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bnatraveler
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Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:24 am

The previous thread Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei (by kaichinshih Feb 3 2015 in Civil Aviation) was too long to load. Please continue your discussions in this thread.

[Edited 2015-02-04 18:25:59]
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:28 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 264):
At the time. But they're 10 years old (March 2005). Thank you for finding them and taking the time to ask - this is the kind of basic info that's needed to decipher what may have happened. Zeke may have access to current charts.

My quick cull of the ATC comms didn't turn up the SID they were flying, but I may be wrong.

My company doesn't fly there so we don't have any Jepps or Lido access.

However, most countries do post their charts services online.

The ones relevant to this discussion can be found here:

http://eaip.caa.gov.tw:10000/search/...query=rcss&results=50&filter=false

Songshan:

http://eaip.caa.gov.tw/eaip/history/.../html/eAIP/RC-AD-2.RCSS-en-TW.html

The likely relevant SID chart:

http://eaip.caa.gov.tw/eaip/history/2015-01-22/graphics/86118.pdf

Obstacle chart A:

http://eaip.caa.gov.tw/eaip/history/2015-01-22/graphics/81416.pdf

Obstacle chart B:

http://eaip.caa.gov.tw/eaip/history/2015-01-22/graphics/81418.pdf

Duplicate post from the end of previous thread.

Charts of the aerodome so worthy of repost.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:34 am

Quoting rcair1,reply=255 in previous thread:
According to some more familiar to the ATR 72 than I (I'm not familiar at all) - yes, engine failure where you cannot feather the failed prop is "problematic". I'm not sure it is fatal.

How *problematic* depends on the propeller pitch. If it works as adverticed, then no big problem, but....

Here are a few details about the so called "Kalmar Q400 incident" in 2006, which I linked in reply #249:

They were on approach when they got on overspeed indication on propeller #2 with both engines at flight idle. It was like flying into a wall. They went from 4000 to 2000 feet and no air speed in seconds.

The PF (PIC) recovered by applying "emergency power" to engine #1, which he kept until touch down.

The Q400 PW150 engine on the Q400 has in normal operation 4500 HP - called 90%. When an engine is shut down, the other engine FADEC automatically changes to 100% = 5000 HP. Manually applied emergency power = 125% or 6300 HP.

They touched down 60 feet inside the runway, 7.2 degrees pitch up, way below Vref, slamming down at 1.55 G.

The PNF (FO), a rather junior lady, had proposed to shut down #2 and feather, but the PIC , a 61 years old DC-8 veteran, ignored her call.

The ATC controller watched it all from the tower, and he had already called the fire men even BEFORE they "landed" - "send all you have, they are going down", he was quoted.

Luckily it ended well. Nobody got hurt, and even the plane could fly again after a propeller control unit repair, and reviced check list were trained with the crews. But it was a close call.

I'm not indicating that this is the reason for this TransAisa accident - we will see in the report.

But sure this is more than a single engine failure. Some three years ago a Cimber Air ATR-72-200 spit out most of one HP turbine right after takeoff at CPH. The crew shut down that engine, feathered the propeller, climbed to a holding area, burned fuel for an hour to reduce weight, then made an eventless single engine landing.

And that old ATR-72-200 has less powerful engines than this new ATR-72-600.

[Edited 2015-02-04 18:41:28]
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Passedv1
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting rcair1:
Rapid descent - yes, 'extremely slow' forward speed - no. At least the FR data published that it has a ground speed that is in the neighborhood of the stall speed. Of course, ground speed is not airspeed and does not related to stalling.


I'll agree that we'll have to wait for the data to be sure of the exact point that the airplane enters a stall, however, that is what a stalled airplane looks like. The only way an ATR (an airplane known to have anemic ailerons) generates a roll rate that fast at an airspeed that slow is by having its wing in a stalled condition. Call it a snap-roll or a spin, that airplane was stalled.
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 1):

Thank you.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:09 am

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 3):
The only way an ATR (an airplane known to have anemic ailerons) generates a roll rate that fast at an airspeed that slow is by having its wing in a stalled condition. Call it a snap-roll or a spin, that airplane was stalled.

Sure you are right. I have seen an ATR make a 360 deg. barrel roll with full aileron deflection at cruising speed (a "Victory roll" after an training flight before an air show). Its roll rate was considerably slower than the last seconds of this TransAsia plane.

There is absolutely no doubt that it was stalled, at least on the left wing.
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bueb0g
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:14 am

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 3):
The only way an ATR (an airplane known to have anemic ailerons) generates a roll rate that fast at an airspeed that slow is by having its wing in a stalled condition. Call it a snap-roll or a spin, that airplane was stalled.

I don't think anyone (at least not RCair) is stating that the aircraft was not stalled when it rolled, or that it was in controlled flight. The stall/no stall debate centres around the aircraft's flightpaths directly leading up to the wing drop. The flight path and the sudden wing drop lead me to believe that the a/c was not stalled until it almost reached the bridge, at which point it did stall, left wing first, hence the roll. As already stated, VMC and stall speed were so close here that I don't think the distinction is too important.
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
The Q400 PW150 engine on the Q400 has in normal operation 4500 HP - called 90%. When an engine is shut down, the other engine FADEC automatically changes to 100% = 5000 HP. Manually applied emergency power = 125% or 6300 HP.

That's great info and just shocking that incident happened and that an engine could produce that much power.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
Luckily it ended well. Nobody got hurt, and even the plane could fly again after a propeller control unit repair, and reviced check list were trained with the crews. But it was a close call.

Amazing.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 3):
however, that is what a stalled airplane looks like.

Yeah I saw the dash cam and it looked like a deep stall to me. It was quite shocking and in a deep stall like that its going to flop around on one side eventually.
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 6):
The flight path and the sudden wing drop lead me to believe that the a/c was not stalled until it almost reached the bridge, at which point it did stall, left wing first, hence the roll.

Like most people on here, I've viewed the 'last-phase 90-degree bank' many times. But it's only just occurred to me that, had the pilot not banked, he was so low that he would have hit either the lamp standards lining the road, or quite a big sign gantry directly in his path.

Causes me to wonder whether, at first, he felt reasonably confident that he had enough height left to clear the structures; realised close in that he didn't; and had to bank at 90 degrees, very late on, to avoid them?
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting Nav30 (Reply 8):
Causes me to wonder whether, at first, he felt reasonably confident that he had enough height left to clear the structures; realised close in that he didn't; and had to bank at 90 degrees, very late on, to avoid them?

It seems unlikely that he could do such a bank intentionally?

What sort of authority did the control surfaces have right then?
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:55 am

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 3):

Two accidents same type aircraft, same airline in 6 months, I see a big deficit in Pilots skills and Training !
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:03 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 4):

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 264):
At the time. But they're 10 years old (March 2005). Thank you for finding them and taking the time to ask - this is the kind of basic info that's needed to decipher what may have happened. Zeke may have access to current charts.

My quick cull of the ATC comms didn't turn up the SID they were flying, but I may be wrong.

The date is their effective date, it doesn't means they're not using them today. If the procedures change there would be a new chart issued with a new date.

Also many airports have a single engine procedure in the event of a failure. It could be as simple as straight ahead or a turn left or right at a certain height or distance from a point. Usually the procedure stars once you hit 1000 ft agl. Some of these procedures are a lot more complex.
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:05 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 9):
It seems unlikely that he could do such a bank intentionally?

The alternative would have been to hit the light-columns or the gantry, and crash anyway? He'd have had full control of the ailerons, the speed was more than adequate for that. But, of course, he couldn't avoid losing even MORE height, and the port wing hit the bridge roadway itself; and that unfortunate car.........
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:07 am

Well, according to local media, the CAA has now grounded the entire fleet of ATR-72 in Taiwan for "safety checks."

I'm putting this down to the government's need to be seen to be doing "something" (anything!) in the wake of two accidents. GE has been instructed to complete its checks by CoB today and B7 has been given until CoB tomorrow.

Source.
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:25 am

Could the engine have had a destructive failure perhaps damaging the hydraulics or other controls on the left wing ?
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:43 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
They were on approach when they got on overspeed indication on propeller #2 with both engines at flight idle. It was like flying into a wall. They went from 4000 to 2000 feet and no air speed in seconds.

Yep - a turboprop in flat pitch is a big brake.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 2):
But sure this is more than a single engine failure.

I tend to agree - but I'm not willing to say 'sure'. Like most a/c accidents - I suspect this will be the result of a chain of events, not a single event.

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 3):
Call it a snap-roll or a spin, that airplane was stalled.

A snap roll is basically a short horizontal spin induced by rudder input and recovered after you complete the roll(s).
The difference is that a snap roll is an aerobatic maneuver done on purpose and a spin is (usually) accidental.
And yes - I've done both. I had a couple of old school instructors that felt stalls, spins and aerobatics was part of learning to fly. First time I spun an a/c it was a 152 and I was on my first phase check (about 10 hrs total time).

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 5):
There is absolutely no doubt that it was stalled, at least on the left wing.

Before accident investigations are complete - I tend to shy away from statements like "I'm sure" or "no doubt", but based on the video I do think the roll was induced by stalling of the left wing with the right wing producing lift (not stalled). In fact, it is just that which makes me think the a/c was not 'stalled' prior to that - but I'm not "sure" about either statement.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 6):
The flight path and the sudden wing drop lead me to believe that the a/c was not stalled until it almost reached the bridge, at which point it did stall, left wing first, hence the roll

   I agree. It leads me to believe that. But that is different than "knowing"

It occurs to me that we may be assuming people here know what a spin is - aerodynamically - which may not be true.

Here is a very simplistic description.
A spin occurs when 1 wing is stalled and the other is not. The stalled wing produces no lift - the flying wing produces lift - so the aircraft rapidly rotates as the flying wing lifts and the stalled wing does not.
To recover from a spin, you must break the stall on the stalled wing - that stops the rotation - then you recover from the dive. (this is very simplistic of course).

A spin and a spiral dive - or any kind of dive - is very different.
A spinning a/c will descend at "stall speed' - if it gets much faster than that - the stalled wing starts flying and you are now in a dive.
rcair1
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting Nav30 (Reply 12):
The alternative would have been to hit the light-columns or the gantry, and crash anyway? He'd have had full control of the ailerons, the speed was more than adequate for that. But, of course, he couldn't avoid losing even MORE height, and the port wing hit the bridge roadway itself; and that unfortunate car.........

I think I read that the ATR-72 can't roll that quickly intentionally?

That may have just been an opinion, though?
 
F9Animal
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:42 am

If you look at the still photos as the wing impacts the bridge, I see damage to the left horizontal stabilizer. Could a bird strike have caused this, or perhaps hitting a building?
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LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:15 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 17):
If you look at the still photos as the wing impacts the bridge, I see damage to the left horizontal stabilizer. Could a bird strike have caused this, or perhaps hitting a building?

Look at this HD version full screen, and see if you see anything regarding the HS.

http://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1053519784674205
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:19 am

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/...a-crash-dash-cam-video.tvbs-taiwan

HD video from the closer vehicle.

It looks like the left HS hits one of the poles on the left side of the highway.

Just before the highway, it looks intact, and when it's over the middle of the road, it looks like a chunk of it is missing.

[Edited 2015-02-04 23:22:22]
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:26 am

Yes, left HS clips a pole on the left side of the highway, and is damaged.
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:05 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 17):

In the previous thread I commented that I thought the aircraft may have hit an aerial or building before it started rolling as the trajectory seemed to change to me.
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F9Animal
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:08 am



This is the photo I was looking at. It looks like it has damage. Perhaps this shot was captured after hitting the pole? I have played the video so many times, and I just don't see the horizontal stabilizer hitting a pole. But, I am using my smartphone to view the videos, and I am not wearing my glasses!

[Edited 2015-02-05 00:15:52]
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:15 am

I have read some transcripts with speed/ altitude etc. I doubt this information can be reliable. Can anyone comment on this.

But this plane was most probably in a stall during the whole video and finally entered a spin. Anyone that has stalled a plane in training knows this is the way it can look from the outside.

The attitude of this ATR-72 is very nose high. This supports the theory that is was stalled all the time. Noone steered the plane during the video, it was pretty much put in a direction Before and there it Went. There was no attempt to avoid anything, just pure luck.

But:

Why couldnt the pilots keep the plane flying on one Engine?? This is the major question here. All pilots are trained to do this. The gear was retracted so there was no drag.

Fuel starvation? Both Engines lost Power? Pilot unable to keep correct attitude and speed?
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 23):
Both Engines lost Power?

Even if just one engine failed during takeoff/climb it´s quite a challenge to land an ATR safely. This bird is underpowered compared to lets say a Dash8Q400. They should really put some more powerful engines under the wings!
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:23 am

In a stall the initial reaction from the plane is not Always a spin. The plane can enter a stall first that could be recoverable if you have enought altitude. Wings may then be pretty level. In a later stage of the stall as the stall deepens and the pilot has failed to recover, or if there is not enough Power to recover like in this case, the plane could enter a spin. I Think this is what we see. It can be stalled all along even if wings are level.
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 20):
Yes, left HS clips a pole on the left side of the highway, and is damaged.

Gotcha. I have played the video so many times, and I just don't see it clipping a pole. But, using my smartphone is a likely reason why I can't see it.

Quoting Navigator (Reply 23):
Why couldnt the pilots keep the plane flying on one Engine?? This is the major question here. All pilots are trained to do this. The gear was retracted so there was no drag.

I am suspicious the #2 engine wasn't performing right. A few experts have said that this plane should be able to maintain on one engine. A few pilots on here have said that as well. I guess we will see what the CVR gives up. Perhaps the crew didn't follow proper procedure on an engine out? I find that hard to swallow, because I am told this subject is covered very well during training and recurrent.
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AF1624
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:24 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 22):
This is the photo I was looking at. It looks like it has damage.

I believe the damage you see is due to the wing hitting the taxi a millisecond before the photo is taken - not hitting a pole.
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:43 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 26):
Quoting Navigator (Reply 23):Why couldnt the pilots keep the plane flying on one Engine?? This is the major question here. All pilots are trained to do this. The gear was retracted so there was no drag.
I am suspicious the #2 engine wasn't performing right. A few experts have said that this plane should be able to maintain on one engine. A few pilots on here have said that as well. I guess we will see what the CVR gives up. Perhaps the crew didn't follow proper procedure on an engine out? I find that hard to swallow, because I am told this subject is covered very well during training and recurrent.

This is indeed what bothers me too. But unlike you I can easily imagine that the pilots did not follow proper Engine failure procedures. I can also imagine that they lost spatial awareness trying to solve the problem. This leading to the stall we saw.
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:47 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 6):
I don't think anyone (at least not RCair) is stating that the aircraft was not stalled when it rolled, or that it was in controlled flight. The stall/no stall debate centres around the aircraft's flightpaths directly leading up to the wing drop. The flight path and the sudden wing drop lead me to believe that the a/c was not stalled until it almost reached the bridge, at which point it did stall, left wing first, hence the roll. As already stated, VMC and stall speed were so close here that I don't think the distinction is too important

I think we agree more than we disagree. I think most of us agree that if it wasn't stalled it was in an imminent stall and well on the back side of the power curve for the duration of the video.

Quoting Nav30 (Reply 8):

Like most people on here, I've viewed the 'last-phase 90-degree bank' many times. But it's only just occurred to me that, had the pilot not banked, he was so low that he would have hit either the lamp standards lining the road, or quite a big sign gantry directly in his path.

Causes me to wonder whether, at first, he felt reasonably confident that he had enough height left to clear the structures; realized close in that he didn't; and had to bank at 90 degrees, very late on, to avoid them?

That airplane was out of control the entire time. That was not what a roll would look like at the speed that airplane was "flying". The airplane went from 0 degrees bank to 90 degrees in 1-2 seconds. No matter where in the possible range (45-90 degrees/second) you slice it, that is far faster than just about any transport can roll at a normal airspeed, forget about near stall. For reference, I recall that the FBW computers in an Airbus 320 would give you 30 degrees/second with full side-stick.
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:17 am

Quoting Navigator (Reply 28):
This is indeed what bothers me too. But unlike you I can easily imagine that the pilots did not follow proper Engine failure procedures. I can also imagine that they lost spatial awareness trying to solve the problem. This leading to the stall we saw.

I agree with you. I just find it so difficult to imagine a crew deviating from what they have been hammered to follow. It seems like it would be nearly micromanagement behaviors in such an ermergency, and absolute discipline from the crew. I do have some flying experience, and I recall my instructor drilling me like a drill sergeant when simulating an emergency. I stand a chance at being flamed for asking the next question, but I think it is fair to say, I am obviously not familiar with pilot behaviors outside of the US, nor have I ever had the chance to visit any country outside of North America. So, I admit, I am somewhat ignorant in terms of lifestyles outside of my home. I know, I need to venture out a bit. Anyways, is it different crew resource management style in other countries? Asia seems to be ranking pretty high lately in serious incidents. Could this be from a training or maintenance issue? Or, could it be a streak of bad luck? Again, I don't want anyone to perceive my questions as condescending in any way. I guess I am just curious, and hope that I can somewhat relax my concerns. These questions really don't relate to this particular crash, because we don't know the cause. Oh, and no disrespect to my Asian flying friends here and streaking those blue skies!

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 27):
believe the damage you see is due to the wing hitting the taxi a millisecond before the photo is taken - not hitting a pole.

That would make sense. It amazes me how fast this happened, and how incredibly gut wrenching it is to watch. I want to stick with my gut, and think that the crew took maneuvers to prevent loss of life on the ground. When I first saw still photos on the net last night of this plane, I honestly thought it was photo shopped!

[Edited 2015-02-05 01:20:04]
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liquidair
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:14 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):

I'm in your camp... I don't think it's just luck they ended up in the river. People keep banging on about it not seeming like a ditching, but the river is small. With a lack of time, speed and height, that's pretty much the best they could possibly achieve.

Certainly it would've been worse nose down.
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vfw614
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:41 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 30):
I just find it so difficult to imagine a crew deviating from what they have been hammered to follow

I'd say that whatever you have been hammered to follow, if a large chunk of concrete like a high-rise building fills your cockpit window, you will forego procedures and just pull up or bank....

Interesting piece of information coming out of Taiwan - apparently the pilot was concerned about the state of an engine:

An unnamed “whistleblower” told Taiwan’s Liberty Times newspaper that Mr Liao requested a thorough inspection of the plane after noticing “engine abnormalities” during its previous flight. The pilot registered the problem on a flight log, the newspaper added.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...iver-in-Taiwan-latest-updates.html

It has been mentioned elsewhere that one of the survivors is a flight attendant who also survived the 2014 crash.
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:31 am

Not sure how the ATR flies but to me in the video it looks like they are stalled the whole way down, right before hitting the bridge I wonder if the PF let go of the controls to brace for impact sending it into a vmc, which would be the left bank at the end. I know in light twins you will VMC before you stall but I would guess the same with the ATR
 
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting Nav30 (Reply 8):
Like most people on here, I've viewed the 'last-phase 90-degree bank' many times. But it's only just occurred to me that, had the pilot not banked, he was so low that he would have hit either the lamp standards lining the road, or quite a big sign gantry directly in his path.

Causes me to wonder whether, at first, he felt reasonably confident that he had enough height left to clear the structures; realised close in that he didn't; and had to bank at 90 degrees, very late on, to avoid them?

We don't know if the pilot flying made the bank, perhaps the airplane banked because the left wing stalled.
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 32):
I wonder if the PF let go of the controls to brace for impact sending it into a vmc, which would be the left bank at the end.
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 34):
We don't know if the pilot flying made the bank, perhaps the airplane banked because the left wing stalled.

As said before, the ATR ailerons don't have that much roll authority, so it must have been a wing stall.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:43 am

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 13):
Well, according to local media, the CAA has now grounded the entire fleet of ATR-72 in Taiwan for "safety checks."

I'm putting this down to the government's need to be seen to be doing "something" (anything!) in the wake of two accidents. GE has been instructed to complete its checks by CoB today and B7 has been given until CoB tomorrow.

All checks have been completed and TransAsia will put the aircraft back into service.

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Aesma
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 32):
I'd say that whatever you have been hammered to follow, if a large chunk of concrete like a high-rise building fills your cockpit window, you will forego procedures and just pull up or bank....

The procedure that is hammered lets you far away from buildings, of course.
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Navigator
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 29):
That airplane was out of control the entire time. That was not what a roll would look like at the speed that airplane was "flying". The airplane went from 0 degrees bank to 90 degrees in 1-2 seconds. No matter where in the possible range (45-90 degrees/second) you slice it, that is far faster than just about any transport can roll at a normal airspeed, forget about near stall. For reference, I recall that the FBW computers in an Airbus 320 would give you 30 degrees/second with full side-stick.

I agree completely. It somehow bothers me that the airline is looking at its airplane fleet here rather than giving a thought about training issues.

What is also troublesome is that lately too many flyable planes with problems that can normally be managed with the right training have had accidents. This is difficult to bring forward but somehow it seems pilot training could have saved many airliners. Im not saying this is what happened here but it could very well be if what caused this stall was just an Engine failure.

If this planes only problem was an Engine failure the pilots should have been able to sort out the situation and go back to the Airport with one Engine.

Very sad.
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LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 22):
Perhaps this shot was captured after hitting the pole?

Perhaps it has just rotated enough at that point to see the damage?

Perhaps it is just the way the HS looks from that angle and there is no damage?

If it is damage, it's likely damage that happened well after loss of control, and it's probably unrelated to the accident.
 
vfw614
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:24 pm

Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 35):
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 32):
I wonder if the PF let go of the controls to brace for impact sending it into a vmc, which would be the left bank at the end.

As said before, the ATR ailerons don't have that much roll authority, so it must have been a wing stall.

Just for the record, although you quote me, this is someone else's post.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 37):
The procedure that is hammered lets you far away from buildings, of course.

Difficult above a city like Taipei. Nothing else but buildings. The river we are talking about is not the Hudson or the East River like in Sully's case. It is more like a rivulet, I'd say.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 39):
Perhaps it is just the way the HS looks from that angle and there is no damage?

See the way the elevator moves?

http://images.travbuddy.com/774483_12602328898332.jpg
 
ranold76
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:40 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 22):

That damage was from that wing hitting a taxi.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:43 pm



Quoting AF1624 (Reply 27):
I believe the damage you see is due to the wing hitting the taxi a millisecond before the photo is taken - not hitting a pole.
Quoting ranold76 (Reply 42):
That damage was from that wing hitting a taxi.

The damage in question is to the port HS, not the wing.

If you look at the port HS, it sorta' looks like a chunk is missing.

But I think it may just be the way it looks when the elevator moves, as in the pic in post 41.

[Edited 2015-02-05 04:45:06]
 
ranold76
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:49 pm

nevermind. Other video refutes this.

[Edited 2015-02-05 04:56:07]
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:50 pm

I'll say this though: it's going to be a really interesting investigation on why the plane crashed. Weather is likely not an issue, but operational procedures need to be carefully considered, especially if they didn't know how to handle the plane due to mechanical malfunctions like an engine-out situation.
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting txlbased (Reply 24):

Even if just one engine failed during takeoff/climb it´s quite a challenge to land an ATR safely.

It may not have the power of the Q400 but it's not difficult to land OEI.
 
vfw614
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting ranold76 (Reply 44):
This video shows what looks like the left rear section of the aircraft hitting the top of that building...

I am not sure. If it hit a building, it would be all over the news by now. Plus, the forces of an impact that immediately sends the aircraft into such a roll surely would have led to a major damage of the rear fuselage.
 
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zeke
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:09 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 47):

The aircraft may have been close to the minimum control speed, and an additional yaw or drag could be enough to tip the balance. If it did collect an aerial or similar, one of the reasons we may not know about it is it could have been illegally erected which is common in this part of the world.

Time will tell, the footage taken from further away in my view shows a change in trajectory near the buildings, that may have simply been the pilots pulling back to clear the structure and a subsequent loss of speed, and not CFIT.
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ranold76
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:46 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 47):

I agree. The other video refutes this and I edited my post.

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