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New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:05 am

Welcome to number 152 of the New Zealand Aviation Threads.

Previous thread can be found here New Zealand Aviation Thread 151 (by American 767 Jan 4 2015 in Civil Aviation)#menu206
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:16 am

From the previous thread

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 178):
Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 176):So it looks like Soundsair plans to give Westport a go replacing the Air New Zealand/Eagle Air service once it stopsAnd they're getting PC-12s.

Apparently Sounds Air had a PC12 on display at Wings Over Wairarapa. I've heard Sounds Air have expressed interest at a MRO-WLG/BHE/NSN service

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 196):

WIAL hinted in a stuff.co.nz article about further new routes in the works, including past Australia. Will be excellent news if true. Will be tempting to book flights.

Quoting mariner (Reply 201):
Quoting zkncj (Reply 199):Looks like taking an flight on the CV580 just got easier, or maybe on there DC3

I didn't realise they have a Convair, I haven't flown on one for - well, a very long time.

The CV580s fly to WLG and CHC several times per week.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 212):
Quoting xiaotung (Reply 196):but would WLG runway be a problem for B787?
Definitely not for flights to SYD.. Think about the 763s which used to fly into/out of WLG. Even the 747SP.

WLG can handle a widebody of any East Coast Australian service.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 1):
Apparently Sounds Air had a PC12 on display at Wings Over Wairarapa. I've heard Sounds Air have expressed interest at a MRO-WLG/BHE/NSN service

There was definitely a PC12 a WOW but ZK-TFL has nothing to do with Sounds Air. It has a much more colourful pedigree. As for rumours about MRO, well that's hardly a secret. They were interested when Air New Zealand withdrew and no doubt after a sweetener from the local council but the council was more interested in an Auckland service and we all know where that has gone.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 1):
The CV580s fly to WLG and CHC several times per week.

I assume you mean to WLG and CHC from the Chathams, where I don't want to go. AKL-WHK is the flight that interest me.

There's a map on the website.

http://www.airchathams.co.nz/schedule.html

The next time I go to the South Island I'll check out Sounds Air, too, because that's starting to get interesting to me and more so when they add Westport.

http://www.soundsair.com/routes

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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 1):
The CV580s fly to WLG and CHC several times per week.

That's if you want to head to Chatham Island, wouldn't say its on my places to visit.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:56 am

I want to go fishing in the Chathams, it's the price of the airfares that puts me off.
come visit the south pacific
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:46 pm

On Xiamen and the 788 out of WLG. The takeoff length chart shows ~ 190t TOW out of WLG . TOW at Max volume limited payload for the 788 for a 3hr 45min sector is ~ 178t so they could load it right up if they needed to.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:22 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 6):
On Xiamen and the 788 out of WLG. The takeoff length chart shows ~ 190t TOW out of WLG . TOW at Max volume limited payload for the 788 for a 3hr 45min sector is ~ 178t so they could load it right up if they needed to.

That is the field length limited TOM, it doesn't take into account obstacle clearance which is likely to be more restrictive off RWY 34 at WLG.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:09 am

Quoting CHCalfonzo (Reply 7):
That is the field length limited TOM, it doesn't take into account obstacle clearance which is likely to be more restrictive off RWY 34 at WLG

There was talk of RNP at WLG to help this problem.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 8):
Quoting CHCalfonzo (Reply 7):That is the field length limited TOM, it doesn't take into account obstacle clearance which is likely to be more restrictive off RWY 34 at WLG
There was talk of RNP at WLG to help this problem.

WIAL have talked about wide bodies flying up the Hutt Valley to avoid the Newlands hill
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:01 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 9):
WIAL have talked about wide bodies flying up the Hutt Valley to avoid the Newlands hill

I expect it would only be in an engine out emergency that newlands ridge would become an issue although those widebodies have pretty good single engine performance anyway. Air NZ have an emergency A320 RNP procedure when there is an engine out which takes them up the Hutt Valley and then over Haywards - I suspect that a similar procredure for a widebody could be developed pretty easily.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:23 am

I just procured this little piece of NZ aviation history.



The control wheel of the DC-8 ZK-NZE. Got it from a collector in the US. Totally rapt!  
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:46 am

Quoting A7ALA (Reply 10):

Would be interesting to see an A320 with engine out fly over the Haywards Hill as that area is hilly. Would be an interesting sight for me also as I live near the Haywards. Would have thought sending it over the harbour/harbour entrance would have been safer if the engine cuts out shortly after take off. I've seen Qantas B763s flying up the Valley. I would expect the 787 to use the Valley if near max take off weight
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:43 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 11):

That rego.... Are you sure it didn't come from a brand new 787?  
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:08 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 12):

It's not the height of the obstacle as such, but the distance and height i.e. gradient.

The issue for the RWY 34 departure at WLG is the Newlands Ridge. ANZ developed (in conjunction with Airways NZ), their own RNP AR departure. This allows the a/c to depart off RWY 34 on one engine, climb towards the Newlands Ridge before sweeping right toward the Hutton Valley. The track then crosses the Western edge of the valley towards the West coast further up the valley towards Haywards.

The key point here is that additional distance and narrowness of the track, less than 1nm edge to edge, provides defined obstacles at defined distances for a very accurate takeoff weight calculation. This can be up to 2500kgs in additional weight.

Clever use of very smart technology!
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting Aotearoa (Reply 14):
The key point here is that additional distance and narrowness of the track, less than 1nm edge to edge, provides defined obstacles at defined distances for a very accurate takeoff weight calculation. This can be up to 2500kgs in additional weight.

to fly a 1nm track must mean using GPS waypoints. Presumably this track is stored in the auto pilot memory system. The Boeing tables suggest that a 789 has ~ a 203t MTOW out of WLG on a standard day in still air. Can you estimate what effect the Newland's ridge has at that weight for a non-NZ 789?
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Sun Jan 25, 2015 6:29 am

Does anyone know if NZ is planning on doing a special ANZAC 100 years livery?
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:27 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 13):
that rego.... Are you sure it didn't come from a brand new 787?

Haha! It probably weighs more than the entire cockpit of it's 787 namesake!

Certainly a solidly built piece of kit - they made them to last in those days. All the switches on the thing - which must have been pushed a million times - still feel like they're brand new.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:43 am

Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but last month LAN officially announced its plans for the SCL-AKL-SYD route this year which includes three stages:

-In April LAN will operate all flights on the SCL-AKL-SYD route utilizing the 787-8. The last scheduled A-340-313X flight from AKL will depart on April 17th. The first 787-8 flight will depart SCL on April 16 and arrive into AKL on April 18.

-During Q4 LAN will deploy the 787-9 on the SCL-AKL-SYD route daily.

-During Q4 LAN will increase frequency on the SCL-AKL-SYD to 10x weekly utilizing the 787-9.

Link in Spanish:
LAN Airlines anuncia plan de crecimiento y se consolida como el mayor operador entre Oceanía y Sudamérica

For those interested, LAN's A340 crews made a video commemorating the A340 and its service on the SCL-AKL-SYD route:
http://youtu.be/grNCIkf6v-E
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:20 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
-During Q4 LAN will increase frequency on the SCL-AKL-SYD to 10x weekly utilizing the 787-9.

Thanks, has the schedule for the new 3x weekly flight been announced?
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:27 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
During Q4 LAN will increase frequency on the SCL-AKL-SYD to 10x weekly utilizing the 787-9.

Awesome! Any idea of the expected timing of the new 3x weekly service?
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:35 am

Quoting byronicle6 (Reply 19):
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 20):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
During Q4 LAN will increase frequency on the SCL-AKL-SYD to 10x weekly utilizing the 787-9.

Awesome! Any idea of the expected timing of the new 3x weekly service?

Not as yet. I'm eagerly waiting for the schedule for LA803/LA802 to be released as well.   AKL will certainly see some LAN a/c diversity this year with the A343, 787-8 and 787-9.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:12 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 15):

It sure does SV! The track is stored in the navigation database as an engine out standard instrument departure (EOSID). When the flight management system senses an engine failure, the EOSID is immediately extracted from the nav database and presented to the crew to either enable or disable.... very clever stuff.

A good question on the Newlands ridge outcome on TOW. I'll ponder this one and see what I can come up with.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:07 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
I assume you mean to WLG and CHC from the Chathams, where I don't want to go. AKL-WHK is the flight that interest me.

Hi Mariner

they do fly AKL-NPE-Chathams. They don't sell the AKL-NPE leg on their website, because they don't want to "waste" potential AKL-Chathams capacity on the short leg. However, if you call or email them, they put you on the flight, and confirm a few days in advance. They were really nice, and even put in my reservation "Convair enthusiast". That resulted in the flight attendant (who was also the boarding/gate agent) asking me if I want to fly on the jump seat. I didn't even ask, but she approached me - a great experience! (http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000407216.html). That was in 2009 though, but I think they still do that, and are still super freienldy and welcoming to enthusiasts. By the way, they charged me $150 for the one way at that time.

If you are really keen, just call them and see what they can do for you!

A real shame that they pulled out of Tonga. I was lucky to get a CV580 ride there as well, along with a Beech Queen Air and an Islander flight. Sadly, I missed out on the DC3 - while I have flown on the DC3, it wasn't a scheduled trip...

Cheers
micha
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:18 am

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 23):
Hi Mariner

they do fly AKL-NPE-Chathams. They don't sell the AKL-NPE leg on their website, because they don't want to "waste" potential AKL-Chathams capacity on the short leg. However, if you call or email them, they put you on the flight, and confirm a few days in advance. They were really nice, and even put in my reservation "Convair enthusiast". That resulted in the flight attendant (who was also the boarding/gate agent) asking me if I want to fly on the jump seat. I didn't even ask, but she approached me - a great experience! (http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000407216.html). That was in 2009 though, but I think they still do that, and are still super freienldy and welcoming to enthusiasts. By the way, they charged me $150 for the one way at that time.

If you are really keen, just call them and see what they can do for you!

A real shame that they pulled out of Tonga. I was lucky to get a CV580 ride there as well, along with a Beech Queen Air and an Islander flight. Sadly, I missed out on the DC3 - while I have flown on the DC3, it wasn't a scheduled trip...

Cheers
micha

I believe they discontinued the AKL-NPE-CHT in 2013. The Thursday flight now operates AKL-CHT direct.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:23 am

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 23):

To add to this - here's a trip report I did on the CV-580 back in 2010.. Gosh, was it that long ago....

A Touch Of Nostalgia - Jumpseating The CV580 (by NZ107 Aug 6 2010 in Trip Reports)

And it was thanks to ZKEOJ that I booked this.

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 23):
Sadly, I missed out on the DC3 - while I have flown on the DC3, it wasn't a scheduled trip...

It's just sitting around at AKL... I wish it was doing something! Imagine if that put that on AKL-WHK. I'd be in for a daytrip for sure.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
During Q4 LAN will increase frequency on the SCL-AKL-SYD to 10x weekly utilizing the 787-9.

Will LAN offer 3 extra SYD flights per week via AKL ? That would be a bit odd.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 26):


Quoting SCL767 (Reply 18):
During Q4 LAN will increase frequency on the SCL-AKL-SYD to 10x weekly utilizing the 787-9.

Will LAN offer 3 extra SYD flights per week via AKL ? That would be a bit odd.

Did you read the press release, news articles or any of the Spanish speaking sites that reiterated that the flights will operate directly to SYD via AKL? BTW, sorry that NZ decided not to fly to LIM and instead chose to fly to EZE. I know you were looking forward to NZ at LIM; however I don't think LIM will be connected to Oceania during this decade.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 27):
I know you were looking forward to NZ at LIM; however I don't think LIM will be connected to Oceania during this decade.

I thought that LAN had previously indicated they were considering LIM-AKL flights to connect AKL ( and Australia) to their LIM hub. I could be wrong ( one of the problems with getting older is that my memory is very crowded, LOL) but didn't you mention that a year or so back?

I have to admit that when they said they were going to increase to 10 weekly flights to AKL I thought this would have been a great opportunity for them to open a second gateway at LIM better suited to provide connections to destinations in Peru/Ecuador/Colombia etc, while continuing to service the Southern Cone and Brazil via SCL.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:59 am

http://mrcaviation.blogspot.co.nz/2015/01/where-are-they-now.html

So it also came to my attention while I was compiling registrations for someone that I saw another ex-NZ 744 at the boneyards in USA. The other was ZK-NBV, which is now painted in Saudia colours and sporting 2 registrations - a US registration which it was transferred to following its arrival in USA and also a Spanish rego for the charter airline it was supposed to go to. So I expect it to have another registration added to the plane when it gets delivered to SV for (what I imagine will be) hajj flights.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 28):
I thought that LAN had previously indicated they were considering LIM-AKL flights to connect AKL ( and Australia) to their LIM hub. I could be wrong ( one of the problems with getting older is that my memory is very crowded, LOL) but didn't you mention that a year or so back?

I have to admit that when they said they were going to increase to 10 weekly flights to AKL I thought this would have been a great opportunity for them to open a second gateway at LIM better suited to provide connections to destinations in Peru/Ecuador/Colombia etc, while continuing to service the Southern Cone and Brazil via SCL.

Exactly. SCL767 DID mention the possibility of LAN linking the LIM hub with AKL/Australia. Guess he was just making that up...
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 28):
I thought that LAN had previously indicated they were considering LIM-AKL flights to connect AKL ( and Australia) to their LIM hub.

That was a few years ago. LIM was lobbying for a flight to Oceania and LAN Perú said they were interested and would consider it. However since then many things have changed.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 28):
I have to admit that when they said they were going to increase to 10 weekly flights to AKL I thought this would have been a great opportunity for them to open a second gateway at LIM better suited to provide connections to destinations in Peru/Ecuador/Colombia etc, while continuing to service the Southern Cone and Brazil via SCL.

The overwhelming majority of passengers traveling between SYD/AKL and South America are headed to Chile, Argentina and Brazil, (not Colombia, Ecuador or Perú). SCL is perfectly situated to offer connections to these destinations. TAM will add new flights to increase connectivity via SCL and for the backpackers headed to Perú LAN now offers up to 10 daily flights between SCL and LIM.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting ZKEOJ (Reply 23):
That was in 2009 though, but I think they still do that, and are still super freienldy and welcoming to enthusiasts. By the way, they charged me $150 for the one way at that time.

If you are really keen, just call them and see what they can do for you!

Thanks for all that info. I'm keen on the Whakatane flight because of the Convair (or the DC3) and because I love the East Cape.

I'm not so keen on the Chathams. I went there, many, many years ago and while it was interesting I don't have any great urge to go back.

I have some free time coming up later in the year - beach-combing to refuel the brain - and I'm just starting to think of some oddball things to do - North West Oz is on the list but I could to talk myself into some doodling around NZ, and racking up a couple of the oddball airlines - Sounds Air, say, or Air Chathams. I wish they still flew to Tonga, too.

But cheers again for the info.

mariner
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SCL767
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:25 am

Quoting RAGAZZO777 (Reply 30):
Exactly. SCL767 DID mention the possibility of LAN linking the LIM hub with AKL/Australia. Guess he was just making that up...

Really? Let's be realistic. LIM wants whatever SCL has and has approached LAN and foreign carriers to open routes that are quite frankly not sustainable. LIM is a low-yielding destination compared to SCL, BUE, GRU/GIG, etc. for pax originating in AKL/SYD. BTW does Perú even have a New Zealand consulate? Didn't think so...
 
kiwiandrew

RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 31):
That was a few years ago. LIM was lobbying for a flight to Oceania and LAN Perú said they were interested and would consider it. However since then many things have changed.

Thanks for that .. glad to know I'm not suffering from dementia ... yet .
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 34):
Thanks for that .. glad to know I'm not suffering from dementia ... yet .

No worries. IIRC the lobbying for LAN to link LIM with Oceania started early 2011 and I do remember the articles published since it featured JetStar a/c on the cover, (don't ask me why)? LAN even flew LIM-IPC twice weekly so that LIM would be "linked to Oceania" and after one year LAN slashed that route since it only catered to low-yielding pax and transferred the frequencies right back to SCL.

LAN's increase in frequency and capacity on the SCL-AKL-SYD route seems to be "controversial yet interesting" to many on the forum and discussed on multiple threads. Does anyone think that it deserves its own thread?

[Edited 2015-01-25 19:26:26]
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:53 am

I went to the Air NZ exhibition at Te Papa yesterday. It was OK, but I was expecting a little more. Bought the commemorative book, and only leafed through it but several quite glaring historical errors jumped out at me. I guess some of the old-timers who could have caught these errors have moved on from the carrier . . . Still, though, I don't think that's an excuse. Just left me rather disappointed in the whole show.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:34 am

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 29):
So it also came to my attention while I was compiling registrations for someone that I saw another ex-NZ 744 at the boneyards in USA. The other was ZK-NBV, which is now painted in Saudia colours and sporting 2 registrations - a US registration which it was transferred to following its arrival in USA and also a Spanish rego for the charter airline it was supposed to go to. So I expect it to have another registration added to the plane when it gets delivered to SV for (what I imagine will be) hajj flights.

It's being delivered to Wamos Air, who will be operating it for the Hajj flights (as with their other B744s) on behalf of SV. So I'd expect it to remain on the Spanish register.
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:48 pm

Are we likely to see NZ follow others i.e QF,JQ - and remove the "fuel Surcharge"? as oil has dropped a lot in the last few months- they haven't said anything yet..
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 38):
Are we likely to see NZ follow others i.e QF,JQ - and remove the "fuel Surcharge"? as oil has dropped a lot in the last few months- they haven't said anything yet..

I believe a similar question was asked somewhere else and the answer was that for FY2015 77% was hedged for the first half and 50% for the second half . While these hedges are in place it is unlikely that fuel surcharges will be adjusted downwards before mid- 2015.
 
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:25 pm

In the last few weeks I've received a number of complaints at work aimed at the overall product and service Air NZ offers. This is a bit perplexing as my employer has as tenuous link (at best) with Air NZ.

This is making me start to wonder if the non-industry layperson - for want of a better term - is discovering things aren't as they'd expect and how much longer NZ can keep cutting before it starts to get noted more and more outside of the enthusiast and frequent flier channels.
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Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 40):
This is making me start to wonder if the non-industry layperson - for want of a better term - is discovering things aren't as they'd expect and how much longer NZ can keep cutting before it starts to get noted more and more outside of the enthusiast and frequent flier channels.

These things always come home to roost. Mess with a legacy airline's product with never ending bite-sized chunks, over-rely on the blind loyalty (and stupidity) of travellers, and eventually down the track even casual passengers discover better options elsewhere. And because there is usually a bit of a lag time between the two processes, airline executives never seem to make the connection - instead blaming external influences beyond their control for the downturn. In my time I've seen this happen with Pan Am, QF, and BA........ there are doubtless many other examples.

And it will happen with NZ too. Savvy travelers will increasingly be paying for good value travel on the A380s of SIA and EK while NZ will be running at a loss, having to virtually give away seats on their 10 abreast 777s playing jokesy safety videos. No one within the airline will associate this, if and when it happens, to the progressive product downgrades which started 15 years before.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:55 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 40):

it's started a while ago. I know quite a few friends and family who have already stopped using NZ where they can due to the cuts etc made over the past few years. NZ is now seen by many of them as the more expensive option with the least value.
it's sad as I personally want NZ to do well
 
DavidByrne
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:39 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 42):
I know quite a few friends and family who have already stopped using NZ where they can due to the cuts etc made over the past few years. NZ is now seen by many of them as the more expensive option with the least value.
it's sad as I personally want NZ to do well

This is precisely the point - Air NZ is doing well, based on the strategy that they are following, which to put it crudely is to try to charge more and provide less. From a business point of view, that's eminently sensible - if it works, which it appears that it is. If it leads to lower profits and declining patronage, I've no doubt that the "nimble" airline will adjust its strategy and do something else.

What we see in this discussion is a collision of two incompatible strategies: (1) the idea that NZ is a company whose responsibilities are to its shareholders to deliver a solid result, and (2) the idea that many on A-net have is that NZ inherently should behave in a particular way and chase a particular market segment, for emotional reasons rather than for business reasons.

As others have suggested rather more eloquently in the past - if people don't like NZ's offering, don't complain, take another carrier. Don't expect that the carrier should adjust its strategy to meet your particular view of what its market niche ought to be.
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SelandiaBaru
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:56 pm

Quoting gasman (Reply 41):
And it will happen with NZ too

And eventually SQ as it has started with them, a bit later than NZ mind you. I've always paid a premium to fly SQ almost exclusively long-haul and some short and mid haul for the last 7 years. That premium seems to be increasing without an increase in premium feeling or at least maintenance of what was good.

Don't get me wrong SQ are still great but the over-reaching cost cutting is becoming all too apparent. The inconsistency of the product is starting to get far worse than NZ. I generally plan routes to take the A380 and avoid the 772/77R as much as possible due to the old 90's product with terrible Rockwell Collins IFE. Even on the refurbished frames they've kept that IFE and while J and F at least get all new seats those awful old screens go back in.

I actually think SQ were right to refrain from having PE but they have started to let themselves go to the point where PE is the only innovation they feel they can make. It may have worked well for NZ but it's quite a different kettle of fish.
 
Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:05 am

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 43):

I agree entirely with your post.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 43):
What we see in this discussion is a collision of two incompatible strategies: (1) the idea that NZ is a company whose responsibilities are to its shareholders to deliver a solid result, and (2) the idea that many on A-net have is that NZ inherently should behave in a particular way and chase a particular market segment, for emotional reasons rather than for business reasons.

I'm unashamedly in group (2). This is because I still see NZ, rightly or wrongly, as having some responsibilities as a nationally owned "flag carrier" over and above those to their shareholders. I also don't see the two strategies you define as being necessarily incompatible - it is possible to provide value and quality while still delivering a solid result to shareholders. Also, much of my reason for believing NZ should provide a particular product relates more to my comfort in Y class than emotion per se.

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 43):
If it leads to lower profits and declining patronage, I've no doubt that the "nimble" airline will adjust its strategy and do something else.

Once you've lost a customer's loyalty it is very very hard to win it back.

[Edited 2015-01-27 16:07:33]
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:18 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 45):
This is because I still see NZ, rightly or wrongly, as having some responsibilities as a nationally owned "flag carrier" over and above those to their shareholders.

Many of the good people of Kaitaia, Westport and Whakatane share your view as to those responsibilities and said so when they were dropped from the route map.

But where do you draw the line?

Should the airline continue to fly unprofitable routes because they are the perceived national carrier, or should they behave responsibly as a publicly traded corporation into which a lot of Kiwis have invested their money in the expectation of a return?

I don't know where that line is, and - I think - it is a considerable tightrope.

mariner
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Gasman
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:30 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
Should the airline continue to fly unprofitable routes because they are the perceived national carrier

The short answer is "no"..... the longer answer depends on any "big picture" factors, including just how unprofitable the route is and whether it's likely to remain so.

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
should they behave responsibly as a publicly traded corporation into which a lot of Kiwis have invested their money in the expectation of a return?

Absolutely they should. But part of that 'responsibility' includes providing a value for money, yet professional product. I would argue that NZ's product is most defintely not the former and arguably not the latter either. Wheras my recent experinces on QF ticked both boxes in this regard.

Quoting mariner (Reply 46):
I don't know where that line is, and - I think - it is a considerable tightrope

Agreed.
 
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mariner
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 47):
Absolutely they should. But part of that 'responsibility' includes providing a value for money, yet professional product. I would argue that NZ's product is most defintely not the former and arguably not the latter either. Wheras my recent experinces on QF ticked both boxes in this regard.

As you've said many times. But you know, I'm glad Air NZ isn't in the same financial position as Qantas these last few years.

And much as I defend the notorious grounding of Qantas, I'm glad it didn't have to happen with Air NZ.

I'm glad Air NZ isn't in the same financial position that Virgin Australia has been in ever since it was taken up-market. Personally, I preferred the old, cheerful, Virgin Blue, but each to their own, always.

mariner

[Edited 2015-01-27 16:42:16]
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aerorobnz
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RE: New Zealand Aviation Thread 152

Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:09 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 40):
In the last few weeks I've received a number of complaints at work aimed at the overall product and service Air NZ offers.

It is indicative of an airline cutting costs by machete not by dremmel. The only place I don't notice the cuts now is on domestic. All other aspects I notice. I notice it particularly on S2S flights. I used to think it was worth paying for Works product now I think there is no value in doing so.. If I pay extra money (60-70) for a meal I expect something to show for it, not the waste of time pie or weak tikka you get, not the half-assed new release movie list that is so tired you end up watching the freebie seat only sitcoms anyway. No value for money = disappointment.

Not to mention they are making it so difficult for mileage accruel on any airline except NZ. Sure it builds up the NZ Elite base to an extent, but it also drives other *Elite travellers back to the likes of SQ/TG/BR/UA if it means that the average fare (at higher than average prices) has at least 50 or 75% accruel instead of 0%. Again a value assessment. Why pay the added expense when you can get miles on your preferred program AND pay less.

I support NZ as much as I can afford, but at the end of the day I will not pay a huge premium on Intl for the privilege of being on their Y class product.
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