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HALtheAI
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:37 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 146):
Why would the air safety board of Taiwan be so quick to release the data? And data that seems to be damning to the crew?

Well if the ASB is fairly certain it was pilot error, they might want to release that information to the public ASAP so they don't stop flying on all the other ATRs Taiwanese operators own.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:46 am

 
xdlx
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:47 am

Memory items on MULTI Engiene failures........IDENTIFY, VERIFY( before chosing wrong engine) , ..then Feather or secure failed engine.
 
LTC8K6
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:10 pm

"At the press conference, it was also revealed that the turboprop previously had a faulty left engine which was replaced in Macau."

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...our-minutes-after-take-off-408675/

Could they have been primed by the left engine replacement to think that it was the one that failed?
 
Backseater
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:35 pm

The world may be globalized but truth seems to have trouble reaching every one quickly.
15 minutes ago, the primary national news program out of Paris on France 2 commented the Air Asia video with:
"MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY Engine flameout" followed by the translation "Engine on fire".
I guess someone thought that the "flames were coming out"!  
 
rfields5421
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting timpdx (Reply 142):
Why is the flight data coming so quick compared to the Air Asia crash?

Different countries - different laws - different investigative agencies. And as noted by a forum member - a political figure trying to enhance his standing by leading data.

But the main reason the Air Asia data was delayed was due to the delay in finding the FDR/CVR and the need to special precautions in opening them after salt water immersion for several days.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
zrb2
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:24 pm

People tell me that many pilots nowadays are basically "system managers". Seems like when something goes wrong like in this case, or a stick shaker goes off...there's just panic and not enough time to assess the situation from a "keep the plane flying" perspective. Poor decisions are made. I suppose it's easy to sit here after the fact and make all the right calls and assessments. Just tragic when people lose their lives over this.
 
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Navigator
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting teme82 (Reply 149):
So it seems that this accident is pilot error. They turned engine #1 off shortly after engine #2 failed.

So sad.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 152):
Memory items on MULTI Engiene failures........IDENTIFY, VERIFY( before chosing wrong engine) , ..then Feather or secure failed engine.

Seems like pilots failed in a very basic engine failure procedure.
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Rara
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:04 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 157):
Seems like pilots failed in a very basic engine failure procedure.

Is that so.   Yesterday they failed in a very basic one-engine flying procedure. Let's see what transpires next.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
ukair
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:06 pm

during press conference Mr Wang from Taiwan's Aviation Safety Council can be heard to say the No.1 engine cut off at 53 minutes and 29 seconds, you would think they would get someone who could speak basic english, come on people have died here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-31162351
 
cloudsome
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:09 pm

Any updates on the third pilot? Some sources say he(?) was in the cockpit jumpseat as a "pilot-in-training", other that he was an instructor. I guess it's most likely he was just non-rev with no duties on this flight.

The regular pilots on this flight had 12 000 hours together, adding the third pilot present makes it 28 000 hours (even if a pilot off duty shouldn't interfere, it probably made for a better outcome at the "Gottröra crash", SK Flight 751). That's a lot of experience and yet they mix up which engine is which? Or did one of them panic? CVR is probably dreadful to hear, especially since it seems they did get the working engine started at the very last minute....
 
11marie11
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:24 pm

Telegraph.UK is reporting that the pilot told the airlines before flight that he was concerned about the engine and asked for a full system check and they rebuffed him. He also logged it. If that is the case, even if there was pilot error, the airlines set him up. The Air asia flight 8501 also had computer issues in the months before. How often does this happen in the US and Canada? Do they make the pilots fly even if the pilots have concerns? People have died. This is a horrible thing.
 
liquidair
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:27 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 145):

Indeed, it does- but in that situation there were many factors which contributed to the decision they took when shutting down the right (wrong) engine.

I'm going to assume that there's some sort of clear indication in the ATR as to which engine has left the building... I say that because it's 2015, and that was a new plane.
trying to stop my gaseous viscosity go liquid
 
dragon6172
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting 11marie11 (Reply 161):
Telegraph.UK is reporting that the pilot told the airlines before flight that he was concerned about the engine and asked for a full system check and they rebuffed him. He also logged it. If that is the case, even if there was pilot error, the airlines set him up. The Air asia flight 8501 also had computer issues in the months before. How often does this happen in the US and Canada? Do they make the pilots fly even if the pilots have concerns? People have died. This is a horrible thing

Which engine did he request checked out? The one that failed and went to autofeather? Or the one that the pilots seem to have shut down?
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bueb0g
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting ukair (Reply 159):
during press conference Mr Wang from Taiwan's Aviation Safety Council can be heard to say the No.1 engine cut off at 53 minutes and 29 seconds, you would think they would get someone who could speak basic english, come on people have died here

He's correct... 53 minutes 29 seconds, as in the time (10.53.29). I think it's your comprehension, rather than his English which needs improving.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting liquidair (Reply 162):
I'm going to assume that there's some sort of clear indication in the ATR as to which engine has left the building...

Yes, it's the one opposite the side you've just buried the rudder pedal in.

Which, looking at the flight trajectory, they probably didn't do very well either.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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william
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting 11marie11 (Reply 161):
Telegraph.UK is reporting that the pilot told the airlines before flight that he was concerned about the engine and asked for a full system check and they rebuffed him. He also logged it. If that is the case, even if there was pilot error, the airlines set him up. The Air asia flight 8501 also had computer issues in the months before. How often does this happen in the US and Canada? Do they make the pilots fly even if the pilots have concerns? People have died. This is a horrible thing.

How sad...........There are quite few people at TransAsia who are making new resumes today.
 
peterjohns
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:26 pm

It all seems very tragic in regards that this accident might have been prevented.

I would like the inclined reader to take something into consideration however. Some posters here have been talking about "damning the crew" , the "pilots fault" , and so on.

I have been working in this field with our ATC- we call it CISM or "critical incident stress management", which kicks in after such happenings.

Usualy, and it is very human, if the cause of an incident or accident , when the cause seems to be clear, to assumpt it someones fault. Especially in the airline world, in fact it usually isn´t. In my experience, there is always more than meets the eye, and there are always more than one contributing factor that leads to an accident.
Assuming that the pilot or crew did not crash on purpose (delibrately- then you could speak of their fault) the question arrises - what led him or them to believe they had to cut-off the running engine?
Remember the 737 in Midlands?

We try hard to live in a no-blame environment at work, and instead try to learn out of every incident in order to prevent future similar happenings.
I hope the airline world will do here too. Thank you for reading.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 167):
I would like the inclined reader to take something into consideration however. Some posters here have been talking about "damning the crew" , the "pilots fault" , and so on.

It's always easy to blame the pilot but the real question should be: why did he made the mistake? Perhaps the pilots are not getting enough training. Then the blame should go to TransAsia.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Navigator
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 158):
Is that so. Yesterday they failed in a very basic one-engine flying procedure. Let's see what transpires next.

Yes they did! If they had followed the correct engine failure procedure they would not have shut the functioning Engine!!

[Edited 2015-02-06 07:32:57]

[Edited 2015-02-06 07:34:15]
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SWALUV
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 165):
Quoting xdlx (Reply 152):

Drilled in from day one, Identify DEAD Foot, DEAD Engine.... Looks like they missed that step(s) RIP
 
rcair1
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:33 pm

My interpretation of events is as follows.
This is not any kind of official analysis.
Time (approximate)Engine 1 (Left)Engine 2 (right)Comments
2:52:33RunningFlame out warning Aircraft climbing
2:52:41RunningFuel flow zeroRight engine has failed, feathered (auto?), but fuel is still on.
RunningFeathered (auto)
2:52:43RunningAuto restartAuto restart continues to end of flight
2:53:05Throttle reducedAuto restartThrottle on #1 is pulled back
2:53:00Throttle 0%Auto restartBoth engines producing no thrust. Descent starts
2:53:23Fuel Shut offAuto restartDescending
2:53:27Auto restartAuto restartDescending
2:54:18Fuel OnAuto restartDescending
2:54:23Engine startingAuto restartDescending
2:54:29Coming out of FeatherAuto restartDescending
rcair1
 
Backseater
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:35 pm

I am somewhat puzzled (but maybe unnecessarily so) by the a/c climb rate just before engine #2 flamed out.
At 52:30 (8 sec before flameout) the climb rate appears to be (from FR data provided by KarelXWB and PW100):
- 2,500ft/min averaged over the previous 6 seconds
- 2,300ft/min averaged over the previous 13 seconds
(I used that larger time increment to confirm because time stamps unfortunately have a low resolution)

I am not sure about the acceptable range of climb rates for an ATR 72-600 but the ATR brochure states as performance:
- Optimum climb speed 170 KCAS
- Rate of climb (ISA, SL, MTOW) 1,355 ft/min

Of course the a/c was probably well below MTOW with 53pax/70seats and unknown fuel (but that was to be a short trip of approx 250nm / max range 825nm).
 
26point2
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 145):
'Shutting down the wrong engine' - hearing suggestions of that makes me think about the Kegworth air disaster - British Midland Flight 92

Wasn't that crash partially the fault of cross-wired fire detection systems...the pilots were warned of a fire on the wrong engine?

Good CRM dictates, at least in the Western world, nothing be done until at a safe altitude and proper engine controls (Left vs. Right) are confirmed by BOTH crew members before a change is made. Sounds like a rookie mistake. Often best to do nothing rather than something in haste.
 
11marie11
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:44 pm

Here is the new article headline and a link to the article:

"TransAsia plane crash: Pilot complained of ‘engine abnormality’ before take-off"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...gine-abnormality-before-crash.html
 
hivue
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 168):
Perhaps the pilots are not getting enough training.

For one engine out approx. 45 seconds after takeoff (probably above V2, gear up, maybe totally cleaned up)? That would be pretty bad.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 168):
Then the blame should go to TransAsia.

I should say so.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 173):
Wasn't that crash partially the fault of cross-wired fire detection systems...the pilots were warned of a fire on the wrong engine?

No, it was the air system and in previous versions of the 737 the cockpit air feed only came from one engine and since the pilots had experience on the older types, when they smelled the smoke/fumes they "knew" which engine it must be coming from and so shut it down based on that. But that was not correct, the -400 had cross-connected air systems and so they were smelling the left engine and so had shut down the wrong engine.

This is a rough description, I apologize if I have anything mis-stated

Tugg
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There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
rcair1
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 176):
This is a rough description, I apologize if I have anything mis-stated

In addition the vibration warning systems were viewed as not reliable so they disregarded the vibrations on the failed engine.
rcair1
 
D L X
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:08 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 171):

So, there was a question (perhaps in the last thread) about why you couldn't hear any prop noise in the crash video, but you could hear the plane hit the bridge. This could be the answer - there was no (or little) prop noise because both engines had been shut off.
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting BackSeater (Reply 172):

I am not sure about the acceptable range of climb rates for an ATR 72-600 but the ATR brochure states as performance:
- Optimum climb speed 170 KCAS
- Rate of climb (ISA, SL, MTOW) 1,355 ft/min

That will be the post acceleration (flaps up) climb speed.

During initial climb segments at take off, you would be a little above V2 which should be in the region of 115-120kias for the ATR72.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 171):
2:54:29 Engine 1 Coming out of Feather

That might explain the left wing dropping : engine out of feather but not producing much thrust yet.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
migair54
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:24 pm

So I'm right since the start, pilot error, something that in the -600 is even more difficult, because in the FWS (Flight Warning System) you'll get the message, Engine 2 flame out, it's not like the old ATR when you have to find out using indications and handling.

Quoting 11marie11 (Reply 161):
Telegraph.UK is reporting that the pilot told the airlines before flight that he was concerned about the engine and asked for a full system check and they rebuffed him. He also logged it. If that is the case, even if there was pilot error, the airlines set him up. The Air asia flight 8501 also had computer issues in the months before. How often does this happen in the US and Canada? Do they make the pilots fly even if the pilots have concerns? People have died. This is a horrible thing.

As a Captain the moment he accepted flying that plane he took full responsability, as a captain, if he was not happy or 100% sure that the plane was mechanically or legally ready to fly, he should have refused to do the flight, for his safety, his crew and his pax. This part is one of the biggest problems in some countries and some airlines, where looking after safety is not first.
 
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hilram
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 181):
This part is one of the biggest problems in some countries and some airlines, where looking after safety is not first.

  
Too dangerous to fly these Airlines where pilots will be scolded and possibly sacked for being "over-cautios". I also have in mind the recent Air Asia X accident, where pilots saw the bad weather, were aware of the dangers, and pressed on rather than go back.

All these efforts to mandate weather radar, checks, develop procedures etc. are seemingly trumphed by horrible fear-driven corporate culture.
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
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Aesma
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting 11marie11 (Reply 174):
Here is the new article headline and a link to the article:

"TransAsia plane crash: Pilot complained of ‘engine abnormality’ before take-off"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...gine-abnormality-before-crash.html
Quoting migair54 (Reply 181):
As a Captain the moment he accepted flying that plane he took full responsability, as a captain, if he was not happy or 100% sure that the plane was mechanically or legally ready to fly, he should have refused to do the flight, for his safety, his crew and his pax.

I wonder if the captain was concerned about engine #1, then when an engine went out, he thought "that damn engine, I knew it !" and shut it down...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting SWALUV (Reply 170):
Drilled in from day one, Identify DEAD Foot, DEAD Engine.... Looks like they missed that step(s)

In the ATR72-600, the rudder autotrims on engine out.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
migair54
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 182):
 
Too dangerous to fly these Airlines where pilots will be scolded and possibly sacked for being "over-cautios". I also have in mind the recent Air Asia X accident, where pilots saw the bad weather, were aware of the dangers, and pressed on rather than go back.

All these efforts to mandate weather radar, checks, develop procedures etc. are seemingly trumphed by horrible fear-driven corporate culture.

Exactly, or even other pilots mocking them for not doing a flight, the super pilot aura of some guys is extremely dangerous.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 184):
In the ATR72-600, the rudder autotrims on engine out.

Correct if Yaw Damper is engage.

The procedure says that the Pilot flying (PF) reduce the Thrust of failed engine after getting the comfiguration of PNF (pilot not flying) and the PNF after checking nothing is wrong and after getting PF confirmation will Feather the engine.

So in this case "if they followed the procedure" (personally I think they didnt), both were wrong, plus the pilot in the jump seat.

I have seen this situation in the Simulator few times, usually (I'm not saying this time happened) the captain decide to do all the steps without any confirmation (because he's the captain and he can't be wrong) and did a wrong identification of the failed engine. A big CRM issue.

Let's wait and see the investigation. It's really very sad when a pilot error cause an accident, specially if it's for causes that they'd been avoided.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 147):
Regardless, all I was trying to say is that the information is not being leaked.

Thursday night it was announced on Sky News that the data would be released on Friday.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 185):
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 184):
In the ATR72-600, the rudder autotrims on engine out.

Correct if Yaw Damper is engage.

I thought that when the power mode is set to TO, there is automatic feathering of a dead engine, a torque uptrim of the live engine to 100% (which can be manually increased to 115%) and auto rudder trim to balance the asymmetric power.

Are these features also present in CLB mode? At what altitude is CLB selected?

Can you unfeather / relight in CLB, or do you need to go to MCT?
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
rcair1
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 178):
This could be the answer - there was no (or little) prop noise because both engines had been shut off.

Maybe.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 180):
That might explain the left wing dropping : engine out of feather but not producing much thrust yet.

If #1 is coming up - I would think it would cause a right yaw moment. I don't see how it could produce left yaw moment/roll. But perhaps you're saying that as the engine spooled up and un-feathered, there is a point where it the drag increased before thrust increased.

I don't think so. If I'm correct, and I'm sure somebody will correct me if not (hope so), as a prop comes out of feather it will go from feathered (very course), through course, to fine (or to selected). The real problem with a non-feathered prop will be if it is in fine pitch.

I think it would start producing thrust from the git go.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 183):
I wonder if the captain was concerned about engine #1, then when an engine went out, he thought "that damn engine, I knew it !" and shut it down...

I think that is a reasonable possibility.
Humans are VERY good at seeing what they are thinking, not thinking about what they are seeing. This is famously true in eye witness cases.

If this is the case - what a shame.
The CVR may be very telling.
rcair1
 
mandala499
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 1):
My company doesn't fly there so we don't have any Jepps or Lido access.

You mean this Lido?
Quoting hilram (Reply 182):
I also have in mind the recent Air Asia X accident, where pilots saw the bad weather, were aware of the dangers, and pressed on rather than go back.

Which Air Asia X accident? They've had an accident? That's new...
Unless you mean Indonesia Air Asia instead of Air Asia X. And, so, do you tell the the Emirates captain 40NM ahead of him that he's been a bad boy too? :p

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 171):

My interpretation of events is as follows.
This is not any kind of official analysis.

Eng 1 didn't unfeather upon restart, CL1 was in feather.
CL2 was not in feather, began to unfeather during autorestart, which only happened after you put PL2 into idle.

Even by "crappy Asian standards", sorry, this, raises a lot of question on CRM...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
xdlx
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 184):

Too much automation...!   
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting wxmeddler (Reply 132):
Wow.. So engine #2 dies, (dashed line)... Pilots respond by reducing power to #1 ~30 sec later followed by fuel cutoff to engine #1.

I can agree with what LTC8K6 and others are pondering:

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 153):
Could they have been primed by the left engine replacement to think that it was the one that failed?
Quoting 11marie11 (Reply 161):

Telegraph.UK is reporting that the pilot told the airlines before flight that he was concerned about the engine and asked for a full system check and they rebuffed him. He also logged it. If that is the case, even if there was pilot error, the airlines set him up. The Air asia flight 8501 also had computer issues in the months before. How often does this happen in the US and Canada? Do they make the pilots fly even if the pilots have concerns? People have died. This is a horrible thing.

I'm not sure if it related directly. It doesn't sound like it was the suspect engine that flamed-out, and it sounds like their decision-making exacerbated what might have been a "routine" problem. Or, at least, something they would have practiced many times.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 181):

So I'm right since the start

  Is everything a contest or pat-on-the-back moment?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 183):
I wonder if the captain was concerned about engine #1, then when an engine went out, he thought "that damn engine, I knew it !" and shut it down...

I can see it. Heck, i could see myself doing it if I was predisposed to thinking a certain thing. Probably for the best that I'm not a pilot.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Flaps
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 183):
I wonder if the captain was concerned about engine #1, then when an engine went out, he thought "that damn engine, I knew it !" and shut it down...

That was my first thought.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 185):
The procedure says that the Pilot flying (PF) reduce the Thrust of failed engine after getting the comfiguration of PNF (pilot not flying) and the PNF after checking nothing is wrong and after getting PF confirmation will Feather the engine.

So in this case "if they followed the procedure" (personally I think they didnt), both were wrong, plus the pilot in the jump seat.

I have seen this situation in the Simulator few times, usually (I'm not saying this time happened) the captain decide to do all the steps without any confirmation (because he's the captain and he can't be wrong) and did a wrong identification of the failed engine. A big CRM issue.

Who's procedures? Yours? Your airlines? Transaisa's?
 
exfss
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 183):
I wonder if the captain was concerned about engine #1, then when an engine went out, he thought "that damn engine, I knew it !" and shut it down...


It could very well happen.

Do someone know when the mayday was sent ?
Was it at the flame out of the engine or when they realized they had lost both, because then a mayday would be the right praseology, otherwise, with only one engine flamed out, it would then not be a mayday , but pan pan pan.

I dont see a pilot calling a mayday when losing one engine on a twin, even on take off.
So I assume they remained silence until they saw they had no chance to regain altitude.
No question is stupid.Only answers can be.
 
laddb
Posts: 220
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting exfss (Reply 195):
Do someone know when the mayday was sent ?

After. See reply 139.
 
motif1
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:56 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 178):
So, there was a question (perhaps in the last thread) about why you couldn't hear any prop noise in the crash video, but you could hear the plane hit the bridge. This could be the answer - there was no (or little) prop noise because both engines had been shut off.

That was my question and I believe I got my answer. There should've been some prop noise if engine(s) were running...
What a tragic story!


M1
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree
 
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rikkus67
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:59 pm

From what I understand now, we had a faulty left engine replacement, with concerns that the replacement was still not operating correctly. Now we have strong indication that the right engine flamed out...

It will be interesting to see what is found on maintainence of the ATR fleet at Transasia, on top of what looks like pilot error on the wrong engine being shut down.

Such a tragic event with many layers now being revealed. My sympathies to all involved.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
rcair1
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 190):
Eng 1 didn't unfeather upon restart, CL1 was in feather.
CL2 was not in feather, began to unfeather during autorestart, which only happened after you put PL2 into idle.

Thanks - but can you explain in the terms used on the graphics please. I'd like to understand what I misinterpreted.

It would help a lot if the chart included a legend. Also - you may want to consider defining your TLA's too.
rcair1
 
migair54
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RE: Transasia ATR-72 Crashes In Taipei - Part 2

Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 194):
Who's procedures? Yours? Your airlines? Transaisa's?

ATR standard operating procedures, and every airline base their own procedures following almost entirely this ones. Specially for the -600 versions.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 192):
Is everything a contest or pat-on-the-back moment?

Of corse not, I'm just saying that I said that before.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 188):
Are these features also present in CLB mode? At what altitude is CLB selected?

Only with Take off power selected in the PWR MGTand ATPCS System armed. Climb is selected at the acceleration altitude, usually (not always) in a normal take off 400-500 AGL.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 188):
Can you unfeather / relight in CLB, or do you need to go to MCT?

You can, but relighting the engine takes time, plus the time to unfeather the engine and the time to spool up the engine give power.

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