Airliners.net

I know that Hawaiian subsidiary Ohana currently operates a fleet of 3 ATR 42-500's and their average age is around 10-11 years. I understand that the -500's still have many years of service left but would Ohana swap them for the newer -600 if they had the opportunity?

I did some comparison beforehand between the -500 and the -600 and it seems that the newer one has more capability for Ohana's mission; given that it has improved hot and high over the -500 (critical for short airstrips like Lanai & Molokai on extremely sunny days and high temps), higher MTOW, and ETOPS 120.

I figured that should they choose to buy the 42-600, wouldn't they get them from the factory quicker since the 42 doesn't have a huge order book and wait time like it's larger cousin?

The 42 and 72 are built on the same line like 737 variants - neither should be quicker to get

Why would they do this? They would end up spending money for no gain, the aircraft they have now do the job with no problem.

Personally, i think no (at least for a couple of years). The -600 does have better performance with short and hot and high which is a plus, but Ohana is getting the job done with the -500 they have right now. Also, the -600 is $3 million more than the -500. And I don't think ETOPS 120 affects ops in intra-Hawaiian routes but I could be wrong. POSSIBLY they may get some when they want to expand or renew the fleet in the future, but to casually replace because of availability of production? Its a waste of investment with little or no gain.

Flew one LIH-HNL last sumer, was in pretty good shape for the age and was an amazing flight. Only regional flight that trumped it was another ATR flight in a new LIAT plane last summer 

Is there a fleet plan for Ohana? I would think that demand would eventually warrant perhaps a 72 or even Q400? Does HA have plans to keep Ohana at a fleet of 3 planes? Also, does anyone know how Ohana is performing? I am planning my next trip to Hawaii, and really want to do some Island hopping. The 717 is a for sure. I know Island Air is another I would want to try.

Quoting nikeson13 (Reply 3): And I don't think ETOPS 120 affects ops in intra-Hawaiian routes but I could be wrong.

ETOPS 120 isn't useful for Hawaii. ETOPS isn't needed at all for interisland flights (which are no more than an hour long at the most) and it isn't enough to fly to the Mainland (need ETOPS 180 for that.)

There really isn't any point in upgrading to a -600 right now when the -500s are working just fine. The relatively minor gain in performance doesn't justify spending millions of dollars on replacing them.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4): Does HA have plans to keep Ohana at a fleet of 3 planes?

Ohana exists so that HA can serve MKK and LNY, which are too small to serve with the 717 economically. Expanding Ohana beyond that means HA would be competing with itself.

[Edited 2015-02-06 00:10:14]

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 5): Ohana exists so that HA can serve MKK and LNY, which are too small to serve with the 717 economically. Expanding Ohana beyond that means HA would be competing with itself.

I certainly set myself up for that one! LOL! I was more curious to know if there is a possibility that Ohana would grow, to supplement the 717 service?

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Thread starter): I did some comparison beforehand between the -500 and the -600 and it seems that the newer one has more capability for Ohana's mission; given that it has improved hot and high over the -500 (critical for short airstrips like Lanai & Molokai on extremely sunny days and high temps)

Our climate in Hawaii is mild with only a handful of days during the year where we break 90F. The average high for MKK and LNY is around 75F. LNY is a little high (1308' MSL), but MKK is not (454' MSL). The extra performance of the -600 is not needed for MKK and LNY. If anything, the performance increase of -600 over the -500 might make Kapalua (JHM) economically viable for HA.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 6): I was more curious to know if there is a possibility that Ohana would grow, to supplement the 717 service?

I believe that would require scope changes to the pilots' contract. 'Ohana flying is contracted out to Empire and can only operate to airports in Hawaii not served by HA itself.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4): I would think that demand would eventually warrant perhaps a 72 or even Q400?

The Q400 is too much overkill for Ohana's network and mission. Plus, it's not as economical on short Inter Island sectors in comparison to the ATR. Also, if they were planning to upgrade to something larger than the 42, then scope would have to be modified to allow that.

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 5): There really isn't any point in upgrading to a -600 right now when the -500s are working just fine.

But the -500's will get old eventually and one primarily element will drive them to the -600 in the future: Maintenance costs.

Quoting ha763 (Reply 7): I believe that would require scope changes to the pilots' contract. 'Ohana flying is contracted out to Empire and can only operate to airports in Hawaii not served by HA itself.

I believe there are already some exceptions to this. 'Ohana operates half the daily rotations on OGGKOA and OGGITO (2 flights daily each). I could see increased ATR service on similar routes in the HA system.

Maybe we could even see those two routes go all 'Ohana, with an increase to 5 or 6 daily returns? Does anyone here know if HA wants more frequency to compete with the ~dozen daily MW flights in the market?

Quoting YXD172 (Reply 9): Maybe we could even see those two routes go all 'Ohana, with an increase to 5 or 6 daily returns?

And how are they suppose to make up the lost capacity? Currently, HA runs 2 717's daily between OGG-ITO and OGG-KOA. That's a total of 246 seats total everyday on each route. Even with 5 flights a day, total Ohana capacity will be six seats short.

If they want to do something like that, then they need to park their 42-500's and upgrade to the 72-600.

Remember Ohana is operated by Empire Airline, who is a large ATR cargo operator. So it would be them that would have to take on the additional aircraft, etc. This is if HA did not pay for the new aircraft for them. This would have to be a join agreement between the two.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4): Is there a fleet plan for Ohana? I would think that demand would eventually warrant perhaps a 72 or even Q400?

Again Ohana is Empire Airlines and all ATR's. No this would be a new fleet type. So not likely!!

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Thread starter):

As said, the -500s are doing just fine, no red to replace them at the moment.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 4): Is there a fleet plan for Ohana? I would think that demand would eventually warrant perhaps a 72 or even Q400? Does HA have plans to keep Ohana at a fleet of 3 planes? Also, does anyone know how Ohana is performing? I am planning my next trip to Hawaii, and really want to do some Island hopping. The 717 is a for sure. I know Island Air is another I would want to try.

From what I understand, HAL would like to grow the Ohana fleet to 5 or 6 I believe. Right now they need 2 planes to fly their schedule and use one as a spare. They're limited in size of aircraft, as well as as the amount of block hours they fly, per the HAL pilot contract. The 72, if it were allowed by the scope would be foolish because it limits the small airports that can be served, which is the whole point of Ohana's existence.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 6): I certainly set myself up for that one! LOL! I was more curious to know if there is a possibility that Ohana would grow, to supplement the 717 service?

Ohana is already supplementing service from OGG-ITO and KOA. This service is actually raising the eyebrows of the HAL pilots. You better believe that scope will be addressed in the upcoming contract negotiations to make sure that Ohana doesn't end up replacing the 717! For now, they're flying outside the "peak" when flying a 717 would be overkill and is fully legal per the contract. Ohana is restricted by HAL pilot scope from flying the trunk routes from HNL-LIH/OGG/ITO/KOA. If they added more flying to complement the 717 it would have to be perhaps more OGG-LIH, or KOA-ITO, or KOA/LIH. There aren't that many more holes to fill. I suspect they have JHM in their sights, as soon as they can sort out the current issues that prevent them from landing there.

Quoting as739x (Reply 11): Remember Ohana is operated by Empire Airline, who is a large ATR cargo operator. So it would be them that would have to take on the additional aircraft, etc. This is if HA did not pay for the new aircraft for them. This would have to be a join agreement between the two.

HAL actually owns the Ohana ATRs and Emipre operates them on behalf of HAL. HAL would likely be buying future planes for the fleet as well.

Considering that Island Air is only operating at barely a 30% load factor, why would Ohana make the jump to a 60x seat plane? Ohana is doing OK -- not spectacular, but performing exactly how HA wants it to: feed the transpac flying.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 13): Considering that Island Air is only operating at barely a 30% load factor, why would Ohana make the jump to a 60x seat plane? Ohana is doing OK -- not spectacular, but performing exactly how HA wants it to: feed the transpac flying.

Why does HA fly 717s if Island air is barely operating a 30% load factor? Ohana has the strength of the HA brand and network behind it, Island Air doesn't.

Note I am not saying Ohana should acquire larger turboprops- but saying they shouldn't because a far smaller and weaker competitor is doing poorly isn't exactly the strongest argument.

[Edited 2015-02-08 09:18:47]

Well, I don't see HA 717s in Lanai, nor do I see them in Molokai. You also don't see them except for twice a day on the Maui - Kona / Hilo runs....

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 5): Ohana exists so that HA can serve MKK and LNY, which are too small to serve with the 717 economically. Expanding Ohana beyond that means HA would be competing with itself

So far Ohana is operating HNL-MKK, HNL-LIH, MKK-OGG, MKK-LNY, OGG-KOA, OGG-ITO, (according to the HA online route map) that is a fair amount of flying for just two frames, given the scope clause in the HAL pilot contract how many more routes can Ohana add? LNY-OGG, HNL-MUE. OGG-MUE, JHM-HNL, JHM-KOA are the rest I can think of.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 15): Well, I don't see HA 717s in Lanai, nor do I see them in Molokai.

Precisely why Ohana exists. The 717 could not economically operate those routes, so they were dropped several years ago. Ohana allows a return to those markets and hopefully an expansion into other smaller markets.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 16): So far Ohana is operating HNL-MKK, HNL-LIH, MKK-OGG, MKK-LNY, OGG-KOA, OGG-ITO, (according to the HA online route map) that is a fair amount of flying for just two frames, given the scope clause in the HAL pilot contract how many more routes can Ohana add? LNY-OGG, HNL-MUE. OGG-MUE, JHM-HNL, JHM-KOA are the rest I can think of.

Ohana does not fly to LIH and can't from HNL per the HAL pilot scope.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 17): Ohana does not fly to LIH and can't from HNL per the HAL pilot scope

You caught me, I was late night posting, I was thinking LNY, but evidently typing LIH ....  

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 5): ETOPS 120 isn't useful for Hawaii. ETOPS isn't needed at all for interisland flights (which are no more than an hour long at the most) and it isn't enough to fly to the Mainland (need ETOPS 180 for that.)

A 757 can do it with ETOPS 138.

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 5): Ohana exists so that HA can serve MKK and LNY, which are too small to serve with the 717 economically. Expanding Ohana beyond that means HA would be competing with itself

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 16): LNY-OGG, HNL-MUE. OGG-MUE, JHM-HNL, JHM-KOA are the rest I can think of.

Ohama can run airports like MUE and JHM, along with potentially doing city pairs that are outside HA's normal 717 flying.

Island is only running 30% loads? Why so low? Their fares seem pretty reasonable.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 12): I suspect they have JHM in their sights, as soon as they can sort out the current issues that prevent them from landing there.

What are the issues you speak of? JHM sits at 3000 ft. in length and when WP used their now gone Dash 8-200's, they didn't have any issues.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 12): You better believe that scope will be addressed in the upcoming contract negotiations to make sure that Ohana doesn't end up replacing the 717!

Ohana could be the successor to the 717's once they're finished. Of course, they might lose some capacity on HA's inter island routes but they're more economical on some of the shorter routes and can boost frequency when necessary. Also, I wonder if the pilots would be onboard with such a transition. If not, they can simply walk away, no obligation.

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 21): What are the issues you speak of? JHM sits at 3000 ft. in length and when WP used their now gone Dash 8-200's, they didn't have any issues.

The ATR is not the Dash8. They'd already be there if there weren't limitations that have to do with the takeoff distance and something about the approach, not to clear on that part.

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 21): Ohana could be the successor to the 717's once they're finished. Of course, they might lose some capacity on HA's inter island routes but they're more economical on some of the shorter routes and can boost frequency when necessary. Also, I wonder if the pilots would be onboard with such a transition. If not, they can simply walk away, no obligation.

HAL says they have no intention of using Ohana to replace the mainline neighbor island flying. Even if they wanted to, the pilot and likely the Flight attendant contracts would prohibit this. Discussing this point is moot because not only would this concept be a non-starter for the employees, it just doesn't make any sense. How on earth could you use 48 seat t-props to replace a mainline fleet of 18 717s that carry 128 seats? (after the refurbishing, now in progress). Do you propose 50 flights a day or something? I've said this a million times on this webiste when it comes to replacing the 717s... a t-prop WILL NOT be a good replacement.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 20):

Island air load factor is in the 60s.