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Quantos
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London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:50 am

http://www.londoncityairport.com/News/ReadPressRelease/1469

In a step forward in easing aviation capacity in the South East, plans to expand London City Airport have been given the go-ahead.

The decision, granted on Tuesday [3 February], clears the way for a £200 million investment that will enable the airport to operate up to a permitted 111,000 annual flights, from the 70,000 currently flying. This new capacity will help ease the pressure on existing airport infrastructure in London and the UK while a decision is made on where new runway capacity will be delivered, and in the period before it becomes operational in the late 2020s.

By 2023 the expansion programme will:

Generate additional short-haul aviation capacity for the UK
Create 1,500 new jobs and a further 500 during construction
Double economic impact to £1.5bn per annum
Facilitate greater levels of inward investment in East London
Deliver a world-class international gateway to London

The plans include developing existing infrastructure to increase runway capacity, to allow more take-offs and landings at peak times and accommodate the next generation of quieter, more fuel efficient aircraft. These aircraft have longer ranges and will open up new markets not currently served from London City Airport.

Declan Collier, CEO of London City Airport said: “The development of the airport will culminate in 2023 when, having constructed seven new aircraft stands, a parallel taxiway and terminal extensions to the west and to the east, the airport will be welcoming some six million passengers every year.”

Around two thirds of passengers using London City Airport are business travellers, with the convenient connections to Europe’s commercial centres acting as a catalyst for inward investment in East London.

A recent Com Res survey found that 68% of Newham residents supported the expansion plans, while a further 20% were neutral. 84% of respondents said that the airport brings mostly advantages to the local area.
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Cipango
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting Quantos (Thread starter):
The decision, granted on Tuesday [3 February], clears the way for a £200 million investment that will enable the airport to operate up to a permitted 111,000 annual flights, from the 70,000 currently flying.

£200 million for a 58.5% increase in capacity at a prime London airport is a very good deal I think.

Good job LCY!
     
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OA260
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:04 pm

Well lets hope they improve the passenger experience in the Terminal. It is terrible at peak times.
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:12 pm

Are they expanding the runway towards the Thames?
 
factsonly
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 3):
Are they expanding the runway towards the Thames?


NO !

Quoting Quantos (Thread starter):
seven new aircraft stands, a parallel taxiway and terminal extensions to the west and to the east,
 
seansasLCY
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:03 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 3):
Are they expanding the runway towards the Thames?

The runway isn't being extended. The taxiway will and will run parallel with the runway along with additional stands. These will be built over part of Royal Albert Dock.
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:12 pm

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 5):

This probably has been asked here to death, but which is the reason they cannot extend the runway towards the river? It seems a wasteland there.

Is it because of housing on the other side of the Thames just facing the runway?
 
Clydenairways
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:13 pm

Am i right in reading it will take until 2023 to complete this? Just for a few parking stands and a taxiway!
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:23 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 6):
This probably has been asked here to death, but which is the reason they cannot extend the runway towards the river? It seems a wasteland there.

The runway length isn't really the problem with LCY. 5,000ft is enough runway for a 737-800 to operate without trouble. The problem is the steep approach angle of 5.5-6 degrees due to terrain, traffic, noise abatement, etc. Most airports have a 3 degree glideslope. 6 degrees is very challenging to maintain a steep approach. Most airplanes don't have the ability to maintain a stable approach at that angle.

LCY needs the taxiway so that airplanes don't have to back taxi on the runway. That will dramatically improve runway operations and speed up traffic. Parking spaces are also at a premium. Expanding where there is already enough space if they filled in some more land is best for the airport. 5,000ft runway is not really the problem for a local regional airport.
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:28 pm

I wonder whether LCY will get a second runway before LHR receives a third one   
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KaiTak747
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:01 pm

Is LCY at max capacity at the moment?

Who do you think will increase service when the capacity is increased?
 
vv701
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 7):
Am i right in reading it will take until 2023 to complete this? Just for a few parking stands and a taxiway!

In addition to the new taxiway and stands there is the extension to both the east and west of the existing terminal. They will also need to build new piers over the King George V Dock on which the taxiway and some of the stands will be located..

Before construction can start the detailed engineering drawings will need to be drawn up. They will then have to be submitted to interested construction companies for them to draw up their bids. These bids will need to be submitted, discussed and one accepted. Only then can construction start.

So its a lot more work than just laying down a new taxiway and a few aircraft stands. Indeed I believe that most of the existing LCY stands are now considered to be too small to meet future needs. So stand construction will likely be a stepwise process if, as I assume, the small stands are replaced by larger stands and major disruption to current services is avoided.

At LCY, constructed in a confined space on piers over water, everything is more complex than in a conventional airport
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
The runway length isn't really the problem with LCY. 5,000ft is enough runway for a 737-800 to operate without trouble.

Not quite.

Available take-off distance is only 1199 m (=3934 ft). I think you will find your 737-800 severely payload limited. Most likely to the extent that it will become useless for its intended task . . .  
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ChrisM001
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:37 pm

Its all about moving on, and developing the airport around the aircraft types for the future. The 146/RJ served the airport well, but the future is A318, Embraer 170/190 and Bombardier C Series. All of which have a much greater wingspan that the original aircraft at LCY, hence more suitable stands required in the longterm. By developing a parallel taxiway you also make the runway much more efficient with no need to backtrack.
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Well lets hope they improve the passenger experience in the Terminal. It is terrible at peak times.

I don't know about terrible. Yes, it can get crowded in the morning, and the lack of a BA lounge is an annoyance, but the improvements to and in the security area have made a huge difference.

Even when crowded, I'd still much rather be at LCY to LTN or STN. LTN - now there's a terrible airport...
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:17 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
Before construction can start the detailed engineering drawings will need to be drawn up. They will then have to be submitted to interested construction companies for them to draw up their bids. These bids will need to be submitted, discussed and one accepted. Only then can construction start.

Sure, understood, but eight years?!? Come on...

Admittedly, I'm not a professional project manager, but I can't see why a firm can't design the project in under 18 months, allow one year for contractors to review and bid on the project and another 18 months to actually build it. They're not digging the Chunnel.
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henny
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:20 pm

I see an A319 steep approach certification programme on the horizon...   Well done LCY and the planners which approved this!
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tp1040
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:41 pm

Very much needed.

Can somebody explain why the area is still surrounded by water. London Docks were artificially created and some other areas have been filled in.
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting henny (Reply 16):
I see an A319 steep approach certification programme on the horizon... Well done LCY and the planners which approved this!

Some A319s are already certified for this.
B737-700 Vs A319 And LCY (by Beeweel15 Nov 18 2009 in Civil Aviation)
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:12 pm

Yes this is great news, and long overdue - I've lost count of how many times the decision date has been pushed back.

Some quite high concessions on the movements and passenger numbers mind in order for the approval to be made, but overall good news.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 6):
This probably has been asked here to death, but which is the reason they cannot extend the runway towards the river? It seems a wasteland there.

LCY is a code 2 airport, which are allowed a maximum certified length of 1,199m. To promulgate longer declared distances the airport would have to upgrade to a Code 3 facility, meaning extending the clearway from 75m to 150m each side of the centreline. Clearly this is infeasible. The airfield already has a dispensation to allow 10% extra on the declared distances for landing.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
The runway length isn't really the problem with LCY. 5,000ft is enough runway for a 737-800 to operate without trouble. The problem is the steep approach angle of 5.5-6 degrees due to terrain, traffic, noise abatement, etc. Most airports have a 3 degree glideslope. 6 degrees is very challenging to maintain a steep approach. Most airplanes don't have the ability to maintain a stable approach at that angle.

As PW100 mentions, that is only the surfaced length, not the distance to be used when calculating take off performance.

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 10):
Is LCY at max capacity at the moment?

Morning and evening, yes. During the day, not at all. They even offer a £0 landing fee during really quiet periods to try and attract customers.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 7):
Am i right in reading it will take until 2023 to complete this? Just for a few parking stands and a taxiway!

No, they intend to get the new stands constructed ASAP. Until they do, LCY will be restricted to accommodating 4 A318/C Series aircraft at any one time, and that is not enough for the future growth.


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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 18):
Some A319s are already certified for this.
B737-700 Vs A319 And LCY (by Beeweel15 Nov 18 2009 in Civil Aviation)
See reply 7

He means the A318. The A319 is not certified for operations into LCY and it isn't planned to attempt certification.


Dan  
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henny
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting Plymspotter (Reply 20):
The A319 is not certified for operations into LCY and it isn't planned to attempt certification.

...yet.

LCY shall outgrow the A318, mark these words...
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting henny (Reply 21):
...yet.

LCY shall outgrow the A318, mark these words...

No, not at all. How are you going to fly the aircraft into an airport where it isn't possible to depart or arrive with even a remotely economical payload due to runway performance constraints?

Demand is already there for larger types, but this will come with the significantly lighter and sprightlier C Series.


Dan  
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:32 pm

They need a longer runway, not more crowded terminals. Start by solving the LCY-JFK fuel stop.
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting ChrisM001 (Reply 13):
By developing a parallel taxiway you also make the runway much more efficient with no need to backtrack

Correct! I have been on some interesting flights out of LCY at peak times. I wonder how many times ATC has to request an aircraft to "Expedite departure". Love that rocket ship feeling LOL.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 12):
Available take-off distance is only 1199 m (=3934 ft). I think you will find your 737-800 severely payload limited.

I think it's more to do with the arrival and departure patterns at LCY, which is an STOL runway. IIRC the A318's have to have a manual software mod put in to allow them to fly 5.5 degree glide slope which requires the spoilers to be deployed on the approach to control speed, which otherwise would be uncontainable.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 23):
They need a longer runway, not more crowded terminals. Start by solving the LCY-JFK fuel stop.

Not going to happen given the proximity to residential east London at one end and Canary Wharf business district at the other.

On a personal note I love the E190's and choose LCY deliberately to get the better cabin and convenience of onwards travel on the DLR.

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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 23):
They need a longer runway, not more crowded terminals. Start by solving the LCY-JFK fuel stop.

Not possible.

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 24):
I think it's more to do with the arrival and departure patterns at LCY, which is an STOL runway. IIRC the A318's have to have a manual software mod put in to allow them to fly 5.5 degree glide slope which requires the spoilers to be deployed on the approach to control speed, which otherwise would be uncontainable.

It is a combination of factors. The A318 could probably fly a 5.5 degree glideslope onto a longer runway, but not at a sensible approach speed considering the 1,319m landing distance available.


Dan  
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TeamintheSky
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:01 pm

This is great news. I love flying in and out of LCY when possible. As part of the slow expansion, I hope they also encourage the council to work on the roads to LCY. If you are taking one of the first flights in the morning to Scotland or Ireland and have to take a cab, it typically takes forever once you hit Hartmann Road.

Also, if you pull up the pictures of the proposed expansion, the pictures seem to indicate the airport nearly doubling the size of the terminal. While it runs counter to LCY's purpose of only needing to be there shortly before the flight, I wonder if BA or a third party would be able to add a lounge?

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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 24):
I think it's more to do with the arrival and departure patterns at LCY, which is an STOL runway. IIRC the A318's have to have a manual software mod put in to allow them to fly 5.5 degree glide slope which requires the spoilers to be deployed on the approach to control speed, which otherwise would be uncontainable.

Oh absolutely. Each aircraft type operating to/from LCY will have to be adapted and special procedures set up and approved for the 5.5° steep approach.

But that does not change the fact that take-off length available is only 1199 meters. While I don't doubt that Boeing would be able to develop and offer such a steep approach option for the 737-800, it won't be able to offer any (meaningful) payload of a 1199 meter runway.
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jghastings
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:51 pm

I think this is my first post on the forum, but I thought a few points may help explain to other users about the realities of extending the runway at LCY. I work right opposite the terminal, and have been commuting back and forth past both ends of the runway for 3 years.

At each end of the runway is a road bridge - the Connaught Bridge at the western end, and the Sir Steve Redgrave Bridge at the other. Aside from any actual works that would be needed to extend the land/platform that the runway is on (and the issues surrounding the runway category that I am far to unknowledgeable to comment on), these bridges are a key barrier.

The Sir Steve Redgrave Bridge is the key road link out of the eastern end of North Woolwich, and is currently the main route to the Woolwich Ferry service from the A406 North Circular Road (this is a road traffic ferry, and the last available crossing of the Thames between the Blackwall Tunnel to the west and the M25 motorway way way way to the east). Taking this bridge out to enable the runway to be extended eastwards would require an alternative route to be put in place as simply eliminating the route would be unacceptable, and the options are minimal. There are major housing developments to the east of the bridge on both sides of the Royal Albert Dock which will prohibit a new site for a bridge, so the only real option would be to put the road in a tunnel. I am not sure there is room on either side for the necessary portals to do this, particularly as the existing bridge would have to remain open until the new link was ready. There may be options if a proposed replacement for the Woolwich Ferry (either a bridge or another ferry) at Gallions Reach goes ahead and reduces the road traffic across the bridge, but it is still a key community link that is well used by local traffic throughout the day so would have to be maintained. I believe there are also major development plans for the bits of land on the eastern side of the bridge that lead up to the Thames.

At the western end, the Connaught Bridge has perhaps even fewer options. Immediately underneath it is the Connaught rail tunnel, which is being re-engineered to form part of the Abbey Wood branch of Crossrail, so another tunnel here is not feasible. That means the bridge would have to be moved west, which on the south side of the dock would require valuable development land to be eaten up in the area earmarked to become the landmark Silvertown Quays site. On the north side the presence of a number of hotels means the only real option for a bridge launch point is the car park beside ExCeL (which regularly gets used as part of the exhibition space). In truth, the extra runway this would allow for would not really do a great deal for the airport.

In terms of whether the docks should even remain, I should point out that waterside living has become very popular in London and the developments that have already been built around this area have been marketed to take advantage of this. As such there would be massive resistance to any proposal to drain and fill in these docks. In addition, ExCeL has become a venue for boat and military shows that take full advantage of its waterside location to enable exhibits to be floated in.

All this means that the runway is in all practicality limited to its current length (and steep glidescope). For the purpose the airport is meant to serve, this is more than adequate - Heathrow and Gatwick are far more suited to longer-range services, and LCY meanwhile offers a convenient alternative for some business travellers on shorter routes to European financial centres/premium leisure destinations. Indeed, I have to wonder how long after Crossrail is fully operational (and Canary Wharf/The City suddenly become well-connected to Heathrow) the second daily LCY-JFK service will remain, given it no longer benefits from pre-clearance at Shannon so does not necessarily offer much of an advantage over an LHR service (particularly with T5 and T2 now offering such world-class facilities).

A new parallel taxiway will be a massive boost to the airport, especially in the morning and late afternoon peaks when the movement of aircraft around the field is a complicated choreography. Additional stands will also be key to this - having witnessed first hand what goes on there in the morning peak on many occasions, it seems to me that aircraft must be frequently held in the sky until there's actually room for them to park when they land - without stands free, there is basically nowhere for planes to wait except for a brief pause on the taxiway by the terminal. I recently stacked there for quite some time, and when we landed there did seem to be only one stand free so I couldn't help but feel that this was why we circled Southend for 15 minutes.

The terminal is in dire need of expansion. Despite living only 10 minutes away, I have only managed to fly out of there a couple of times - once on a quiet Saturday morning when things were fine, but more recently I departed in the full morning peak on a weekday. All I can say is the experience left me feeling considerably less riled about having to pass through the airport's DLR station on my way to Heathrow on a regular basis. Arriving at LCY remains a joy, but until there is more room in the departure lounge it is not perhaps as attractive as it might appear.
 
Rivet42
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:52 pm

Yes, good news, but they really must focus on improving the terminal; it's just horrendous during the Friday evening peak period, and rather undermines the image of a 'business' airport (it may well have had the atmosphere of a vip lounge in the early days, but maxing out on the runway and stand capacity has seriously overstretched the interior facilities). They also need to move the airside access road behind the gate exits (or to the far side of the apron), so that boarding is not hampered and delayed by a procession of service vehicles that always appear to have right of way.

Long overdue upgrade.

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davs5032
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting jghastings (Reply 28):

Thank you for posting, very informative.
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:40 pm

I saw in here somewhere that they want to make LCY a "world class" gateway.

So does that mean they are going to level the area adjacent to LCY, extend the runway, and allow for 777s and A380s?    kidding of course!

I think BA can make a nice TATL/mid range O&D hub in LCY with the A318 and/or CSeries, stretching from IAD to DME or DXB. And this is a good way to start.
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Tangowhisky
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting Plymspotter (Reply 20):
He means the A318. The A319 is not certified for operations into LCY and it isn't planned to attempt certification.

True. The main reason I believe is that an A319 sized aircraft can scrape the tail on flare from a 5.5 to 6 degree abused landing (meaning up to 6.5 degrees profile). That is the reason short stubby aircraft can qualify.
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PlymSpotter
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 32):
The main reason I believe is that an A319 sized aircraft can scrape the tail on flare from a 5.5 to 6 degree abused landing (meaning up to 6.5 degrees profile). That is the reason short stubby aircraft can qualify.

No, it is purely down to the A319s lesser performance - remember any aircraft using LCY has to be able to depart safely using just 1,199m of runway - that is a big ask. The E190 is about 2.5m meters longer than the A319 and has less clearance. The also A319 has the same wingspan as the A318 plus it has a smaller tail, giving better clearance to airspace surfaces.


Dan  
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LLA001
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:45 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 31):
So does that mean they are going to level the area adjacent to LCY, extend the runway, and allow for 777s and A380s?    kidding of course!

I once landed a 744 on FsX, its possible   in relation with the surrounding buildings, 747 showed its true size in there ,

what would be the noise effect of bigger aircraft to the surrounding?
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:12 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 15):

Quoting VV701 (Reply 11):
Before construction can start the detailed engineering drawings will need to be drawn up. They will then have to be submitted to interested construction companies for them to draw up their bids. These bids will need to be submitted, discussed and one accepted. Only then can construction start.

Sure, understood, but eight years?!? Come on...

Admittedly, I'm not a professional project manager, but I can't see why a firm can't design the project in under 18 months, allow one year for contractors to review and bid on the project and another 18 months to actually build it. They're not digging the Chunnel.

If this were a greenfield site, 8 years might well be way too long, the reality however is that its an operational airport already operating near to capacity, which is open 6 days a week, and is in the middle of one of the Worlds major cities. Newham Council has imposed 131 conditions on the planning permission in order to safeguard local residents, ranging from restrictions in the number of flights to what hours the piledrivers can work. Additionally the permission is subject to approval by both the Mayor of London and the Govt.

Quoting tp1040 (Reply 17):
an somebody explain why the area is still surrounded by water. London Docks were artificially created and some other areas have been filled in.

Filling in docks is controversial and expensive, no one will do it unless they can see a direct cost benefit.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 23):
They need a longer runway, not more crowded terminals. Start by solving the LCY-JFK fuel stop.

They would need to remove a lot of buildings from the approaches in order to utilise any runway extension. Its just not going to happen.

Quoting Plymspotter (Reply 25):
It is a combination of factors. The A318 could probably fly a 5.5 degree glideslope onto a longer runway, but not at a sensible approach speed considering the 1,319m landing distance available.

"probably" ? the A318 manages it twice a day at present into LCY
 
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:14 am

Quoting Plymspotter (Reply 33):

I think you may be eating these words within a couple of years, based on things I understand the airlines are seeking from the Airport. Do bear in mind that although the TORA is 1199m, the TODA and ASDA are longer in both directions and carriers are unlikely to want to use these aircraft for much more than relatively short hops (maybe CDG/AMS/ZRH), and load factors will always be slightly lighter because of the need to maintain flexible ticketing, along with relatively low levels of heavy hold baggage compared to conventional services.

Also worth bearing in mind that although the Airport is Code 2, it has dispensation to allow some code 3 aircraft types in, including the A318. Infrastructure growth is driven not only by the desire to raise peak capacity, but by new generation aircraft, such as the C-Series, rather than more of the current generation E170/E190, which , although limited to certain stands, can be handled relatively easily at present.

As for construction times, delivery of the key airside infrastructure will be completed by 2021, with part of the length of time explainable by the complexities of piling into the dock, and fitting that around aircraft ops. The rest of it is explained by programme timing to meet demand, in the near term, releasing some peak capacity will allow a growth in off-peak too, as there is a degree of equilibrium between them.

And for the user asking about "why don't they just fill in the dock, it is man-made anyway?", the answer is that they have developed an ecological system over the years and the desire, rightly so, is to preserve that as best possible.

[Edited 2015-02-06 03:21:20]
 
skipness1E
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:16 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 23):
They need a longer runway,

Not possible sadly in that location due to obstacle clearance issues.
 
skipness1E
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:19 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 31):
I think BA can make a nice TATL/mid range O&D hub in LCY with the A318 and/or CSeries, stretching from IAD to DME or DXB. And this is a good way to start.

Highly unlikely given the restricitons on runway length. IAD is not a financial services hub, the LCY-JFK only works as it's a bankers shuttle.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 35):
They would need to remove a lot of buildings from the approaches in order to utilise any runway extension. Its just not going to happen.

That would be Canary Wharf....soooooo I'm gonna say no.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:35 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 35):
They would need to remove a lot of buildings from the approaches in order to utilise any runway extension. Its just not going to happen.

That would be Canary Wharf....soooooo I'm gonna say no.

Do you think the implosion of the towers would feature on the 6pm news ?
  
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 35):
"probably" ? the A318 manages it twice a day at present into LCY

This comment should be taken in the context of the A318's modifications: The A318 could probably manage a 5.5 degree approach without these, but not in combination with a 1,319m LDA.

Quoting rdc1000 (Reply 36):
I think you may be eating these words within a couple of years, based on things I understand the airlines are seeking from the Airport.

Not in regards to the A319 - unless Airbus plan to apply JATO to it! As I've stated many times on this forum, it is the CS300 which, if/when certified for operations at LCY, will be the game changer in that aircraft size. The A319 does not have the performance to operate at LCY, Airbus looked at certifying it in conjunction with the A318 certification, but ruled the possibility out.

Quoting rdc1000 (Reply 36):
Do bear in mind that although the TORA is 1199m, the TODA and ASDA are longer in both directions and carriers are unlikely to want to use these aircraft for much more than relatively short hops (maybe CDG/AMS/ZRH), and load factors will always be slightly lighter because of the need to maintain flexible ticketing, along with relatively low levels of heavy hold baggage compared to conventional services.

LCY is an airport I'm highly familiar with. Short hops or not, the A319 isn't a suitable aircraft and the NEO version will not change this.


Dan  
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SCQ83
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
That would be Canary Wharf....soooooo I'm gonna say no.

That is something I don't understand about LCY... can't planes just land and take off only from the East (and not from Central London like they do today as well?) The area on the other side of the river is barely built!

Quoting jghastings (Reply 28):
The Sir Steve Redgrave Bridge is the key road link out of the eastern end of North Woolwich, and is currently the main route to the Woolwich Ferry service from the A406 North Circular Road (this is a road traffic ferry, and the last available crossing of the Thames between the Blackwall Tunnel to the west and the M25 motorway way way way to the east)

I really can't see the deal with tunneling that bridge. It seems like there is plenty of space around. I mean it is not the Eurotunnel  
 
scouseflyer
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:27 pm

I know that the BA A318s are relatively young but I wonder what the future holds as there's not likely to be a A318neo
 
skipness1E
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 41):
That is something I don't understand about LCY... can't planes just land and take off only from the East (and not from Central London like they do today as well?) The area on the other side of the river is barely built!

Landing on a runway THAT short with a tailwind? Dear God no thanks!
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 41):

I really can't see the deal with tunneling that bridge. It seems like there is plenty of space around. I mean it is not the Eurotunnel  

Tunneling here would be a major challenge due to the proximity of the River Thames and the area being heavily developed. Tunnels need access slip roads, if you look upstream at the Blackwall tunnel you can see that they emerge quite a way away from the river.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 41):
That is something I don't understand about LCY... can't planes just land and take off only from the East (and not from Central London like they do today as well?) The area on the other side of the river is barely built!

Modern planes are less susceptible to wind direction than their predecessors, in this case however the combination of a short runway and the prevailing wind being from the West would make LCY completely unworkable. It would be an uncomfortable task for any commercial pilot to sit at the end of a 5000 foot runway with a 30 knot tail wind, knowing that they would be 60 knots better off sitting at the other end.
 
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hilram
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 42):
I know that the BA A318s are relatively young but I wonder what the future holds as there's not likely to be a A318neo

Bombardier CS300? Embraer 195? Sukhoi SSJ? This could be fun!
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
jghastings
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 41):
I really can't see the deal with tunneling that bridge.

Bear in mind that at the southern end there is already a tunnel in the way, namely the DLR section from King George V to Woolwich Arsenal. The Crossrail tunnel that's being dug across the Thames there may also cause a subterranean obstruction.

If you could take all the land used for the bridge approach ramps you might be able to get somewhere (although I think the DLR tunnel is right there - it goes directly east from King George V before turning to the south), but as I stated earlier that bridge is an important link that would have to be maintained. Closing it, demolishing it and then spending several years building the replacement tunnel is just not an option.

The land on the eastern side of the bridge is currently the subject of pre-planning works for new housing developments. I also think the existing apartment blocks around Basin Approach would just be too close to an extended runway for it to be viable. Demolishing those would, I think, displace more dwelling stock than a third runway at Heathrow.
 
threepoint
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 35):
the reality however is that its an operational airport already operating near to capacity, which is open 6 days a week, and is in the middle of one of the Worlds major cities. Newham Council has imposed 131 conditions on the planning permission in order to safeguard local residents, ranging from restrictions in the number of flights to what hours the piledrivers can work. Additionally the permission is subject to approval by both the Mayor of London and the Govt.

I see no restrictions you've mentioned that prevent the project from being built in a regular amount of time. The only one even relevant in your example would be the piledrivers during acceptable hours restriction, but surely they can hammer in the requisite number in short order even if limited to 12 hours per day? As I stated before, this isn't a technically complex project I'm sure.
Whatever, if it takes 'em 8 years, so be it. It really can't be that much of a pressing issue for them in that case.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
Highly unlikely given the restricitons on runway length. IAD is not a financial services hub, the LCY-JFK only works as it's a bankers shuttle.

Insure Washington DC to London is one of the most trafficked routes for diplomats in the world. And DXB is a huge financial center; weren't there rumors of LCY-DXB at one point? Moscow is also a financial center, but I'm pretty sure no one from the western world is thinking of adding new service to Russia ATM.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: London City LCY Expansion Gets Go-ahead

Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:04 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 47):
I see no restrictions you've mentioned that prevent the project from being built in a regular amount of time.

if you can't see any restrictions you have completely failed to understand the extent of the proposed works and the site location/restraints.
LCY presently uses every inch of space available to it and is surrounded by disused docks, roads, a light railway and housing. The Western parking stands are only 50 yards from the nearest houses and thats with a road and a railway in the space between them.
They propose to completely rebuild the entire airport with no reduction in the number of flights or passengers.

Doesn't look so easy now, does it ?

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