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a380787
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*Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:32 pm

per flyertalk :

philippineairspace.blogspot.com/2015/01/united-schedules-sfo-launch.html

If this is true, it would be the first MNL to North America nonstop (in recent years) by a carrier other than PAL. The current shortest UA/NH routing would be SFO-NRT/HND-MNL and the current shortest UA-only routing would be SFO-HNL-GUM-MNL.

Another great use of the 787 to launch new routes (after previously announced SFO-CTU, DEN-NRT, LAX-MEL)
 
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Tomassjc
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:36 pm

Yes. It would be great for PAL to have some nonstop competition!

However, already being discussed in the Philippine Aviation thread:

Philippine Aviation Thread 2015 #1

Tomas SJC
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a380787
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 1):

However, already being discussed in the Philippine Aviation thread:

Philippine Aviation Thread 2015 #1

I'd figure it's a big enough announcement to warrant a separate thread.
 
CALMSP
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:43 pm

This could be the seasonal listing for 787 that was being discussed internally. However, no mention of the other part of SFO was mentioned.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:45 pm

     

Amazing what some of the Philippine media dream up of. Talk about putting 1 plus 1 together and getting 3.
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:45 pm

Isn't Philippines a low yielding destination in general?

Hence EK thriving and other airlines usually pulling the route.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):

Isn't Philippines a low yielding destination in general?

Yes, but the UA 787 has a relatively non-premium configuration (9 across, smaller business class section, no F). That, combined with the lower operating cost of the 787-9 makes sense in a way that SFO-MNL wouldn't have in the past with a more premium heavy 772 or 744. Given DL's success in the MNL market and the growing economy there, I think this route would be successful.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 6):

Yes, but the UA 787 has a relatively non-premium configuration (9 across, smaller business class section, no F).

Depends on relative to who.

Rumor is that AA is planning 28J in their 787-9, so if it turns out to be true, would be much lower J compared to 48J on UA's 787-9.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 6):
Given DL's success in the MNL market and the growing economy there, I think this route would be successful.

Didn't Delta just eliminate MNL-NGO and downgauge the NRT flight?
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:56 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
I'd figure it's a big enough announcement to warrant a separate thread.

   there is too much to filter through on those broad-based threads.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
Hence EK thriving and other airlines usually pulling the route.

somewhat overstated. to my knowledge, the only carrier that has culled service to MNL in recent history has been DL NGO-MNL.

MNL is actually served by virtually every carrier from the Asia-Pacific region as well as the Middle East. Sure, the Big 3 GCCs have likely thwarted European carriers from coming to MNL, but most of the major European airlines, sans for KLM, had pulled out of Manila long ago.

From the U.S., Australia, Canada and other markets with a huge Filipino diaspora, the presence of the Middle Eastern carriers haven't had much of an impact due to geography.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:03 pm

Seems to make a lot of sense. They could also use 788s from a route that displaces them with 789s.
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:09 pm

If there is any U.S. airline and U.S. gateway hub combination that could make MNL work nonstop, it would be SFO - for all of its weather-related shortcomings, what an impressive hub.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:17 pm

This is a terrible idea. Why would UA want to flush money down the toilet on a garbage fare market like MNL?
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
If there is any U.S. airline and U.S. gateway hub combination that could make MNL work nonstop, it would be SFO - for all of its weather-related shortcomings, what an impressive hub.

Its not weather-related shortcomings, its design-related shortcomings, but it does seem to be the best place for this. LAX would work too.
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):

Its not weather-related shortcomings, its design-related shortcomings, but it does seem to be the best place for this. LAX would work too.

The parallel runway pipe-dream has just about 0% chance of ever happening thanks to NIMBY, particularly militant in a place like San Francisco

But if you look at Bay Area geography, other than around where SJC is, there's very little land to build an equivalent of DFW, even if you assume no houses exist. It's boxed in by coastal ranges on one side and the bay on the other.

What SFO needs is instituting a slot system in the morning hours where most of the fog arrive instead of over-scheduling and end up with holds and delays on a daily basis.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:36 pm

I don't see it happening.. I'm sure they are investigating it, but it is not high enough yielding to make it profitable long term.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 7):



That is not a rumor. The manual includes the -9 already and it shows 28 BC seats. Again, that could change down the line. A different configuration could pop up later on.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:45 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 8):
Quoting rwsea (Reply 6):
Given DL's success in the MNL market and the growing economy there, I think this route would be successful.

Didn't Delta just eliminate MNL-NGO and downgauge the NRT flight?

DL's only MNL flight is now MNL-NRT but it is still a 744 in the downloadable schedule as far out as it goes. Not sure we can call that success & growth.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting irishayes (Reply 9):
somewhat overstated. to my knowledge, the only carrier that has culled service to MNL in recent history has been DL NGO-MNL.

Didn't Cathay pull out of the market, citing low yields?
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 18):
Didn't Cathay pull out of the market, citing low yields?

I was just in MNL last weekend. CX flew there then.
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a380787
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:06 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 18):

Didn't Cathay pull out of the market, citing low yields?

??? CX still flies HKG-MNL 6x daily with nothing smaller than a A330 (and it's mainline CX not the regional KA)
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:00 pm

Yields are lower to MNL than several other large cities in Asia, but it's still a huge city that drives quite a bit of business traffic, in addition to the VFR traffic that it is so famous for. Given the high frequencies by the Asian carriers (including CX

I think the point here is that modern aircraft that are cheaper to operate start to make markets attractive that were not previously sustainable from the US mainland. Cheap oil (however temporary it may be) also helps.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:49 pm

The idea UA would use a 787-9 with 48 J class seats from SFO to MNL nonstop is wait a minute, wait a minute a joke, right ? Manila is a low, low, low yield market, not going to happen. Maybe with a 777-200ER with an all economy configuration.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:03 pm

This route seems best served with daily and seasonal double-daily service on PR. United surely has better use of this asset in a different market.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Amazing what some of the Philippine media dream up of. Talk about putting 1 plus 1 together and getting 3.

Slow news day? Scribes have to earn a living too and media need to sell papers (or bandwidth).

Quoting rwsea (Reply 6):

Yes, but the UA 787 has a relatively non-premium configuration (9 across, smaller business class section, no F). That, combined with the lower operating cost of the 787-9 makes sense in a way that SFO-MNL wouldn't have in the past with a more premium heavy 772 or 744.

Apart from the launch being merely a rumor, the equipment itself is also indefinite. If anything, I'd expect a few refurbished and reconfigured 77Ls to be put on this low-yielding route, and the brand new 789s substituted to where those left. The combination of paid-up airframes and cheap fuel (albeit limited) could make it work where it hadn't before.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 22):
The idea UA would use a 787-9 with 48 J class seats from SFO to MNL nonstop is wait a minute, wait a minute a joke, right ? Manila is a low, low, low yield market, not going to happen. Maybe with a 777-200ER with an all economy configuration.

         Per Aviation Week UA now have a few of the latter, but two-class.


Quoting irishayes (Reply 9):
there is too much to filter through on those broad-based threads.

OTOH, these subject specific threads (especially Philippine related) tend to be short-lived.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
This is a terrible idea. Why would UA want to flush money down the toilet on a garbage fare market like MNL?

Why indeed? Quite difficult reconciling that with the fact that PR charges the highest fares to these shores. Maybe this would explain it.....

Quoting 777ord (Reply 15):
I don't see it happening.. I'm sure they are investigating it, but it is not high enough yielding to make it profitable long term.




[Edited 2015-02-06 15:54:55]
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LAXintl
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 22):
The idea UA would use a 787-9 with 48 J class seats from SFO to MNL nonstop is wait a minute, wait a minute a joke, right ?

  

The 789 is one of United's most premium heavy aircraft - 20% of seats are up front.

Compare this to 18% on the 3-class 777 and 17% on the 744.
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S75752
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:56 pm

That would be absolutely bizarre. I'm all for SFO getting new service, but MNL? I can't help but question if they really could squeeze in there, given PR already has its 77W's on that.

I suppose that the possibility would be there since PR doesn't have a codeshare partner in SFO, so UA would mostly focus on the USA connecting traffic. But I'd honestly think the easiest move would just be to you know codeshare with PR. I guess that could make BR a bit angry, though.

If they were to do it I think it'd be a 788 not a 789.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
Isn't Philippines a low yielding destination in general?

It is primarily a VFR destination but with a VERY loyal customer basis. People are very family-oriented and they enjoy spending the money to return with HUGE amounts of gifts for friends and family. I used to like to watch the check-in desks at JFK with the monster boxes and the people trying to negotiate their way out of excess baggage fees.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 6):
Yes, but the UA 787 has a relatively non-premium configuration (9 across, smaller business class section, no F). That, combined with the lower operating cost of the 787-9 makes sense in a way that SFO-MNL wouldn't have in the past with a more premium heavy 772 or 744. Given DL's success in the MNL market and the growing economy there, I think this route would be successful.

It has always been successful load wise. Not sure about the profit side. For many years it was a tag on out of NRT and then they added the same to MNL from NGO, primarily to keep from paying RON fees that were very expensive. They would alternate between TPE and MNL seasonally. Flights were always full--it is my own belief that was what made DTW-NGO successful. There was some "motor traffic" between the two cities in the BC cabin but YC was full of families. Really nice passengers that fed us with goodies from home.

MNL is one of the prime desired layover destinations for flight attendants and pilots. A gorgeous 5-star hotel with incredible shopping within walking distance, excellent restaurants and the ladies enjoy the pampering sessions with massages and manicures. They guys like the cheap great haircuts and good food and attentive service from people that seem to really enjoy their work.

[Edited 2015-02-06 19:08:49]
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:11 am

I agree that MNL does seem like a strange choice, but if there was one airline with one aircraft type at one hub that could pull this off, it is UA out of SFO.
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MaverickM11
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:31 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 5):
Hence EK thriving and other airlines usually pulling the route.

I don't know that any of the ME3 are thriving in the Philippines; it looks more like a blood bath with seats way up. Philippine carriers have expanded aggressively into the Middle East and beyond, and they have the point of sale advantage. It's an interesting market to watch.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 27):
For many years it was a tag on out of NRT and then they added the same to MNL from NGO,

I thought NW did 747 mx in MNL?

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 24):
Why indeed? Quite difficult reconciling that with the fact that PR charges the highest fares to these shores. Maybe this would explain it.....

  From where? US carriers have much higher average fares to MNL but they also have far more latitude to filter out the lowest yielding traffic
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warden145
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:47 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 14):
What SFO needs is instituting a slot system in the morning hours where most of the fog arrive instead of over-scheduling and end up with holds and delays on a daily basis.

I would argue that, if a slot system were to be implemented (and, unless by some miracle the NIMBY's/environmentalists actually allow landfill to build another runway, I think it's going to be necessary sooner or later), it would need to be throughout the day. The fog is the worst in the morning, but it can become a factor at night also...and, when there's inclement weather (like there is right now), you end up with problems at all times of the day. 24/7 probably isn't necessary, but I would say that between 07:00 and 23:00 would be needed...

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):
I'd figure it's a big enough announcement to warrant a separate thread.
Quoting irishayes (Reply 9):
   there is too much to filter through on those broad-based threads.

Agreed completely...frankly, I never understood those who think that a broad-topic "catch-all" thread should be the only place for information like this to be posted. I rather doubt the majority of the people who follow these forums have the time to read every post in every thread...IMHO something like this is certainly worthy of its own thread. Besides, having a separate thread for this topic might make it easier to find, keeping people from starting multiple threads on the same topic (with all the complaining that invariably follows)...
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:52 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 28):
I agree that MNL does seem like a strange choice, but if there was one airline with one aircraft type at one hub that could pull this off, it is UA out of SFO.

A bit extreme of me to say but I'd rather just have PR get assimilated in to *A. Somehow, I'm not sure why, they just seem like they might fit in nicely with *A. Something about them just has a *A feel. I can't put my finger on what.
 
olympic472
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:04 am

UA pulled out about ~ 15 years ago. Low yielding and lots of monkey business down in cargo.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
This is a terrible idea. Why would UA want to flush money down the toilet on a garbage fare market like MNL?

UA is better off reinstating BKK.
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 9:22 am

I would definitely be interested if they would offer a reasonable fare for BDL-SFO-MNL. But so far the fares originating in BDL on DL have been outrageous. Maybe UA will do better. I do expect to travel to the Philippines at least once a year (with my family) from now on (unless, of course, I end up settling here-I am in Manila at present) and am looking at all options.
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 27):
It is primarily a VFR destination but with a VERY loyal customer basis. People are very family-oriented and they enjoy spending the money to return with HUGE amounts of gifts for friends and family. I used to like to watch the check-in desks at JFK with the monster boxes and the people trying to negotiate their way out of excess baggage fees.

And seemingly, always about 50 wheelchairs.

You'd have the actual stats as opposed to my anecdotal non-rev perspective.  
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:38 pm

It is indeed a waste of aircraft utilization flying a premium heavy B789 on a daily SFO-MNL service which would require 3 dedicated units minimum. UA would be better off using those 3 units to replace the B772ER operating IAD-DXB nonstop which would result in major operational cost savings.

The B772ERs coming out of DXB could be used on higher yielding IAD-EU sectors which would require 1 unit each for a daily service.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:40 pm

SFO GUM would work then transfer to the 737 to MNL
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:26 pm

Quoting olympic472 (Reply 32):

However, the infrastructure is already in place for MNL, so you really do not have any startup costs like you would with BKK.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:37 pm

UA will have no problem filling up the aircraft, but will have a tough time making a profit on the flight, I also hope the 787-9 has a big belly for bags as they will be nearly overwhelming.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:59 pm

So if we take as true the premise that MNL is a low yield market the question really is one of opportunity cost: what other market could UA serve with this capacity other than MNL that would offer better yields?
...are we there yet?
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):

I thought NW did 747 mx in MNL?

NW had an excellent line maintenance station in MNL. They would fix all of the piddly little stuff when the airplane was over nighting like burned out light bulbs in the call buttons, balky oven doors, floppy tray tables. I would leave them pages in the log book and they would add pages more of their own findings. VERY thorough and professional workmanship and would always remain on board while the crew took over the aircraft and reviewed the corrected items with the captain and purser.
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 39):

So if we take as true the premise that MNL is a low yield market the question really is one of opportunity cost: what other market could UA serve with this capacity other than MNL that would offer better yields?

...I would think quite a few inner cities in China or even GUM. I don't know if UA would want to send as premium heavy an aircraft as the -9 is to any of those destinations but maybe a one stop SFO-GUM-MNL might work.
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 35):
It is indeed a waste of aircraft utilization flying a premium heavy B789 on a daily SFO-MNL service which would require 3 dedicated units minimum.

That may depend on when the flights are scheduled, but 2 should be sufficient. UA is flying LAX-MEL, a longer segment with 2 789s. Each of the two units gets 12:15 ground time in LAX every other day. If UA flies the same time as other SFO-Asia flights, noontime westbound and midday eastbound, the aircraft would get over 12 hours in MNL and have time to turn in SFO - it would require swap out with another aircraft in SFO to get mainland maint.

If desired, the aircraft time at MNL could provide a roundtrip to GUM, which now has 11 738 frequencies per week.
 
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:21 pm

MNL has low premium and business class demand, but fairly healthy economy demand and yields. The 787 has lower operating costs than the 772. The 3 class 777s were not right for the market and the two class 777s already had high utilization. There is a chance that the route would work. UA at least has a presence in the market with service to Guam. I don't know how much of a shot it has, but it is worth studying,
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RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting olympic472 (Reply 32):

UA is better off reinstating BKK.

UA'd be best waiting for TG to run a BKK-SFO with a 789, and just codesharing that. I'd bet on that happening sooner or later.


More on topic, sorta... The 788 would do fine on MNL range wise. I'm not saying that MNL would be a good idea for UA to do at all, I still think that Codesharing/assimilating PR would be ideal. Or even neater would be putting a 788 on to SFO-GUM, and just taking advantage of that.
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 1994
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 43):
MNL has low premium and business class demand, but fairly healthy economy demand and yields

With 9 additional high-density A Model 777s coming soon, UA could possibly do SFO-HNL-MNL although at 5,300 miles, it would be at the absolute top end of it's range on the HNL-MNL leg.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 45):
With 9 additional high-density A Model 777s coming soon, UA could possibly do SFO-HNL-MNL although at 5,300 miles, it would be at the absolute top end of it's range on the HNL-MNL leg.

Makes no economic sense. It would basically be a fuel stop enroute to MNL. The Filipinos have no interest in seeing HNL that I have ever seen.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
N1120A
Posts: 26609
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 14):
What SFO needs is instituting a slot system in the morning hours where most of the fog arrive instead of over-scheduling and end up with holds and delays on a daily basis.

No, it doesn't need that.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 14):
The parallel runway pipe-dream has just about 0% chance of ever happening thanks to NIMBY, particularly militant in a place like San Francisco

They only have one Cat III runway, in one direction. Upgrading the ILS systems could make a huge difference.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 1994
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 46):
The Filipinos have no interest in seeing HNL that I have ever seen.

I wonder who's on PAL's daily A330 between MNL and HNL then. Filipinos that went to HNL, decided they didn't want to see and flew back right away?  
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 1994
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: *Rumor* UA To Launch SFO-MNL Nonstop With 787-9

Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
They only have one Cat III runway, in one direction. Upgrading the ILS systems could make a huge difference.

CATIII won't help SFO. The parallel runways are too close together to operate independently during IFR ops. 4,300' feet between centerlines is needed to run simultaneous ILS approaches. 3,500' if you have special high-update PRM system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_runway_monitor SFO has PRM but it's runways are too close to use simultaneously. I believe they can use the PRM with a slight 'stagger' between arrivals. Not side-by-side but less than 3 miles standard IFR separation.

If you're wondering how the FAA came up with the 'magical' 4,300' minimum to run simultaneous ILS approaches, it's no coincidence that at LAX, 25R and 24L are right at 4,300' apart.

[Edited 2015-02-07 10:04:55]

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