Alliance. AF certainly could use the injection of cash with Etihad buying a piece. The rationalization of routes would be interesting to see.
 
DTWLAX
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 22):
I thought KL was picking up AMS-BOM, replacing the DL flight?

No... KL is sticking to DEL only for now.
BOM will be served by AF from CDG.
 
bobdino
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 28):
Etihad buying Air France?

Wouldn't surprise me if it happened

maybe not now but possibly later.

It would certainly surprise me, as it would need a change in EU law. Current rules restrict non-EU shareholders to 49% and no control of the airline in question.

There is a review of these rules under way, with initial results due around April, but it's not expected to lead to fundamental change: http://www.wsj.com/articles/change-i...reviews-aviation-policy-1416579887

There was a pretty decent amount of negative coverage in France when a minority stake in TLS was sold to Chinese investors. It'd be extremely amusing to read the coverage if 49% of AF was sold to the Middle East.
 
LJ
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting delimit (Reply 34):
I thought it was interesting that KL announced AUH as a 789 destination. That's a lot of seats into AUH.

Still less than prior to GA going nonstop on their AMS-CGK flight (which was an EY codeshare as well).

Quoting kl911 (Reply 36):
Ahum, with a 9 abreast 787 that means low yield tourists. No chance for high yield corporate Y class travel.

I think the stop in BAH will be less appealing than 9 abreast in Y.


Quoting kl911 (Reply 39):
No it's not. I advise my clients itineraries with the best price/quality balance.

You clearly don't work for my employer (very large Dutch financial institution). It's the airline in the corporate contract on that specific route unless the alternative is at least 20% cheaper (and is doesn't jeopardize the corporate contract) or the airlines in the corporate contract don't offer an good option (or there is no contract at all on that specific route). Then again, we don't have to travel in Y when the flight is 6 hours or more and thus probably don't have an issue with 9 abreast on the 787 anyway.
 
factsonly
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 46):
I think the stop in BAH will be less appealing than 9 abreast in Y.

There is no stop in BAH, as AMS-AUH and AUH-AMS are non-stop.

The KL route is AMS-AUH-BAH-AUH-AMS, so BAH is the less attractive destination as you back-track.
 
PietPiloot
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:00 am

In an interview with KLM's CEO in Dutch newspaper FD, he said that at this point that there is no Join Venture between KLM and Etihad is on the table at this time. However, cooperation between the two will be expanded.

More interestingly, he said that Jet Airways will be flying to Amsterdam from two points in India and as it is part of Etihad, KLM is looking for a cooperation with Jet Airways as well as the other way around. It would be a good addition to the transfer passengers to India via Abu Dhabi he said.

No mentioning about any start dates or official announcement..

On a side note, there were earlier plans to start flights to AMS in winter 2013 from both Delhi and Bombay with service from Delhi continuing to Toronto. Those plans were postponed until further notice.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: CEO's Of DL/KL/AF And Etihad Meet

Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 48):
In an interview with KLM's CEO in Dutch newspaper FD, he said that at this point that there is no Join Venture between KLM and Etihad is on the table at this time. However, cooperation between the two will be expanded.

This sounds short of EY entry into Skyteam. But definitely progress.

Quoting PietPiloot (Reply 48):
More interestingly, he said that Jet Airways will be flying to Amsterdam from two points in India and as it is part of Etihad, KLM is looking for a cooperation with Jet Airways as well as the other way around. It would be a good addition to the transfer passengers to India via Abu Dhabi he said.

That is the better news. KLM/AF would benefit from the local presence of 9W in India, a region Skyteam needs help. In return for a few long haul flights... The question is, will 9W join Skyteam?


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