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Ty134A
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:17 am

knowing the atr from loading and from the flight attitude in the videos, one might also assume it to be out of trim. i often work on atrs which are barely within the limits, and cabin crew reseat pax. and when you tell them, they don't care.

remember the attitude of the 74F in bagram?

but that is just one thought...

i also remember a captain with whom i talked about the A40 crash in thr and he said that usually one engine out is not a problem, especially on the atr, since they prefer a shallow climb, but who knows!
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BreninTW
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:21 am

Local media is reporting that the aircraft had it's most recent "safety checks" on 26 January.

Source.
 
celestar
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:53 am

As I am watching the rescue effort locally in Taiwan, I took a deeper look at the video capturing the last moments of the crash. It appears to my untrained eye of course, that the aircraft basically could not climb and appear stalling. Only at the final moments did it veer off to the left and crashed into the river. If indeed one of the propeller had feathered, it would have shown the aircraft slanting to one side which obviously, not being the case as the video showed.... Again, I am speaking not as a professional just writing out my observation.

Media reported more deaths now but intriguing as it is, still quite a number of passengers missing (around 20+) Being in Taiwan and knowing how small the place it is, any missing passengers would have been accounted for unless, part of the fuselarge is under the river which may be more fatalities there.
Oh my God, I sincerely hope that the deceased RIP.

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zeke
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:57 am

Quoting CHCalfonzo (Reply 40):

I am not sure about that, it might have clipped an aerial or the building. There seems to a change in trajectory as they pass over the building.
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FedExFlyerPHL
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:58 am

I'm watching the live feed and they are taking a bunch of people out now who did not make it. There is a large part of the fuselage underwater from what I can tell on the camera. They do have a couple large cranes, so it looks like they are planning on taking it out of the water at some point.
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F9Animal
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:02 am

Quoting celestar (Reply 52):
Media reported more deaths now but intriguing as it is, still quite a number of passengers missing (around 20+) Being in Taiwan and knowing how small the place it is, any missing passengers would have been accounted for unless, part of the fuselarge is under the river which may be more fatal

The front of the plane is destroyed, judging by the pictures. I did read that passengers were being pulled from the river downstream. Those reports didn't clarify if those found were survivors or not.
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:17 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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MayaviaERJ190
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:19 am

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 50):
knowing the atr from loading and from the flight attitude in the videos, one might also assume it to be out of trim. i often work on atrs which are barely within the limits, and cabin crew reseat pax

I get to fly on Aeromar's ( VW ) ATRs very often. I clearly know that more often than every other flight, we the pax, get shuffled around, over weight-distribution reasons. I hardly ever get my booked seat on the ATR-42s.

This is obviously a very delicate matter for these birds.

May the Lord guard the souls of those gone and bring solace to their loved ones. For the survivors, go buy a lottery ticket, now.

[Edited 2015-02-04 00:22:03]
My other plane is an A380.
 
PHX787
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:21 am

The weather looks bad. How hard was the rain falling?
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 24):
http://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152660854612934

This video is a bit higher quality...

That's one crazy video. The airplane also hit a cab before crashing into the river.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8-t3ABIQAADn3E.jpg:large
http://twitter.com/AirlineReporter/status/562859814200811520
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AY-MD11
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:31 am

Looks like it was stalling and pilots tried to do Hudson like landing turning left towards the river.
 
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:31 am

Maybe it's just an optical illusion but this photo seems to suggest the left-hand engine was not running:

http://twitter.com/airlivenet/status/562888830542688256
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BiggerJetsPlz
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:38 am

CRAZY VIDEO!

It looks like the plane is pitched up, airspeed was dropping, and the left wing stalled more than the right, causing that wing drop. What's the stall speed on an ATR with no flaps? Maybe left engine is out, pilots not paying attention to their airspeed and trying to climb too slow?
 
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:38 am

The pilot flying the aircraft had close to 5,000 flight hours (3,400 of which was on the ATR).

http://twitter.com/tohmavis/status/562889448577593345

All five crew members, including three pilots, are Taiwanese.

http://twitter.com/tohmavis/status/562889160923828224

The black boxes have been found.

http://twitter.com/airlivenet/status/562891641049325568
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drmlnr1
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:51 am

I found video footage with audio and when it hit the bridge it hit a car and gave a loud thud. I hope that all affected get answers quickly. This is such a tragedy. I agree with some of the people here that it seems like engine failure and seems that the auto feather didn't kick in. May those who have died rest in peace, those injured recover from their injuries, those missing be quickly accounted for. I apologize if that last sentence seems like a prayer, before I started writing this I prayed and used those words.

Update: we have a small miracle! A small child has been pulled from the wreck. Looks like from the picture the child was uninjured but there could be some injuries.

[Edited 2015-02-04 00:57:21]
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liquidair
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:01 am

Again, probably optical illusion... But that plane looks huge compared to what I it usually does!

It's totally incredible that anybody survived... Amazing, well done to the pilots.
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
ukair
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:03 am

shocking video, looks like the driver even had the forethought to put his hazard flashers on
 
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LAX772LR
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:10 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
The weather looks bad. How hard was the rain falling?

Doubt rain had anything to do with a crash like that.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
mila
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:14 am

Quoting ukair (Reply 66):

Just a note. The hazard lights is usually turned on automatically on newer cars when breaking hard, similar to "classic" german autobahn behaviour.
 
JBirdAV8r
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:18 am

The video makes it look like a Vmc roll into the bridge.
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coolfish1103
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:24 am

Per TransAsia Airway's facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/transasia.airways

As of 14:00 local time:

1. 13 fatalities (3 on site, 10 while en route to hospital)
2. 8 to Neihu Tri-Service General Hospital (3 in severe conditions)
3. 6 to Zhongxiao Hospital (1 in severe condition, 1 child)
4. 4 to Tri-Service General Hospital Songshan Branch, 807 (3 children)
5. 4 to Cathay General Hospital Xizhi Branch (2 in severe conditions)
6. 3 to Taipei Medical University Hospital ( 2 in severe conditions)
7. 1 to Cathay General Hospital (1 in severe condition)
8. 1 to Taiwan Adventist Hospital
9. 1 to Jen-Ai Hospital

On board:

1. 31 passengers from China (including 3 children)
2. 22 local passengers (including 1 child)
3. 5 crews

A regular maintenance was performed on January 26, 2015 for this ATR72-600 aircraft.

This aircraft was received last April, has been on duty for less than a year.
 
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:33 am

Quoting coolfish1103 (Reply 70):
This aircraft was received last April, has been on duty for less than a year.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © K.H.Yim - AHKGAP

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
bennett123
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:42 am

Looking at the pictures, the flaps seem to be retracted, given that it was 3M from take off, should they be retracted at that point.

Also looking at www.aviation-safety.net they have had 5 aircraft written off in 20 years.

According to www.airfleets.net, they 22 aircraft at present.

To lose 20% of your fleet within 20 years seems rather high.

Is there an issue at that airline, or in Taiwan generally. Just asking.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:54 am

From FR24:



Take the last points with a grain of salt. Seems they were climbing with a right turn as planned, then rolled left before crashing.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
WolvesMightFly
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:21 am

The rules are cast in 90 Mpa concrete. Don't turn into the dead engine unless you are Bob Hover.
 
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gbrazil
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:26 am

What a terrible sight. At least I hope the video helps to explain what really happened.
A318 A319 A320 A321 A330 ATR 72 737 767 777 E-175 E-190 E-195 F-100
 
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Navigator
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:34 am

Someone has probably already said this but:

1. How can an airline crew let a plane stall like this? Even if they had an Engine failure you still keep enough speed to avoid stall.

2. Is there a problem with pilot training in this specific airline?

Lets wait for further information but with this video together with FDR and Voice recorder the investigators have very good information to figure out what happened.
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moo
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:41 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 61):
Maybe it's just an optical illusion but this photo seems to suggest the left-hand engine was not running:

Again, possibly an optical illusion, but in several of the images it looks like the left hand tip of the tail plane is missing.
 
bennett123
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:50 am

I have looked at the pictures in reply 3 and reply 61.

It is a possibility
 
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Miami
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:02 am

Rescuers still working on scene:

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Buyantukhaa
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:10 am

It seems that there was no post-crash fire, that must have helped greatly to increase the chances of survival.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
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teme82
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:18 am

I've been looking at the dash cam video. And for me it seems that the pilot does last minute left turn to avoid hitting the buildings or cars. But can't recover it so the plane goes in sideways. And it seems to go down like a rock.
Flying high and low
 
GolfOscarDelta
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:19 am

I wonder if he was trying to avoid the power lines at the last second and that had anything to do with it.

You can see it at the left at 0:08-0:09 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHldguyiTXo
 
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Starlionblue
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:20 am



Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 30):
AirlineReporter.com pulled the ATC audio and "it appears that the flight called a mayday with an engine flame out."
http://www.airlinereporter.com/2015/...r72-flight-ge235-crashes-take-off/

Here's the recording in question. At 23m24s, one the pilots does indeed call, "Mayday, mayday. Engine flameout." Seems to be the last call from the plane.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/rcss/RCSS-Twr-Feb-04-2015-0230Z.mp3

[Edited 2015-02-04 03:21:17]

[Edited 2015-02-04 03:22:06]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
peterjohns
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:21 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 76):
1. How can an airline crew let a plane stall like this? Even if they had an Engine failure you still keep enough speed to avoid stall.

Well, - without wanting to seem smart- I´m very sure they would have if they would have could...


An engine failure directly after T/O (if that happens to be the case) is a very serious incident - especially on a prop or Turbo prop twin.
According to the souls on board and fuel load , it might have been fairly heavy as well.
So you are low, slow, perhaps heavy, and now the left engine loses pwr...

I don´t think you have to accuse the crew
 
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:27 am

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 84):
So you are low, slow, perhaps heavy, and now the left engine loses pwr...

Aren't aircraft designed and certified to takeoff with 1 engine?
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
AIRWALK
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:30 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 76):
How can an airline crew let a plane stall like this? Even if they had an Engine failure you still keep enough speed to avoid stall.

Not if they didn't have enough height. They may have been unable to pitch down to maintain airspeed.

From videos, the river appears to be directly after the point of contact of the bridge with no obstacles in between.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:39 am

Reports are coming in that the pilots of flight GE235 made a Mayday call declaring an engine flame-out.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/le...unt/2015/02/taipei-tranasia-crash/
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Aesma
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:39 am

Bad accident. Scary video.

Quoting celestar (Reply 52):
If indeed one of the propeller had feathered, it would have shown the aircraft slanting to one side which obviously, not being the case as the video showed....

You can correct with ailerons and rudder and fly the plane straight and level. Of course if you concentrate on that and forget to look at your speed, bad things happen.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
peterjohns
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:41 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 85):

Well, yes and no I would say. There are, of course, theoretical calculations, based on the ICAO Standard atmosphere, which result in the design and performance figures of an aircraft.
These calculations then lead to T/O Performance Speeds and distances for the handbooks, as well as rudder size for directional control e.g. in the actual design.

Again ,of course, an aircraft manufacturer will take the numbers in an ideal Environment, just as laid down by ICAO.

So, if you (or your plane, or your weather, or your weight and balance) don´t react immeadiatly according to the book, you´re in trouble.
 
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Francoflier
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:41 am

Quoting liquidair (Reply 65):
Amazing, well done to the pilots.

I wouldn't say that too soon...

Quoting WolvesMightFly (Reply 74):
The rules are cast in 90 Mpa concrete. Don't turn into the dead engine unless you are Bob Hover.

There's no such rule. You can very well turn into the dead engine as long as you maintain your speed and keep the aircraft from slipping towards the inoperative engine with the proper amount of rudder.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
phatfarmlines
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:53 am

In driver's ed, I'm always reminded by the teacher explaining that there are certain accidents that cannot be avoided. The taxicab ahead of the vehicle with the dashcam was one such case. I bet the taxicab didn't even see the plane coming.
 
vfw614
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:54 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 76):
1. How can an airline crew let a plane stall like this? Even if they had an Engine failure you still keep enough speed to avoid stall.

We have not seen what happened before the video starts. Given that the plane was losing height over densely built-up area, it would not surprise me if the pilot flying executed some rather unconventional manouevres to avoid hitting high-rise buildings. And to give him credit, he avoided buildings and (almost) the bridge and made it into the river - in every other scenario, all on board would now be dead and probably also quite a few people on the ground.
 
JU068
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:56 am

Do we know if the pilots made it? If they did it would make the investigation much easier...
 
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:56 am

A high-res video is now available:

http://youtu.be/hDshs7trY-I
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
na
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:59 am

Quoting moo (Reply 77):
Again, possibly an optical illusion, but in several of the images it looks like the left hand tip of the tail plane is missing.

Looks like the tailplane hit the top of a building. You can see an abrupt direction change of the plane when it passes the rooftop indicating it slightly touched it.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 85):
Aren't aircraft designed and certified to takeoff with 1 engine?

I thought so too. Good it wasnt a 77W! Imagine that!
 
liquidair
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:03 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 90):
I wouldn't say that too soon...

Point taken, but it seems extremely lucky otherwise!

With regards to the image of the tail plane tip missing- sometimes digital videos/images throw up artifacts to homogenize what you're seeing. I say that because it seems to reappear later on... Then again, I've only seen it on my phone, so it could be that.

RIP to the victims, I just hope they didn't succumb to drowning. I remember an incident a while back where the seat belts were counterproductive.
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
macc
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 94):
A high-res video is now available:

http://youtu.be/hDshs7trY-I

It always puzzles me how people just move on.
It would have been my first to stop in front the debris to avoid others run over them, check with the taxi driver and see what became of the plane.
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
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Starlionblue
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 85):

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 84):
So you are low, slow, perhaps heavy, and now the left engine loses pwr...

Aren't aircraft designed and certified to takeoff with 1 engine?

Well, not all. In many, if not most, light twins, you abort if you have an engine failure before rotation.

Having said that, we're talking turboprops and certainly they can take-off with one engine if the engine failure happens beyond the decision speed. However that isn't to say the procedure has large performance margins in a plane near MTOW.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 90):
Quoting WolvesMightFly (Reply 74):
The rules are cast in 90 Mpa concrete. Don't turn into the dead engine unless you are Bob Hover.

There's no such rule. You can very well turn into the dead engine as long as you maintain your speed and keep the aircraft from slipping towards the inoperative engine with the proper amount of rudder.

  
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
vfw614
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:10 pm

Quoting na (Reply 95):
Looks like the tailplane hit the top of a building. You can see an abrupt direction change of the plane when it passes the rooftop indicating it slightly touched it.

At sec. 4, I do not see any hard contact, If at all, the aft fuselage (rather than the tailplane) scraped the top of the building, but apparently not hard enough to tear off anything.

One explanation could be that the pilot was trying to make a left turn as he was unable to make a proper ditching in the river because of the angle of approach and he would have been heading towards buildings on the other side of the river if he had continued straight - whereas further to his left there was a park-like area.

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