vw
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2000 8:39 am

Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:31 pm

Air Canada announced summer service Toronto to Atlantic City. Thoughts?
http://m.pressofatlanticcity.com/new...e4-a4c9-ef00b6ec05d9.html?mode=jqm
 
acws777
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:43 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:50 pm

Don't see the point of this route when passengers tend to like Vegas better. This seems like a RJ route.
 
yyztpa
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:12 pm

From the linked article:

Quoting acws777 (Reply 1):
Don't see the point of this route when passengers tend to like Vegas better.

"The Toronto route will be protected from losses by $705,000 in yearly subsidies from the Casino Reinvestment Development Authority, the state agency that oversees Atlantic City tourism and redevelopment projects."

Quoting acws777 (Reply 1):
This seems like a RJ route.

"Mullins said Air Canada will use a 74-seat turboprop plane, with flights taking about 90 minutes. The smaller turboprop plane is a better aircraft for a start-up route instead of using a large jet"
 
Airontario
Posts: 673
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 12:04 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:43 pm

Seems odd to begin the service out of YYZ as opposed to YUL. The Jersey Shore is not popular at all among those in the Toronto area.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4463
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:02 pm

This has been tried before by Westjet and it bombed

I can see on paper this being a route the city wanted. Drive thru Cape May or on the Parkway south of exit 50 you see just Quebec and Ontario plates everywhere. No secret the Canadians like the Jersey Shore but they only like it because its close and they can drive there easily for a quick get-a-way. The whole motivation of the jersey shore is to load the kids in the family mini van or suv and head off. If you are buying tickets and airport customs and canadian taxes to fly why not fly a little further and in Myrtle Beach or Florida or somewhere with more to offer? The entire appeal of the Jersey Shore is that you can drive. Plus to be honest i see ALOT more Quebec plates in south jersey than ontario

I don't blame AC for taking the route they are taking a chance but it seems like an uphill battle unless Harrahs plans on flying alot of their very loyal guests down frequently or something we don't know.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17867
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:52 pm

One summer only. Book now!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 4):
This has been tried before by Westjet and it bombed

I think WestJet ran it in the winter but offered mainline service and low fares. Air Canada is running it in the summer with regional jet and likely it sell seats at high fares.

I think AC is only going for the subsidy money.
 
nkops
Posts: 2220
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:17 pm

I am sure Caesars Ent has a hand in this, Republic runs charters from YYZ on occasion
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
MavyWavyATR
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:52 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:26 pm

I wonder who's gonna operate the Q400's on the route; Jazz or Sky Regional?
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:33 pm

ACY desperately needs this. 2014 has been brutal for the city, with multiple casino closings.

But running these with Q400 is definitely a lot lower risk than gas-guzzling E145s that UA used all the way to IAH. I mean seriously, anyone who lives west of IAH would have a shorter trip to LAS anyway.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6444
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 4):
This has been tried before by Westjet and it bombed

Canadian tried it before that with B737s. They were full, but likely they were charters.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 6):
I think AC is only going for the subsidy money.

AC has over $1B a month in revenues ... I don't think they'd jump at $58,000 a month in subsidies. Clearly, they think they can make money on this route.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
nkops
Posts: 2220
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:46 pm

The problem with WestJet was it was a 2145 arrival and 2230 departure... awful times. Plus, they flew November until March, the slowest possible time. BTW, back in the early 90's, AC flew DC9 into ACY with weekend charter service. I think AC is doing this the smart way by only doing summer service, and 4x weekly.... hope it works out
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6444
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting nkops (Reply 11):
The problem with WestJet was it was a 2145 arrival and 2230 departure... awful times.

At Canadian, it was a "day trip" for passengers. It left early out of YYZ arriving around 0900. Then they left that evening around 2000 back to YYZ. The aircraft, (and crew) sat there all day.

The aircraft was a Combi, but put in a full Y configuration. They were usually idle on weekends.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting vw (Thread starter):
Air Canada announced summer service Toronto to Atlantic City. Thoughts?
http://m.pressofatlanticcity.com/new...e=jqm

My thoughts are that this will probably not do very well but if they are receiving subsidies from Atlantic City area organisations, it might not matter. For one thing, there are plenty of Indian casinos significantly closer to eastern Canada than Atlantic City, so people who just like to gamble can drive to Mohegan Sun in Connecticut or multiple casinos in upstate New York for cheaper than flying to Atlantic City. People in Quebec more often go to New England beaches than the Jersey Shore and that's just the reality of places like York Beach, Maine being significantly closer (and having more cultural ties with large Francophone communities in places like Lewiston, Maine).

Secondly, the Canadian dollar is tanking right now; in case no one else has noticed, it got as low as .80 cents to the US Dollar today, which is low enough that it is starting to have a significant impact on cross-border leisure travel by Canadians. By all things I've read on CBC and the NY Times, it is expected that the CAD could drop to .77 cents in the near future and will stay at around .80-.85 cents long term through 2015, including this summer. At that exchange rate, non-business travel from Canada to the US is simply unaffordable, particularly when there are cheaper alternatives. This is economics. If the dollar was at parity it might be a different story but folks looking just to gamble can do it a heck of a lot cheaper in upstate NY or New England and I don't buy the argument that Jersey beaches are a significant enough attraction to justify traveling further than the Great Lakes or New England for summer vacationers when the CAD is at .80 cents.

Quoting acws777 (Reply 1):
Don't see the point of this route when passengers tend to like Vegas better.

I agree that Vegas is more strongly favoured by Canadians but I doubt many Canadians from Ontario/Quebec/Maritimes will be going to either location. Again, for most leisure destination vacationers, Cuba and Mexico are now a hell of a lot cheaper than the US with the current exchange rate, and for people who are more focused on gambling specifically, there are much closer Indian casinos in upstate NY and New England than Jersey.

Quoting yyztpa (Reply 2):
"The Toronto route will be protected from losses by $705,000 in yearly subsidies from the Casino Reinvestment Development Authority, the state agency that oversees Atlantic City tourism and redevelopment projects."

So it's almost like a private industry EAS for AC. I think these subsidies are probably going to be the only reason why this route isn't a bomb for AC this summer, for the reasons I outlined above. No doubt that there is a significant Canadian presence on east coast beaches, but things WILL change with the declining Canadian dollar - it's not a guestimate to presume that.

Quoting Airontario (Reply 3):

Seems odd to begin the service out of YYZ as opposed to YUL.

Why? YYZ has more connections and is the larger airport. Additionally, people in Quebec tend to travel more to the Maine coast (particularly Bar Harbor, Old Orchard Beach and York/Kennebunkport) and Cape Cod than to the mid-Atlantic based on my experience living in both regions.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 6):
I think WestJet ran it in the winter but offered mainline service and low fares. Air Canada is running it in the summer with regional jet and likely it sell seats at high fares.

I think AC is only going for the subsidy money.

And it probably still will only break even. I doubt they'll do this again for summer 2016 unless the exchange rate is substantially better.
Tom
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 4):
Drive thru Cape May or on the Parkway south of exit 50 you see just Quebec and Ontario plates everywhere. No secret the Canadians like the Jersey Shore but they only like it because its close and they can drive there easily for a quick get-a-way.

More for Ontario than Quebec. No doubt there are Quebecois visiting the shore, but I'd define 'popular' as some of the coastal communities in Maine during the summer, where literally more than half of the summer vacationers and/or residents are from Quebec - you can go to places like York Beach or Old Orchard Beach in August and not see anything but Quebec licence plates. I definitely agree with you that Ontario folks tend to go more to the mid-Atlantic simply because it's the closest path to the Atlantic and the Jersey Shore does have a great infrastructure for summer vacationers, but I think you also have to keep in mind that the economic reality of vacationing in the US is changing for most middle class Canadians.

As I mentioned in another post, the Canadian dollar is nosediving. It has lost approximately 20% of its value against the US dollar in the last year; from 2010-2014 it was close to parity (and at brief points actually worth more than the USD). But in the last year, and particularly in the last few months due to the US economy getting stronger and worldwide oil prices dropping, the CAD has dropped in value against the USD. At present it's at ~.81 cents to the dollar, which is a significant drop from just last summer when it was in the low to mid .90 cent range, or three years ago when it was worth more than the US dollar. If you go on CBC right now and read about all of this in the headlines, you'll note that economists are predicting a sustained decline in the CAD versus the USD and that it will be at around .80-.85 cents to the dollar throughout 2015.

My point is this - things are changing. The US will always be the #1 destination for Canadians simply because of geographic proximity and a common shared language. However, airports like BTV and BLI are already experiencing passenger declines due to less Canadians traveling to/through US airports. Cities with a large business presence will not be hit too hard but there has been and will continue to be a noticeable decline in Canadians vacationing in the US because it is simply less affordable now, and in some cases, significantly less affordable than going to places like Mexico or Cuba where our dollar is still strong and buys a lot.
Tom
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6444
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 13):
For one thing, there are plenty of Indian casinos significantly closer to eastern Canada than Atlantic City, so people who just like to gamble can drive to Mohegan Sun in Connecticut or multiple casinos in upstate New York for cheaper than flying to Atlantic City.

For that matter there are a LOT of casinos in Ontario and Quebec, some Native owned. While Vegas offers more than just gambling to visitors, Atlantic City pales by comparison. The draw for ACY was certainly there in the past, but with dozens of casinos on this side of the border now ... why bother?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
fanofjets
Posts: 2010
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2000 2:26 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting yyztpa (Reply 2):
"The Toronto route will be protected from losses by $705,000 in yearly subsidies from the Casino Reinvestment Development Authority, the state agency that oversees Atlantic City tourism and redevelopment projects."

As a New Jerseyan, I smell our usual corrupt politics. As a NJ taxpayer, I am concerned. US Air used to have a flight there with a DC-9; that didn't last long, and that was before there were competing casinos in Pennsylvania. I knew back in 1976 that legalizing gambling in the Garden State was a very bad idea. Unfortunately, I was too young to vote.

The best I can do is wish AC the best of luck.
The aeroplane has unveiled for us the true face of the earth. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
polaris
Posts: 1151
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:16 am

What's the problem? Seasonal service to Vail, Mont Tremblant, and now, Atlantic City. These are resort destinations served on a seasonal basis. I don't understand all the negativity.
 
crownvic
Posts: 2564
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:16 am

And to think that back in the late 70s and early 80s, ACY was getting multiple Worldways L1011s and stretched DC-8s several days a week, without batting an eye. How things have changed  
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:27 am

Growing up in NJ, I witnessed the insane amount of Canada plates during the summer at the Jersey shore. Seems logical for AC.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
ipodguy7
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:44 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting Polaris (Reply 17):
What's the problem?

The problem is that AC is a dying community, its a shell of what it used to be back in the glamorous days. I cannot see how this flight will work out. With extensive existing coverage by AC to vacation destinations spanning the US and Carribean, I can't see why Canadians would want to visit Atlantic City. Of course, I hope this works out, but I am not optimistic on the outcome. As a previous poster noted, I doubt this will be around come the end of the season. The fact that no major airlines serve any airport outside of EWR in the state of NJ should be a sign. If Americans won't even go to AC, why would Canadians make the trek (with customs, etc). Plus, as noted above the CADUSD XC rate is not very favorable for Canadian travelers at the moment. Vail and Mont Tremblant serve very, very different clientele than AC. Vail is marketed to the very wealthy traveler, wheras AC is more the "Greyhound" market.

[Edited 2015-01-21 20:35:28]
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AS/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ/JL
 
crownvic
Posts: 2564
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:38 am

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 20):
The fact that no major airlines serve any airport outside of EWR in the state of NJ should be a sign.

Spirit has become a big airline and serves ACY

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 20):
If Americans won't even go to AC, why would Canadians make the trek (with customs, etc).

Because they still have the best sub sandwiches anywhere in the world! My family travels clear across the country once a year, just to eat in Atlantic City and the downbeach communities, which are still very nice summer destinations.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4463
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:34 am

Looks like this will be a Q400 prop

Caesars and Harrahs in AC are pretty nice places, a true full service casino hotel with nice restaurants/bars casino floor all the amenities you need. AC has some great large casino floors for the true gamblers. They have something to offer and do get people on those charters.

I do hope Caesars will use this flight like a charter flight and purchase/offer some amazing package deals. I don't see any chance of success without Caesars so i hope they will offer at least some excellent package deals or low mileage redemption opportunities on packages or something? Lets be honest Air Canada is in for the subsidy they probably have nothing to lose, they know theres demand the question is can you get them to fly?


Hey star alliance is back in AC on a positive note. These flights probably wont link well to Europe or canadian flights in YYZ i am guessing since it looks like they are gearing the timing for YYZ based travelers according to the article.

AC is either
Atlantic City
Air Canada......lets hope they can get some marketing ad or billboard on that
 
nkops
Posts: 2220
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:17 pm

Caesars will probably be booking on these flights, they do that with the NK seasonal flights. There is also more of a draw to the Jersey Shore than just AC... The Wildwoods and Cape May are big draws also during the summer
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:18 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
For that matter there are a LOT of casinos in Ontario and Quebec, some Native owned. While Vegas offers more than just gambling to visitors, Atlantic City pales by comparison. The draw for ACY was certainly there in the past, but with dozens of casinos on this side of the border now ... why bother?

  

Quoting Polaris (Reply 17):
What's the problem? Seasonal service to Vail, Mont Tremblant, and now, Atlantic City. These are resort destinations served on a seasonal basis. I don't understand all the negativity.

No problem here - just discussing the route and it happens that there are a lot of facts working against it, like the horrible exchange rate right now (coupled with the fact that this is a tourist route, not a business route). Skiing and gambling are apples to oranges in this context; someone from Hamilton, ON for example has a short drive to the closest casino but would have to drive a lot longer for skiing, thus making air travel more attractive.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
Growing up in NJ, I witnessed the insane amount of Canada plates during the summer at the Jersey shore. Seems logical for AC.

Canadian travel to the US is always going to exist for the aforementioned reasons, but tourism from Canada is influenced by exchange rates. It's no coincidence that border airports in the US are seeing noticeable declines in passengers correlated with the Canadian dollar plummeting; it's cheaper for us to stay in Canada or travel to places like Mexico or the Caribbean than to go to the US right now for tourism. Will Canadians still go to the US? Of course. Will it be what it was the last few years? At .80 cents to the dollar, I feel comfortable saying it most definitely will not be.
Tom
 
polaris
Posts: 1151
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 20):
The problem is that AC is a dying community,



You're kidding with this, right?
 
User avatar
GE9X
Posts: 271
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:13 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting Polaris (Reply 25):

You're kidding with this, right?

I don't think he is. Dying is a strong word but Atlantic City has not been doing well; how else would you describe a loss of 50% of revenues in eight years? It's a huge decline.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...-is-dying-112057.html#.VMFxE0fF_P0
 
polaris
Posts: 1151
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2000 7:03 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting GE9X (Reply 26):
I don't think he is. Dying is a strong word but Atlantic City has not been doing well

I read that as Air Canada rather than Atlantic City. Acronyms!
 
ipodguy7
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:44 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:39 pm

Quoting Polaris (Reply 25):
You're kidding with this, right?
Quoting Polaris (Reply 27):
I read that as Air Canada rather than Atlantic City. Acronyms!

My apologies for the confusion caused by my post. I didn't realize until after the edit window ran out that I used AC for two different meanings! By no means is the real AC (Air Canada) dying! I have flown them many times and enjoyed it all!
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AS/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ/JL
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:34 am

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 24):
Will Canadians still go to the US? Of course. Will it be what it was the last few years? At .80 cents to the dollar, I feel comfortable saying it most definitely will not be.

Even when the CAD was in the 60 to 70 cents U.S. range in the late 1990s/early 2000s, millions of Canadians still visited the U.S. And when the CAD is weak, Canada is a more attractive destination for American and foreign visitors.
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
millions of Canadians still visited the U.S.

I agree with this, and don't think there's much dispute on this thread. But we're already seeing a noticeable reduction in cross-border visits, and malls in northern Washington for example are already reporting a significant slide in retail business. The US will always provide an appeal to Canadian visitors, but the discretionary numbers traveling by road or air will be much lower at current exchange rates. This does not bode well for places like Atlantic City, which offers nothing that you can't get elsewhere (gambling at or close to home and nicer beaches and weather not far south).
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 843
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:20 pm

I'm surprised that the state of New Jersey couldn't find a more effective way to spend $705k on marketing Atlantic City. By my napkin calculations it works out to over $200 per passenger assuming that the flights are not full enough to generate a profit. I'm also surprised that it's AC rather than Porter operating the route. When I was a kid in YUL everybody went to Maine or New Jersey in the summer. Not anymore.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
Even when the CAD was in the 60 to 70 cents U.S. range in the late 1990s/early 2000s, millions of Canadians still visited the U.S. And when the CAD is weak, Canada is a more attractive destination for American and foreign visitors.

Good point. It's also worth pointing out that even with the current exchange rate (bank rate = $1.24 CAD per $1 USD), many goods are still cheaper in the USA. Especially gas (an average of CAD$1 less per gallon) and many grocery items. Hence why the drop off in leisure transborder traffic hasn't been noticeable as the other poster suggested. In theory, Mexico and the Caribbean travel should be cheaper... but many of the resort hotels Canadians flock to are bartered in USD, so Canadians end up paying more anyway.

That said... I really doubt this service will last.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
JAGflyer
Posts: 3565
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:31 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:55 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):

I can't speak for Quebec casinos (although I doubt they're much different) but the ones in Ontario SUCK. Because of our nanny state laws, you cannot smoke in the casino nor are there free alcoholic beverages. To be honest, most of my Ontario "casino" experience has been of the OLG Slots variety however you cannot compare AC or LAS to the gambling entertainment in Ontario. Heck, just set foot into any of the casino/slot places here and it might as well be called a retirement home. Having experienced Vegas, I wouldn't be against taking a mini-vacation to ACY for less money (if it didn't cost me less to fly to LAS on my airline than it would to fly to ACY with AC). ACY is a good in-between point for people who don't want to pay Vegas prices but are seeking a more exciting gambling experience.

[Edited 2015-01-24 17:58:19]
If you flew today, thank a Flight Dispatcher!
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sun Jan 25, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 33):
ACY is a good in-between point for people who don't want to pay Vegas prices but are seeking a more exciting gambling experience.

I think the way to do Vegas on a budget is fly during a non peak time like the Winter and stay middle of the week. Vegas lodging and travel can be very affordable that way relative to other destinations. One also doesn't need a rental car.

Flying down to ACY is fine if one wants a shorter flight, and maybe combining it with something else like beach and maybe VFR or visiting Philly and somewhere else. Hotel rooms can be expensive in the summer. I think it's unlikely Air Canada will offer low fares. e.g. Why compete against itself on PHL with a lower fare ACY flight.

I'd rather see Spirit offer an ACY-IAG flight even if just seasonal. It'd likely be at low fares and attract NJ customers heading up to Niagara or Canada, but Spirit hasn't expanded in IAG or ACY much lately.

[Edited 2015-01-24 18:28:52]
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9861
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:13 am

It'll be a disaster.
 
User avatar
compensateme
Posts: 3279
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:17 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 34):
I think the way to do Vegas on a budget is fly during a non peak time like the Winter and stay middle of the week. Vegas lodging and travel can be very affordable that way relative to other destinations. One also doesn't need a rental car.

Flying down to ACY is fine if one wants a shorter flight, and maybe combining it with something else like beach and maybe VFR or visiting Philly and somewhere else. Hotel rooms can be expensive in the summer. I think it's unlikely Air Canada will offer low fares. e.g. Why compete against itself on PHL with a lower fare ACY flight.

Actually, summer yields some of the lowest room rates for Las Vegas; you can find comparable accommodations to Atlantic City for significantly less money.

It's difficult to beat the value Las Vegas offers. Yes, if you want to enjoy high-end accommodations and their amenities (e.g. cabana rental at a trendy pool/pool party), upscale restaurants, trendy nightlife and popular shows, Las Vegas is an expensive place to visit. But Atlantic City offers none of those things. If you're willing to settle for a quality room (e.g. $10 midweek room Downtown, $30 midweek room on the Strip, etc.), decent eats (e.g. $8 Main Street Buffet) and entertaining, but tired, shows, then it's very difficult to beat Las Vegas in value.

That said, the issue in traveling to Las Vegas for many people in the Eastern Time zone is travel itself. If you just want to attend for a weekend, you essentially lose a day in travel on the return. That's the appeal of Atlantic City for some people, and probably the market it's trying to create with Air Canada.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
Cadet985
Posts: 2191
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 15):
why bother?

I live in Philly and can get to AC or even the two Philly area casinos fast. Vegas is a cheaper option for me. Games are cheaper - meaning more of my money can go towards having fun, there's TONS to see and do out there - all year, and the Strip doesn't feel like a ghetto. "why bother?" is something I often ask myself about Atlantic City.

Quoting nkops (Reply 23):
The Wildwoods and Cape May are big draws also during the summer

There's tons more to do in Wildwood. Amusement piers, arcades where you can win some really nice prizes, shops, rides, the longest beach in NJ, enough great food to destroy any diet, and the hotels are affordable.

In Atlantic City, you have what casinos are left, a mall or two, I don't even know if Steele Pier is open anymore, and a terrible beach. Wildwood is definitely the better attraction, and if you're on say a week-long or ten-day long vacation to Wildwood and HAVE to gamble, Atlantic City is only 30 miles away.

Also in comparing Atlantic City to Vegas - one gets nor'easters that you really do not want to be outside in during the winter.

I hope Air Canada can find success, but if locals like myself don't want to go to Atlantic City, what makes them so sure Canadians will?

Marc
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:32 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):
Even when the CAD was in the 60 to 70 cents U.S. range in the late 1990s/early 2000s, millions of Canadians still visited the U.S. And when the CAD is weak, Canada is a more attractive destination for American and foreign visitors.

As I said already before you posted, Canadians will travel to the US regardless of the exchange rate. The US is Canada's largest trading partner, around 90% of the Canadian population lives within a 2 hour drive of the US border, and as others have also pointed out, even with a bad exchange rate, some things are still cheaper in the US. No one is saying Canadians will stop going to the US. What myself and multiple others ARE saying is that there is already a decline in the number of Canadians vacationing in the US that is directly correlated with a bad exchange rate. For many Canadians, driving across the border to shop is getting increasingly expensive, so flying somewhere in the US is also getting increasingly expensive. I don't think Canadians will stop going to Florida and Hawaii in droves but I don't see Atlantic City having enough to pull this off long term if the exchange rate stays this low.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 30):
I agree with this, and don't think there's much dispute on this thread. But we're already seeing a noticeable reduction in cross-border visits, and malls in northern Washington for example are already reporting a significant slide in retail business. The US will always provide an appeal to Canadian visitors, but the discretionary numbers traveling by road or air will be much lower at current exchange rates. This does not bode well for places like Atlantic City, which offers nothing that you can't get elsewhere (gambling at or close to home and nicer beaches and weather not far south).

  

Quoting compensateme (Reply 32):
Good point. It's also worth pointing out that even with the current exchange rate (bank rate = $1.24 CAD per $1 USD), many goods are still cheaper in the USA. Especially gas (an average of CAD$1 less per gallon) and many grocery items. Hence why the drop off in leisure transborder traffic hasn't been noticeable as the other poster suggested. In theory, Mexico and the Caribbean travel should be cheaper... but many of the resort hotels Canadians flock to are bartered in USD, so Canadians end up paying more anyway.

Some goods are cheaper but what you say really only applies to a select group of Canadians; going to the US for gas/groceries is something mostly Canadians in border cities do. While many Canadians live within an hour of the border, a significantly smaller number actually live on the border. Canada's three largest cities are not actually on the border; Toronto and Montreal are 1+ hours drive just to the border and Vancouver is approximately 45 minutes when the Massey tunnel is not bad, 1+ hours when there is traffic in the tunnel. I say all of this from personal experience living in all three areas.

When you combine a 45min-1hour drive just to get to the border with CBP delays, it can take on average 90-120minutes just to get across, and that's if you're unwilling to spring for a NEXUS pass. I can assure you as someone living in a border area of British Columbia right now that I am the only person I know out of my entire group of friends and work colleagues in the lower mainland who actually regularly goes to the US for groceries, gas, etc., and that's because I grew up in the US and there are things I miss (like Trader Joe's!). For 99% of the people I know who live in the Vancouver area, when you factor in the time and amount of gas it takes to get down to Bellingham or even to Blaine to buy said groceries and gas, anything you'd save in the price difference is quickly lost to just the costs of getting to the US and back.

What you describe works for small Canadian towns and the rare large city directly on the border (like Windsor, ON) but for most of us who live in Canada's three largest cities, the money saved by getting groceries/gas/shopping in the US is negligible at best these days with a bad exchange rate. Furthermore, at current gas and exchange rates, in BC the average gas price is .96 cents/litre and it's about .76 cents/litre in Blaine. A savings of 20 cents per litre is not worth braving the Massey Tunnel and Vancouver/Surrey traffic.

Additionally, I can tell you from personal experience that right now it is significantly cheaper to fly from Vancouver to Mexico than Vancouver to any US sun/sand destination (such as Florida, San Diego or Hawaii). All three of the co-workers in my office who are vacationing in February are going to Mexico, and it's because the package deals are cheaper than anywhere in the US and our dollar goes further. Many hotels and restaurants/bars/clubs in Cabo and Cancun take the Canadian dollar and after having traveled to both Cancun and Hawaii in the last two years (both of which were about as far to travel in opposite directions from YVR, and both offering similar products), I can assure you that Cancun was a lot cheaper to visit.

[Edited 2015-01-25 16:36:05]
Tom
 
threepoint
Posts: 1294
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:49 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:33 pm

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 38):
there are things I miss (like Trader Joe's!)

You can get the same stuff in Kitsilano: http://www.piratejoes.ca/

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 38):
A savings of 20 cents per litre is not worth braving the Massey Tunnel and Vancouver/Surrey traffic.

While I agree with you, there are thousands who still make the trek for cheap dairy and gas, despite the currency situation. It's amazing how many people don't factor in or value their time when weighing the benefits of cross-border shopping, and don't seem to understand that you likely burn most of your fuel savings just driving to & from the US.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26542
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 33):
Because of our nanny state laws, you cannot smoke in the casino nor are there free alcoholic beverages.

You can't smoke in Atlantic City casinos either. Free booze is probably something you don't want anyway.

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 33):
however you cannot compare AC or LAS to the gambling entertainment in Ontario.

Actually, I'd say that Niagara Falls or Casino Rama compare pretty well with AC, especially if you want to do other things (like look at one of the most impressive natural wonders on earth, or enjoy Niagara-on-the-Lake).

Quoting threepoint (Reply 39):
Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 38):
there are things I miss (like Trader Joe's!)

You can get the same stuff in Kitsilano: http://www.piratejoes.ca/

The owner of that place is really cool. I had a nice chat with him about a year and a half ago. He doesn't get everything, but gets a lot of stuff.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4463
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:48 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Free booze is probably something you don't want anyway

Of course you want that! I can't even understand why you would make that statement have you ever been in a casino? Everyone is looking for the drink person unless you their when the old people are there on a tuesday morning.

Most AC casinos in general are very generous with free drinks and offer bottles of beer and mixed drinks, on the house to gamblers almost identical standards to Vegas Caesars casinos i have seen no differences on comped drinks. Everytime ive been to Casino de Montreal everyone is always complaining about the inability to offer free drinks. For the gamblers that is a buzz kill no question about it. Its the thinking your getting something for free or "recouping" some of your loses that people like. Looks is it worth traveling to AC for free drinks, of course not, but they certainly offer the real large casino feel and experience, no questions about that. The third and eight largest casino floors by square area in the US are still in AC. Bally's in AC is a larger casino floor than anything Las Vegas.

The biggest problem most casinos face in AC is that they are SO HEAVILY friday/saturday and holiday visitor heavy. That is why the charters have been so great to actually bring in weekday visitors, that is really the thing AC needs to get is weekday visitors and the casinos are certainly working on and comp more than ever on weekdays. Conventions suffer from lack of air service, but they do get some regional ones that people from the northeast mostly drive to but they tend to stay at caesars, the sheraton, Ballys all the places that are doing well. All the places that shut were ghost towns Monday-Friday Revel absolutely included. Lets all remember AC casinos poured in 2.4 BILLION in profits in 2014, the surviving casinos are raking in the money.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26542
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:47 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 41):
Of course you want that! I can't even understand why you would make that statement have you ever been in a casino?

Of course I have. I'm not saying its not something you want from a "value" standpoint, but if you are gambling, its not a great idea.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
tomcbaker
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:01 am

RE: Air Canada To Atlantic City

Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:22 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 39):
You can get the same stuff in Kitsilano: http://www.piratejoes.ca/

Yep, been there. And I'm grateful it exists, but as with anything, there are cons. For one thing, they are periodically out of certain products, and secondly, because they need to make a profit, there is a markup on prices. Don't get me wrong; as I said, I'm happy it's there. I'll gladly brave the hipsters and college students in Kits to save me having to drive to Bellingham, where the TJ's is also frequently out of stock on certain things and it's almost impossible to find a parking spot. With that being said, neither PJ's or TJ's Bellingham can hold a candle to the larger, better stocked TJ's in several Seattle locations and I often do make the extra effort to go down and get everything I like in one trip. CBSA is amazingly indifferent about the multiple ice chests in the back of my car each trip, which is great compared to the interrogation I get going in the other direction.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 39):
While I agree with you, there are thousands who still make the trek for cheap dairy and gas, despite the currency situation. It's amazing how many people don't factor in or value their time when weighing the benefits of cross-border shopping, and don't seem to understand that you likely burn most of your fuel savings just driving to & from the US.

It's true, there will always be people who make the trek. My point was that in most large Canadian cities, it makes no sense and is rarely done. People in Winnipeg don't drive 2 hours south to get to the closest ND border crossing. People in Calgary are 3 hours north of the closest crossing in Montana, people in Montreal are 90 minutes north of the VT border and people in Toronto definitely aren't going to brave 2+ hours of GTA traffic to get to a NY crossing for gas/food. There are plenty of small towns in Canada near/on the border where this works nicely, but in the majority (>50%) of large cities in Canada, it's a 2+ hour drive just to get to a crossing.

The CBC recently put up an interesting article about cross-border visits 'plummeting' between BC-WA too. The URL is down right now but the Sun also had something (http://www.vancouversun.com/business/Drop+Canadian+dollar+linked+fewer+cross+border+shoppers/10752596/story.html). So I am not changing what I said earlier; with a declining loonie/CAD and casinos much closer to home, and with this route being largely dependent on vacationers rather than business traffic, I don't see there being enough of a market on this route to sustain it long term. The above URL is proof that Canadians ARE visiting the US less; even if it's just an 8% decline in the last year, AC should have tried this route back in 2011-2012 when the USD/CAD were at parity, not right now.
Tom

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos