Easyjet Narrow Minded Or Cunning Plan

bendewire · Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:54 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-31060825

So Easyjet favours Heathrow expansion rather than Gatwick, is Easyjet hoping for access into Heathrow when/if expansion happens or does it fear competition at an expanded Gatwick.

I cannot understand Easyjets stance unless it believes it can operate its business model successfully from LHR, the debate is getting very interesting!

kaitak · Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:00 pm

As cunning as a fox who's just been made professor of cunning at Oxford!

This doesn't surprise me; U2 has expressed an interest in serving LHR before, but of course, that's not possible now. With a third runway it would be, though I can't help wondering if having U2 at LHR might seriously colour BA's view as to the attractiveness of having a third runway!

If U2 does to BA at LHR what it's doing at LGW, they will face some pretty serious problems! Of course they have the feed, but O&D on short haul would certainly suffer. Talk about throwing the cat among the pigeons!

It would be very good news for regional services as well, assuming U2 has no plans to go long haul. A lot of routes that have previously lost their LHR links would probably get them back.

SCQ83 · Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:17 pm

I guess Ryanair, Norwegian and to a lesser extent other carriers (Transavia, Vueling, Eurowings, etc.) eating "their cake" flying to major airports has something to do with it.

SKAirbus · Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:18 pm

I have read it as U2 supporting LHR expansion to protect its own interests at LGW... I.e. have a third runway at LHR, legacy carriers all move out of LGW allowing it more room to grow.

kdhurst380 · Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 3):
I have read it as U2 supporting LHR expansion to protect its own interests at LGW... I.e. have a third runway at LHR, legacy carriers all move out of LGW allowing it more room to grow.

This is exactly what it's about. Someone has to pay for it. Whilst easyJet are on record as saying they'd move to LHR if it got another runway, I would suspect that the actual reality is that easyJet would turn LGW into what Ryanair have turned STN into, it'd be cards on the table, we'll stick around, but we want it cheap, in the hope that everybody else uproots to LHR and puts LGW in a position of fighting for custom.

There's not much incentive for easyJet to move to LHR, it doesn't codeshare, it doesn't interline, it isn't affiliated with any other airline by alliance or otherwise.

fcogafa · Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:07 pm

Has BAW stated that they are in favour of a new runway at LHR? It would provide them with a lot more competition and maybe they are happy with the status quo, but can't come out and say it directly.

bobdino · Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
...though I can't help wondering if having U2 at LHR might seriously colour BA's view as to the attractiveness of having a third runway!

That was exactly my thought.

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 4):
There's not much incentive for easyJet to move to LHR, it doesn't codeshare, it doesn't interline, it isn't affiliated with any other airline by alliance or otherwise.

LHR has significantly more reliable access to central London than LGW; the Gatwick Express is a total mess. I fly monthly to London for a few days, and have a choice of flights into LGW or LHR at about the same time. I always choose LHR because of the Heathrow Express - I can reliably schedule meetings for 90mins after scheduled landing time.

If U2 wants to take shorthaul business travellers from BA, then moving into LHR would accomplish that nicely, especially since BA are working hard to make their short-haul product no better than U2/FR.

For those interested, here's U2's full submission: http://corporate.easyjet.com/~/media...ommission-consultation-jan2015.pdf . It's well written and easy to read, though curiously lacking in corporate branding.

Andy33 · Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting bobdino (Reply 6):
LHR has significantly more reliable access to central London than LGW; the Gatwick Express is a total mess. I fly monthly to London for a few days, and have a choice of flights into LGW or LHR at about the same time. I always choose LHR because of the Heathrow Express - I can reliably schedule meetings for 90mins after scheduled landing time.

But it's the Heathrow Express that's been the total mess recently with complete meltdowns on several days and disruption on many more. When it does run, you end up at Paddington. Now if that's actually where you hold your meetings, fine. But it's not in the business/legal/financial/entertainment/government/cultural/retail core within inner London, is it? You need to change trains or get a taxi for any of that.
Whereas Gatwick isn't just the Gatwick Express, there's even more frequent service on Southern to Victoria alongside and hardly any slower than the Gatwick Express, and equally frequent Thameslink trains which actually go right across that core and stop within it. Even Stansted manages a direct service right into the heart of the financial district, as does Southend!

GIANCAVIA · Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:39 pm

They will be majorly expanding at LTN in the coming years = North London covered. They rule the roost and want to protect South London with LGW being all for them. Dominance, Clever.

GCT64 · Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:01 pm

Back in 2001 Easyjet applied to serve LHR:

Press Release 3 Oct 2001:
http://corporate.easyjet.com/latest-...e/news-year-2001/03-10-01a-en.aspx
"easyJet today applied for take-off and landing slots at Heathrow for six daily services to Belfast International."

More recently, Easyjet joined the committee that represents airlines flying from LHR - that seems to be a pretty big hint....

9 Jun 2014 article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...throw-group-in-hint-on-future.html
"EasyJet has applied to join a key committee that represents carriers operating out of Heathrow, in a sign that the low cost airline is seriously considering a future move to London’s biggest airport."

bendewire · Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:03 pm

Even if Heathrow expands I cannot see it as a potential U2 Base, this based on congestion, Rail, Road Busses and laborious underground journey, taxi time, terminal size and access to gates. A short haul low cost carrier depends on turnaround so as to fly as many sectors per day as is humanly possible and with Heathrow's curfew this curtails any low cost carrier business model.

Without any interline/alliance in place U2 at Hethrow would be like a fish on a bike, so my belief is they want Heathrow o expand so any exodus from Gatwick would allow U2 to expand without hinderance

bobdino · Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting andy33 (Reply 7):
When it does run, you end up at Paddington. Now if that's actually where you hold your meetings, fine.

Oddly enough, yes... but the rest of your point is well taken. I was affected by the HEX meltdown, but still got into Zone 1 faster than the Gatwick Express has gotten me into town in the past. Maybe I've just been unlucky with that rail line.

Crossrail should mitigate a lot of the getting-to-LHR pain for the City, yes?

Quoting bendewire (Reply 10):
Even if Heathrow expands I cannot see it as a potential U2 Base, this based on congestion, Rail, Road Busses and laborious underground journey, taxi time, terminal size and access to gates. A short haul low cost carrier depends on turnaround so as to fly as many sectors per day as is humanly possible and with Heathrow's curfew this curtails any low cost carrier business model.

Without any interline/alliance in place U2 at Hethrow would be like a fish on a bike, so my belief is they want Heathrow o expand so any exodus from Gatwick would allow U2 to expand without hinderance

Read Easyjet's submission to the Commission. They contradict all your points and detail how and why they'd expand into LHR.

lesfalls · Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:11 pm

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 4):

But are slots at LGW more expensive now or is it that there isn't space even at LGW?

Andy33 · Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting bobdino (Reply 11):
Crossrail should mitigate a lot of the getting-to-LHR pain for the City, yes?

Oh yes, things will improve dramatically, and hopefully the fares will then match the rest of London's rail network.

Slightly before that the much delayed Thameslink upgrades should be completed as the works at London Bridge are completed and the complete new train fleet arrives, so Gatwick gets a boost too.

bobdino · Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 12):
But are slots at LGW more expensive now or is it that there isn't space even at LGW?

No. From Easyjet's submission, paragraph 32:

Quote:
It is possible to compare the slot values at Heathrow and Gatwick from information available on slot trades at the airports. At Gatwick easyJet purchased 25 slot pairs 21 from Flybe for £20m in 2013. These included slots at peak times suitable for long-haul flights. We note that Virgin’s entire long-haul network at Heathrow requires 22 slot pairs 22.
There have been several slot sales at Heathrow where the value of a single slot has been at least £20m, most recently American Airlines purchased a single slot pair from Cyprus Airlines 23 in 2014 for £20m

And paragraph 14:

Quote:
Heathrow is also completely full, operating at 98% capacity, unlike Gatwick, which operates at 85% capacity...

Utah744 · Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:38 am

Reply 1 "As cunning as a fox who's just been made professor of cunning at Oxford!"
Or would that be Hogwarts?

kaitak · Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:01 am

Quoting UTAH744 (Reply 15):
Reply 1 "As cunning as a fox who's just been made professor of cunning at Oxford!"
Or would that be Hogwarts?

No, it's Oxford; it's actually a quote from Blackadder; his dogsbody Baldrick would always use the phrase "cunning plan" to describe his brilliant plan, which would usually be something absurd, e.g. "let's not forget that you tried to solve the problem of your mother's low ceiling by cutting off her head"!

KD5MDK · Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:34 am

There's a great picture of an otter looking just that cunning.

I think the comparison U2 made for the cost of slots is very good, and also as a new or very small participant at LHR they could claim competitive necessity gives them priority over IAG for slot allocations or something.

Bongodog1964 · Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:36 am

3rd runway at LHR, BA and VS move their LGW operations to LHR and LGW becomes U2 land. Job done

ba319-131 · Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:01 pm

With BA effectively snubbing the loyalty of thousands of its Exec club members with the new changes, I suspect EZY would be welcomed with open arms @ LHR.

slinky09 · Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 3):

I have read it as U2 supporting LHR expansion to protect its own interests at LGW... I.e. have a third runway at LHR, legacy carriers all move out of LGW allowing it more room to grow.

It doesn't please LGW management for whom the prospect of U2 domination would greatly strengthen their ability to negotiate cost down, as BA and VS and others move their ops to LHR. But it is exactly as you say.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 18):
3rd runway at LHR, BA and VS move their LGW operations to LHR and LGW becomes U2 land. Job done

U2 is also on record as saying that they believe that if LGW does expand, the cost will be transferred to passengers in terms of increased landing fees etc. This they do not want. The noise about operating LHR is just that I think, I don't believe U2 would pay landing and other fees.

I do agree with EasyJet however, although ultimately both LHR and LGW should be allowed to develop new runways.

GT4EZY · Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 4):

There's not much incentive for easyJet to move to LHR, it doesn't codeshare, it doesn't interline, it isn't affiliated with any other airline by alliance or otherwise.

Those who follow Easyjet will appreciate that LHR is, in many ways, a logical step for them. Very much still a low cost airline but in some ways it is becoming hybrid and the arguments you put forward all applied to LGW when EZY set up shop there. Plus, EZY are targeting business travellers, taking market share from legacies, maximising yield and a LHR base would also target those who will only fly from LHR. Indeed, there are many out there who would fly a LCC such as EZY but will only fly from "the" London airport.

Quoting andy33 (Reply 7):
But it's the Heathrow Express that's been the total mess recently with complete meltdowns on several days and disruption on many more. When it does run, you end up at Paddington. Now if that's actually where you hold your meetings, fine. But it's not in the business/legal/financial/entertainment/government/cultural/retail core within inner London, is it? You need to change trains or get a taxi for any of that.
Whereas Gatwick isn't just the Gatwick Express, there's even more frequent service on Southern to Victoria alongside and hardly any slower than the Gatwick Express, and equally frequent Thameslink trains which actually go right across that core and stop within it. Even Stansted manages a direct service right into the heart of the financial district, as does Southend!

Crossrail will help this but still, you have a fantastic tube system.

Quoting bendewire (Reply 10):
Even if Heathrow expands I cannot see it as a potential U2 Base, this based on congestion, Rail, Road Busses and laborious underground journey, taxi time, terminal size and access to gates. A short haul low cost carrier depends on turnaround so as to fly as many sectors per day as is humanly possible and with Heathrow's curfew this curtails any low cost carrier business model.

In Summer Easyjet operates some late arrivals from some of the sunspots of Europe but generally speaking it's business day very much lends itself to LHR's curfew restrictions. It already fly's from similar airports across Europe, AMS, MAD, CDG all of which are very LHResque in many ways.

Boeing74741R · Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 21):

Indeed - as U2 have been happily operating to AMS, CDG etc for quite some time combined with their business model and strategy, a move to LHR isn't as far-fetched now as it perhaps was 20 years ago. Vueling also serve LHR, so it isn't entirely a LCC-free zone.

richardw · Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:25 pm

Vueling are just slot sitting for IAG, Iberia Express are doing the same.

GT4EZY · Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:48 pm

Aren't VY just operating Spanish cities that won't be touched internationally by IB? Similar to what Germanwings/euro wings do for LH?

Humberside · Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 24):
Aren't VY just operating Spanish cities that won't be touched internationally by IB?

Yes. Vueling's presence at LHR can be traced back to when Iberia transferred Spanish regional routes over to Click Air. As of this Summer, when Bilbao-LHR goes to BA, Vueling's only LHR route will be La Coruna IIRC

Luftymatt · Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 2):
guess Ryanair, Norwegian and to a lesser extent other carriers (Transavia, Vueling, Eurowings, etc.) eating "their cake" flying to major airports has something to do with it.

Easyjet already serves most of the major airports these airlines fly to.

SCQ83 · Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 26):
Easyjet already serves most of the major airports these airlines fly to.

And? The difference is that 5 years ago Easyjet used to have the monopoly in the low-cost segment in most of those routes. Legacies still didn't have many "low-cost fares" (no one-way ticket, no luggage), Ryanair flew to "the middle of nowhere" and Norwegian was pretty much secluded to Scandinavia.

Now from main airports like LGW, CDG, MAD, BRU or FCO, Easyjet has to compete with the likes of BA or AF offering similar prices and fares (for instance the Swiss Geneva fare), Norwegian from LGW or Spain, Ryanair flying to main airports (so easyJet does not have the advantage of flying to BCN VS GRO, BRU VS CRL, etc.) and regionally with Transavia (AMS/ORY), Vueling (BCN/FCO), Germanwings (BSL, BER, HAM, etc)

Luftymatt · Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 27):
And?

Yes...... I still don't see your point. It's not like they are excluding themselves from markets just because they have to fly from a major airport. If they want to fly it, they will. LHR doesn't really come into what you're saying. Yes Germanwings fly into LHR from secondary German hubs, but they are utilising LH slots there.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 27):
BRU VS CRL,

Easyjet could fly to either if they wanted to, but so far don't.

Yes the low cost market has expanded, but this will continue to happen. Point is, they aren't restricted outside of LHR.

SelseyBill · Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting bendewire (Thread starter):
is Easyjet hoping for access into Heathrow when/if expansion happens or does it fear competition at an expanded Gatwick

I think this is more about 'easyJet' expressing an early interest in 'remedy' slots on LHR-DUB resultant of whats likely to become "fallout" from EU permission on IAG's EI purchase.

EZ will know there is likely to be sufficient O&D business on LHR-DUB for it to 'stand-alone' @ LHR, and BA will secretly be welcoming of EZ flying to Dublin, as it will allow them to 'c/s' with EI on DUB, and free their own Dublin slots for use on new long-haul from LHR......

Rgds

Selsey Bill

bobdino · Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 29):
I think this is more about 'easyJet' expressing an early interest in 'remedy' slots on LHR-DUB resultant of whats likely to become "fallout" from EU permission on IAG's EI purchase.

EZ will know there is likely to be sufficient O&D business on LHR-DUB for it to 'stand-alone' @ LHR, and BA will secretly be welcoming of EZ flying to Dublin, as it will allow them to 'c/s' with EI on DUB, and free their own Dublin slots for use on new long-haul from LHR......

Hang on: if U2/EZ get the remedy slots, then BA will no longer have them, and won't be able to use them to fly long-haul.

Not that I disagree with the premise that IAG is buying EI for the slots; I think it's that plus eliminating a TATL competitor.

Andy33 · Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 29):
as it will allow them to 'c/s' with EI on DUB

But they already do codeshare on EI flights as well as operating their own. They've codeshared for years before they acquired BMI, and didn't stop.

SelseyBill · Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:55 pm

Quoting bobdino (Reply 30):
Hang on: if U2/EZ get the remedy slots, then BA will no longer have them, and won't be able to use them to fly long-haul.

Sorry; didn't express my view very clearly.

EI currently flies approx 75 DUB-LHR round trips per week of 144 'owned' dep slots @ LHR; lets say an average of 20 daily slots to Ireland and Belfast combined. BA currently flies approx 47 LHR-DUB round trips per week; lets say an average of 7 round trips daily, and 37 LHR-BHD round-trips per week; lets say an average of 5 daily.

Combined therefore, EI/ IAG 'spends' 228 departure slots per week; (say 32 average p/day) on LHR-Ireland/Belfast. I very much doubt that whatever is decided about the future of services to ROI, BA and EI will both fly to BHD (in the UK), and I doubt any ruling will detail future services and competition levels on LHR-BHD.

Once the EI/IAG deal is finalised @ governmental/EU level, and lets say the judgement states that 4 or 5 daily 'remedy' slots must be released by IAG for any potential new entrant; (eg, EZ); on LHR-DUB; IAG will still have plenty of 'surplus' or 'displaced' slots from the deal to maybe 'invest' in new long-haul services. Once finalised; I doubt BA will fly any longer on LHR-ROI/BHD; it will relinquish any 'remedy' slots it needs to; and leave LHR-ROI/BHD flying to EI.

EI short-haul flying is less costly for IAG.

Just my view..........

Rgds

Selsey Bill

Easyjet Narrow Minded Or Cunning Plan

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