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BMcD
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Future Of COS

Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:49 pm

It seems like COS is always on the verge to only have the bubble pop (Westpac, Frontier). COS has long runways and plenty of space (and gates). What does COS need to do to attack more flights/travelers? I know DEN is an hour or so away, but it always isn't convenient with tolls going out, all the construction, etc.
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adamblang
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RE: Future Of COS

Fri Feb 06, 2015 8:51 pm

It needs to have more people in its catchment area.
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Future Of COS

Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:11 pm

It needs to have more people in its catchment area who prefer to pay a premium for far fewer flights and far fewer destinations vs. the drive to DEN. That's a non-trivial problem.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Future Of COS

Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:11 pm

I see UA recently dropped COS-IAD making everyone cx in DEN. As much as I love COS it suffers like other secondary airports. High fares, limited flight options, easy drive to a major hub. Happy to see AS come from SEA maybe they'll start PDX or SAN too.

UA has a huge FF following in the area so if they can't go n/s from COS they go thru DEN (6x daily).
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
BMcD
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RE: Future Of COS

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:02 pm

I really hope we can get more service. I love the service and quick in and out of the airport in COS. I flew out of DEN only because I wanted to fly on the 787 but flew back into COS. It looks like the city recently hired someone to attract more service to here, I hope they can make this a reality.
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n471wn
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RE: Future Of COS

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:14 pm

Quoting adamblang (Reply 1):
It needs to have more people in its catchment area.

check again where DIA is and where COS is from a time and population point of view---you might be surprised to at just how many people are in the COS catchment area.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Future Of COS

Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 5):
check again where DIA is and where COS is from a time and population point of view---you might be surprised to at just how many people are in the COS catchment area.

That brings a good point, since I have read that most residents of Pueblo (further south) choose to bypass COS and fly out of DEN for lower fares.
 
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Spacepope
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:26 am

Quoting BMcD (Thread starter):
What does COS need to do to attack more flights/travelers? I

We need a good strong mayor instead of this Bach clown. COS catchment area is full of people whose highest aspiration is to work low-end construction jobs at best. Those morons will drive to DEN to catch a WN flight. Even use E-470.
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rfields5421
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 5):
check again where DIA is and where COS is from a time and population point of view---you might be surprised to at just how many people are in the COS catchment area.

Still - Denver is the center of the 21st largest MSA in the US with over 2.5 million

Colorado Springs is 79th with 678 thousand.

Colorado Springs is on a par as far as a market catchment with cities like Akron, OH; Syracuse, NY; Boise, ID; Columbia, SC.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:01 am

I'm headed up to the Zoo soon and normally take the UA flight, which I am on again from IAH. It is often RJ from IAH but my flight back from COS-IAH is happily enough now a C70. I've been stuck in RJs a long time on the route. Several years ago there was a through flight HOU-DFW-COS on AA but I have not seen it for some time.

Uncle Sam sometimes puts people on flights to DEN even though they are going to USAFA so that is a tough one for COS.
I head up that way at least once or twice a year and will say the drive from DEN to C Springs is getting longer and longer in my opinion. I have dealt with more and more traffic each time.

I hope COS can grow!
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n471wn
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 8):
Still - Denver is the center of the 21st largest MSA in the US with over 2.5 million

Colorado Springs is 79th with 678 thousand.

This comparison is a snare and a delusion.......look not at a geographical designation but rather where the people are in proximity to where the airports are
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 8):
Colorado Springs is on a par as far as a market catchment with cities like Akron, OH; Syracuse, NY; Boise, ID; Columbia, SC.

If those cities were within a 90-minute drive of the 5th biggest airport in the country they wouldn't have poo for service, either. U.S. tertiary airports in proximity to big airports have fared rather poorly in the last five years. Ask the people running ONT, FNT, TOL, PVD, MHT... where all their passengers went.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:28 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 10):
look not at a geographical designation but rather where the people are in proximity to where the airports are

Proximity to an airport in the US had evolved to approx. 100 miles in any direction is the 'local' area. Even SAN suffers from its close proximity to LAX & SNA.

COS is in the DEN local market area.

The comparison is valid for two factors.

First, COS is a lamb trying to compete with a lion in the same pen.

Second, even if COS were able to break out a proportional market share equal to their MSA population - they would still only be on par with airports serving similar sized cities. The DEN/COS area is simply too small to support two full service airports.

COS will never be able to overcome geography IMHO. DEN is just too big and too close.

[Edited 2015-02-06 19:29:08]
Not all who wander are lost.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
I see UA recently dropped COS-IAD making everyone cx in DEN.

They also fly to ORD, IAH, and LAX in addition to DEN.  
Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 9):
but my flight back from COS-IAH is happily enough now a C70.

Do you mean E70, or CRJ-700?
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 13):
you mean E70, or CRJ-700?

Sorry typo, CRJ-700, with E+ and first! Granted I am single seat A exit (18) on the 145 on the way up, I am E+ on the way back unless I score the upgrade.

On my trips to the Springs I always prefer COS and non-stop flights but sometimes DEN pricepoints win out (I always rent a vehicle at either location)
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Spacepope
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:21 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 9):

Ah the Zoo. Good choice. I love working in the flesh eating beetle colony there.

Disappointed that the AA MD-80 drawdown means a CRJ9 flight to DFW now instead of all mainline.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:52 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 15):
Ah the Zoo. Good choice. I love working in the flesh eating beetle colony there.

You lost me...What cadet squadron is now going by that?

The AA flight Uncle Sam used to book from Houston to DFW to the Springs was always MD-80. Those were the days. it was very southwest-esq IMO getting to stay on the plane ~30 minutes at DFW waiting for the next group of pax.
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SANFan
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:59 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Happy to see AS come from SEA maybe they'll start PDX or SAN too.

I had hoped that AS would in fact try SAN-COS right after they started SEA-COS but I've given up hope of that now.

I think there is definitely a market for nonstop service, which has been tried on multiple occasions, the most recent was by F9 a couple of years ago. Probably requiring an RJ or similar to be successful, AS unfortunately remains the most logical choice to serve the market well. And I'm afraid that just ain't gonna happen.

Unfortunately for The Springs, I think it will be long time before COS sees any real air service much beyond what's there now.

bb
 
N104UA
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:14 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):

I see UA recently dropped COS-IAD making everyone cx in DEN. As much as I love COS it suffers like other secondary airports. High fares, limited flight options, easy drive to a major hub. Happy to see AS come from SEA maybe they'll start PDX or SAN too.

UA has a huge FF following in the area so if they can't go n/s from COS they go thru DEN (6x daily).

Don't forget they also just cut SFO (with no announcement)

The biggest problem of COS is DEN and lack of nonstop flights and the few nonstop flights they do have are on RJs (save DFW and ATL for AA and DL), but you still have to connect if going somewhere besides DFW or ATL. People know they can drive another 90 miles up the road and fly nonstop with lower fares, so in the end the travel time is about the same (if not less). COS is also at the end of the mass population on the Front Range that goes from Fort Collins to Colorado Springs, south of COS there is not much, nor west, nor east. It does not make sense for an airline to go in there when most of the state population is less than a 1hr drive to DEN.

COS is a great airport for FF traffic but not for your everyday flyer (I believe this is why WN has never entered the market) as there is not demand to justify a large WN operation.

Everything at COS went downhill through mergers and downsizing, in the mid 90s (when they built the new terminal) COS had mainline service to, ORD, DEN, DFW, MSP, ATL, STL, SFO, IAH, and PHX, and this is after WP left. UA mainline pulled out (who had the biggest operation) and then with the DL/NW merger MSP was cut and it has continued to decrease to a small commuter airport, similar to SRQ with TPA so close.
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bjorn14
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 13):
They also fly to ORD, IAH, and LAX in addition to DEN.

I know. I was surprised because of the military traffic (USAFA, Peterson, Carson) going to DC.

I assume no one thinks AA will give up a slot at DCA for COS.

[Edited 2015-02-07 10:31:26]
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Spacepope
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
I see UA recently dropped COS-IAD making everyone cx in DEN.

The margins on that route couldn't be that great. When I last flew it, it was on a CRJ7 and it was seriously weight restricted for a 3 hour flight. I think max passengers was 50.
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CV990A
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 20):
The margins on that route couldn't be that great.

It's been about 2 years since I've had to travel that route, but I always found the UA non-stop to be the most expensive option - I always wound up doing IAD-DFW-COS on AA. Besides - 2x MD-80s beats any type of CRJ any day of the week!
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enilria
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:01 pm

Quoting BMcD (Thread starter):
COS has long runways and plenty of space (and gates).

Two things airline consider almost 0% in the determination of where they want to fly.

Quoting BMcD (Thread starter):
What does COS need to do to attack more flights/travelers?

People wanting to go there or people living there.

Quoting n471wn (Reply 5):
check again where DIA is and where COS is from a time and population point of view---you might be surprised to at just how many people are in the COS catchment area.

Trouble is that pesky gigantic mountain around Castle Rock that nobody wants to depend upon driving through during the Winter.
 
klwright69
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:55 pm

There is not much more to be said. There is an interest on a.net for the Springs airport. I love the COS airport. So small and user friendly and quaint. It is a nice little gem. But DEN will be the favored airport with lots more flights.

Yes, people argue that they can drive from the southern suburbs of DEN and that the Springs airport is comparable distance. Except the traffic can be terrible on I-25 and the weather can be very bad in the winter on that drive. It is not just a question of distance. There are other factors. Weather and traffic, there I said it again. And the accidents in the winter. It's not pretty. The Springs airport is on the south side of Colorado Springs. It is not convenient for travelers in or wanting Denver. You have to drive down I-25 even more or down all the lights on Powers. It is not in a desirable location for most travelers. But I agree it's a great little airport and use it when I can.

Another thing, when flying internationally, if I miss the COS flight, say from DFW, I will have to be rerouted to DEN. When flying from the middle east, actually COS is competitive to DEN pricewise most of the time. But I sometimes end up in DEN anyways due to a missed connection. Again, the limited number of flights.
 
commavia
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 19):
I assume no one thinks AA will give up a slot at DCA for COS.

I think the chances of it are realistic zero - not with so few precious beyond-perimeter slots. Personally, I do, however, think a few daily Eagle flights COS-LAX are entirely plausible.
 
boilerla
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RE: Future Of COS

Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting CV990A (Reply 21):
It's been about 2 years since I've had to travel that route, but I always found the UA non-stop to be the most expensive option - I always wound up doing IAD-DFW-COS on AA. Besides - 2x MD-80s beats any type of CRJ any day of the week!

And that's why routes get cut. If you won't pay an extra 20-30% to fly nonstop, then the airline can't pay for the extra fuel and aircraft leases necessary to support a nonstop.

Honestly, if people won't more flights out of airports like COS they have to pay more. It's supply and demand. Small time airports get cut because of geography, but airlines do try and support them if the market is there...the airlines will go somewhere there's a dime to be made, as long as there isn't a quarter to be made somewhere else.
 
geg2rap
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RE: Future Of COS

Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:21 am

As a new resident of COS (and would love to know anything the natives know cool airline/airport related, I have a 4 year old that is way into it!)
COS suffers from 3 problems that don't have much to do with things they can change.
#1 So much growth is on the north side, where DEN is only 10-20 mins more than COS depends on how Powers Blvd is doing for traffic. I live in Gleneagle and the driving times are very comparable.
#2 They are 1-1.5 hrs away from one of the most affordable airports in the World DEN has LCC WN and ULCC F9 and fares are very good at DEN for the travelers. If DEN was more a la SLC COS would be in a much better spot.
#3 Skywest has a mtx operation here. While this probably brought AS/OO and other routes to Colorado Springs, it keeps us as a regional jet airport. While the jobs are good, it puts a glass ceiling on the airport of sorts.

COS also isn't getting the youngest crowd moving here either. The city is aware and doing things to help. Also, finishing powers would be a boost and adding more overpasses to reduce travel times to the airport. Just my 2 cents. Hoping UA looks at adding an E70 COS to EWR.
 
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SANFan
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RE: Future Of COS

Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:36 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 19):
I assume no one thinks AA will give up a slot at DCA for COS

COS is a Beyond-Perimeter destination from DCA so nobody can fly the route until Congress has its next big hearing and (perhaps) awards the route to some carrier.

The last hearing was in 2012 and, in fact, F9 did apply for a route between The Springs and Reagan Airport; they did not get it.

What AA would like to do, or wants, is immaterial in this case...

bb
 
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ADent
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RE: Future Of COS

Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:10 am

Denver has nonstop service to more cities than any other airport in the US (in 2012 - see DEN - Most Domestic Nonstop Destinations? (by point2point Jun 17 2012 in Civil Aviation) ).

I know personally I prefer the non-stop (no chance of missing connection, less chance of a lost checked bag, etc) and I would guess a few COS residents would rather drive up to DEN then connect from COS.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Future Of COS

Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 27):
What AA would like to do, or wants, is immaterial in this case...

As you know they could switch one of their other perimeter slots to do COS-DCA like they did with their SAN slot moving it to LAX (not to rub salt into that wound).
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
FlyingSicilian
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RE: Future Of COS

Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:47 pm

and of course checking in for my IAH-COS flight tomorrow, it is overbooked and they are asking for volunteers.
Maybe another CR70 would be in order Monday morning instead of the 145 LOL
I was told there would be cookies...
 
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SANFan
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RE: Future Of COS

Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 29):
As you know they could switch one of their other perimeter slots to do COS-DCA like they did with their SAN slot moving it to LAX (not to rub salt into that wound).
Touche! Thank you SO much for the reminder, bjorn'.  

You are, of course, absolutely right but I expect the chances of AA moving that LAX-DCA flexi-slot of theirs to COS-DCA are a bit minimal (read: microscopic at most!)

bb
 
bjorn14
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RE: Future Of COS

Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 31):
You are, of course, absolutely right but I expect the chances of AA moving that LAX-DCA flexi-slot of theirs to COS-DCA are a bit minimal (read: microscopic at most!)

And you're right too if AA could not make enough money on a market much larger/affluent market than the size of COS then certainly they won't be moving to Zeb's front lawn with a valuable DCA slot.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein

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