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What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:02 pm

Please continue to post here.

What's Going On In CLE - Part 8 (by American 767 Nov 12 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:44 pm

Weird sentence in my last post. I meant to say the PD article hinted that UA didn't move much of their CLE traffic to their other hubs; they simply lost it to other airlines.
 
LifetimeGS
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:48 pm

Losing passngers to other airlines is what UA does best, not just in CLE.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 201):
And, surprise, surprise, there aren't many fans of ORD in Cleveland, apparently.

Most of our still-loyal CLE travellers from BNA prefer to transit through IAD these days, though many do still take ORD for connection time or due to IAD delays.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:05 pm

The PD today says northeast Ohio businesses want at least eight destinations restored that UA cut in the dehubbing, namely:

Austin, Kansas City, New Orleans, Providence, San Antonio, San Diego, St. Louis, and West Palm Beach. (These cities have been over 100 pax PDEW in the past, some well over.)

In fact, UA still flies to STL 2x daily, but will those two flights survive UA's plan to cut 50-some more 50-seaters in 2015? Probably not. Let's also note that BDL isn't especially well served by DL and UA could easily kill today's 3x to MKE, so those should be on the list, also.

I think there is a fair shot getting MCI (WN? F9?), STL (WN after UA quits?), MSY (F9 less than daily?), and SAN (NK?). However, AUS, PVD, SAT, and PBI as well as BDL and MKE would probably require somebody to make CLE a focus city. It's hard to see that happening before 2016.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:04 pm

I doubt PBI gets any love...despite being in South Florida, it is still fairly close to FLL, which is much cheaper and/or more popular. PBI gets decent hub service, but that's about it. I always thought it was weird PBI doesn't do better with air service than it does. I lived in Palm Beach Co. for a long time, and the population continues to shift northward. Jupiter, Pt. St. Lucie, etc. are growing - yet air service growth, to me...correct me if I am wrong...has been rather stagnant at PBI.
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rtalk25
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:02 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 4):
The PD today says northeast Ohio businesses want at least eight destinations restored that UA cut in the dehubbing, namely:

Austin, Kansas City, New Orleans, Providence, San Antonio, San Diego, St. Louis, and West Palm Beach. (These cities have been over 100 pax PDEW in the past, some well over.)
B6 recently launched CLE-FLL, and NK did just before. F9 and UA also fly it. I'd think CLE should be happy that variety of carrier service to an airport just one hour south. Actually maybe F9 could offer a mix of FLL and PBI out of CLE next winter just to differentiate itself given the competition now on CLE-FLL.

At TTN, it did less than daily FLL and less than daily PBI this winter. However, Trenton reaches from Central NJ customers who belong part of NYC region and I think PBI is popular from NY region more than elsewhere, so maybe that was the incentive from F9.

I flew into PBI and then out of FLL, with a stay and did a one-way car rental to FLL without a drop charge, which is appears often easier intra Florida than elsewhere I've noticed. There is also train service between the regions. I don't think I was in a few that were flying one-way and returning on a different airport-airport or carrier flight.
--
SAT and AUS seem long shot.

Even from PHL, for a year or more (after Southwest ended nonstop from PHL), even PHL lacked service to these airports. US finally added 1x daily to PHL on PHL-AUS and PHL-SAT, but originally didn't even time them for SAT/AUS-PHL- Europe international. I don't think AUS-PHL is timed for international even this summer. It remains niche routes even from PHL and US might have just added it when the enough of the business community desired it and US could charge high fares for it. Otherwise, it preferred routing the local US FF through CLT, and the only possible competitive threat was Southwest that had prior deleted the routes.

CLE is closer to these markets, but still not significantly to be in short-haul distance, and doesn't have what US is in PHL anymore.

[Edited 2015-01-30 11:19:53]
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 4):

The PD today says northeast Ohio businesses want at least eight destinations restored that UA cut in the dehubbing, namely:

Austin, Kansas City, New Orleans, Providence, San Antonio, San Diego, St. Louis, and West Palm Beach. (These cities have been over 100 pax PDEW in the past, some well over.)

What's interesting about this list is that some of these were cut years before United even took over the CO hub.

The difficulty of getting these routes back (particularly for business travelers) is the drawdown of 50 seaters. Sure NK or F9 could pick up one or two of these routes, but business travelers aren't going to flock to those flights. Secondly, to accommodate business schedules, you often need at least 2 daily departures, otherwise travelers will choose connections that get them where they need to go faster. With UA out, that leaves DL or AA to add some token RJs to some of these routes. We've seen DL try IND and fail, and RDU and BDL get slashed to a 3x weekly schedule as the regional situation gets worse. That leaves AA to come in, which seems pretty unlikely since they don't even fly to their hub at DCA. Of course, there's always Southwest, which probably offers the best chance of picking up a daily flight to at least one airport on this list. Of course WN, with a 1x daily schedule, might not offer the times that a business traveler demands.

Of that list, only MCI and PVD were routes that had consistent 3-4x daily frequencies for years. Of the cut routes these were probably the most hurtful to business travelers.

AUS - This was the last new route that UA added to CLE before shutting the hub, it was added just 4 months before the UA announcement. This was a once daily mid morning departure from CLE on a CR7. So for a business traveler, you could have had a morning departure from CLE with a connection and still arrived in AUS before the nonstop did. Its cut wasn't that devastating to the biz community in my opinion.

MSY - This was also a 1x daily mid morning departure out of CLE on RJ45. Connecting in IAH was more viable most of the time.

SAT - Hadn't been flown nonstop out of CLE in years.

SAN - Flown seasonally around the holidays, was never geared towards the business community

PBI - Flown seasonally during winter and spring break on a single daily RJ45 the past few years, but I believe was mainline not that long ago. Once again, never geared towards the business community.

STL - Still flown twice daily by UA, with times geared towards the business community. When UA does decide to drop this route, WN will probably pick this up. I'm surprised they haven't just swapped a BNA frequency for an STL frequency yet.

I'd imagine there'll be another WN schedule extension in February for early fall travel. Maybe, CLE will be lucky enough to pick up a new route or two and we'll see something from this list pop up.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:51 pm

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 7):
The difficulty of getting these routes back ...

I think the only way to get some of the lost cities back would be with a return of one-stop routings, which cheaper fuel just might make possible. For example, AA used to fly BDL-CLE-LAX-CLE-BDL. If they restored that routing twice a day with an A319, they could support the CLE-BDL traffic, give BDL a better flight to LAX than some mega-hub connection, steal back the CLE-LAX market, and probably make money overall. But, and it's a big but, would they make enough money compared to other uses of the aircraft?

I don't know the answer to that, but much of the one-stop cost is fuel burn on the second takeoff and climb. There are plausible scenarios that say fuel may bounce back to $60 a barrel, but $100 may never happen again (relative to other prices). So cheaper fuel may be a great help to airpolrts like CLE vis-a-vis the mega-hubs.
 
SunsetLimited
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:01 pm

I think CLE-MSY would make a good NK route. I hope it happens. I would say F9, but they have shown zero interest in MSY. NK on the other hand has.
Spread hope like fire.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:29 pm

Both the PD airport series and Crain's Cleveland Business (a much more astute article - subscription required) say CLE is dickering with 2 more airlines, apparently domestic.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/artic...ternational-airport-can-soar-again

What's left? Allegiant and Virgin America? Let's see ... Allegiant to Orlando (SFB) and St Petersburg (PIE)? Virgin to ??? That's a hard one - a couple stub ORD-CLE runs?. The Crain's article also hints that discussions with foreign lines may be more advanced than people think.

Crain's also talks about a giant gate shuffle that could lead to closing a concourse. B? That's the worst of the three that are operating. A is probably the best of the bunch for appearance and roominess, although it's now apparently the busiest one since F9 and NK showed up.

If CLE let's UA weasel out of their contracts, CLE is nuts - there are NO tradeoffs worth it until at least half the airport debt is paid off.
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):

Both the PD airport series and Crain's Cleveland Business (a much more astute article - subscription required) say CLE is dickering with 2 more airlines, apparently domestic.

Alaska would be outstanding, espectially given F9's penchant for running away from competition at CLE. CLE-SEA would give excellent west coast connection opportunities too. F9/NK/B6/AS would be a coup for CLE management. VX also.

Interesting article, but where the hell is "Frankfort, Germany?" I hope the people contacting the airlines in Europe are a little more saavy. Would be embarrassing if we landed service to Kentucky by accident...

[Edited 2015-02-01 11:47:04]
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
A is probably the best of the bunch for appearance and roominess

A is the roomiest, but I don't like it at all. It seems... half-assed, especially towards the end where your only food/drink option is a chincy Hudson News. It's also very blandly white. If they keep A and forsake B, they need to remodel it.

B is narrower, for sure, but for some reason I prefer it over A. I haven't flown out of C in coming up on a year now, and unless B6 winds up there, I won't be back any time soon.

And, while I agree we should milk UA and hold them responsible for their gates, used or not, it would be foolish to tell an airline that tells CLE "we want room on C/D because we want to grow" to buzz off.

[Edited 2015-02-01 11:53:15]
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:26 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 12):
it would be foolish to tell an airline that tells CLE "we want room on C/D because we want to grow" to buzz off.

Six gates in C can be recalled from UA at the city's option. These are the old Northwest gates. I guess they could be put in play for negotiating purposes with a promise of more gates later. Six should probably satisfy almost any "focus city" idea.

But CLE really needs to pay down the debt and lower the landing fees to be competitive with similar cities. And they need that UA money to do it. It's absurd to owe over $800 million on an almost 60-year old facility that shows its age. They built up the debt incrementally, and admittedly some of the expenditures were Federal mandates (the deicing pads); so let's reduce it incrementally but rapidly. The Republicans are *not* going to be impressed by a buffed-up facade for the ticket counters.   
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:16 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 13):
The Republicans are *not* going to be impressed by a buffed-up facade for the ticket counters.

No, but we do need it, and badly. That whole area needs expanded, though; the security line pours out into and clogs up the ticketing area with considerable regularity. Idk how feasible it'd be, but from an aesthetics/functionality standpoint I'd rather see them spend money on a new ticketing and security area between D and C, and have those be the two active concourses. Then plow A/B asunder.

Parking is also embarrassingly bad. For not having a hub, every day I see "the lot is full!" on their facebook page. It's pathetic.
 
point2point
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:26 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):
Parking is also embarrassingly bad. For not having a hub, every day I see "the lot is full!" on their facebook page. It's pathetic.

Actually, it makes sense. Since UA is basically no longer in control and able to gouge all the CLE area folks with sky high fares, other carriers have moved into a lot of the lucrative routes there, and this competition has produced lower fares. And of course, per Economics 101, lower fares will mean more pax......

But yes.... when there's no parking at an airport.... it is embarrassingly bad......

 
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 14):
Parking is also embarrassingly bad. For not having a hub, every day I see "the lot is full!" on their facebook page. It's pathetic.

Very remote, ground-level parking lots and shuttle buses is Smith's answer until he can build something grand and multi-storied that will be less remote but still require bus service. The walkable lot prices were then raised to nose-bleed levels. That's what he did in Baltimore. Net result: higher prices and less convenience.
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 15):
But yes.... when there's no parking at an airport.... it is embarrassingly bad......

The last time I had to actually park my own car at CLE I was furious after having to drive around 3 times before finding the, what, "red" lot or something... and then parking outside in the snow, way over by constant aviation. It's also unattended, and the credit card machine was glitching. I can't imagine how older/less patient passengers must feel.

In general, though, I've been really impressed with CLE's management. We have handled the de-hubbing splendidly. Landing F9, NK, and B6 is a big deal, and if we can snag 1 or 2 more we'll be sitting pretty with options. Not as good as a hub, but not bad.

Fix parking, fix security, and get the terminal up to snuff, then we'll be good to go.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 16):
The walkable lot prices were then raised to nose-bleed levels.

Meh, coming from Boston where 32$/day is a steal, I'm not complaining about 13 bucks.

[Edited 2015-02-01 13:34:49]
 
PITrules
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):

What's left? Allegiant and Virgin America?

With Allegiant now at PIT, I almost expect them to shift their YNG flights to CLE due to YNG's proximity to PIT.
FLYi
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:02 pm

I thought this was interesting: CLE's airport website shows jetBlue on B concourse. Have they announced B6's gates yet?
 
oflanigan
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:20 pm

Quoting PITrules (Reply 18):

There is a ton of comparable competition at CLE now. But with PIT opening for Allegiant you have little old CAK down the road that could easily take care of both YNG and CLE.

Could CAK be a better play for Allegiant?
 
LifetimeGS
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:20 pm

B6 will use gate B7 at CLE.
 
oflanigan
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:59 pm

Does United still run ramp Control?
 
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jetpixx
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:16 am

From the sound of the column, AS almost sounds like a slam dunk. If they're looking for service to PDX and/or more service to SEA, Alaska has to be the one. And the possibility of waiving landing fees for a year?

I don't know what the second airline might be, but I'll take a guess and say they have been in contact with Icelandair, per the column. I'll say 757 service to KEF. That would be amazingly cool for CLE.
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 23):
From the sound of the column, AS almost sounds like a slam dunk. If they're looking for service to PDX and/or more service to SEA, Alaska has to be the one. And the possibility of waiving landing fees for a year?

I don't know what the second airline might be, but I'll take a guess and say they have been in contact with Icelandair, per the column. I'll say 757 service to KEF. That would be amazingly cool for CLE.

I Totally agree about AS. Ricky Smith was looking for better service to the Pacific northwest when he first came on board to CLE with limited seasonal CO service to SEA. As pointed out above, with F9 not seemingly committed to anything and only catering to O&D between CLE-SEA during their periods of service, AS would cater to connecting traffic from CLE beyond SEA to all of AS northwest and their system opportunities. I've thought for quite some time that Icelandair with their 757 fleet would be a great fit for CLE-TATL service, especially as they have expanded their US destinations.

Overall I was impressed with the article and finally convinced that the management actively seeks more or better service and I commend them for it and what's happened so far.
 
greenair727
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:32 am

^re KEF, it seemed like they were looking at Europe in terms of business, so I'd say KEF is unlikely. BA/AA to LHR may be more possible. That said, a direct to Iceland in an of itself would be sweet.
 
swacle
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting LifetimeGS (Reply 21):

Ate you sure? Who will get the ground service contract? I just assumed they would be on A wit Swissport providing ground support.
Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
If CLE let's UA weasel out of their contracts, CLE is nuts - there are NO tradeoffs worth it until at least half the airport debt is paid off.

   I would make United pay every penny they owe for the entire duration of their contract. Maybe give in a gate or two if you REALLY need the location or something.

Lets be honest united will give in on one gate or anything if the airport really wants it, the airport is holding all the cards thru the contract united has no power to do anything. Sure they can reduce flights even more but they will do that anyway! They are gonna keep flying what makes real money to recoup some of their high leases they gotta pay and cut everything else. Look at DL in CVG they still fly some routes to lose as little as possible your paying for all those gates makes no sense not to fly some of the flights that really make money and recoup some of those loses you gotta pay. united and delta are both rolling back to spoke status as soon as those contracts end its reality and nothing CVG or CLE can do to stop them.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 23):
I'll say 757 service to KEF. That would be amazingly cool for CLE.
KEF would be better than nothing, but I think DUB would be even better yet. As long as the European traveler has to change planes somewhere, it might as well be DUB and get the advantage of US customs and immigration pre-clearance. Aer Lingus has been mulling over additional US possibilities for their 757s; maybe CLE is one of them.

[Edited 2015-02-02 23:14:49]
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:11 pm

3rd quarter fare data has been released for 2014. It should come as no surprise that CLE fares dropped in the first full quarter as a non hub. The average fare at CLE fell 7.3% compared to the same quarter the year prior. CLE also fell to 19th most expensive US airport, it had consistently been in the top 10 for quite some time.

During the 3rd quarter Frontier was still in its LCC phase and hadn't quite fully transitioned to ULCC yet. I'd imagine future quarters will show bigger fare drops, especially with Spirit and JetBlue coming online.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:32 pm

http://www.nextantaerospace.com/corp...light-for-new-g90xt-turboprop.html

Nextant's G90XT (remanufactured/reengined KingAir) completed its first flight series from KCGF. No news from the company on where they might locate additional manufacturing facilities, so Richmond Heights is it at least for a while, I guess. I wish the company weren't so close-mouthed.  
 
lpdal
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:05 pm

Hello from my neck of the woods!

I was in FLL on Saturday, and asked one of the United Club agents if they were sad that CLE-FLL-CLE was being cut. They actually thought it already had been cut, and I had to correct them saying it would be cut on Saturday (February 7th, 2015). They told me that they usually used the FLL-CLE-FLL flight to nonrev because it was always empty due to high fares (keep in mind that up until late last year CLE-FLL-CLE was ran on 73G/8/9, and at the end of the year they tried to run it on an ERJ-145 but the loads weren't there). One of them said, "On a good day, we'd all clear into first class. *laugh*" But there was some element of truth to it. They seemed sad because the FLL-CLE segment was such an easy nonrev opportunity.

However, UA is still giving CLE-departing travelers options from the only retained Florida city, MCO:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7395/16264631077_aa24ac957a_c.jpg
Yes, it's 3M (Silver Airways). UA management's plan is to connect CLE-departing pax from MCO to the Floridian cities that are not going to be served by UA from CLE. Also soon South Carolina and currently the Bahamas.

Now for a bit of clarification...

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 5):
I doubt PBI gets any love...

PBI is nicer than FLL and more homely than MIA.

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 5):
despite being in South Florida, it is still fairly close to FLL,

42 miles, a decent distance, but still somewhat close.

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 5):
which is much cheaper and/or more popular.

Sometimes that, sometimes PBI is cheaper.

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 5):
PBI gets decent hub service, but that's about it.

Not really, they do get more than just hub service from "decent" airlines.

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 5):
I always thought it was weird PBI doesn't do better with air service than it does.

For me, retaining destinations is good.

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 5):
I lived in Palm Beach Co. for a long time, and the population continues to shift northward. Jupiter, Pt. St. Lucie, etc. are growing - yet air service growth, to me...correct me if I am wrong...has been rather stagnant at PBI.

Yes, it has stayed largely the same. However, you cannot say XYZ area has a population of 300,000 people and "why is it not doing better". Many people in big cities can't afford to fly and may be under the poverty line. You can't just say EG Cincinnati has a population of hundreds of thousands people, why is there less service? You have to consider how many people in the city can afford to fly and the target demographic. Doesn't matter if there's 300,000 people in a city yet only 30,000 can afford to fly.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 6):
B6 recently launched CLE-FLL, and NK did just before. F9 and UA also fly it. I'd think CLE should be happy that variety of carrier service to an airport just one hour south.

UA is gutting CLE-FLL-CLE February 7th (Saturday).

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 6):
PBI is popular from NY region more than elsewhere

That is FLL.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 6):

I flew into PBI and then out of FLL, with a stay and did a one-way car rental to FLL without a drop charge, which is appears often easier intra Florida than elsewhere I've noticed. There is also train service between the regions. I don't think I was in a few that were flying one-way and returning on a different airport-airport or carrier flight.

You're not.  

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
rtalk25
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 31):
UA is gutting CLE-FLL-CLE February 7th (Saturday).

Then, only LCCs will be flying the route. Then again, AA is on CLE-MIA.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 31):
That is FLL.
PBI is also very popular.

Sorry for steering this away from CLE:

But since I referred to NY area, Southwest has 3x ISP-PBI with only 2x ISP-FLL in the Winter. A lot of Jewish Americans from New York and New Jersey head down there, and may prefer choosing to fly into PBI over FLL if possible.

Back on CLE, I don't know if there are also local ties like Jewish Americans in the CLE area, but perhaps some do prefer flying into PBI. I think Frontier might be the oddball airline to do something like 4x weekly CLE-FLL and 3x weekly CLE-PBI next winter, just if it wants to differentiate itself from NK and B6. It's offering a schedule like that out of TTN, but technically PBI was added after the FLL schedule was already set in place. I'm sure next winter F9 will offer a less than daily PBI again out of TTN, so perhaps it'd consider the same for CLE given the new competition there now.

[Edited 2015-02-05 08:54:47]
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:01 pm

United doesn't cut CLE-FLL until April 6, not February 7th. Despite UA dropping this route CLE will have more CLE-FLL service than it has seen in years with 3 different carriers each operating a daily flight. When was the last time CLE had 3x daily flights to FLL in the summer?
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 32):
Then, only LCCs will be flying the route

  
So if you want to fly CLE-FLL, UA will route you on CLE-MCO-FLL. MCO-FLL will be on a Silver Saab 340B+. Yeah, you will have to connect, but at least you have an option...Frankly, I'm surprised UA hasn't cut CLE more. FLL, RSW, TPA...all gone.   

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 32):
Then again, AA is on CLE-MIA.

  
E175 service starting (started?) on Eagle as well.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 32):
PBI is also very popular.

  

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 32):
A lot of Jewish Americans from New York and New Jersey head down there, and may prefer choosing to fly into PBI over FLL if possible.

Unfortunately as stated before usually PBI is more expensive due to the smaller station size.

Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 32):
CLE-PBI next winter,
Quoting rtalk25 (Reply 32):
It's offering a schedule like that out of TTN, but technically PBI was added after the FLL schedule was already set in place. I'm sure next winter F9 will offer a less than daily PBI again out of TTN, so perhaps it'd consider the same for CLE given the new competition there now.

The three way battle between Frontier, JetBlue, and Spirit to and from CLE is very entertaining to watch. I just hope more legacy service is added....

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 33):
Despite UA dropping this route CLE will have more CLE-FLL service than it has seen in years with 3 different carriers each operating a daily flight.

Ah, thanks for that correction. But that's only about + or - month and a half longer, nothing to write home about.

As for your question about other carriers flying CLE-FLL-CLE I was solely talking about UA serving that route direct. I have no problem flying FLL-MCO-CLE just to be on UA, they're my favorite airline, plus the treat of riding on the Silver Saab on the puddlejump up to Orlando.   

-LPDAL

[Edited 2015-02-05 09:20:50]
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4383
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 34):
The four way battle between Allegiant, Frontier, JetBlue, and Spirit to and from CLE is very entertaining to watch. I just hope more legacy service is added....

Doesn't seem likely that any legacy will do major additions except maybe fill some routes to hubs. The LCC are adding the seats that are needed for lost o&d it seems. That is honestly best for consumers. Its best to have LCCs and ULCC add those seats for lower fares. This is the best case scenario for consumers lower prices!
 
greenair727
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:47 pm

Quoting LPDAL:
Yes, it's 3M (Silver Airways). UA management's plan is to connect CLE-departing pax from MCO to the Floridian cities that are not going to be served by UA from CLE. Also soon South Carolina and currently the Bahamas.

If Clevelanders have to connect anyway to get to those cities (except for those with direct service), there's certainly no reason to take UA over US or AA. I know a lot of people who go out of their way now to avoid UA.
 
fun2fly
Posts: 1492
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:44 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:32 pm

Now, we can't say they didn't ask...take the survey on "What would it take for CLE to be world class?"

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...s_seeks_custom.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Link is in the PD story.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5382
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:15 pm

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...ss_starting_char.html#incart_river

Another charter operation starting up - Vacation Express, with once-weekly flights operated by Interjet of Mexico to Cancun and Swift Aire to Punta Cana. These are apparently closed charters, as opposed to the public charters by Apple/Frontier to the same locations.
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:35 am

The DOT has released fare information and city pair traffic information for 3rd quarter 2014. Of course this is very interesting information for CLE as it represents the first full quarter as a non hub airport.

A few interesting bits of information from just comparing 3Q14 to 3Q13, numbers are both ways combined:

CLE-PVD traffic fell off a cliff with the loss of the nonstop; going from 119 daily pax to 52. This should bode well for JetBlue and Spirit as they will likely pick up PVD bound passengers and scoop up quite a few driving to CAK.

CLE-SEA traffic went up from 259/day to 305. This is noteworthy because in 2013 UA operated daily flights with 2x daily peak days on a 757. F9 came in as the only nonstop carrier 3x per week. Despite the slash in nonstop capacity, fare stimulation on this route still caused passenger volume to rise. We'll see what the daily F9 flight does this summer to these numbers

CLE-PHX traffic for summer went up from 283/day to 389. UA didn't offer this as a nonstop in summer 2013, but F9 scooped it up in 2014. With AA and WN adding this later in the year, I'd imagine these numbers will look really good in future reports.

CLE-DEN traffic went from 481 to 543, clearly the result of F9's 2x daily flights

CLE-RDU rose from 157 to 218.

CLE-MCO rose from 364 to 566. CAK fell from 344 to 289. So F9 took a small chunk of CAK traffic and stimulated quite a bit more at CLE.

CLE-DFW rose from 334 to 431.

CLE-ATL rose from 390 to 574.

CLE-LGA fell big time from 625 to 483. CAK-LGA carried more O&D than CLE O&D in the 3rd quarter. I'm betting F9's brief stint in the 4th quarter reversed this. CLE-NYC could definitely use an LCC. I think JetBlue could make a 2 or 3x daily CLE-JFK work if they price matched WN's CAK-LGA route. It'll be telling to see how much of CAK's BOS traffic falls off with B6 at CLE.

Bottom line is that F9 did a pretty good job stimulating traffic to the markets they served from CLE, even if seat count was down year over year. We'll see what Spirit does to these numbers starting this quarter. I'd imagine there will be some heavy growth on the Florida routes.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1201
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:08 am

Good stuff lakeeffect, it just amazes me that UA felt it was best to gouge Cleveland's on jungle jets rather than to price to stimulate demand, at least for Saturday night stay leisure travelers. The most amazing market to me is CLE-BOS, such an under-seated over priced market. They cut PVD and MHT and BDL and STILL didn't add more seats to BOS, they just jacked the fares even more. Now lo and behold UA finally adds a few more seats. . . . .amazing how that happens. Thank you jetblue.

Those are quite pathetic OD numbers to LGA, but DL and AA must know something adding capacity to the market. More pax to DEN than to LGA???? Something ain't right with pricing in that market.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5382
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:17 am

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 39):
Bottom line is that F9 did a pretty good job stimulating traffic to the markets they served from CLE,

CLE boardings for Frontier in November are pretty amazing all by themselves:

2013 - 2,868
2014 - 41,615 (their best month to date)
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:00 pm

The November data for CLE is definitely encouraging. Pax counts had their lowest monthly year over year drop post hub at -17.5%.

The Frontier data is very impressive. Frontier carried more pax at CLE in November than WN. WN still saw their November pax grow from the year prior however with 3% growth. It just goes to show how WN missed a huge opportunity to grow their CLE operations. Frontier was CLE's second largest carrier in November with 15.3% of traffic versus Southwest which carried 14.1% of traffic. With Spirit already started and JetBlue 2 months away, low cost carriers will end up carrying a huge share of CLE traffic by summer 2015. June and July 2015 numbers versus the year prior will be telling as to how much O&D stimulation occurred.

As for the drop in LGA O&D in the third quarter, I think you can blame F9's CLE-TTN flight. O&D between this city pair in the past probably could be counted on one hand for the entire year. It goes to show what happens when you offer tons of seats at an alternative airport for 30% of the fare to NYC. There apparently was a lot of price sensitivity to LGA that TTN was a viable option for quite a few summer VFR travelers.
 
masseybrown
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Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 42):
As for the drop in LGA O&D in the third quarter, ...

The CLE-LGA drop you reported was so big that I wonder if DoT omitted some carrier's data. That kind of error has happened before. If the number was actually correct, it makes me question AA's sanity in resuming the route.  

Edit: Rather than blame DoT, we could blamer ExpressJet. I believe they have screwed up their reporting multiple times in the past.

[Edited 2015-02-13 08:10:09]
 
greenair727
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting lakeeffect:
CLE-LGA fell big time from 625 to 483. CAK-LGA carried more O&D than CLE O&D in the 3rd quarter.
Quoting MasseyBrown:
The CLE-LGA drop you reported was so big that I wonder if DoT omitted some carrier's data. That kind of error has happened before. If the number was actually correct, it makes me question AA's sanity in resuming the route.

Edit: Rather than blame DoT, we could blamer ExpressJet. I believe they have screwed up their reporting multiple times in the past.

Yeah, I hope this is the case. In addition to such a drop, for CAK numbers to surpass CLE for LGA seems very wrong.

If it is indeed due to error, does DOT go back and correct and re-issue the report?
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5382
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:43 pm

So ... I dug up the Q2 LGA average daily pax numbers for a CLE/CAK comparison for 2 quarters.

Q2 CLE - 541 CAK - 472
Q3 CLE - 483 CAK - 491

This seems indicate some kind of data problem with CLE-LGA. Every other CLE market that I looked at increased in Q3 over Q2.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:49 pm

Spirit announces CLE-ATL to begin 7May:

Looks like 1x daily on an A319, departing CLE at 6:00am and departing ATL at 830--arriving CLE at 1030am.


New cities---Between Atlanta and:

Cleveland (starting 5/7/15)
Las Vegas (starting 5/7/15)
Orlando (starting 5/7/15)
Baltimore/Washington D.C. (starting 6/18/15)
Philadelphia (starting 6/18/15)
Tampa (starting 6/18/15)
Los Angeles (starting 8/20/15)
Boston (starting 9/10/15)
Fort Myers - seasonal (starting 9/10/15)

http://marketing.spirit.com/traveldeals/air.php?s=2049&mw=1

[Edited 2015-02-17 13:56:19]

[Edited 2015-02-17 13:56:58]
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:06 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 46):
Spirit announces CLE-ATL to begin 7May:

Looks like 1x daily on an A319, departing CLE at 6:00am and departing ATL at 830--arriving CLE at 1030am.

The Frontier CLE-ATL schedule is also morning oriented but it operates a little later with a 7:35am departure.

So, Delta fare matches Southwest on CAK-ATL (2x daily), but hasn't on Frontier (1x daily).

Could Frontier's 1x daily + Spirit's 1x daily be viewed as a 2x daily, where a downward fare pressure effect might occur on Delta? Delta still has the business passenger market so it might still ignore the two carriers, but I figured that had it been if Frontier had increased to 2x daily that Delta would respond to fare match, like it does with Southwest over at CAK.
 
LifetimeGS
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:29 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:14 am

Will F9 retreat yet again?
 
joeman
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:55 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 9

Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:42 am

Quoting LifetimeGS (Reply 48):
Will F9 retreat yet again?

It would come at no surprise, despite the catalytic jump in O&D numbers on CLE city pairs demonstrated above. Planning to discontinue CLE-DFW even before NK enters the market says it all. AS could push them out of CLE-SEA overnight...seems they could easily and at least seasonally alternate a CLE-SEA with a CLE-DTW-SEA if needed be or if same plane service ever came into action again.

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