ktachiya
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Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:17 am

I don't know if the attacks by ISIS have had an effect but can other airlines be thinking pulling out of the Japanese market altogether?

http://jp.reuters.com/article/topNews/idJPKBN0L700D20150203

Sorry, I could only find a link in Japanese.

Reuters is reporting that, "Restriction on airport curfews is really affecting profits in its three markets in Japan."

Currently QR flies into KIX, HND, and NRT. HND and NRT were added to their route network in recent years and the curfew at NRT combined with the horrible slot times at HND might be part of the reason, but why would KIX which is unrestricted have an effect on their profits due to airport curfew?

It just seems to me that they added both NRT and HND in a relatively short time span. They should have matured at least one market before starting HND. So, does this also apply for the other Middle Eastern carriers in the Tokyo market (EK and EY).

I think the winner out of the ME carriers is the PEK-NGO flown by EY. They cater primarily to Chinese tourists and the outbound Japanese market shouldn't really matter to them.

Any thoughts are appreciated!!!


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Sightseer
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:55 am

Without knowing how QR's banks are set up in DOH, I would think it makes more sense to retime NRT to a morning arrival and a noon-ish departure back to DOH. That way they'd offer a wider array of timings for TYO passengers. The KIX flights seem to be decently timed, and regardless, I'm surprised that they are experiencing problems despite a JL code share agreement (not sure how extensive it is).
 
ktachiya
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:11 am

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 1):
The KIX flights seem to be decently timed, and regardless, I'm surprised that they are experiencing problems despite a JL code share agreement (not sure how extensive it is).

Public perception for QR is really positive based on the people that I've talked to. In addition, both ANA and JAL card members get to redeem miles since QR is in OW but uses NH handling.

But true that the NRT flight should be retimed. It seems like HND and NRT is eating into the same pie. I think KIX doesn't face any fierce competition. EK was in the KIX market before QR. It would be a real waste if they pull out from all three airports at the same time. On the contrary, I wonder if a market like CTS or FUK which is not served by any of ME3 would work better for them.
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TC957
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:34 am

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 2):
I wonder if a market like CTS or FUK which is not served by any of ME3 would work better for them.

Agree - perhaps try a joint service to start with ( DOH-FUK-CTS )
 
ktachiya
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:42 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 3):
Agree - perhaps try a joint service to start with ( DOH-FUK-CTS )

Talking to several people from FUK airport, everyone was pessimistic when the AMS-FUK route initially started. But look at how successful KL has been at funneling passengers into FUK. FUK also offers excellent domestic connections throughout Japan (although a terminal change is necessary).

Its this mentality that everything in Japan has to be in Tokyo when the market is already saturated enough.
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TC957
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:54 am

I guess KL could loose a few pax to QR IF they should start FUK, but since KL have the whole Europe - FUK market to themselves then it should do well. Perhaps KL could try CTS on day as well and get similar good results.
 
ktachiya
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:34 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 5):
Perhaps KL could try CTS on day as well and get similar good results

Since QR flies to 3 points in Japan (NRT, HND, KIX) it could be really nasty if they cancel routes from the summer season. They have to rebook a lot of people.......
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ktachiya
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:46 am

Sorry, I finally found a link in English

https://research.tdwaterhouse.ca/research/public/Markets/NewsArticle/1664-L6N0VC41L-1
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behramjee
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:14 am

this sounds more like a face saving measure by QR to cite if they decide to suspend KIX altogether and just reduce overall Japan flights to a daily B787 operated to either HND or NRT only.
 
factsonly
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:54 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 5):
Perhaps KL could try CTS on day as well and get similar good results.

KLM has operated to CTS and NGO on a AMS-CTS-NGO routing using both B74M and MD11.


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EK413
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:59 am

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 2):
Quoting Sightseer (Reply 1):
The KIX flights seem to be decently timed, and regardless, I'm surprised that they are experiencing problems despite a JL code share agreement (not sure how extensive it is).

Public perception for QR is really positive based on the people that I've talked to. In addition, both ANA and JAL card members get to redeem miles since QR is in OW but uses NH handling.

JL is OneWorld... NH is Star Alliance...

I wouldn't call a person close to the airline as being a reliable source...

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RJ321
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:31 am

Quoting ktachiya (Thread starter):

I do not understand, what's the relationship of ISIS in QR's presence in Japan, can you explain ?

[Edited 2015-02-03 03:33:29]
 
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GE9X
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting RJ321 (Reply 12):

ISIS originates from wahhabi Islam and has more than a few sympathizers in Saudi Arabia and Qatar, some of whom are fairly wealthy and well connected. Before it morphed into its current form, it was financed by well off citizens of those countries to fight al-Assad in Syria. Many people point the finger at Qatar for not doing enough to stop the flow of money; others go further and accuse Qatar of actually sponsoring it like they do Hamas. So for those who live in a fantasy world, Qatar is now essentially synonymous to ISIS and handing money to Qatar Airways is no different than donating directly to global jihad. Now as to how this relates to Japan, it doesn't, but this month ISIS executed two Japanese hostages so the mental gymnasts go from there.

Armchair geopolitics... lol.
 
AAMDanny
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:45 pm

Japan is also in its third recession, maybe the yield on the Japan routes is low, and they are maybe considering using the aircraft on more profitable routes?
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:27 pm

I really wonder how well EK is doing in Japan. After all, Dubai is a WAY more desirable place for a stopping for a few days than Doha, which is QR's hub.

By the way, those airlines who are willing to fly to Fukuoka are making money. The Fukuoka metro area is booming like Tokyo and there are plentiful ways to get to Tokyo from Fukuoka, including the Shinakansen and a lot of domestic flights between FUK and HND (JL and NH) and NRT (LCC's) nowadays.
 
a380787
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:27 pm

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17):
I really wonder how well EK is doing in Japan. After all, Dubai is a WAY more desirable place for a stopping for a few days than Doha, which is QR's hub.

Hubs like DXB DOH AUH are only efficient for Japan to ME/Africa/LatAm connections. It's a rather southerly detour for most of Europe and a really really long detour for North America.

But I agree that DXB is 100000x more fun of a city to spend a few days than DOH, which is a sterile business town (kinda like the Guangzhou of the middle east)
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:31 pm

I can't imagine they're really considering pulling out of Japan--no one would care/notice other than QR; they have zero leverage.
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RJ321
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:10 pm

WHy does QR operate from both NRT and HND anyways ?

[Edited 2015-02-03 07:24:34]
 
TC957
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 9):
KLM has operated to CTS

Didn't know that. Wonder why they pulled off it when they did. AMS - CTS sounds like a good A332 route to me.
I agree with previous posters that QR should retime their NRT service, as it is with both their NRT & HND flights departing within 2 hrs of each other then customers have little choice. Incidentally, NRT always seems to try and get the QR flight out by 2200 iso the 22.20 scheduled time, guess this is to beat the night ban.
 
Robbie86
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:43 pm

If they do, I sure hope they wait till after the summer. I'm booked to fly ARN-DOH-NRT, KIX-DOH-ARN in June.   
 
Burkhard
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 18):
Likewise, even I don't understand it, and lets face it, anywhere in the world a customer buys on four parameters. Quality, Cost, Delivery, Service.

That would be hell! Don't you buy on conscience?

I don't buy shoes or clothes made by children in slavery.
I don't buy meat made in agro factories, but from real farmers.
I don't buy electricity made from coal, only from regenerative sources.

And that is why I would never consider to fly with the ME3 and pay them.
 
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Plane Holland
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 22):
Wonder why they pulled off it when they did. AMS - CTS

A quote from 2007:

KLM Royal Dutch Airlines announced that it intends suspending its Amsterdam-Sapporo-Nagoya roundtrip service effective February 1, 2002. KLM can no longer continue to operate the service at a profit following a steep fall in demand for air travel on the route. The downturn has been caused by a combination of two factors, the crisis in the airline industry since the September 11 attacks on the United States, and the current depressed status of the Japanese economy.

http://www.traveldailynews.asia/news...-to-suspend-sapporo-nagoya-service

Personally I think they should start AMS-CTS again with a 787

[Edited 2015-02-03 12:41:43]
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 8:41 pm

North asian markets are notoriously fickle when it comes to geo-political events. Take the Ebola scare for example. They stopped flying ET to the point flights were reduced on HKG/ICN. That's an obvious and recent example but yes, I can understand after the execution of the Japanese journalist (?) at the hands of the militants it would make a difference.

Any inhibition to the global domination of the ME3 has to be considered a good thing though. IMO, especially given the way QR in particular treat their crew.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
ktachiya
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:46 pm

Quoting RJ321 (Reply 21):
WHy does QR operate from both NRT and HND anyways ?

Sorry for my delayed response RJ321. In regards to why Japanese people are going to avoid the Middle East is due to the reasons that aerorobnz mentioned. In general, the Japanese public is shocked at this event. I believe that nobody blames the Middle East for it but North Asia is extremely sensitive to these kinds of events.

Eitherway, its sad they are considering pulling out of some markets. If they have a need to fly into HND/NRT on the Tokyo side in order to maintain their HND slots, wouldn't it be feasible to axe HND/NRT and just stick to KIX?

Or they could be like EY and just serve one market in Tokyo which is NRT rather than doing both NRT and HND.
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ojas
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:08 am

I'm still unable to guauge the problem with QR in Japan.

DOH-KIX/NRT leave at 0200hrs ish from DOH which is when most of the flights to Far east leave. NRT/KIX - DOH arrive into DOH at 0445hrs ish or so, which could be possibly an hour earlier than what QR would ideally want. Don't see any major profitability issue there!

DOH - HND; yes, the timings don't suit their hub requirements. So, they can make all noises about that though, I don't think the Japanese care much about that.
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ktachiya
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:15 am

Quoting ojas (Reply 28):
DOH - HND; yes, the timings don't suit their hub requirements. So, they can make all noises about that though, I don't think the Japanese care much about that

As with all other flights, the arrival time into Tokyo is just terrible. Seriously, get the major train system running 24 hours and nobody would complain. But if QR is complaining that much, why doesn't EK do the same. Is this just another tactic by the CEO so get what he wants?
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Planesmart
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:30 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 24):
I don't buy shoes or clothes made by children in slavery.
I don't buy meat made in agro factories, but from real farmers.
I don't buy electricity made from coal, only from regenerative sources.

I applaud your standards, but....
Do you live on a subsistence commune, dressed in the Emperor's new clothes, and ride a push bike?
You can't fly, because quite a few nations manufacturing aircraft parts and structures still generate the bulk of their electricity from coal. And fracking is hardly environmentally friendly.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:17 am

Quoting ktachiya (Thread starter):
but why would KIX which is unrestricted have an effect on their profits due to airport curfew?

KIX is also insanely expensive. I know that there have been efforts to bring the costs down, but it's still one of the highest cost gateways (aggregate and per pax) in the world.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 24):
Don't you buy on conscience?

Nope.

Nor do most people, for that matter ...seen the iPhone's sales stats lately?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ktachiya
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 29):
KIX is also insanely expensive. I know that there have been efforts to bring the costs down, but it's still one of the highest cost gateways (aggregate and per pax) in the world.

True. But the company that operates KIX (NKIAC) receives at least 70 million dollars (not yen, but in US dollars) and they use it to pull down landing fees for certain airlines. I am sure QR to DOH being a long distance route, gets this grant as well. At least for KIX, they don't have to worry about competition from 3 Airlines (QR, EY, EK). And since most of their landing fee is indirectly subsidized by the government of Japan, why would they want to axe that route?
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PHX787
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:22 am

The one thing that stood out from their reasoning was the airport curfews- i.e., HND.

QR should just focus on NRT.
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lightsaber
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:21 pm

Wait... QR has been running their routes for years and expanding and suddenly looking to pull out? I am doubting the source. Unless it has to do with the shock of the ISIS event and perceived funding from Qatar, I'm at a loss to explain this.

Or... it could be that the competition is just doing that much better.

Or... this could be an unreliable source rumor mongering.   

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 1):
Without knowing how QR's banks are set up in DOH, I would think it makes more sense to retime NRT to a morning arrival and a noon-ish departure back to DOH.

Slots are too precious at NRT to retime. It is worse than LHR for moving flight times around.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
I can't imagine they're really considering pulling out of Japan--no one would care/notice other than QR; they have zero leverage.

Agreed.

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 25):
In general, the Japanese public is shocked at this event.

As they should be. It was a horridly cruel event with no purpose but to show a willingness for cruelty.

Lightsaber
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Carpethead
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 32):
Slots are too precious at NRT to retime. It is worse than LHR for moving flight times around.

Not true anymore. Moving timings around is no longer a big problem. TK just adjusted its daytime departure by about two hours earlier.
DL rescheduled a lot of its operations, albeit cutting numerous flights too.
JL & NH keep adding to its afternoon connection bank, so the slot problem is most likely no longer that acute.

Anyways back to the topic. Any QR pullput will be welcome news to EK & EY.
EK could easily throw an A388 onto NRT or perhaps add a westbound daytime flight out of NRT for some variety.
 
777way
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:42 pm

Still not getting topic, there is no indication of them pulling out.
 
ktachiya
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:52 pm

NRT is increasingly becoming a LCC airport these days. There are numerous flight on both JLNH but other than that, many airlines that have secured slots at HND have reduced the number of flights at NRT.

Well, I think QR is mainly referring to HND. The arrival times don't allow any connections and getting into downtown Tokyo is a hassle. Many package tours that depart into and out of HND from other airport have a one night connection at a hotel in HND upon arriving.

But doesn't this also apply to EK?
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mdavies06
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:23 pm

If it is really as the article say related to restrictions on airport side, then I can only relate this to HND, and so I guess any cancellation will be on the HND route only. I can't see the same slot issues with NRT and KIX now.

Northeast Asia (Japan, South Korea and Northern China) seems to be one of the few rare regions in the world that ME3 struggle (from my own observation). Mass tourism to the Middle East and Africa does not exist. Business traffic tends to be small (though growing). The only region they can potentially tap into is Europe but geographically speaking, the gulf region is a long detour and my guess is they are losing money flying people from most parts of Europe to Japan via their own hubs. One can see that over the past two decades, despite the Japanese economic stagnation, no airlines in Europe with large scale operations to Asia has pulled back their operations to Northeast Asia (there are isolated exceptions e.g. VS, though these are rare cases), the way that they have done in Southeast Asia for example. The same is true for Japanese airlines (though JL has scaled down slightly due to its own financial problems a few years ago).

[Edited 2015-02-05 08:27:16]
 
777way
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:34 pm

The ME3 are not catering to any destination that seek mass tourism to Africa/ME not just North east asia.

Off topic wikipedia is listing Budapest in JAL destinations with a ends on 20 July tag and a PDF ref in Japanese which in not translateable, so do they serve BUD or what?
 
B777LRF
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting robbie86 (Reply 19):
I'm booked to fly ARN-DOH-NRT, KIX-DOH-ARN in June.

That is a rather .... elaborate routing.

ARN-DOH-NRT = 18:30 hours
ARN-CPH-NRT = 13:50 hours
ARN-HEL-NRT = 11:55 hours

Then again, I once flew FRA-DXB-ICN instead of direct FRA-ICN. DXB-ICN alone takes around 10 hours, same as the direct to ICN. Add 6 hours for the flight to DXB and 3 hours in transit, and I really shouldn't be throwing any stones  
Still, had sort of a valid excuse: It was my first chance to catch a ride on the A380, and with the miles earned on the outbound I had enough to upgrade from J to F on the return.
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Clipper101
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:39 pm

Pulling out of Japan ……. Hmmmm, strange   

Didn't once-upon-a time not too far back Qatari contemplated buying Mitsubishi MRJ's for exchange of more access into Japanese market?
 
a380787
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:09 pm

I don't know what they're complaining about HND slot times. They knew those slot times from Day 1. Other than select nations with daytime HND access, everyone else faces the same horrible slot times, including Japanese carriers.

They have plenty of options of fly to NRT. If they want HND, then play in the same sandbox that everyone else does.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:58 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 38):

every carrier has a right to negotiate slot times. If they do not like theirs they have the right to make a fuss. Obviously they chose that timing since there was no other to choose from!

By saying that everyone faces the same slot time is incorrect. Hnd doesn't just open when QR lands. It's open most of the day...
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
Robbie86
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RE: Qatar Airways Considering Pulling Out Of Japan

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:23 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 36):

Yes, it is.
But for 400 € for the tickets it's worth it.  

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