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kaichinshih
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:13 pm

In case anyone is interested
Here is a live YouTube video of the crash site
Currently the rescuers are preparing to raise the wreckage, stuck in the mud on the bottom of the river, in order to pull out bodies.
http://youtu.be/T8GmxMGCDh4
 
bueb0g
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:17 pm

In the latest video just posted, it looks as if the aircraft is gliding when the video starts, and then stalls. Perhaps a dual failure, and the crew didn't have enough energy to get over the bridge, stalled trying? Definitely does not look like a developed stall when the vid starts...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDshs7trY-I&feature=youtu.be

Right prop does appear to be turning though.
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Aesma
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting liquidair (Reply 96):
I remember an incident a while back where the seat belts were counterproductive.

Aren't you rather thinking of the life vests ?
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kaichinshih
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:25 pm


WRECKAGE BEING LIFTED FROM RIVER
For live footage refer to this LIVE YouTube video
http://youtu.be/T8GmxMGCDh4
 
RickNRoll
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:27 pm

It looks to me like it was already losing height, even when it was flying level.
 
liquidair
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:28 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 102):

You're probably right- my memory is generally useless!

Maybe the seatbelt incident was related to fire... Not sure. Just remember the story of an old woman whose seatbelt jammed, like with others on that flight.
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s5daw
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:31 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 76):
How can an airline crew let a plane stall like this? Even if they had an Engine failure you still keep enough speed to avoid stall.

What if both engines were affected? Clearly they couldn't even maintain the altitude, let alone climb.
What if pilots did an excellent job, avoiding all buildings - saving lives in progess - and aimed for the water landing, only to be screwed by the fate and stall virtually seconds before ditching?


I much prefer airports which are away from the cities, because they leave much more space for manoeuvring in cases like this...
 
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Ty134A
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:41 pm

it really seems that the pilot tried to avoid the buildings and just in the last moment of making it into the river lost lift on the left wing. man, he nearly made it....

one might think that he was countering the loss of the left prop and thus in the last moments faced an aileron reversal (low speed).

again, judging from the videos, he nearly made it!
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Ty134A
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting liquidair (Reply 105):
Maybe the seatbelt incident was related to fire... Not sure. Just remember the story of an old woman whose seatbelt jammed, like with others on that flight.

i believe you refer to the BA 732 that burned on the ground (after a rejected take off???). eye witness said that people desperately tried to open their belts by pressing onto the locks. this was due to the stress situation and the usual behavior with car belts, which can be opened by pressing onto them. acft belts need to be lifted. unfortunately very many surviving passengers say that the most challenging thing for them was opening the belt against the usual trained "workflow". and in these extreme situations some fail to do so....

on a sidenote, i was on a TU3 once, which had belts that could be opened by pressing onto them, and most passengers were challenged opening them after we were at the parking stand.... so probably depends on the situation!

Quoting Aesma (Reply 102):
Aren't you rather thinking of the life vests ?

there was a case on a ditching atr, and some of the initial survivors inflated their lifejackets in the plane and couldn't exit. as a result they drowned.
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vfw614
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 107):
it really seems that the pilot tried to avoid the buildings and just in the last moment of making it into the river lost lift on the left wing. man, he nearly made it....

Although it must be said that he was approaching the river in a 45° or so angle, so he wasn't lined up for a proper ditching - and the width of the river does not really allow a proper ditching with that angle of approach. If he would have been higher, he would have impacted the river bank on the other side of the river - or even worse, buildings.
 
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 94):

This video is very telling.
I believe the pilots saved that aircraft from hitting those buildings.
As they approach and/or are over the buildings, the wings are level, but the sink rate level is already high and they're likely bleeding any speed and lift that they had....then the aircraft rolls into the flamed out engine side.
Tough.
 
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:58 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 109):
Although it must be said that he was approaching the river in a 45° or so angle, so he wasn't lined up for a proper ditching - and the width of the river does not really allow a proper ditching with that angle of approach. If he would have been higher, he would have impacted the river bank on the other side of the river - or even worse, buildings.

he probably did not have a lot of options to choose from....
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
AB4,AB6,318,313,342,343,345,346,712,703,722,732,735,741,742,743,74L,744,752,753,763,772,77W,J31,F50,F70,100,ATP,
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vfw614
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:04 pm

Of course. The only other option for a controlled crash landing other than the river was an area to the left of the flight path with no buildings.
 
mark2fly1034
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:10 pm

Its being pulled out of the water now
 
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:13 pm

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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:44 pm

fo

Quoting ranold76 (Reply 110):
I believe the pilots saved that aircraft from hitting those buildings.
As they approach and/or are over the buildings, the wings are level, but the sink rate level is already high and they're likely bleeding any speed and lift that they had....then the aircraft rolls into the flamed out engine side.
Tough.

for me it seems that they were clear of the buildings, but sink rate too high and probably an intended final turn to the left to catch the river, but without sufficient lift.
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 113):
Its being pulled out of the water now

Impressive sight.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9AMH4lIMAQLlo2.jpg:large
http://twitter.com/AviationSafety/
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:57 pm

The pilots had lost control of of the aircraft before it started banking.
What some see as a last second escape maneuver to avoid buildings was simply the left wing stalling and inducing the irrecoverable roll.

The right wing kept on flying a while longer as the prop wash helped it generate a little extra lift.
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na
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:06 pm

I have BBC running in my office and I hear/see the terrible news for the third time in an hour, and for the third time the news lady speaks of a "jet having crashed". Cant even the most serious stations employ experts? Obviously neither the news reader, nor the director, nor anyone else sitting there knows what a jet is.
 
Airspeed772
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 117):

The pilots had lost control of of the aircraft before it started banking.
It appears the Flying Pilot (FP) Multi Engine Training did not kick in as it should have resulting in this deadly out-come.

[Edited 2015-02-04 06:09:01]
Airspeed772
 
Chaostheory
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:21 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 84):

An engine failure directly after T/O (if that happens to be the case) is a very serious incident - especially on a prop or Turbo prop twin.
Quoting peterjohns (Reply 84):
According to the souls on board and fuel load , it might have been fairly heavy as well.
So you are low, slow, perhaps heavy, and now the left engine loses pwr...

I don´t think you have to accuse the crew

Not an issue with the ATR, especially the ones with the newer engines.

They have additional power available on the remaining engine should they have an engine failure. Similar to the power reserve on some Embraer aircraft.

Take off engine cuts are still probably the most widely practiced failure scenarios in the sim.
 
Airspeed772
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 10):

It will be also interesting to find out how was the aircraft loaded with baggage or freight.
Airspeed772
 
Airspeed772
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 72):

Looking at the pictures, the flaps seem to be retracted, given that it was 3M from take off, should they be retracted at that point.

Also looking at www.aviation-safety.net they have had 5 aircraft written off in 20 years.

According to www.airfleets.net, they 22 aircraft at present.

To lose 20% of your fleet within 20 years seems rather high.

Is there an issue at that airline, or in Taiwan generally. Just asking

Adequate Pilot Training will be a major part of the answer to you question:
Airspeed772
 
peterjohns
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 120):
Not an issue with the ATR, especially the ones with the newer engines.



Take off engine cuts are still probably the most widely practiced failure scenarios in the sim.


Well there was obviously an issue with this one!??


And still it went wrong.... Supposing it was an engine failure at all.

I must wonder about that second video- the guy just continues on driving!!  Wow!

In Germany that guy could face charges for not stopping and giving first aid in an accident. Road accident that is- I don´t know if a plane crashing onto the road qualifies...  
 
rcair1
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:02 pm

Quoting celestar (Reply 52):
If indeed one of the propeller had feathered, it would have shown the aircraft slanting to one side which obviously, not being the case as the video showed.... Again, I am speaking not as a professional just writing out my observation.

No - at least not dramatically. You will yaw toward the dead engine, and may have a bit of roll, but your wing will not drop - unless it stalls.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 86):
Not if they didn't have enough height. They may have been unable to pitch down to maintain airspeed.

Single engine, with a feathered prop, you should be able to climb.

Looking at the high res video:
- I cannot tell if the #1 prop is turning at speed or not
- The aircraft is in, what appears to be, a controlled descent as it enters the frame. It could have been stalled, but it is hard to tell.
- The sudden roll left, to me, is indicative of a left wing stall - sudden loss of lift on the left wing. I do not think it indicates any evasive maneuver by a pilot. At that proximity to the ground a pilot would be going for a wings level, nose up attitude. If you look at the google maps images posted - there are no buildings or obstacles in his path to be turning away from. If the pilot were trying for the river - would have turned right, not left.

The ATR should climb out on a single engine if the failed engine is feathered. If that failed engine is NOT feathered, I'm not so sure. Props in a non-feathered condition act like speed brakes - that is why you can slow quickly in a turboprop. If the auto-feather fails, and/or the feather system failed and the pilots could not feather the prop, or they did not for some other reason - I think SE continued flight is problematic at best.

Perhaps an ATR pilot could comment on that.
rcair1
 
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:04 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 92):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 76):1. How can an airline crew let a plane stall like this? Even if they had an Engine failure you still keep enough speed to avoid stall.
We have not seen what happened before the video starts. Given that the plane was losing height over densely built-up area, it would not surprise me if the pilot flying executed some rather unconventional manouevres to avoid hitting high-rise buildings. And to give him credit, he avoided buildings and (almost) the bridge and made it into the river - in every other scenario, all on board would now be dead and probably also quite a few people on the ground.

I highly doubt that what you are saying is what happened. I think this plane was stalled during the whole video. Pilot training Always emphasize that pilot should keep speed in order to keep the plane flyable. I Think those pilots dropped below Minimum Steady Flight Speed. That is the main problem here.

ATR-72:s are flyable on one Engine if pilots follow proper precedures.
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Okie
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting Airspeed772 (Reply 119):
It appears the Flying Pilot (FP) Multi Engine Training did not kick in as it should have resulting in this deadly out-come.

The aircraft should be able to climb on one engine. Just not very fast.
It is all about energy management. Cleaning up the plane decreases drag.
We will probably never know exactly what the pilots were thinking.

I would want to believe the pilots were trading speed for altitude to clear the buildings and were hoping to make the river to regain control of the situation by gaining speed then altitude with no obstacles or ditch if all else failed.

Okie
 
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 124):
At that proximity to the ground a pilot would be going for a wings level, nose up attitude. If you look at the google maps images posted - there are no buildings or obstacles in his path to be turning away from. If the pilot were trying for the river - would have turned right, not left.

I'm wondering on that actually. If you watch the videos there is a high tension power line in line with the original direction of flight. I wonder in the pilot didn't try to turn to clear it over the river and lost too much speed over the left wing.
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Whiteguy
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 63):
The pilot flying the aircraft had close to 5,000 flight hours (3,400 of which was on the ATR).

So they already figured out which pilot was flying???
 
vfw614
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 125):
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 92):
We have not seen what happened before the video starts. Given that the plane was losing height over densely built-up area, it would not surprise me if the pilot flying executed some rather unconventional manouevres to avoid hitting high-rise buildings. And to give him credit, he avoided buildings and (almost) the bridge and made it into the river - in every other scenario, all on board would now be dead and probably also quite a few people on the ground.

I highly doubt that what you are saying is what happened. I think this plane was stalled during the whole video. Pilot training Always emphasize that pilot should keep speed in order to keep the plane flyable

I was referring to what happened before the video starts, not to the last few seconds of the flight that we see in the video.
 
Redd
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 88):
You can correct with ailerons and rudder and fly the plane straight and level. Of course if you concentrate on that and forget to look at your speed, bad things happen.

I would be curious to hear from someone with experience on the ATR, I have only driven Cessna's and in those during a stall the ailerons are to be kept level as they can induce a snap roll if used to correct. Using the rudder to keep the plane level in a stall is the correct procedure. I wonder if it's the same on ATR's.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 94):
A high-res video is now available:
Quoting Airspeed772 (Reply 122):
Looking at the pictures, the flaps seem to be retracted, given that it was 3M from take off, should they be retracted at that point.

In the high res video at :07 KarelXWB provided it looks like the flap on the right wing is slightly extended. That might be a deflected aileron though...
 
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:21 pm

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
danman132x
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:25 pm

RIP to all the souls lost onboard  
 
questions
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:27 pm

Please explain: "engine is feathered"; "feathered the prop"; etc.

Thanks!
 
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KarelXWB
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 133):
Please explain: "engine is feathered"; "feathered the prop"; etc.

See the following illustrations:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/w9g178.jpg
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richierich
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 131):
Now the cockpit is being recovered:

I'm assuming the bodies of the flight crew are still in this tangled mess. That's a sobering thought.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 125):
I highly doubt that what you are saying is what happened. I think this plane was stalled during the whole video. Pilot training Always emphasize that pilot should keep speed in order to keep the plane flyable. I Think those pilots dropped below Minimum Steady Flight Speed. That is the main problem here.

Based on the video, I would agree with you. I feel like this aircraft was out of control during the entire time it was visible in the dashcam.
Must have been a terrifying few seconds as it fell to the bridge and then to the river. I hate to think about it.

My prayers go to the victim's families and for the injured to make a quick recovery.
None shall pass!!!!
 
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Navigator
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 129):
I was referring to what happened before the video starts, not to the last few seconds of the flight that we see in the video.

This does not change my view on this. This plane stalled at some Point Before this video started. And pilots typically should not enter a stall just because an Engine failure.

And this plane descended fast in stalled condition. There is no way the pilots steered this plane to avoid anything at all. They had their hands full trying to avoid a complete disaster after an Engine failed. And with the right training, given that this was their main problem, they should have been able to fly back and land on one engnine.

It is possible that if procedures were followed and pilots had the right training and skills this should never have happened. It may be as simple that they simply dropped below the prescribed speed while preoccupied with the Engine failure. Then things happened very fast. At such low altitude after take off there is not much you can do to recover once you allowed the plane to stall.

The plane could easily have hit Buildings. It was just pure luck it didnt. The pilots had nothing to do with that plane ending up where it did. Pure luck.

I think this airline may have a serious problem in their flight training department... Very sad...
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LTC8K6
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:38 pm

"At the press conference, it was also revealed that the turboprop previously had a faulty left engine which was replaced in Macau. The ATR 72 was powered by Pratt & Whitney PW100-127M engines."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...our-minutes-after-take-off-408675/
 
Whiteguy
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 135):
Based on the video, I would agree with you. I feel like this aircraft was out of control during the entire time it was visible in the dashcam.
Must have been a terrifying few seconds as it fell to the bridge and then to the river. I hate to think about it.

I respectfully disagree, watching one if the Dash can videos from a vehicle further back it looks like the nose is pitched up just before the wing drops. Just after clearing the buildings before the bridge the nose raises. Almost seems like who ever was flying was trying to clear the bridge. In doing so the speed dropped and left wing stalled, hence the roll to them left. I think the aircraft was is control to that point, somewhat. It's a fine line to be on speed during an engine failure when your hot and heavy.

[Edited 2015-02-04 08:07:54]
 
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zkojq
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:46 pm

Photo of the wreckage from the expressway:


You can clearly see where the wing clipped it. The driver and passenger of the taxi are ok.

Here is an alternative view of the crash site. Note that the power-lines seem to have been avoided.
http://i.imgur.com/d6ImNdJ.jpg
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zeke
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting Airspeed772 (Reply 122):


Looking at the pictures, the flaps seem to be retracted, given that it was 3M from take off, should they be retracted at that point.


Flaps are retracted once the aircraft reaches the engine out acceleration altitude. If the failed engine is not feathered, it will take a long time to reach that altitude. From what I saw, it looked like they were flaps 15 still.
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rcair1
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 133):

Please explain: "engine is feathered"; "feathered the prop"; etc.

The illustration is nice, but some explanation may help.
- In this aircraft - the propeller can change pitch - from steep to fine, to flat, to reverse. Think of a screw - you have fine thread screws, and course thread screws. That is what the pitch of the prop is.
- When an engine fails, if you do nothing, the prop turns into a windmill. They call this state windmilling. The relative wind from the aircraft moving through the air spins the prop which spins the gearbox and engine.
- This causes and enormous amount of drag - which slows the plane down.
- To combat that, you 'feather' the prop. You adjust its pitch so the blades are turned "straight into' the wind. The propeller stops turning and the drag decreases.
- It is critical in a engine failure on a twin to feather the prop to combat this drag.
- Most turboprop twins (and I assume the ATR 72) have auto feather systems that will automatically feather the prop in this situation - but even if that does not work - the pilots should do it.
- Prop pitch controls have accumulators or some other mechanism that allows feathering even when the engine fails and you do not have oil pressure do to it.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):
And this plane descended fast in stalled condition.
Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):
This plane stalled at some Point Before this video started.


I don't think you can state it was stalled. You can say it was descending wings level. Stalled or not - we do not know.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):
And pilots typically should not enter a stall just because an Engine failure.

We do not know
- if they were stalled
- if there were other problems with the aircraft.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):
It is possible that if procedures were followed and pilots had the right training and skills this should never have happened.

You do not know this because you do not know what failures the pilots were facing. Yes - if they have a simple single engine failure on and ATR-72 they should be able to climb out and return to the airport. This is a common training scenario.
They did not.
That could mean they failed in their task, or there were other problems they were facing.

Drawing conclusions based on this video and media reports is not supportable.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):
I think this airline may have a serious problem in their flight training department...

You have no evidence if this is true or not. Maybe, maybe not.
We should learn much more - and we need to because what is important is that the failure be identified so we can avoid it in the future.
rcair1
 
peterjohns
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:00 pm

Looking at this very last picture one can surely say at least some people were very lucky to have survived. Had the plane gone down a few seconds earlier or later , it would have hit the town.

Not wanting to be disrespectful- there was a comedy show on TV here with an actress playing a german newsspokeswoman said:

" It was clearly a pilot mistake. Everything else would be pure speculation.."



I´ll leave it at that until more of the background to this sad accident becomes clear.
 
Rara
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:04 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 138):
I respectfully disagree, watching one if the Dash can videos from a vehicle further back it looks like the nose is fixed just before the wing drops. Just after clearing the buildings before the bridge the nose raises. Almost seems like who ever was flying was trying to clear the bridge. In doing so the speed dropped and left wing stalled, hence the roll to them left. I think the aircraft was is control to that point, somewhat. It's a fine line to be on speed during an engine failure when your hot and heavy.

I also think that one the video footage we have seen so far, the aircraft is stalled at all times. I'm not an expert on the ATR-72, but the angle of attack seems far to high for the aircraft to be in its intended flight envelope. Remember that you still have some degree of control in a stalled aircraft, you can e.g. still influence the bank angle.

To me, the talk of pilots heroically avoiding buildings and aiming for the river seems to be wishful thinking. By the looks of it, they stalled the aircraft at some point during the flight, and everything after that was just a steep descent with minimal forward speed.
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Navigator
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 141):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):And this plane descended fast in stalled condition.Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):This plane stalled at some Point Before this video started.

I don't think you can state it was stalled. You can say it was descending wings level. Stalled or not - we do not know.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):And pilots typically should not enter a stall just because an Engine failure.
We do not know
- if they were stalled
- if there were other problems with the aircraft.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):It is possible that if procedures were followed and pilots had the right training and skills this should never have happened.
You do not know this because you do not know what failures the pilots were facing. Yes - if they have a simple single engine failure on and ATR-72 they should be able to climb out and return to the airport. This is a common training scenario.
They did not.
That could mean they failed in their task, or there were other problems they were facing.

Drawing conclusions based on this video and media reports is not supportable.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 136):I think this airline may have a serious problem in their flight training department...
You have no evidence if this is true or not. Maybe, maybe not.
We should learn much more - and we need to because what is important is that the failure be identified so we can avoid it in the future.

Well now what I have said is based on what I have seen so far.

There is no need for you to say that we dont know for sure because that is the case in all accidents like this when the investigation is not finished yet.

But I can assure you that my speculation here is valid and probably as Close anyone with Aviation experience can get right now.

It is stalled for sure because otherwise it would stay airborne... No pilot deliberately crashes a plane.

And remember this is my view right now on what I think has happened.

Pilot error or not this is sad endeed.
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D L X
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:19 pm

So, why no explosion?

(That could be data, I think.)
 
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moo
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:24 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 144):
No pilot deliberately crashes a plane.

Unfortunately, that's been dis-proven on a few occasions  
 
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Navigator
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 143):
I also think that one the video footage we have seen so far, the aircraft is stalled at all times. I'm not an expert on the ATR-72, but the angle of attack seems far to high for the aircraft to be in its intended flight envelope. Remember that you still have some degree of control in a stalled aircraft, you can e.g. still influence the bank angle.

To me, the talk of pilots heroically avoiding buildings and aiming for the river seems to be wishful thinking. By the looks of it, they stalled the aircraft at some point during the flight, and everything after that was just a steep descent with minimal forward speed.

Exactly my view. You are probably spot on here.

I forgot to say that the attitude of the plane also indicates it was in a deep stall. An ATR-72 looking like that in that attitude and still descending fast is stalled for sure!!
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ANITIX87
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 145):
So, why no explosion?

Does water explode where you live? It landed in a river, there's not going to be an explosion, especially if the wing lands first and makes the entry smoother than it would otherwise be.

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pvjin
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 1

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:31 pm

Interesting how this is the 4th ATR 72 this particular airline has lost since 1995. That's 19% of all ATR 72 hull losses and 23.5% of all ATR's Transasia Airways has ever operated according to aviation safety database and airfleets.


http://aviation-safety.net/database/types/ATR-72/losses

http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Transasia%20Airways.htm

Certainly not an airline I would like to fly with.

[Edited 2015-02-04 08:31:54]
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