With WN buying out UAs gates in DAL, what does this mean for United in the DFW Metroplex? Will they upgauge flights to more two-class RJs and even more mainline on IAH-DFW?

Supposedly there was "big plans" for UA in DAL, but those are obviously being shot down. Was DAL just not performing that well for UA? Conversely, how is AA doing on DFW-HOU?

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter): Supposedly there was "big plans" for UA in DAL, but those are obviously being shot down. Was DAL just not performing that well for UA? Conversely, how is AA doing on DFW-HOU?

From what Ive heard, the long term plan for DFW-HOU is to be all CR9. Currently, its a mix of mainline, CR9, and ER4.

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter): With WN buying out UAs gates in DAL, what does this mean for United in the DFW Metroplex? Will they upgauge flights to more two-class RJs and even more mainline on IAH-DFW?

We saw this coming from a mile away. Eventually, I would not be surprised if WN finds a way to get rid of VX at DAL and DAL becomes a one airline airport. But that might take a while.

At the end of the day, Dallas is just a spoke to UA just as Houston is to AA. There is a small following of corporate contracts (UA has the Sabre contract), but Its just not important enough a market to really try to fight off WN at DAL for UA.

Everyone thought DAL would be the end all be all of Dallas aviation once it opened up. Turns out, that isnt nearly the case.

I doubt if there EVER plans for DAL.
If there Were? We'd have had it jammed down out throats at work. with why we're doing DAL instead of expanding at DFW where most of us would have bet on.
I REALLY think DAL was a tactical move designed to bring WN to the table over those EWR gates and slots .
And Evidently I was Right. We're doing Ok in DFW and I think we could do even More were we to put the resources behind it. .
Frankly? I don't think we have the planes for expansion at DFW. Maybe if we get the 30 A319's from China that's rumored to be happening. or the E175's come rolling in.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 2): I REALLY think DAL was a tactical move designed to bring WN to the table over those EWR gates and slots .

What??? Sure, of course. Continental started serving DAL in 1998 so that a post-merged United could get more slots at Newark 17 years later.  

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 1): From what Ive heard, the long term plan for DFW-HOU is to be all CR9. Currently, its a mix of mainline, CR9, and ER4.

Do you mean CR7's? Because that'd be kind of a letdown for me. Better than the ERJ's, of course, but DFW-IAH on a 737-800 has typically been an easy upgrade for me!

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3): Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 2): I REALLY think DAL was a tactical move designed to bring WN to the table over those EWR gates and slots . What???

I think he was talking about that there may have been some negotiations for WN to gain the DAL gates and UA gets EWR slots in return.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 2): I REALLY think DAL was a tactical move designed to bring WN to the table over those EWR gates and slots .

but there are/were no EWR slots involved with the DAL long-term lease.

DFW is one of UAs larger stations actually close to 40 a day. Consider it a miracle that all destinations except LAX see some mainline frequencies. EWR is down to just one mainline right now.

And what's up with those Chinese 319s? Just a rumor?

maybe i'm in the minority here, but i'm really pissed off about this UA decision to pull the plug on dal-iah.

perhaps this stems from my perpetual discordance from united after i dumped them last year following a string of bad experiences and the devaluation of their loyalty program. but cutting dal-iah is just such a sham. they can't. compete. anywhere.

but yes, if that was a strategic move to ward off VX, so be it. I still am appalled that they just give up markets like that, where CO was the one airline that could make DAL work.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 7): they can't. compete. anywhere.

So cutting 6 daily E145 RJ flights and you come up with *this* conclusion ?

Quoting a380787 (Reply 8): So cutting 6 daily E145 RJ flights and you come up with *this* conclusion ?

ill readily admit it was hyperbolic. but c'mon. this route was hugely popular.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 9): ill readily admit it was hyperbolic. but c'mon. this route was hugely popular.

It did have a core faithful following but judging from 6xE145s for the longest time, the popularity has been steady/stagnant

(The spike to 12x doesn't count because that was used primarily to drive DL out)

WN absolutely owns the market, while AA maintains a significant advantage over UA/CO on this city pair.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3): Do you mean CR7's? Because that'd be kind of a letdown for me. Better than the ERJ's, of course, but DFW-IAH on a 737-800 has typically been an easy upgrade for me!

I was talking about AA not UA. AA will eventually have all CR9 on DFW-HOU.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 10): WN absolutely owns the market, while AA maintains a significant advantage over UA/CO on this city pair.

It's ironic, though, because it didn't used to be this way. Certainly through the 1990s and frankly all the way into the 2000s, both AA and Continental scheduled all- or nearly-all-mainline between DFW and IAH, and both had multiple daily ERJs to the other city's alternative airport (AA to HOU, Continental to DAL). But for whatever reason, by this summer, AA will be up to 10x daily DFW-IAH (all mainline) plus 10x daily DFW-HOU (all but one on 2-class CRJ700/900) while United will - at least as of today's published schedule - be down to just 9x daily DFW-IAH (2 mainline + 7 2-class CRJ700/EMB175).

Quoting commavia (Reply 12): But for whatever reason, by this summer, AA will be up to 10x daily DFW-IAH (all mainline) plus 10x daily DFW-HOU (all but one on 2-class CRJ700/900) while United will - at least as of today's published schedule - be down to just 9x daily DFW-IAH (2 mainline + 7 2-class CRJ700/EMB175).

We keep hearing how "business passengers" "prefer" the E75s over mainline ... of course until the rhetoric doesn't fit the agenda, then mainline trumps E-jets once again

   

Quoting a380787 (Reply 13): We keep hearing how "business passengers" "prefer" the E75s over mainline ... of course until the rhetoric doesn't fit the agenda, then mainline trumps E-jets once again

   is right.

I don't know who said that "business passengers prefer the E75s over mainline" - certainly not me. I have repeatedly said that business passengers - and, I suspect, just about all passengers - prefer EMB175s over EMB145s or CRJ200s.

But what I'm also saying - in response to the comment about AA having a "significant advantage" in this market - is that while it's true AA today appears to have such an advantage (>2.5x as many seats as United by July), it didn't used to be this way, and I find that turn of events notable. Even as recently as the mid-2000s, the capacity of AA and Continental between DFW metro and HOU metro seemed far more evenly matched than it soon will be, and AA did not - back then - seem to have quite the "significant advantage" it now does.

I think it is E70/75 over E 35/45 and CRJ. The only thing that may trump mainline is the 2x2 Econ configuration. No middle seats is nice.

Quoting commavia (Reply 14): But what I'm also saying - in response to the comment about AA having a "significant advantage" in this market - is that while it's true AA today appears to have such an advantage (>2.5x as many seats as United by July), it didn't used to be this way, and I find that turn of events notable. Even as recently as the mid-2000s, the capacity of AA and Continental between DFW metro and HOU metro seemed far more evenly matched than it soon will be, and AA did not - back then - seem to have quite the "significant advantage" it now does.

After PMCO shut down their DEN hub, IAH was pretty much the only hub for bulk of the nation. Now with much better placed mid-con hubs such as ORD & DEN, the need to route EVERYTHING through IAH is diminished. AA+US hasn't begun their network rationalization in any meaningful way. Once that commences, routes that have been 2000x daily "as recently as xyz" all of a sudden would see rationalization and right-sizing.

"As recently as mid-2000s", CO had to route SEA-IAH-DFW, period. Now UA+CO can do SEA-DEN-DFW for only 0.3% longer distance than nonstop. On the flip side, AA now adds SEA-PHX-IAH, which doesn't save anything over routing through DFW.

AA gives all the love to DFW over ORD while UA very much balances IAH and ORD 50/50. There's no right or wrong - just a business decision. For every case you point to DFW superior to IAH, I can probably just as easily find one at ORD, so there's no point to this.

"There's no point to this." Something I can agree with.   

Quoting commavia (Reply 17): "There's no point to this." Something I can agree with.

Yes ... coming from the person who first started the frequency measuring contest. "AA 10x mainline UA 9x mostly regional UA stinks ....)

Quoting irishayes (Reply 7): maybe i'm in the minority here, but i'm really pissed off about this UA decision to pull the plug on dal-iah. perhaps this stems from my perpetual discordance from united after i dumped them last year following a string of bad experiences and the devaluation of their loyalty program. but cutting dal-iah is just such a sham. they can't. compete. anywhere. but yes, if that was a strategic move to ward off VX, so be it. I still am appalled that they just give up markets like that, where CO was the one airline that could make DAL work.

We can be a minority of two, then. I, for one, stuck with CO and UA even when it became inconvenient because of access to DAL. Now, considering that Southwest doesn't fly to ANC and presumably won't any time soon, and Virgin is kind of a niche airline, I may never have the opportunity to fly to DAL again. Very frustrating.
Additionally, it's routinely $100-$120 cheaper for me to rent a car at DAL than at DFW.
If I had another option, that I felt secure about (i.e., NOT Delta), I'd drop kick United right now.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 9): this route was hugely popular.

Indeed, I've never in eight years been on a CO/UA RJ out of DAL that had more than four empty seats. And yields were supposedly good, on account of a significant number of walkup Y/B/M fares.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 20): If I had another option, that I felt secure about (i.e., NOT Delta), I'd drop kick United right now.

Wouldnt flying AS make more sense for you?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 20): Indeed, I've never in eight years been on a CO/UA RJ out of DAL that had more than four empty seats. And yields were supposedly good, on account of a significant number of walkup Y/B/M fares.

The last time I flew DAL-IAH (September 2013), I was on an EMB-135 with only 17 people on it. Just a tiny nitpick.

IMO as long as United and other airlines keep flying baby aircraft the public is going to choose the mainline aircraft. I would not book an airline where these little aircraft are used. Just my personal preference. WN flies 737s and I will always stick with them out of DAL. Granted I can fly free but I normally don't non rev because it is a pain. I use my Rapid Rewards. I just don't get folks flying on the little jets, heck they aren't even the same airline. Contract flying is a scam. They should not be able to use the "company name".

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 21): Wouldnt flying AS make more sense for you?

AS doesn't serve Love Field in any capacity, so they'd make no more sense than a one-stop on UA via Denver, or on DL via MSP.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 22): The last time I flew DAL-IAH (September 2013), I was on an EMB-135 with only 17 people on it. Just a tiny nitpick.

While I'm sure that happens, and considered saying so in my original post just to head off the nitpickers such as yourself, my experience overall has indicated that the flights aren't typically hurting for more passengers.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 23): IMO as long as United and other airlines keep flying baby aircraft the public is going to choose the mainline aircraft. I would not book an airline where these little aircraft are used. Just my personal preference. WN flies 737s and I will always stick with them out of DAL. Granted I can fly free but I normally don't non rev because it is a pain. I use my Rapid Rewards. I just don't get folks flying on the little jets, heck they aren't even the same airline. Contract flying is a scam. They should not be able to use the "company name".

I think your view on this, though I tend to prefer mainline myself, is obsolete. People click on the lowest price they see. And they complain afterward that they were on a Barbie jet.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 24): I think your view on this, though I tend to prefer mainline myself, is obsolete. People click on the lowest price they see. And they complain afterward that they were on a Barbie jet.

You are probably right although I don't understand it. People spend more time researching their dishwashing detergent then an airline. Oh hell, they are all the same. LOL. Good stuff AA.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 24):

Yep, I flew IAH-DAL often, specifically to stick with UA for several years. I often flew day trips and they were normally packed. In fact I usually saw several pax from my outbound coming back on the same inbound as me.

Quoting irishayes (Reply 7): they can't. compete. anywhere.

They can and do, especially internationally. If WN is beating down your door to give you a sweet deal on your gates at DAL, you do it.

Quoting commavia (Reply 14): Even as recently as the mid-2000s, the capacity of AA and Continental between DFW metro and HOU metro seemed far more evenly matched than it soon will be, and AA did not - back then - seem to have quite the "significant advantage" it now does.

A decade is an eternity in this industry.

I would expect AA to have roughly the twice the amount of capacity over UA on DFW-IAH. That's roughly the difference in size of the respective hubs. Since the ratio is about that large, UA competes well proportionally.

UA didn't want to leave DAL and Envoy even hired more people for UA at DAL two weeks ago. UA just opened their bag room at DAL too two weeks ago. WN gave them an offer they could not refuse. A stupid amount of money for their gates at DAL. I have heard from several sources at UA and WN and all give the same amount of zeros. It involves a number with 9 zeros behind it. Yup 9 freaking 0s. How could UA walk away from that? UA also had to pay Envoy for breaking the contract.

There have also been other issues at DAL. Mostly WN not playing nice with the other airlines. Remember for all of time WN had their part of DAL to themselves and could do what they want. There are two bag belts at DAL for TSA check bag screening one for WN and one for the other airlines. What WN was doing with bags that customers dropped off when self check in was letting them pile up and then dumping them on the belt at once even the other airline belt therefore delaying VX, DL, UA bags because TSA had too many to screen at once. The other airlines led by UA got upset and finally had a meeting with the airport two weeks ago where the airport told WN they can not dump all the bags at once to be checked and they can not use the other airlines belt. WN was not happy with this meeting.

Also WN keeps jamming the bag carousel where customers pick up bags by dumping too many bags in at once. They even completely broke one by having a bag fall out and jam up the gear. Blew a huge motor. UA (Envoy) keep getting into it when WN and UA were using the same belt when two flights came in at once.

Then there is UA and DL. This cracks me up. So for months UA part of Envoy has been complaining to UA that DL has taken over UA break room and using it as their office. Also the DL GM took over UA storage office supply room and used it as his office. UA didn't believe them till finally senior manager from UA came to DAL and saw for themselves. They were shocked and not too happy and kicked DL out. DL only moved out of those spaces last week.

So i think a combination lead to WN getting UA gates. 1) WN wanted more gates at DAL and 2) WN tired of dealing with DL and UA at DAL. They went to UA to ask what they want for their gates. UA gave WN a stupid crazy number that they thought WN wouldn't pay but WN took their offer. 9 zeros later WN gets two more gates at DAL. I don't know how many years this is spread over but with a number that big is going to show up on their 10-K or 10Q somewhere.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 30): The airline I'm really upset with iisUnited.

Not sure why....UAs a business and at the end of the day they make a business decision on what is right for them. While I am sure that it is frustrating to have to drive over to DFW instead of DAL but it's not like UA is pulling out of the market and if anything they are improving service to DFW with a fairly large number of 175s flying out of there.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 28): It involves a number with 9 zeros behind it. Yup 9 freaking 0s. How could UA walk away from that? UA also had to pay Envoy for breaking the contract.

You realize 9 zeros means Billion? There is literally no way that happened. I'm sorry. That would mean they paid 3.5% of their entire market cap for just 2 gates. 7 zeros, maybe 8, but not 9 that is just silly.

Quoting United1 (Reply 31): Not sure why....UAs a business and at the end of the day they make a business decision on what is right for them. While I am sure that it is frustrating to have to drive over to DFW instead of DAL but it's not like UA is pulling out of the market and if anything they are improving service to DFW with a fairly large number of 175s flying out of there.

I was really upset with UA when I found out. I didn't say anything for days because I was that upset. I was in the United Club at IAH when it happened on my way to POS and then TAB. After I found out what WN paid them I understand. I'm not happy about losing DAL and I really have to figure out what I'm going to do. But in the big scheme of things UA would be fiscally irresponsible to walk away from that amount of money. From a business perspective I understand. I'm the COO the company I work work for so I understand them but I'm not happy how this will impact me. Also my time is worth a lot of money and I can't waste a few hours every week going to and from DFW. I no idea what I'm going to do. I have look at all my options and figure it out. I dread the thought of having to go back to AA. It takes me 15 minutes to get to DAL. I know everyone there at UA and I know I'm not supposed to check bags late and other stuff but they have always got me and my bags on the plane even after the 30 min cut off. Last I heard at DFW, UA doesn't even have an Elite security line.   

What really irked me is how fast they ended service. I have flights on UA for the next 10 weeks and I never would have book the ones that are now at DFW. I have flight where I leaving DAL and coming back to DFW. It wasn't until last night UA finally changed my flights over and I have to call to re-ticket. Most of my tickets on UA are paid First. I would fly WN but don't have First Class. Looking at VX, but they are very limited. I can't see myself driving to DFW on a weekly basic. Just not going to happen. I'm think I 'm pass the anger phase. I'm at the WTF am I going to do phase. No matter what UA did I stuck with them because of DAL. Their service to DAL was the biggest reason I stuck with CO/UA. I fly UA almost every single week coming or going from DAL. I'm so heavily invested in UA from credit cards, to miles, to everything... I know how they work inside and out and since 1998, 99% of my flights were on CO now UA. Thinking of having to learn a whole new airline program, rules, procedures, etc is daunting.

I would love WN to start DAL-IAH but I highly doubt that will happen.

My very last flight on UA out of DAL is on 3/11/15. I'll be coming back to DFW. Ironic thing is 17 years ago (can't believe it has been that long) was my first flight out of DAL and first on Continental which I was flying DAL-IAH-MIA (CO) and MIA-POS on BW. Same final destination at my last flight out of DAL.    It was the first time I ever flew on CO and I was in First Class on IAH-MIA. I was blown away by CO service and left AA that day and never looked back. I flew exclusively with CO now UA after that. Funny thing is all these were booked before I knew UA was leaving DAL.


[Edited 2015-02-07 10:37:44]

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 32):

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 32): You realize 9 zeros means Billion? There is literally no way that happened. I'm sorry. That would mean they paid 3.5% of their entire market cap for just 2 gates. 7 zeros, maybe 8, but not 9 that is just silly.

I do and I asked several people are they sure!?! They all keep coming back with the same number 9 zeros, but how many years is that spread over is the question? It's a long term lease. It is 20, 30, 40 years??? Like any lease I'm sure WN is not paying it all at once (probably monthly), but over the life of the lease that is the cost. I find it equally hard to believe just posting what I was told from several different people. I don't know if those 9 zeros include the two decimal points. (They way it was told to me it doesn't seem like it) The only answer I'm getting is the number WN is paying has 9 zeros to it. That is all that is being disclosed.

Like I said before with a number that big it's going to have to show up in a 10-K or 10Q somewhere at WN or UA.

[Edited 2015-02-07 10:33:31]

With AA having pretty much a stranglehold on DFW and still grabbing more slots; I really doubt much "breathing room" exists for UA in DFW....

[Edited 2015-02-07 10:36:26]

It should be noted, UA has officially loaded in the schedule that the flights are ending March 15.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 33): Most of my tickets on UA are paid First. I would fly WN but don't have First Class.

I mean, I don't know how vital First Class is for you but I have no problem doing economy on WN.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 33): My very last flight on UA out of DAL is on 3/11/15.

I'm sure you'll have a great video of that flight!

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 33): From a business perspective I understand.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 33): I was really upset with UA when I found out.

I get what you're feeling. It's like when WN ended LGA-BWI for me. I flew that route quite a bit.

[Edited 2015-02-07 11:43:23]

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 35): With AA having pretty much a stranglehold on DFW and still grabbing more slots; I really doubt much "breathing room" exists for UA in DFW....

The same can be said for any nonhub airline anywhere.

Does UA have its own staff at DFW or a vendor?

I am sure WN gave them a deal they couldn't refuse. I am not sure if it's in the billions but the cost is likely spread out over a very long time. It's not like a one-time payment and then it's done. UA is not a desperate carrier. They got good money for this deal.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 34): I do and I asked several people are they sure!?! They all keep coming back with the same number 9 zeros, but how many years is that spread over is the question?

Maybe 9 figures? That would make much more sense than 9 zeros.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 37): Does UA have its own staff at DFW or a vendor?

They have their own staff, which is a mix of pmUA and pmCO staff, I believe.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 33): UA doesn't even have an Elite security line.

False. There is one. It's poorly marked, so read your signs carefully the first time. But it's there, right next to the third-party "Pay a bunch and use a special line" company, passing itself off as the identical twin sister to TSA PreCheck... which makes no sense to me.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 33): Their service to DAL was the biggest reason I stuck with CO/UA.

Ditto. That, and Star Alliance now. I wasn't ever real thrilled with SkyTeam.

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 33): I would love WN to start DAL-IAH

That would technically be a resumption; they operated the route, into IAH terminal A, up until sometime at the end of last decade.
Anyhow, DO TAKE good video of your last flight out of DAL for us, please!

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 35):

They don't need "breathing room" because they aren't really competing for Dallas originating traffic, but mostly about bringing their own FF there and back

The same argument can be said about any airline at MSP DTW ATL CLT EWR MIA as well

Dallas is way too large a market for any of the legacies to ignore. Even at a loss, UA must serve DFW in some form or shape

Quoting CO777DAL (Reply 31):

Man, if your time is worth money, just take WN. It is not that bad of a airline. Time is money!

Quoting bigb (Reply 39):

It's not that Southwest is bad. It's more that they don't fly to very many places in Europe or Asia.
Which is probably a good thing!

I think Southwest will eventually "simply" take over DAL as they are the preferred airline.

CO was able to make DAL work successfully. Pulling out is just ceding one more airport/market to competition. It is true that UA is running away from competition. The passengers who are using DAL would now go where - to competitors most likely, it is not that DAL is connected to other UA hubs.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 36): Maybe 9 figures? That would make much more sense than 9 zeros.

   9 zeroes is absurd and ridiculous. No way WN paid over a billion. Even 9 figures is hard to believe for just two gates, but if that is true, that number better start with a 1.

Quoting hohd (Reply 42): CO was able to make DAL work successfully. Pulling out is just ceding one more airport/market to competition. It is true that UA is running away from competition

Obviously UA felt that there was not enough money being made at DAL or they would not have pulled the plug.
Just my opinion was that CO was doing okay with the early morning and late evening IAH flights but losing money on the rest. CO had built a fairly good niche market at a niche airport but not enough to sustain double operations at two airports in the same market.

UA sub-leased the gates so they will still have control of the gate at the end of the lease if they feel like they want to reenter the market at DAL at a later date.

Okie

Quoting hohd (Reply 42): The passengers who are using DAL would now go where - to competitors most likely

Go to what ? DL is being kicked out, and AA/US doesn't serve DAL.

They can run to WN if they want with their world-class FF program and extensive list of partners /s

Quoting a380787 (Reply 45): Go to what ? DL is being kicked out, and AA/US doesn't serve DAL. They can run to WN if they want with their world-class FF program and extensive list of partners /s

Well, to carry the most domestic passengers, WN must be doing something correct.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 45): They can run to WN if they want with their world-class FF program

Hey, Rapid Rewards is a great program for me. I take free flights all of the time thanks to it. A lot better than the old program.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 45): extensive list of partners /s

WN has pretty good partners outside of other airlines. Blame the pilots for the lack of airline partners. WN can't because the pilots are holding them back.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 46): Well, to carry the most domestic passengers, WN must be doing something correct.

And how's that useful to anyone ? No international long-haul flights, no meaningful partners, no F cabin, no flat bed, and no transcons from NYC ?

Quoting a380787 (Reply 48): And how's that useful to anyone ? No international long-haul flights, no meaningful partners, no F cabin, no flat bed, and no transcons from NYC ?

Not everyone is looking for those options. You might be, but apparently most are not.