LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 198):
Did anyone consider the possibility that the left side and the right side sticker are in different languages?

You are therefore also claiming that the story about the recorders recovered from the SSJ is false.

So now we have false recoveries of recorders from two airliner crashes?

The recorders shown as being from the SSJ in the media reports from that crash, can't actually be the recorders from the SSJ if they are from AK-PXC, right?

These stories have to be false then, correct? The SSJ parts must also be fakes.

http://nasional.news.viva.co.id/news...yelidikan-sukhoi-nahas-versi-rusia

http://nasional.news.viva.co.id/news...fdr-sukhoi-nahas-buatan-tahun-2009

http://nasional.news.viva.co.id/news...dr-sukhoi-nahas-akhirnya-ditemukan

[Edited 2015-01-29 06:43:38]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 198):
Did anyone consider the possibility that the left side and the right side sticker are in different languages? The "wet floor -caution" sign at the airside Mickey D's is in two languages, Oh but never anything else, that would be counter-productive.   

Take a look at this article...

http://www.solopos.com/2012/06/20/mu...et-100-195275?mobile_switch=mobile

Dated 20 June 2012.

Look familiar? That's why no one is taking you seriously. You can't even admit you're wrong on the simplest tidbits.

Or is this all part of the conspiracy? Fake backdated articles? Or are they using the same black box in all the investigations!? The possibilities!!

Seriously, do a google image search on the picture of the black box next time. Or just listen to the 20 people saying it's from a completely different crash. Or just ignore us and pretend they're using different black boxes because *conspiracy* !
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:49 pm

 
SoJo
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 198):
By your logic ... why wasn't the recorder sticker in Bahasa?

Did anyone consider the possibility that the left side and the right side sticker are in different languages? The "wet floor -caution" sign at the airside Mickey D's is in two languages, Oh but never anything else, that would be counter-productive.

What has Mickey D's have to do with this? Look at the posts and please learn from what people are telling you. Just chill out and take in the evidence. Please
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:24 pm

Is there any way to ignore a particular user in the a.net forums electronically?

I'm offended and upset at the misinformation being spread by one particular user here and I'd like a way to have their posts completely blocked, since there doesn't appear to be any moderation going on as far as I can see... (I guess I'll know if my post gets removed...)

Back on topic, thanks to all the people with experience and expertise in their respective fields for providing fact and evidence rather than tin hat conspiracy theories.

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
joejosh999
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:13 pm

Not sure about Ignore, but there is Suggest Deletion, which could be useful with md80fanataic's endless OT posts re 191. Those should be on a different thread.
 
cat3appr50
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:13 pm

Quoting the WSJ article, “Indonesian authorities are delving into what factors may have surprised or CONFUSED (my caps) the first officer, who was much less experienced than the captain, according to two safety experts familiar with the probe...Investigators, these people said, seek to determine what caused the nose of the Airbus A320 to point upward at an unusually steep angle, while the plane’s computerized stall-protection systems either malfunctioned or were disengaged...Repeated automated stall warnings were captured on the cockpit-voice recorder as the co-pilot and captain struggled unsuccessfully to regain control of the jet, investigators have said…Based on data previously released by Indonesian authorities, the jetliner climbed more than 5,000 feet in less than 30 seconds—several times faster than any jetliner is supposed to ascend. It changed directions twice during that period, before it started to descend quickly. The jet changed its heading at least twice more and went into a spiral... The Airbus A320 lost forward airspeed during its rapid climb, stalled and then crashed into the water below…The flight-data recorder, according to the two people familiar with the probe, indicates the first officer’s control stick pulled the plane’s nose up. But it isn’t clear when those commands occurred in the sequence of events, or why they were initiated.”

Once again, going back to the DFDR data and BEA simulations from the Air France 447 (Airbus A330) incident formal report:

Subsequent to pitot tube icing in rough/t’storm weather the computed airspeed was lost and A/P and A/T disconnected, F/D bars were lost, flight law changed to Alternate Law, +V/S, Pitch (manually-eventually to over 10+ deg. nose up), and FPA started increasing rapidly. The pilot in the R seat (co-pilot, flying) seemed to be following the Flight Director bars (as they appear/reappear intermittently and in a significant period of time with pitch up of 10 deg. or more) as noted on the R side stick inputs. This eventually resulted in a stall, and stall alarm initiating for a short period and then remaining on continuously for the period from 02 10 50Z (AOA starts increasing) to 02 11 45Z, (AOA at around 40+ deg.) and with forward speed decreasing and altitude decreasing rapidly. The right seat pilot (flying), even though with AOA increasing and in a (worsening) stall and with the stall alarm blaring continues to generally follow the Flight Director bars (when available and even with high pitch up commanded) as noted on the L PFD and the right side stick inputs. With reference to the BEA AF 447 incident simulation, even when a F/D commanded/displayed high pitch up was indicated, with (negative) vertical speed increasing, altitude decreasing rapidly, AOA increasing rapidly, forward speed decreasing rapidly, and a worsening stall, the right side side stick inputs generally attempted to follow the (commanded pitch up) F/D bars, even with commanded high pitch up of around 10 (or more) degrees.

Although already in a stall the AF 447 Flight Director bars (as available) continued to command a nose up pitch on the PFD, and which it appears the right seat pilot (flying) was generally following via right side stick inputs, despite the worsening stall and stall alarm still blaring? And by the time the Captain returned to the cockpit and eventually sorted out/figured out what was going on, and to command manual nose down pitch to break the stall (which all pilots are rigidly trained to do even in original training in Cessna 152’s or 172’s), it was too late.

IMO there may be a continuing issue with proper manual flight control (and lack of adequate simulator training regarding same) subsequent to A/P and A/T disconnect and a mode change to lower level flight control laws and protections, sorting out quickly via CRM what the instrumentation, alarms, and flight characteristics are indicating (or not indicating), and (manually) responding quickly and properly.

Aside that the “public” hasn’t seen any specific DFDR and CVR Flight 8501 preliminary data yet, IMO preliminary information as noted in the WSJ article may indicate potential similarities to the AF 447 incident (including weather related impact to some degree) regarding cockpit "confusion" in an evolution of manual flight control challenges/difficulties and CRM in a “saturated” emergency cockpit situation (and upon a loss of normal “automation”).
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:24 pm

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 20):
Since the CVR and the DFDR are mounted to a singular framework, which is TIG welded to the fuselage stringers beyond the aft bulkhead, it seems rather unusual to find the boxes 1/2 mile apart, knowing these pre-crash conditions.

I don't see any TIG welds,only rivets. Welding would surprise me.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
liquidair
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting cat3appr50 (Reply 206):

In all fairness though, the captain was right next to him on this flight- and I refuse to believe that someone of that experience and pedigree (no offence to the other pilot, but being ex air force and accumulating so many more flying hours) would just sit back idly and allow things to precipitate the same way AF 447 did.

There must be more to this.
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
hivue
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting liquidair (Reply 208):
the captain was right next to him on this flight- and I refuse to believe that someone of that experience and pedigree (no offence to the other pilot, but being ex air force and accumulating so many more flying hours) would just sit back idly and allow things to precipitate the same way AF 447 did.

Mandala499 quoted here:
http://news.yahoo.com/co-pilot-contr...rashed-investigator-081344469.html
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
flood
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:47 pm

Per Bloomberg:

"The pilots of AirAsia Bhd. Flight 8501 cut power to a critical computer system that normally prevents planes from going out of control shortly before it plunged into the Java Sea, two people with knowledge of the investigation said.

The action appears to have helped trigger the events of Dec. 28, when the Airbus Group NV A320 plane climbed so abruptly that it lost lift and it began falling with warnings blaring in the cockpit, the people said. All 162 aboard were killed.

The pilots had been attempting to deal with alerts about the flight augmentation computers, which control the A320’s rudder and also automatically prevent it from going too slow. After the initial attempts to address the alerts, the flight crew cut power to the entire system, which is comprised of two separate computers that serve as backups to each other, the people said.

While the information helps show how a normally functioning A320’s flight-protection system could have been bypassed, it doesn’t explain why the pilots pulled the plane into a steep climb, the people said. Even with the computers shut off, the pilots should have been able to fly the plane manually, they said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...minary-report-on-airasia-jet-probe
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting joejosh999 (Reply 205):
Not sure about Ignore, but there is Suggest Deletion, which could be useful with md80fanataic's endless OT posts re 191. Those should be on a different thread.

If enough people use the suggest deletion feature, maybe something could be done about the OT posts.
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
therealswede
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:27 pm

An idea, based on the latest info from Bloomberg, if it's accurate.
Maybe it's the case that troubleshooting the rudder / rudder control coincided with escaping bad weather by the cleared left turn + climb.
And then perhaps the less experienced pilot flying climbed too quickly not being able to rely on the envelope protection?
I still think at that altitude the stall should be recoverable but if not realizing the situation quick enough the possibility of recovery quickly decreases.
 
cyloncat
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:04 pm

Those news articles are more confusing than clarifying. Details appear to be cherry-picked and presented out-of-order, with no concern about separating causes from pilot responses.

Maybe one of these days there will be a useful leak.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:04 pm

So they were preoccupied with alerts about FAC1 and/or FAC2, and at some point they pulled the breakers for them and would then have been flying manually?
 
liquidair
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 209):

Thank you for the link!

Yes, that's what I'm trying to get across- I'm pretty sure that with that amount of experience, and especially following AF447, the captain would have been very very aware of what was going on.

Come to think of it, with the co-pilot being French- I'm pretty sure it crossed his mind too.

So because of this, I just think there's much more to it than just assuming it's a repeat of that incident.
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:13 pm

It sounds a bit like they tried to reset them, but that didn't work and so they pulled the breakers?
 
hivue
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting cyloncat (Reply 213):
Those news articles are more confusing than clarifying. Details appear to be cherry-picked and presented out-of-order, with no concern about separating causes from pilot responses.

That's why we come to anet.  
Quoting cyloncat (Reply 213):
Maybe one of these days there will be a useful leak.

I've found the most recent ones to be very useful in assembling a possible (emphasis on "possible") general picture. Of course, if you're seriously into instant gratification I can see there would be a problem.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:35 pm

It could simply be that the alerts preoccupied them and they forgot to fly the plane for long enough to lose control.
 
hivue
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 218):
It could simply be that the alerts preoccupied them and they forgot to fly the plane for long enough to lose control.

It's definitely happened before.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
cyloncat
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 217):
I've found the most recent ones to be very useful in assembling a possible (emphasis on "possible") general picture. Of course, if you're seriously into instant gratification I can see there would be a problem.

I'm generally interested in facts and in analysis. I'm interested in the process and in finding first causes. So far, this investigation has been marginally less frustrating than MH370.
 
s5daw
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:40 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 216):

It sounds a bit like they tried to reset them, but that didn't work and so they pulled the breakers?

Or they were fighting the computer and wanted to get into direct law? If that is the case, it could have severe implications for the whole Airbus fleet.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:49 pm

Over there in Investigator: AirAsia Plane Wobbled, Climbed And T (by Airspeed772 Jan 29 2015 in Civil Aviation)

we have that bit of news:

Quoting Airspeed772 (Reply 1):
Jakarta, Indonesia (CNN)Before AirAsia Flight 8501 crashed, the co-pilot was flying the plane as the more experienced pilot monitored the flight. And things may have gone wrong in a span of just three minutes and 20 seconds, triggering a stall warning that sounded until it crashed into the Java Sea.
om/2015/01/29/asia/airasia-disaster/index.html

Here's the source: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/29/asia/airasia-disaster/

"The stall warnings -- which blare the words "Stall, Stall" -- went on as the plane started the steep climb and continued until it crashed, according to information on the flight data recorder.

The voice warning doesn't always mean the aircraft has stalled, said Mardjono. The warning can be triggered when the angle of attack, which is the angle at which the wing tackles the oncoming wind, hits 8 degrees."

The stall warning *can* be triggered at the AoA of 8 degrees? At which altitude?

But if the stall warning sounded until impact... well... I just hope we don't have a cheap AF447 remake on our hands.  


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
spacecadet
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:34 am

Quoting cyloncat (Reply 213):
Those news articles are more confusing than clarifying. Details appear to be chery-picked and presented out-of-order, with no concern about separating causes from pilot responses.

That's the way it is with every crash. Mostly it's the media wanting to scream "SOLVED!" before anyone else, so every little detail that comes out gets treated as if it's the cause of the accident rather than just one more factor.

Almost all accidents are a confluence of events. There is usually one main causal factor but I don't think we've gotten there yet. It seems to me that what we've heard so far are either contributing factors or effects of those contributing factors. Yes, the plane ascended very quickly and then stalled - why? We don't know. That may or may not be the cause but it's important info. Did the pilots react inappropriately to the ascent? Again, we don't really know. Their reaction could be the biggest causal factor or it might not be - maybe their reaction was appropriate and the airplane was uncontrollable at that point.

It seems that all we really know so far is that a) the plane ascended very quickly and stalled; b) the first officer was at the controls; c) there were warnings of the stall in the cockpit. I'm not sure any of that really suggests a root cause.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
hivue
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 223):
It seems that all we really know so far is that a) the plane ascended very quickly and stalled; b) the first officer was at the controls; c) there were warnings of the stall in the cockpit.

The crew pulling the breakers on FAC1 and 2 seems to be established as well.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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EK413
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RE: Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 13

Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:40 am

Hi All,

We have kicked off Part 14 please continue the discussion here;

Air Asia QZ8501 SUB To SIN Crash - Part 14 (by EK413 Jan 29 2015 in Civil Aviation)

EK413
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