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Georgetown
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F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:43 pm

I was on a UAx flight (operated by SkyWest) from ORD to YYZ last week that was supposed to depart ORD ~9:00pm. Last scheduled flight of the night between the city pair. After we boarded and a few minutes before we were to depart I overheard one of the F/A's on her phone (to I assume someone from UA ops) say that the other F/A thinks she has left her passport in a jacket that she left at the hotel earlier that day. To make a long story short, by the time a replacement F/A arrived at ORD an hour later, the cancelled the flight due to our inability to get into YYZ ahead of curfew. Needless to say it was a hassle for all the pax to have to overnight in ORD and get up early the next morning.

My question is, what happens to the F/A in this situation? While I was annoyed at the hassle, part of me felt for her; yes it was irresponsible to leave the passport and not realize it / say something till the last minute, but at the same time I could see this happening to anybody at some point. She didn't seem terribly bothered by it, so I doubt she feared serious punishment, but at the same time I have a hard time believing that an airline is going to take a cancellation for this reason lightly.

Anyone with any insights here?
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Mir
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:05 pm

I'd consider that a fireable offense, but at the same time it really depends on how the FA is viewed by her managers. If she has a good record and if they believe it was an honest mistake that will never, ever happen again, then there's no point in firing an otherwise good employee - dock them the pay for the flight and leave it at that.

-Mir
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cedarjet
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:09 pm

I don't think it's necessarily a sackable offence; I know a guy who left his pilot's licence at home and it resulted in, if not a cancelled flight, then certainly a lot of aggro shuffling crew etc to make it all work. No disciplinary action taken, just got a good shouting. That was at BA btw. Of course, as pointed out above, if the employee has a rocky history, that is a different story.
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klm672
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:14 pm

It depends on the situation. It is technically a "duty item", so one could fire her because of that. At my old airline, an FA was fired because she forgot a coffee pot at an Outstation after a RON.
 
ei912
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:18 pm

On my previous airline, we had document checks both at briefing the beginning of a trip but more relevant, at every hotel prior to leaving for the airport. Saved many a crew with passports left in safes etc.
 
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Acey559
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:24 pm

I'd imagine this happens quite a bit. I know when I was at Eagle we would hear about it happening fairly often and it was never a big deal. Usually a quick meeting with the chief pilot or inflight supervisor and that's about it. Plus a little extra hassle from the customs personnel but I don't ever remember it being too much of an issue even with them. I've also heard of crew members forgetting company ID or pilot's licenses but that's a pretty simple procedure. The company will fax a copy of the ID to the outstation as a temporary to get them back to base and then handle things from there. They can also obtain a letter of verification for pilot privileges to get them back to base and then probably drop them from the rest of the trip. The airline is prepared for all of this I'm sure and can't see why anyone would actually get fired for something like that.
 
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777Jet
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:49 pm

I hope that a human would not get the sack for making an honest mistake - especially if it turns out to be a one-off mistake.

[Edited 2015-01-28 15:55:56]
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as739x
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:57 pm

The Canadian authorities seem to have a relaxed stance on this from my situations. The headquarters should have the passport copy on file. In the previous times I have come across this, the FA or Pilots were allowed to depart with the good graces of Canadian Immigrations being given a heads up. So an outright cancellation surprises me.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 7):
The Canadian authorities seem to have a relaxed stance on this from my situations. The headquarters should have the passport copy on file. In the previous times I have come across this, the FA or Pilots were allowed to depart with the good graces of Canadian Immigrations being given a heads up. So an outright cancellation surprises me.

I could see it being okay if they were turing around and coming right back but this does appear as it would be an overnight. Would the same rules apply?
 
Escapehere
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:48 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 7):
The Canadian authorities seem to have a relaxed stance on this from my situations. The headquarters should have the passport copy on file. In the previous times I have come across this, the FA or Pilots were allowed to depart with the good graces of Canadian Immigrations being given a heads up. So an outright cancellation surprises me.

If she leaves the airport, however, she'd need her passport to go through US-Preclearance in Canada. So it would need to be arranged with both authorities - probably not the easiest thing to do at 9pm.
 
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zeke
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:25 am

Quoting Georgetown (Thread starter):
My question is, what happens to the F/A in this situation?

Really depends on the airline, and where you are going. With bio-metrics and a scanned copy of your passport kept by immigration by a lot of countries, the actual document is becoming less important. I have left my passport at the office before and only realized after landing. The ground staff at the destination had a template letter that effectively said the person with my crew ID card that I had with me is on the GD and forgot their passport. No fuss at all by the company or immigration.

Some countries are like that, some fine the airline/crew, some make the crew stay on the transit side or pax out, I have heard of pay being deducted to cover the fine.

Quoting ei912 (Reply 4):

On my previous airline, we had document checks both at briefing the beginning of a trip but more relevant, at every hotel prior to leaving for the airport. Saved many a crew with passports left in safes etc.

When I use the safe, I put one of my shoes in with it, it has saved me a few times (sounds silly, but its simple). Being woken up at an abnormal time and getting ready in an unfamiliar environment, many of your normal cues are not there.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 7):
In the previous times I have come across this, the FA or Pilots were allowed to depart with the good graces of Canadian Immigrations being given a heads up. So an outright cancellation surprises me.

As a pilot, or a human, I would never depart for a foreign country without a passport. Even with a note from mom (in this case Canadian customs). If anything happens outside the norm, you are screwed.

Quoting Georgetown (Thread starter):
My question is, what happens to the F/A in this situation?

Nothing. It's an accident.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I'd consider that a fireable offense,

Then you consider a teacher getting a flat on her way to work and a last minute substitute to be a "fireable" offense?
Just because it is an airplane with 50 -100 people on board doesn't mean the crew of four isn't human and has to be perfect.

People will be late
People will get sick
People will fall down the crew room stairs while walking to their flight
People have loved ones with an emergency before a flight
People will have car trouble
People will leave documents behind
People will get arrested

This is humanity. It happens. Even in uniform, even with a plane full of people. And when it happens, the flight is delayed or cancelled.
 
32andBelow
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:35 am

What is up with the posters on here that think anyone should be fired for one SMALL offense. Great she forgot her passport in a hotel room. It happens. If it happened 5 times to the same person then that is different. There is not an HR manager in the world that would allow you to be fired for something like that.
 
TheMSYGuy
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:35 am

Why wouldn't a reserve flight attendant be used in this situation?
 
32andBelow
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting TheMSYGuy (Reply 13):
Why wouldn't a reserve flight attendant be used in this situation?
Quoting Georgetown (Thread starter):
To make a long story short, by the time a replacement F/A arrived at ORD an hour later, the cancelled the flight due to our inability to get into YYZ ahead of curfew.
 
bjorn14
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting TheMSYGuy (Reply 13):
Why wouldn't a reserve flight attendant be used in this situation?

By the time the reserve got there the flight would not have made curfew at YYZ. I just hope UA put them up for the night and pax didn't have to pay.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:47 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 15):
By the time the reserve got there the flight would not have made curfew at YYZ. I just hope UA put them up for the night and pax didn't have to pay.


This is a not a cancellation that UA would pay for. This is a cancel code for Airport Curfew which no compensation is made. If they coded this to a crew cancel, then that is paid for by UA.
 
ltbewr
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:53 am

I presume if the person has some other picture ID (US/Canadian Drivers License) it would help. Still it is a hassle and procedures should be in place to deal with such hassles.
 
JRadier
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:40 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
When I use the safe, I put one of my shoes in with it, it has saved me a few times (sounds silly, but its simple). Being woken up at an abnormal time and getting ready in an unfamiliar environment, many of your normal cues are not there.

Same here, but for us it was a tie/scarf. That way you will notice you are missing something when you put on your uniform
 
ozark1
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:43 pm

Definitely not something they would fire a person over. Sometimes F/A's accidentally blow slides, resulting in lengthy delays and even cancellations. They would be called in, and something fairly serious would go in their file. They are serious incidents but mistakes are made.
 
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aerdingus
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting klm672 (Reply 3):
At my old airline, an FA was fired because she forgot a coffee pot at an Outstation after a RON.

Jesus!

Happened to me one day...I was staying in a new apartment...went to work...thought "Ooh I'll empty the bin on the way to the bus"...I usually have two things in me hands going to work: handbag & crewbag. So I had two things in me hands and I closed the door behind me. And then realised I actually had a BINBAG & crewbag in me hands. Me handbag with me passport & keys was inside the empty apartment. Luckily I still had me airport id on so I could make it into the crew room. I got screamed at and a grooming discrepancy as I was missing items for duty but in the end I could still do the flight. The f/o called ops for me, and once we flew inside the EU it was no problem. As we were just flying to Poland it was ok. If we had been flying to Morocco I would have been offloaded.

Not my finest moment....
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andrefranca
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:49 pm

it happened here in MAO when DL used to fly this route out of ATL, one of the crew forgot her passport but still made into the flight, after arriving in MAO obviosuly, she was refused entry (US immigration is tough on us so our immigration makes sure to be nasty at times), DL was fined in about 5K USD at that time and she was sent back on the same flight, DL had to send another FA to replace her....
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting klm672 (Reply 3):
It depends on the situation. It is technically a "duty item", so one could fire her because of that. At my old airline, an FA was fired because she forgot a coffee pot at an Outstation after a RON.

Not is she is unionized. At worst she would get a reprimand.

Quoting ei912 (Reply 4):
On my previous airline, we had document checks both at briefing the beginning of a trip but more relevant, at every hotel prior to leaving for the airport. Saved many a crew with passports left in safes etc.

As another poster said, I always use the trick of putting one of my uniform shoes in the safe along with passport, money, etc. Guaranteed I will not walk out of the room barefooted.

Quoting klm672 (Reply 3):
It depends on the situation. It is technically a "duty item", so one could fire her because of that. At my old airline, an FA was fired because she forgot a coffee pot at an Outstation after a RON

You don't get fired for not having a required item. Change of purses, crew bag, a million different things can make you forget something. If you realize it before the flight you can borrow an item from inflight. Can't tell you how many cockpit keys I have because I left mine in a jacket pocket. Now that they no longer work post 9/11 I had one gold plated with the word "Boeing" on the outside and had it made into a tie clasp. At least it has a function now and lots of memories.

I am always amzaed at posters on here who think everyone should get fired over minor offenses. There would be no one left at any airline in the world if that were the case. Allowances are made for being human. At most US carriers to be terminated you have to have committed one of the Three Cardinal Sins--Insubordination, theft or refusing a trip. I have seen personnel files an inch thick with infraction reports and they are still working (and, frankly, some should not be).
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 22):
Quoting klm672 (Reply 3):It depends on the situation. It is technically a "duty item", so one could fire her because of that. At my old airline, an FA was fired because she forgot a coffee pot at an Outstation after a RON

OK--had to ask. Why was he/she carrying around a coffeepot on a layover?
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Georgetown
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 16):

They did pay to have us put up for the night, as well as provided meal vouchers.
Let's go Hoyas!
 
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GuitrThree
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:24 pm

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but if I was the F/A I would have volunteered to do the flight and then stay on the Jet overnight. I wouldn't have to clear customs that way. There is food, water, drinks and a bathroom. I would have my personal items to freshen up in the morning. I was the one that screwed up and it would fix the problem of all the extra costs associated with my mistake.
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jetjack74
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
With bio-metrics and a scanned copy of your passport kept by immigration by a lot of countries, the actual document is becoming less important.

Well not everywhere. Happened not to me but another crewmember on a trip I was on. I was working a 3 day trip to NRT and was the economy purser, and the A-line had forgot his passport but noticed(or so he says) after takeoff. He let the FD know and they radioed ahead to NRT to have a station manager greet the flight to see if there was anything that could be done. He was on a multi-day trip heading off to other point in Asia, and if he was allowed entry, providing the next day flight was on-time, he could collect his passport off that flight. Well the immigration in Japan said no, and he was denied formal entry and had to be sent back to the US on the next flight, not to his domicile, but to anywhere in the US(same day) as they were refusing to hold him. He ended up going to HNL later that night as that was the last flight heading stateside until the next day. He got no pay for the trip, I was escalated to the A-line since I was the only other purser-qualified FA on that crew and also because I was going on-call for 3days right after that trip. So I was extended into my on-call days, which would've been fine, except I didn't pack for extra days, which meant my shower doubled as a laundry room
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nkops
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:07 pm

Quoting klm672 (Reply 3):
At my old airline, an FA was fired because she forgot a coffee pot at an Outstation after a RON.

Seems a bit excessive...

Aren't there passport cards now you can put in your wallet (or purse) that is about the size of a cc?
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nws2002
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but if I was the F/A I would have volunteered to do the flight and then stay on the Jet overnight. I wouldn't have to clear customs that way. There is food, water, drinks and a bathroom. I would have my personal items to freshen up in the morning. I was the one that screwed up and it would fix the problem of all the extra costs associated with my mistake.

The FAA would not consider that legal rest, meaning they would be short a FA in the morning unless they happened to have an extra one available at YYZ or could deadhead someone in before that.
 
spokemd
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:48 pm

Quoting nkops (Reply 27):
Aren't there passport cards now you can put in your wallet (or purse) that is about the size of a cc?

Passport cards are not valid for air travel.
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a/c dxer
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:39 am

Guess no tried to get a extension from YYZ on the curfew. Yes it can be done.
 
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longhauler
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting a/c dxer (Reply 30):
Guess no tried to get a extension from YYZ on the curfew. Yes it can be done.

That was my first thought.

We get curfew extensions at YYZ all the time. Each airline is allotted so many "airline caused" (crewing, maintenance, etc) delays a month. Maybe they had already used their allotment?

Non "airline caused" delays, like weather and ATC slot times normally don't get charged against your allotment and are quickly granted.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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zeke
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 26):

Sounds unusual, I know NRT is one of the ports that do let our crew through if they forget their passport. It is a bigger problem misplacing the shore pass issued.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
Mir
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 11):
Then you consider a teacher getting a flat on her way to work and a last minute substitute to be a "fireable" offense?

If it's part of a pattern, yes. But if you read the rest of my post, I think I made it quite clear that if it's just an isolated honest mistake then they shouldn't lose their job.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
bjorn14
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:34 am

Quoting Georgetown (Reply 24):
They did pay to have us put up for the night, as well as provided meal vouchers.

My respect for UA just went up a few milimeters.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
stay on the Jet overnight.

In YYZ? In January? Good luck with that.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:59 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):
Sounds unusual, I know NRT is one of the ports that do let our crew through if they forget their passport. It is a bigger problem misplacing the shore pass issued.

The Japanese go INSANE if you lose that orange shore pass. Last I knew you had to sign a letter of apology (written in Japanese) and promise never to do it again.

Crew members are very careful with those passes. I go out of my way to stress this with new hires who tended to toss it in the trash, not realizing what they were doing.
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aerdingus
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:44 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):

While it's a nice idea, as nsw2002 mentioned it wouldn't be recognised as legal rest which would see you go out of hours anyway. Also..to make your food, and stay warm...you would need ground power....not sure how the airline would feel about leaving the APU on all night or leaving the A/C plugged in all night. And as bjorn14 mentioned....you would be very very cold in a plane all night in YYZ.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 35):
The Japanese go INSANE if you lose that orange shore pass. Last I knew you had to sign a letter of apology (written in Japanese) and promise never to do it again.

What are these passes?
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jetjack74
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:51 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):
Sounds unusual, I know NRT is one of the ports that do let our crew through if they forget their passport.

Im not sure what the immigration agreements with your country, but they aren't as lenient with US crews apparently.

Quoting zeke (Reply 32):
It is a bigger problem misplacing the shore pass issued.

True, you have to write an apology to the emperor.
Made from jets!
 
AR385
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RE: F/A Without Passport Results In Cancelled Flight

Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:19 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 25):
and then stay on the Jet overnight.

I know you are a crew member, but putting aside the danger you may wake up as a very heavy popsicle, wouldn´t security measures forbid you to stay inside the RON aircraft?

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 26):
he was denied formal entry and had to be sent back to the US on the next flight, not to his domicile, but to anywhere in the US(same day) as they were refusing to hold him.

My question. That sounds like an actual deportation. And that is a legal problem with consequences. One may not be allowed back into the country that sent you back for a period of time. Is that the case?

Coincidentally, I have nothing to do with aviation, but my most recurrent nightmare is having to catch a flight and realizing I´ve left my passport behind. I get it few nights a month...

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