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JetBlueGuy2006
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JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:39 am

Glad the B6 pilots were on top of communications and situational awareness

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jetblue-...ff-avoids-runway-collision-at-jfk/
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DocLightning
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Thread starter):
Glad the B6 pilots were on top of communications and situational awareness

Yeah. That's really frightening. A runway incursion in front of an aircraft on its takeoff roll. They were lucky they weren't past V1.

So after an event like this, what is SOP? Go back and try again, or does an inspection need to be done?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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nkops
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:21 am

http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2015/01...ay-marsh-air-trouble-fuel-dump.cnn

CNN has computer animation video with ATC recording... pretty interesting
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KBUF
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:22 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So after an event like this, what is SOP? Go back and try again, or does an inspection need to be done?

Looks like it ended up suffering a 3.5 hour delay, so it likely did have to undergo an inspection: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/J...5/history/20150118/0200Z/KJFK/KAUS
 
SocalApproach
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:43 am

http://avherald.com/h?article=4807ef24&opt=0

Sounds like the Caribbean Airlines 738 may have mistakenly thought they got clearance to cross 22R when it was intended for a VX 320 which had just landed prior to the Caribbean a/c. Caribbean crew therefore went ahead and switched over to Ground Frequency and thus did not copy any of the transmissions from the Tower to "Stop Immediately". They probably had no idea how serious their mistake was until reaching the gate. Glad everything turned out ok!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:15 pm

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 4):
Sounds like the Caribbean Airlines 738 may have mistakenly thought they got clearance to cross 22R when it was intended for a VX 320 which had just landed prior to the Caribbean a/c. Caribbean crew therefore went ahead and switched over to Ground Frequency and thus did not copy any of the transmissions from the Tower to "Stop Immediately". They probably had no idea how serious their mistake was until reaching the gate. Glad everything turned out ok!

Yeah. All's well that ends well because there are multiple layers of safety, but the fact that an aircraft taxiied onto a runway in front of another aircraft on it's takeoff roll is hair-raising. With ~150 passengers on each aircraft (A320 vs. 738 in standard configurations), the potential casualty count is awfully high.

One thing I don't get is: when you are cleared to cross a runway, don't you look both ways before proceeding? As far as I know, visibility was fine.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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rabenschlag
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:20 pm

Brings back memories of hot brakes at JFK in 2011:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGmaQYrRutA
 
AIRWALK
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:19 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So after an event like this, what is SOP? Go back and try again, or does an inspection need to be done?

Brakes may be very hot depending on whether MAX/RTO braking was used till standstill. The aircraft might not even taxy off until temp drops or risk of fire has been cleared.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
Passedv1
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So after an event like this, what is SOP? Go back and try again, or does an inspection need to be done?

Depends on the speed/weight of the aircraft. Sometimes it's necessary to pull the FDR data to check what speed the aircraft aborted at if it was close to a parameter...i.e 120....do this other inspection which can take time. Additionally, even if an extensive inspection is not required, sometimes just waiting for the brakes to cool off can take quite awhile, but my guess would be in this situation that the crew was replaced and a reserve crew called out. It wouldn't have been clear at the time of the incident what had transpired so I wouldn't be surprised if the pilots were replaced. In any case it would have given the crew time to settle down, talk to all the management types they were going to have to talk to, and start writing all them reports. They may have had to take a drug-test also. Two hour reserve call out plus some time for a pre-flight is about 3-3.5 hour delay...sounds about right.
 
burnsie28
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Yeah. That's really frightening. A runway incursion in front of an aircraft on its takeoff roll. They were lucky they weren't past V1.

Which if according to some reports the B6 plane was over 100mph at the time and they still had 2,800 feet of seperation I have a feeling that had they been at V1 they would have plenty of space.
 
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longhauler
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:58 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 9):
Which if according to some reports the B6 plane was over 100mph at the time and they still had 2,800 feet of seperation I have a feeling that had they been at V1 they would have plenty of space.

100 mph is about 90 knots. V1 was probably about 150 knots. They would not have made it to V1 without hitting (or passing) the other aircraft.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):

So after an event like this, what is SOP? Go back and try again, or does an inspection need to be done?

From that speed, not too much. Brake fans would have the brakes cooled in about 20 minutes. But ... where I fly, if one is involved in a high speed reject, one has to talk to the Chief Pilot first before flying again.

Not just for fact finding or trouble shooting, but also to confirm you in the right frame of mind, and not "rattled" by the event.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Moose135
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
One thing I don't get is: when you are cleared to cross a runway, don't you look both ways before proceeding?

I always did...
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
PropClear
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 11):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
One thing I don't get is: when you are cleared to cross a runway, don't you look both ways before proceeding?

I always did...

Very easy to simply assume the other aircraft was directed to taxi onto the runway and hold for the crossing traffic (esp if they felt they were given clearance to cross).
 
LONGisland89
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:20 am

It's interesting to note that in the audio I listened to, not only did the controller not issue a hold short (until it became clear they were crossing), but he never gave the BWA flight taxi instructions after vacating 22L. Although, it is not apparent if any transmissions/dead air were cut out.
 
Mir
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:19 am

It might be time for airports in the US to start installing stop bars (steady red in-pavement lights at taxiway/runway intersections) instead of the current yellow flashers. They're very common elsewhere, and they'd likely have prevented this from happening, since even if the Caribbean flight thought they were given instructions to cross, they'd have stopped if the lights were lit.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DocLightning
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:37 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):

It might be time for airports in the US to start installing stop bars (steady red in-pavement lights at taxiway/runway intersections) instead of the current yellow flashers. They're very common elsewhere, and they'd likely have prevented this from happening, since even if the Caribbean flight thought they were given instructions to cross, they'd have stopped if the lights were lit.

How do those lights know to turn red when an aircraft is using the runway?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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N757ST
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:46 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
It might be time for airports in the US to start installing stop bars (steady red in-pavement lights at taxiway/runway intersections) instead of the current yellow flashers. They're very common elsewhere, and they'd likely have prevented this from happening, since even if the Caribbean flight thought they were given instructions to cross, they'd have stopped if the lights were lit.

-Mir

A few airports including FLL (28L), BOS, and MCO have already installed them.
 
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longhauler
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
How do those lights know to turn red when an aircraft is using the runway?

They are controlled by the control tower.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
AR385
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
So after an event like this, what is SOP? Go back and try again, or does an inspection need to be done?

As our experienced friend longhauler said, it really depends mainly on the speed and the weight of the aircraft at the reject. It has to do withe the break temps.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Yeah. All's well that ends well because there are multiple layers of safety, but the fact that an aircraft taxiied onto a runway in front of another aircraft on it's takeoff roll is hair-raising. With ~150 passengers on each aircraft (A320 vs. 738 in standard configurations), the potential casualty count is awfully high.

Here´s a neat video for you. Pretty scary. Or well, some will say it´s not. I would have hated to seated on the right side of that A340...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N5TH...=FL3nlp2m2-Dpf3lqcTE57n-g&index=25
 
Mir
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:37 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 17):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
How do those lights know to turn red when an aircraft is using the runway?

They are controlled by the control tower.

To expand on that, their default setting is on. The tower turns them off when they're giving an aircraft permission to cross a runway (in conjunction with instructions via radio). So it's a pretty reliable system.

The one in use at BOS is automatic, and only indicates whether the runway is safe to cross, not when an aircraft has been instructed to cross. So crossing without a clearance is still possible, though no conflict would result. But the lights will still light up even if the tower forgets about them. So it's a bit of a tradeoff.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:19 am

JFK has a very unusual situation; unique to US airports.

At any other US airport, the clearance to cross the departing runway comes from the tower controller running the departing runway.

Not so at JFK!

At JFK, you land on 22L/4R and get taxi instructions that end with "hold short 22R/4L."

Then

the landing runway controller clears you to cross the departing runway and switches you to ground control.

You are never on the same frequency as the departing runway traffic. So you can never verify via other radio transmissions whether or not traffic is in position or rolling.

And if you are departing, you can never verify whether traffic is holding short or crossing because they do it on another frequency.


The above situation + many language barriers at JFK = several of these situations every year
 
LONGisland89
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:05 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 20):
You are never on the same frequency as the departing runway traffic.

The concept isn't unique compared to LAX, SFO, SEA, MIA, BOS, DFW, ATL etc. Also, It isn't uncommon for one local controller to be working 22R/4L departures and 22L/4R arrivals.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 20):
So you can never verify via other radio transmissions whether or not traffic is in position or rolling.

Shouldn't matter. As per the 7110.65, the controller is required to exchange traffic (i.e. "traffic crossing downfield" and to the other traffic "traffic holding in position"). Again, this is mandatory but doesn't always happen...phraseology that is.

[Edited 2015-01-23 22:09:09]
 
CO953
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:13 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
It might be time for airports in the US to start installing stop bars (steady red in-pavement lights at taxiway/runway intersections) instead of the current yellow flashers.

Or just some old-fashioned wooden railroad crossing arms....

  
 
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barney captain
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
How do those lights know to turn red when an aircraft is using the runway?

In the U.S. they're all automated and controlled by sensors/radar without any controller input.





http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Runway_Status_Lights_%28RWSL%29
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Mir
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 20):
JFK has a very unusual situation; unique to US airports.

At any other US airport, the clearance to cross the departing runway comes from the tower controller running the departing runway.

Not so at JFK!

That's not true - the same controller runs both 22L and 22R. You can hear this in the audio recording.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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longhauler
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 23):

In the U.S. they're all automated and controlled by sensors/radar without any controller input.

Then how does the system differentiate from an aircraft holding in position, but not cleared to take-off (so not a threat) from one holding in position and cleared to take off (so it is a threat)?

The system you quoted looks like the one installed in LAX. Is that still in operation? I go there a few times a month and never see it working.

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
To expand on that, their default setting is on. The tower turns them off when they're giving an aircraft permission to cross a runway (in conjunction with instructions via radio). So it's a pretty reliable system.

This makes more sense, as the tower controller and only the tower controller knows who is cleared to take off and who is not.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting LONGisland89 (Reply 21):
The concept isn't unique compared to LAX, SFO, SEA, MIA, BOS, DFW, ATL

Absolutely different. You are talking to the controller that is running. You land on 4R at BOS, you taxi down to 4L and switch frequency. Then you do it again on the other side for Ground Control.

JFK is the only airport I have come across where you don't get clearance to cross the active runway from the active controller.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
That's not true - the same controller runs both 22L and 22R. You can hear this in the audio recording.

Dude, I am not a liar. I am so sick of these barbs on a.net. I don't proclaim to be an expert on anything. On JFK, where I have worked for 11 years as a pilot, I know what I am talking about.



Sometimes it is the same controller (pre evening rush). And it may be on the tape. In that case combined ops on 119.1.


But once they open up 31L KE it is one guy working 22R 31LKE (119.1) and another guy on 22L. (123.9) or vice versa on frequencies.


It is unique to JFK in that you talk to the 22L controller while crossing 22R. It happens every single day this runway configuration is in use.

The last near miss (or hit) I witnessed was a LH 340 barreling down 22R while a a foreign carrier rolled across on intersection G.

The controller literally yelled "Lufthansa STOP." Skid marks are still there. Scary stuff. Foreign carrier was on other frequency and never heard a thing. (I believe it was a 777)


I have not been to another airport anywhere that uses this procedure when crossing a runway and it lends itself to situations like this; especially with the JFK language barriers in place
 
Mir
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 25):
Then how does the system differentiate from an aircraft holding in position, but not cleared to take-off (so not a threat) from one holding in position and cleared to take off (so it is a threat)?

I assume it works based on motion. If the aircraft isn't moving, the lights won't be on.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
Dude, I am not a liar. I am so sick of these barbs on a.net. I don't proclaim to be an expert on anything. On JFK, where I have worked for 11 years as a pilot, I know what I am talking about.



Sometimes it is the same controller (pre evening rush). And it may be on the tape. In that case combined ops on 119.1.


But once they open up 31L KE it is one guy working 22R 31LKE (119.1) and another guy on 22L. (123.9) or vice versa on frequencies.

Well, it was on the tape. So whatever other things they may do at other times, as relates to this incident the same tower controller was running both runways and was giving all crossing instructions.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
LONGisland89
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
Absolutely different. You are talking to the controller that is running. You land on 4R at BOS, you taxi down to 4L and switch frequency. Then you do it again on the other side for Ground Control.

Gotcha, I misunderstood your point. However, I don't agree with the suggestion that this is unsafe or contributes to the number of runway incursions. As was said above, it was the same controller working both runways.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 26):
The controller literally yelled "Lufthansa STOP." Skid marks are still there. Scary stuff. Foreign carrier was on other frequency and never heard a thing. (I believe it was a 777)

The Egyptair 777 was on ground, of course he didn't hear the local controller yelling at Lufthansa.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
Here´s a neat video for you. Pretty scary. Or well, some will say it´s not. I would have hated to seated on the right side of that A340...

Scary but not as scary because there was ample time for a go-around and the 767 never got low enough to actually have to climb back above the A340. He stayed above the A340 at all times. On a takeoff roll at high speed, the pilot has considerably fewer options if there is a sudden runway incursion.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
AR385
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RE: JetBlue Flight Aborts Takeoff At JFK

Sat Jan 24, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Scary but not as scary because there was ample time for a go-around and the 767 never got low enough to actually have to climb back above the A340. He stayed above the A340 at all times. On a takeoff roll at high speed, the pilot has considerably fewer options if there is a sudden runway incursion.

Come on Doc, I´m trying here to give you a good scare  

Sure, it´s not scary, until you read the report. Apparently the BCN tower forgot about the AR plane due to the change of shifts from night to morning.

So yeah, the degree of danger is not the same. Sure. But still, it´s a reduction in the safety margins that should not occurr. Neat video, though.

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