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jfklganyc
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NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:55 am

http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...-yorks-laguardia-airport/22056647/


Another AirTrain for NYC! LGA. It would connect to the #7 train and LIRR at Willets Point/LIRR

Paid for by NY State funds (like the rest of LGA redevelopment) to bypass the cash-strapped Port Authority of NY and NJ once again.

Currently, garage being built and hangars being demolished at LGA are being funded by NY State, not the PANYNJ. This pattern would continue under this plan.


Personally, I feel this is the cheap way to built this project. The better way would be to extend to the west (towards Manhattan instead of away from it) to the N/Q train and have a one seat ride to Manhattan.

However, much like a decade ago with AirTrain JFK, in a place like NYC where everything is expensive and hard to do, even a project that gets you 90% there is better than nothing.

The link, imo, will be very successful like its sister link at JFK


http://www.panynj.gov/press-room/press-item.cfm?headLine_id=2148

[Edited 2015-01-20 20:33:47]
 
jfkgig
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:05 am

This seems like a perfect plan to wind up with a useless pink elephant, which would be of absolutely no use to anybody in Manhattan. Why would anybody in Manhattan go all the way out to Shea Stadium, so that they can backtrack back to LGA with this new train? It will remain easier to take a cab, or to take the #7 to Jackson Heights and grab the Express Bus. It would be much easier, cheaper, and faster to extend the #7 or the N to LGA, but that wouldn't present as many opportunities for graft, particularly after Cuomo went to so much trouble to abolish the anti-corruption commission that would oversee such a project, and is now free to dole out favors to his friends. That's New York, where airports aren't seen so much as infrastructure or public amenities, as they are opportunities for patronage and corruption.
 
masseybrown
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:07 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Thread starter):
The better way would be to extend to the west (towards Manhattan instead of away from it) to the N/Q train

   This makes total sense, so of course it can't happen. A good number of LGA workers live in Astoria.
 
commavia
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:43 am

All I can say is ... about time!

Quoting jfklganyc (Thread starter):
The better way would be to extend to the west (towards Manhattan instead of away from it) to the N/Q train and have a one seat ride to Manhattan.

Agreed - it would have been far preferable to direct the AirTrain west or, perhaps, south to the E/F/M/R at Jackson Heights but, even still, I'll take it.
 
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:18 am

People in Manhattan have great looking links to Jfk and EWR already. This will still be a great link and probably the best for workers at the airport. Anything to reduce congestion into LGA is huge and great. Get some employee buses and employee lot traffic off the roads. I like this plan plus alot of riders will take it there's alot more to NYC than just Manhattan
 
planemannyc
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:37 am

I wonder if eventually this line can be connected to JFK AirTrain. I know it won't be cheap (and funding for this line was not very clearly identified). Maybe step one of a few. First connect to Willets Point. Then extend westward to Ditmars Blvd connecting to N/R. Then extend from Willets Point to Jamaica (JFK AirTrain). Then one day - maybe in a hundred years - extend the Ditmars stop to Manhattan. Voila - one seat ride to not only LGA, but JFK too! Oh only we could learn from the Europeans and Asians!

Planemannyc / Wasim (still dreaming)

[Edited 2015-01-20 22:39:57]
 
OB1504
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:38 am

In Cuomo's defense, attempts to build either an AirTrain or subway extension between LGA and Astoria Blvd or Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Avenue have been unsuccessful due to opposition from local residents.

An AirTrain to Willets Point does go in the opposite direction of Manhattan, but it may be the only way to get such a link built. At least it'll offer both subway and LIRR connectivity.
 
wjcandee
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:32 am

These same geniuses cut service on the LIRR's busiest line, Port Washington, which would be the one implicated here, by a huge amount to save $200K per year. (They later restored some of it when hourly or 2-hour service meant a huge drop in off-peak ridership.)

But he's going to spend $300 MILLION on a link to that line? (That's 1500 times that amount.) JFK Airtrain works because there is a train to Manhattan about every 10 minutes (or less) through Jamaica. The same won't be true at Willets Point. And the 7 is a great subway, but it's a lot of stops from Shea Stadium (oops..."Citifield") to Manhattan. Nobody is going to wait an hour for an LIRR train, so the 7 it will have to be.

It's not the same thing as the JFK or EWR Airtran. It's a boondoggle by a guy looking for a legacy. How about they fully-fund and complete the LIRR/Grand Central connector or the 2nd Avenue Subway instead of pushing off the completion dates indefinitely for funding reasons?

JFK and EWR Airtran also work (to the extent that they do...they're hardly overwhelmed with passengers other than airport employees) because Europeans and Asians arriving at those international airports are accustomed to looking for and using a rail connection to the city center. The same won't be the case at LGA.

The right way to do this would be to do what they envisioned doing at JFK but couldn't due to Federal funding restrictions (but wisely designed the system not to preclude): connect the Airtran to the LIRR so that it could stop at Jamaica then go express to Manhattan -- a one-seat, one-stop ride.

[Edited 2015-01-20 23:42:41]

[Edited 2015-01-20 23:44:45]
 
wjcandee
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:34 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
even still, I'll take it.

You will be the only one.
 
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:44 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 3):
All I can say is ... about time!

      

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 6):
attempts to build either an AirTrain or subway extension between LGA and Astoria Blvd or Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Avenue have been unsuccessful due to opposition from local residents.

...and transport unions, fierce opposition.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 8):
You will be the only one.

No he won't, at all.
I refuse to use LGA due to no rail links, after getting stuck in traffic and coming within less than 10min of missing my flight, despite leaving hours in advance. I swore never again, and made good on it. I'm not the only who made a similar decision.
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Curiousflyer
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:47 am

This service won't make sense for many Manhattan travelers as their commute will take an hour with the 7 or a change to the LIRR. Even though it has happened to me to need over an hour by cab from Manhattan, it is usually a thirty minute drive.

With the LIRR from Grand Central (when this happens) or Penn Station (but Penn Station is a nightmare) it will make more sense for Midtowners, although connecting at Woodside would have been better. But I see why Woodside residents would not necessary like it, with their neighborhood already crossed by the 7 train (which is overground there), the LIRR and Amtrak. With the Airtrain leaving from Willets Point, it crosses less residential areas and just follows the parkway. Cheap.

I guess digging a tunnel from Grand Central to LGA is too expensive. Too bad.

As for Queens and Brooklyn travellers, unless they live East of Woodside in Queens, a cab or even bus will be much faster.
 
mysterzip
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:09 am

Benjamin Kabak, a transit expert and blogger has this to say;
http://secondavenuesagas.com/2015/01...nnounces-an-airtrain-to-laguardia/

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 7):

I agree and also there is not much commuter rail service to Willet's point. Cuomo is looking for his legacy in all the wrong places.

As with most plans in New York City, there will be no long-term funding. This secondary link will reroute funds that could previously have been allocated to something that makes more sense. Metro-North stations in the Bronx. Second phase of the Second Avenue subway, the new tunnel that Amtrak will now build all by itself (and will reap ALL the benefefits and will deny NJ Transit and any NY transit authority that asks to use the tunnel) that Chis Christie cancelled.

Quoting planemannyc (Reply 5):
First connect to Willets Point. Then extend westward to Ditmars Blvd connecting to N/R. Then extend from Willets Point to Jamaica (JFK AirTrain). Then one day - maybe in a hundred years - extend the Ditmars stop to Manhattan. Voila - one seat ride to not only LGA, but JFK too!

The JFK Airtrain had studies done to see if they could extend it to Manhattan. That's stuck in the mud right now and will probably never happen. New York has a history of "wait-and-see" politicians, only to find out that the neighborhood has grown around their little plan, which would then end in futility. What we need is a Robert Moses for transit, not yet another mob-connected governor.

The Q70 seems to do the job, in my opinion. It's not perfect, but I'll take that over a Willet's point train to nowhere.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:37 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 6):
An AirTrain to Willets Point does go in the opposite direction of Manhattan, but it may be the only way to get such a link built. At least it'll offer both subway and LIRR connectivity.

I think we are being to hard on Cuomo here.

This is the path of least resistance.

I will repeat that

This is the path of least resistance.

Anyone who lives in NYC can tell you that means everything with a project like this.


This will run up the state owned Grand Central and across the Shea parking lot to city parkland.

Oh and that area around Shea (Citi) is a development zone with a giant convention center planned that could use the airport link

Oh and that Citi Field owner Fred Wilpon building the huge mall there...I bet he likes the link too

You can bet the USTA and that giant Tennis Center at that stop like the airport link too

No residents to deal with

No environmentalists to deal with

No political support needed to win over

THIS IS PRICELESS IN NEW YORK

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 9):
No he won't, at all.

100% correct. This isn't Nebraska. (Although sometimes I wish it was. We live on top of each other here) There are no white elephant rail links in NYC. If there is a train moving in any direction 24 hours a day 7 days a week, it will be filled.


Many people predicted the JFK link would be a "white elephant." They were Jamaica residents who sued for years.

They were wrong.

[Edited 2015-01-21 04:54:58]
 
planeguy727
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 12:51 pm

As a regular user of LGA I won't find this useful at all. Anyone headed to Manhattan much north of 59th St will have a very roundabout way. I live and work uptown so would need to use the AirTrain - 7 Train - A/D/1 Train to 145th (and getting to JFK would be faster). The M60 is a much better option for those going to uptown Manhattan/Bronx, especially since it became a select bus service.
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
I think we are being to hard on Cuomo here.

This is the path of least resistance.

Exactly. It's an improvement from the status quo.

This is probably the easiest and quickest option to build rail service. All of the other options have a lot more challenges and cost associated with the proposed route.

An LGA Air Train isn't going to suit everyone, but it will work for some, and provides a lower cost option for many to get to the airport. Plus it should help alleviate some gridlock and pressure on the roads (if people use it).
 
jetmatt777
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:53 pm

Even if it won't work well for local in Manhattan, tourists and visitors are very likely to use it.

If it means I sit on a train for a total of 45 minutes, versus 30 minutes in a cab and saving $30, I won't complain. That extra 15 minutes can be made up easily by reading an extra news article or opinion piece on the smartphone or tablet. Not the end of the world, really.

First world problems. Something will take 10 minutes longer. Big deal.
 
commavia
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 8):
You will be the only one.

I doubt it highly.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
No residents to deal with

No environmentalists to deal with

No political support needed to win over

THIS IS PRICELESS IN NEW YORK

True - sad, but very true.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 15):
Even if it won't work well for local in Manhattan, tourists and visitors are very likely to use it.

If it means I sit on a train for a total of 45 minutes, versus 30 minutes in a cab and saving $30, I won't complain.

This will, indeed, be the key - the cost/convenience trade-off. Personally, the express bus from LGA right into Grand Central will likely still be preferable for going into the city - at least for midtown, and especially the east side - but where I (and I think plenty of others) will definitely use this is for when heading not to the city, but to Queens itself.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:26 pm

does the plan call for connecting into the JFK airtrain? That would be worth its weight in gold. There are so many upsides to this
 
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:39 pm

This is the only proposal for a rail link to LGA that actually has a chance of being built. It may not be perfect, but neither are the EWR or JFK AirTrains - and I argued against them at the time just like some of you are arguing against this now.

Who would take this? Someone who doesn't want to pay $40 for a taxi.

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 13):
he M60 is a much better option for those going to uptown Manhattan/Bronx

Well sure, and that option's not going away. Neither are the taxis.

This is another *option*. We've been talking about a rail link to LGA for years - now here it is. Nobody ever said that rail link - even the most ideal rail link you could imagine - would be right for *everyone*. If you're not going somewhere that the train stops close to, then of course it's not going to be the best option for you.

But the 7 stops in Times Square and the LIRR stops at Penn Station. A lot of people *are* going to places nearby those terminals.
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werdywerd
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
This is the path of least resistance.

Actually, this is

Link: http://i.imgur.com/FAaHQ7f.jpg

The entire AirTrain would run along the Grand Central Parkway. I think this is the far better route to go, but I have a feeling , like you said, that the plan is to purposely have folks landing in LGA to have a very easy way to get to CitiField for events, concerts, games, etc. Tennis, Malls etc....

[Edited 2015-01-21 06:45:53]
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:38 pm

That was the original plan except with the N train running it in the late 90s. Supposed to cost $600 million then.

Funds diverted by Guiliani post 9/11 for transit projects in Manhattan.

That project faced opposition from Astoria residents. This will face none.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 19):
Actually, this is

I think the problem with this option is N/Q & Amtrak bridges in the vicinity could cause a huge problem

I think the LGA Airtrain should be routed through Jamaica, it would end up following GCP right into LGA. Same rail connections afforded by the JFK Airtrain
 
VictorKilo
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 20):
That was the original plan except with the N train running it in the late 90s. Supposed to cost $600 million then.

....and I'm sure that it would cost more than that now. Yes, the state has the right of way on the Grand Central Parkway, but the Grand Central is much narrower than, for example, the Dan Ryan in Chicago, which has the Red Line of the L running right down the middle near Comiskey Park. With the elevation in real estate values, the cost of the land to make the project work would be a major barrier. There's more open land alongside the Grand Cental on the route down to Willets Point, plus the LIRR connections.
 
wjcandee
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:02 pm

That 1.5 mile stretch of Grand Central does clog up at times, but not so often or so horribly that they couldn't experiment with a sensible bus service to see what kind of business they could generate. Why not run a mid-size bus, free, to the subway at Shea Stadium on 5 minute headways from 5am to Midnight, and see what that unbelievably-less-expensive solution could generate before spending (oops...it went up already) $450 Million on this boondoggle.
 
deltaguy767
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 21):
I think the LGA Airtrain should be routed through Jamaica, it would end up following GCP right into LGA. Same rail connections afforded by the JFK Airtrain

I could see this ending up taking a 'Phased' approach much like the 2nd Avenue Subway:

Phase 1: Citi Field-LGA (Terminals C/D and CTB)
Phase 2: CTB-MAT/Rental Cars/Long Term Parking
Phase 3: Citi Field-Jamaica
Phase 4: MAT/Rental Cars/Long Term Parking-Astoria

As others have stated, Citi Field being the terminus would encounter the least amount of NIMBY interference. Would it be the most ideal setup for Manhattanites? No, but the critical thing is providing options other than roadways to LGA. Any regular LGA user knows how congested the access roads to the airport and the GCP-278 are from morning-evening because that's the only game in town. Taking even some cars off the LGA approach and service roads would go a long way. This phased approach is the best way to wear down NIMBYs, get folks in the city using the service and show how great it is/can be and the arguments grow weaker against those wanting to use a more developed route structure.
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STT757
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
THIS IS PRICELESS IN NEW YORK



As a born and raised NY'er let me be the first to say slow down. Remember the Giant casino and convention center tied in with an Airtrain connection from JFK? Cuomo talked that up too.

The barriers that prevented that from coming to fruition is also at play here, the Airtrain connection is great. It will be wildy popular, but we've seen this enthusiasm for periphial development before with the JFK Airtrain. Local politicians, the Port Authority etc.. were boasting that the JFK Airtrain would be a huge catalyst for transforming the area around Jamaica station. Skyscrapers, hotels, convention centers etc.. were being promoted. There was even talk of moving Jetblue to a new office building next to Jamaica station.

Jamaica is a transfer point, folks don't want to stay or work there, they're heading someplace else (Manhattan, Long Island etc..) LGA Airtrain will be similar, no one is going to want to live, work or stay overnight at Willets Point because the Airtrain goes there, it's a connecting point.

As I mentioned the LGA Airtrain will be succesful, what I'm wondering if it will have a negative effect on domestic within perimeter competing flights from JFK (mostly Jetblue). JFK already suffers domestically, except for Florida and outside perimeter, due to competition from LGA. Adding rail connection to LGA cannot do anything by exasperate that phenomenon. Not saying what is happening with IAD and DCA would occur, but it doesn't help.
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Thread starter):
The better way would be to extend to the west (towards Manhattan instead of away from it) to the N/Q train and have a one seat ride to Manhattan

look at the N/Q line. look at LGA. look what's between the two - an elevated Amtrak line. obstacle #1. look at the structure that would need to be created at Astoria/Ditmars. look at the existing layout of the land. obstacle #2. look at the runway layout and it's proximity to the parkway. obstacle #3
going east is the only viable option.

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 1):
take the #7 to Jackson Heights and grab the Express Bus

wow. you're suggesting that's quicker? let's all chuckle together.

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 1):
This seems like a perfect plan to wind up with a useless pink elephant, which would be of absolutely no use to anybody in Manhattan. Why would anybody in Manhattan go all the way out to Shea Stadium, so that they can backtrack back to LGA with this new train?

1. 7 Express service. From Qboro Plaza the 7 Express makes limited stops and shoots you right out to Mets/Willets. i live on this train during the U.S. Open. It's wonderful. The problem is - it's one directional.
2. It's not even a huge backtrack. Look at a map. Laguardia is right by CitiField. You can stand at the top of Arthur Ashe Stadium or CitiField and look over and see the planes touching the runway at Laguardia and you're close enough to tell if it's a 737-700 or a 737-800 as they're coming in.

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 1):
This makes total sense, so of course it can't happen. A good number of LGA workers live in Astoria.

the M60 isn't going anywhere.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 6):
An AirTrain to Willets Point does go in the opposite direction of Manhattan, but it may be the only way to get such a link built. At least it'll offer both subway and LIRR connectivity.

LIRR service from Willets Point stinks. As of now, it's not even a scheduled station but only provides services during baseball and U.S. Open events. The Port Washington Line offers a few trains per hour during peak and outside of that, what, a train per hour?
The LIRR station at Willets is also a nice hefty walk towards the Billie Jean King Tennis Center. It's also not a pleasant walk. It's literally a bridge of wooden planks. It's not smooth. If it's hot, it's hella hot. If it's raining, it's miserable. If it's cold outside, you freeze. The LIRR station is also not covered. No way in hell will you want to do this with luggage.
Does this AirTrain plan include redoing this walk, covering it, providing heating/air conditioning/shelter and some restrooms? Otherwise, no thanks.

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 10):
I guess digging a tunnel from Grand Central to LGA is too expensive. Too bad.

Only roughly $1 billion and 5 years or so per mile.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
Oh and that Citi Field owner Fred Wilpon building the huge mall there...I bet he likes the link too

You can bet the USTA and that giant Tennis Center at that stop like the airport link too

This doesn't benefit any of those.


All in all, it sounds like a wonderful idea, but there are some hesitations -
1. 7 Train. When the 7 train is up and going on a regular schedule, it's great, but when it's down for repairs, it's down for repairs. The current project work on the 7, which shuts it down, which seems like every other weekend, claims to be adding 3 to 4 more trains per hour. That's nice. But still, work will need to be done on the 7 at times. If the 7 goes down, you're looking at making dual or triple connections along the route just to get to midtown. The 7 is a popular train. The 7 is crowded. When the 7 goes down and you have to use the N/Q as an alternate to Queensboro Plaza, those trains are packed. Have fun getting on with luggage.

2. The LIRR would be a good compliment to the 7, such as Newark has Amtrak/NJ Transit and will be complimented by PATH and the AirTrain at JFK has the LIRR complimented by the E train.

3. However, looking for good compliments, requires the MTA to do something. Does anyone think the MTA would add express-run services originating from Willets Point into Manhattan? It's possible it could happen *HOWEVER* with this, in a pipe dream coming online in 2020, that's the exact same time when Amtrak has announced it will begin shutting down the four East River tunnels, for a year or more each for complete and total repairs. It's hard to imagine the LIRR adding trains during this time.

4. It's possible with the current 7 train line repairs you might see an increase of *express* service on the 7, however, the problem with express service is that it is only able to run one direction at a time. You can't have both express in and out. So, you might have a few more 7 trains in there *somehow* in some manner, but it's not as effective as it sounds.


Off the top on paper this sounds like a wonderful and terrific idea. But the realities are far different and it's clear many people in Albany do not come into New York City often and experience the public transit system they believe they can govern.

[Edited 2015-01-21 11:05:36]
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alberchico
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:03 pm

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 19):
Actually, this is

Link: http://i.imgur.com/FAaHQ7f.jpg

The entire AirTrain would run along the Grand Central Parkway.

If you look carefully at the map running an elevated rail line along the Grand Central Parkway would bring it too close to runway 4 which is often used for landings.

http://www.randpeckaviationphotography.com/uploads/2/4/3/3/24331262/1759076_orig.jpg

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 12):
No residents to deal with

No environmentalists to deal with

No political support needed to win over

THIS IS PRICELESS IN NEW YORK

        

As someone who lives in Queens you have no idea how big a pain in the ass NIMBYS are in this city...
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HKG212
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:21 am

What many here seem to forget is that you need more than an alignment and service schedules to make an airport rail link work. There has to be a proper, comfortable transfer station (given that it's not direct service), ideally better than what you have in Jamaica, Howard Beach, and Newark Airport.

Quoting curiousflyer (Reply 10):
connecting at Woodside would have been better.

From the routing point of view, certainly, but squeezing an Airtrain concourse at that cramped site would have been nearly impossible, even without the NIMBY issues.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 25):
The LIRR station at Willets is also a nice hefty walk towards the Billie Jean King Tennis Center. It's also not a pleasant walk. It's literally a bridge of wooden planks. It's not smooth. If it's hot, it's hella hot. If it's raining, it's miserable. If it's cold outside, you freeze. The LIRR station is also not covered. No way in hell will you want to do this with luggage.
Does this AirTrain plan include redoing this walk, covering it, providing heating/air conditioning/shelter and some restrooms? Otherwise, no thanks.

Of course it has to include that, and much more. I am not too familiar with the site, but it looks spacious enough to accommodate an Airtrain terminus between the Number 7 and LIRR stations, of course with comfortable link bridges, which one hopes will be weather controlled, equipped with moving walkways, etc.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:37 pm

This is the original announcement from 14 years ago.

http://www.ibo.nyc.ny.us/newsfax/laguardiarail.html


It was to be a one seat ride via Ditmars on the N Line thru Astoria.


A much better plan. But a plan never built due to 1. 9/11 and subsequent transit costs (rebuilding) 2. 2 Ave Subway 3. Astoria opposition
 
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 28):
Of course it has to include that, and much more. I am not too familiar with the site, but it looks spacious enough to accommodate an Airtrain terminus between the Number 7 and LIRR stations, of course with comfortable link bridges, which one hopes will be weather controlled, equipped with moving walkways, etc.

The 7 train storage yard is there. The infrastructure and needs of the yard would most likely get in the wya of any support system needed for such an endeavor.
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uberflieger
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Thread starter):
Another AirTrain for NYC! LGA. It would connect to the #7 train and LIRR at Willets Point/LIRR

A big    from me. This is the most pragmatic proposal with a good chance to get done.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:30 pm

There is plenty of space there to do whatever is needed.

Current station and walkway are above or around 7 yard. You are dealing with Citi Field parking lot to the west commuter lot to the east where a larger transfer station could be built.

The LIRR station is one of the worst in the system though. More like a temporary thing from the Worlds Fair in 1964 that now serves the US Open and Mets games. That really would have to be redone completely along with the wooden walkway.

The wooden walkway is an outdoor boardwalk like esplanade with flags on either side that was built for the Worlds Fair and is used as the entrance to the US Open from the 7 train.

This would have to be totally rebuilt or supplemented with an enclosed elevated walkway (think between the stations and terminals at JFK).
 
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thekorean
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:31 pm

There are multiple tracks at Willets Point. Maybe LIRR should think about running LGA express trains from Grand Central and Penn.
 
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 32):
There is plenty of space there to do whatever is needed.

No, there is not.

Again, do the homework. When the repairs on the 7 train that are being done now are "complete" in 2016, the 7 will have the ability to have 3-4 more trains per hour in each direction. When the extension to the Javits Center is complete, the 7 will then have the capacity to have more trains on the line.
This little "space" that you all think is entirely useable is the only maintenance yard/area for the 7 train on the entire line. With more trains, more yard and more maintenance space is needed. A physical expansion of the 7 yard has been outlined in their 5-10 year plan. The MTA bus garage would either move out entirely and the 7 maintenance shops expand or the MTA bus garage moves over into one of the open parking lots that is already there in existence. Given its proximity to the highways, major roads, and the fact they already own the land, I don't see the bus shops moving to another far off location. I see them building where the MTA already owns property.
So, *NO*, you cannot just simply go building an AirTrain terminal there like it's no big deal.
Depending on any proposed structure, I can see the USTA launching a lawsuit to stop it because a structure could get in the way of their shots from satellite truck row. All the trucks park along Perimeter Road and aim north. I wouldn't put it past the USTA to have airspace rights in that area.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 33):
There are multiple tracks at Willets Point. Maybe LIRR should think about running LGA express trains from Grand Central and Penn.

Grand Central, possible, depending on if the work ever gets done. Problem for John Q customer is fighting the overcrowded 4/5/6 train with their luggage.
Running them to Penn Station on the LIRR - Penn is already crowded for platform space and the East River Tunnels leading into Penn are due to closure for a year or more at a time each starting in roughly 2023, 2024, etc.



If Willets Point LIRR was re-done into a working train station, the total construction that would be required to rebuild the walkway, basically rebuild the station into a working full time terminus, staffing it, making it ADA compliant, that's probably another $75 million or so, if not more for construction, materials, time, and labor.
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uberflieger
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 33):
There are multiple tracks at Willets Point. Maybe LIRR should think about running LGA express trains from Grand Central and Penn

That would be fantastic.   
 
N1120A
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 1):

This seems like a perfect plan to wind up with a useless pink elephant, which would be of absolutely no use to anybody in Manhattan.

Really? Cause you are wrong.

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 1):
It would be much easier, cheaper, and faster to extend the #7 or the N to LGA, but that wouldn't present as many opportunities for graft, particularly after Cuomo went to so much trouble to abolish the anti-corruption commission that would oversee such a project

Oh please. Do you know what it costs to tunnel? What kind of disruption is created?

Quoting planemannyc (Reply 5):
I know it won't be cheap (and funding for this line was not very clearly identified).

Funding has been very clearly identified. Most is to come from the $5b they are getting from criminal and civil settlements with banks.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 6):
In Cuomo's defense, attempts to build either an AirTrain or subway extension between LGA and Astoria Blvd or Jackson Heights-Roosevelt Avenue have been unsuccessful due to opposition from local residents.

It would be significantly more disruptive. While I love going after NIMBYs, you do have to consider things like disrupting lives, over doing a route over some empty or relatively empty space.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 6):

An AirTrain to Willets Point does go in the opposite direction of Manhattan, but it may be the only way to get such a link built. At least it'll offer both subway and LIRR connectivity.

Not to mention practicality in that it can service more than just LGA.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 18):

But the 7 stops in Times Square and the LIRR stops at Penn Station. A lot of people *are* going to places nearby those terminals.

Yup.

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 13):
The M60 is a much better option for those going to uptown Manhattan/Bronx, especially since it became a select bus service.

And for the business people and tourists that go to Midtown and Lower Manhattan, this is useless.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 15):

Even if it won't work well for local in Manhattan, tourists and visitors are very likely to use it.

I would definitely use it, and I think many like me would.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 15):
If it means I sit on a train for a total of 45 minutes, versus 30 minutes in a cab and saving $30, I won't complain. That extra 15 minutes can be made up easily by reading an extra news article or opinion piece on the smartphone or tablet. Not the end of the world, really.

Also, trains are not subject to the vagaries of traffic. As LAX772LR mentioned above, there are plenty of external forces that can interfere. Far more than with trains on dedicated Rights of Way.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 17):

does the plan call for connecting into the JFK airtrain? That would be worth its weight in gold. There are so many upsides to this

That would be amazing. How well do they line up?

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 18):

This is the only proposal for a rail link to LGA that actually has a chance of being built.

Yep.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 18):
Who would take this? Someone who doesn't want to pay $40 for a taxi.

Also,

Someone who doesn't want to be subjected to traffic issues,

Someone who doesn't want a driver to take the for a ride, especially with Bridge v. Tunnel,

Someone who cares about the earth...

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 19):
The entire AirTrain would run along the Grand Central Parkway. I think this is the far better route to go, but I have a feeling , like you said, that the plan is to purposely have folks landing in LGA to have a very easy way to get to CitiField for events, concerts, games, etc. Tennis, Malls etc....

It makes sense to build a link that will draw as much ridership as possible.

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 21):
I think the LGA Airtrain should be routed through Jamaica, it would end up following GCP right into LGA. Same rail connections afforded by the JFK Airtrain

That would probably create logistical issues.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 34):
Grand Central, possible, depending on if the work ever gets done.

East Side Access should happen reasonably soon. Its actually a key part of the Penn/Moynihan Station project.
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Mir
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 18):
This is the only proposal for a rail link to LGA that actually has a chance of being built. It may not be perfect, but neither are the EWR or JFK AirTrains

But is it worth all that money? At least the EWR and JFK AirTrains connect to large rail lines. This goes to nowhere.

It would be far better for all involved if they took a fraction of that money and put it toward express buses, one to the Astoria Boulevard N/Q station and one to the Main Street 7 station, with no stops in between. You wouldn't have to worry about game day congestion on the 7 during the summer, the N and Q use larger cars so there's more room for luggage, they offer more connections in Manhattan, etc. Not as shiny as a train, but a whole lot more cost effective.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 18):
Who would take this? Someone who doesn't want to pay $40 for a taxi.

I don't want to pay $40 for a taxi and I still won't take it.

Quoting werdywerd (Reply 19):
I have a feeling , like you said, that the plan is to purposely have folks landing in LGA to have a very easy way to get to CitiField for events, concerts, games, etc. Tennis, Malls etc....

I wonder how many passengers flying into LGA are going directly to Citi. Especially with the bag policies in effect there. I'm going to ber the number is very, very small.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 26):
Quoting jfkgig (Reply 1):
take the #7 to Jackson Heights and grab the Express Bus

wow. you're suggesting that's quicker? let's all chuckle together.

Having taken the express bus to Jackson Heights, it probably is quicker. The bus was actually the fast part - the 7 took forever, and I was kicking myself for not taking the E instead (which is another benefit of the Jackson Heights bus - it connects to more than one subway line).

-Mir
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N1120A
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:09 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
But is it worth all that money? At least the EWR and JFK AirTrains connect to large rail lines. This goes to nowhere.

The 7 train goes to Times Square and Grand Central, both huge transport hubs and dense hotel/business areas. The LIRR goes to Penn, another major hub.

Quoting Mir (Reply 37):
It would be far better for all involved if they took a fraction of that money and put it toward express buses

People don't take buses. This has been studied.
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thekorean
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 34):

By the time Airtrain to LGA opens Grand Central will have access to LIRR. The tunnel to the Grand Central is almost finished, hard part is over.
 
stlgph
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:30 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
East Side Access should happen reasonably soon. Its actually a key part of the Penn/Moynihan Station project.
Quoting thekorean (Reply 39):
By the time Airtrain to LGA opens Grand Central will have access to LIRR. The tunnel to the Grand Central is almost finished, hard part is over.

"East Side Access" is still 10 years away.

And come to think of it, another problem with the LIRR station at Willets Point is the scheduling of special trains for baseball/tennis services. LIRR dispatching and spacing would definitely create traffic flow problems.
For dedicated AirTrain terminal services, there would have to be a station rebuild with another platform/track added. So that $75 million I mentioned earlier, just slap another $50 million or so on top of it. If there isn't dedicated train services, then you're looking at just staying with a train every half hour, and if that means only one train per hour into Penn and only one train per hour into Grand Central, that's not going to be going over very well with many folks. They'd rather just cab it.
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Mir
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
The 7 train goes to Times Square and Grand Central, both huge transport hubs and dense hotel/business areas. The LIRR goes to Penn, another major hub.

Unfortunately, the AirTrain wouldn't be going to either of those.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
People don't take buses.

I took the Jackson Heights express bus at 10pm, and it had a decent number of people on it. People aren't inclined to take buses that stop all the time, sure, but that's not what I'm proposing.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
stlgph
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):

Yes, people *do* take buses in NYC.

However, I, along with a large number of other folks, prefer the cabs or the black car services. They pull up, I put my bag in, get in, check my emails, do my phone calls, etc. on the ride, get to the terminal, get out, get my bags handed to me and walk right into the terminal. Hauling suitcases across the 7 train network??? .. I'd rather take a bath of acid.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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thekorean
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 40):

If we factor in delays on AirTrain construction I say I am still most likely to be correct. Airtrain to LGA would not be operational until LIRR has access to Grand Central.
 
stlgph
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 43):
If we factor in delays on AirTrain construction I say I am still most likely to be correct. Airtrain to LGA would not be operational until LIRR has access to Grand Central.

Even then, an LIRR connection doesnt offer any benefits if you're splitting the service between Penn Station and Grand Central. There's a convenience of going to Penn Station and hopping on a number of trains departing within the next 10-20 minutes which will make that stop in Jamaica. If you cannibalize the Port Washington Line into Penn & GC you're looking at a train once every 30 minutes or so from each station. If I can't casually show up, walk on the next train to Willets Point, I may as well just hop in a cab at that point. Of if I'm on the UES, head up to 125 and take the M60. I'd get there much faster, defeating the purpose of this whole new system.
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delimit
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 42):
However, I, along with a large number of other folks, prefer the cabs or the black car services. They pull up, I put my bag in, get in, check my emails, do my phone calls, etc. on the ride, get to the terminal, get out, get my bags handed to me and walk right into the terminal. Hauling suitcases across the 7 train network??? .. I'd rather take a bath of acid.

The subway/AirTrain combo to JFK sure are popular. There's a lot of people who obviously feel differently.
 
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thekorean
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 44):

7 trains have express service that cut time to get to Manhattan.
 
stlgph
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 46):

The 7 runs express into Manhattan in the morning and does not run on weekends. The time savings is only between 5 and 10 minutes, sometimes longer if bumper times at the end terminals are off. Same with the evening commute.

Have you ever ridden the 7 train during rush hour? No way in hell would I attempt that with suitcases.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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United787
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:19 pm

Congrats to NYC, hopefully this really happens. Thankfully, NYC will finally have rail transit options to all three of its airports but it is embarrassing that they are substandard to other cities in it's class. I am not from NYC, so I don't quite understand all of the politics combined with NIMBYism, but I feel that NYC's inability to improve it's infrastructure on a large scale will have long lasting negative affects on the City and it's place in the world. Even London with some of the same problems (look at LHR's 3rd runway), can still implement major infrastructure projects...

I am disappointed that there won't be direct access from the airport to the MTA and/or LIRR. I think having the intermediate Airtrain is limiting for many visitors to NYC. Public transit can be daunting for any visitor to any city and so there already is a reduced pool of potential users. Add in the extra connection/transfer and that pool gets reduced further. As soon as someone hears the word "transfer", I can see them thinking, forget it, I will just suck it up and take a cab.
 
MavyWavyATR
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RE: NY Gov To Build Rail Link To LGA

Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:30 pm

I honestly don't see this working at all. Here are my reasons:


-LGA doesn't offer a vast variety of destinations and connections unlike neighboring JFK & EWR as well as the 1500 mile perimeter rule restricting possible growth.

-As alberchico pointed out in reply 27, part of the planned link comes way too close to runway 4. What would happen if you mix the train cars with jet blast and low approaches?


Honestly, if the PANYNJ wanted to expand airport rail systems, the budget on the proposed LGA rail link could be well better spent on expanding the existing AirTrain system at JFK to connect nearby Breezy Point/ Coney Island or even Staten Island. Or if they wanted to, they could run a line directly into Manhatten from both JFK and EWR.

   from a native New Yorker.

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