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rotating14
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Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:42 am

So we all know that Airbus has added the 321LR to its NB lineup in efforts to replace the 757W. As is, it is the best aircraft on the market to replace that niche of the market. However, while Boeing has initially passed this new offering by Airbus as laughable, they are now visiting with potential customers (which is nothing new, happens frequently) to see where a plane larger than the 739 would fit in their market. The latest development is that Boeing is considering the following:

1) A smaller 787
2) A new large single aisle aircraft
3) A revamp of the 767
4) A revival of the 757 with new engines, perhaps 787 avionics **


**

Quote:
So some industry executives think a revival of the 757 with new engines—which Boeing also is considering, according one of the people familiar with the studies—may end up being the most realistic option.




Option number four strikes me as the most baffling since it is understood that Boeing has destroyed the tooling and the jigs made for the 757 construction, or haven't they??


On a side note, the 3 major engine makers(GE, Rolls Royce and Pratt & Whitney) are currently supplying Boeing with engine designs.


Here are some major points since I can't post WSJ links.

Quote:
Steven Udvar-Házy, chief executive of Air Lease Corp., the first customer to commit to buy the Airbus A321LR, has long urged Boeing to design an all-new jet to compete in what he calls a promising market. Mr. Udvar-Házy still wants his all-new jet, but given that Boeing now is juggling the development of eight other jetliner models, bringing back the 757 with new engines is “the one [option] that could actually make the suit fit the body with the least amount of pain.”
Quote:
Reviving the 757 with new engines “could make sense” for Boeing, Aengus Kelly, CEO of AerCap Holdings NV, the world’s largest independent lessor and a major 757 owner, said in an interview. He said his company likely will switch some orders it already has placed for Airbus single-aisle jets to the recently announced A321LR model.
Quote:
The most critical and challenging element of reviving the 757 would be a new engine to slash fuel consumption and maintenance costs. Mr. Udvar-Házy said the Pratt & Whitney unit of United Technologies Corp. is eager to win a spot on Boeing’s 757 successor to win back market share ceded to General Electric Co. and Rolls-Royce Holdings PLC. All three are supplying conceptual designs for Boeing’s studies.




A Pratt spokesman said it is constantly working with all manufacturers, but its focus is on completing development of engines for its existing programs.

Boeing is trying avoid having its hand forced again. When longtime customer American Airlines in 2011 bought the A320neo, an upgraded version of Airbus’s single-aisle jet, the U.S. plane maker abandoned plans for an all-new design. It instead rushed to market the upgraded version of the 737 due in 2017 with new engines, mirroring Airbus.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:47 am

In my opinion, the sweet spot should be 220-235 seats single aisle with a range of 4500nm and 135K trust with 787 windows and Boeing sky interior
Aiming High and going far..
 
LH707330
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:50 am

Here's the link: http://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-w...s-to-reprise-aging-757s-1423614375

The article alternately mentions all-new designs and then re-engines. We all know that a re-engine won't work, because the wing is too big and the structure too heavy, and that leaves a clean-sheet. Does Boeing have the appetite for a $10bn new program with no 737 commonality? Doesn't look like it, at least for the time being.

These same points get rehashed every couple weeks, and few things change during that time.
 
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Miami
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Hmmmm. Count me in!

The 757, especially the 'pencil' version, is such a beautiful aircraft. If this comes to reality. I see a lot of potential buyers!

Come on Boeing. Make this happen!

Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
A smaller 787

Can the 787 get any smaller?   I mean, look at the -8...

Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
2) A new large single aisle aircraft

757-800?

Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
) A revival of the 757 with new engines, perhaps 787 avionics

Yes! Dimming/larger windows, less fuel consumption, farther range (than current 757). This is a smart move (If indeed comes to reality)
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
karadion
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:51 am

The question is where would Boeing put this? The 787 surge line post 777X LRIP? Renton isn't going to happen since they're using all 4 lines for the 737.
 
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 3):
757-800?

Or just 757-8 for consistency.
 
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Miami
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 1):
In my opinion, the sweet spot should be 220-235 seats single aisle with a range of 4500nm and 135K trust with 787 windows and Boeing sky interior

I agree. They should just try and beat the A321LR in every way possible.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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Miami
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting Karadion (Reply 5):
757-8

Yup! And don't forget about the 757-9!   
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
1) A smaller 787
2) A new large single aisle aircraft
3) A revamp of the 767
4) A revival of the 757 with new engines, perhaps 787 avionics **

Congratulations. You just described the NSA (possibly.)

Back to my charts. Here's what I think:

The shortest NSA model could be a true 737 replacement, sized in the range of the 737-8.
The mid sized model could be sized in between the 737-9 and 757-200.
The longest NSA model could be sized in between the 757-200 and -300, and would be a true 757 replacement.

The longer two would have uprated engines, which would keep the entire line popular, and reduces the risk of "3 member family syndrome."
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:57 am

If Boeing can make the 757-300 (or similar sized plane) fly NYC-Moscow nonstop, that plane will be a slam dunk. Or at least a 752 sized plane for the above statement and 753 sized for ORD-GB.
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rta
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:01 am

Awesome news  
Would be great to see it happen
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:04 am

"Please do not buy any A321, we may have something better for you in the coming years."

We'll see if this come to fruition, however. Personally, I doubt it. There is some market, but:

(1) 90% of the market has been eaten by 737/320 narrow bodies, that have evolved over the years to become very efficient, and are reusable for many purposes.

(2) Still, there is a market for a proper "between A321LR and 787-8" -airplane. But re-engining may not be enough. And to what extent could the 757 production chain be re-started? And this isn't just about the Boeing tooling, what about suppliers and capacity? Will the engine makers make enough engines for this market for the development effort to make sense. And if the answer is they'll use similar engines from 321 etc, I'm not sure there's enough difference to make the new plane version the market leader.

(3) Investment in a new small long-range jet... with the required technologies. It is a big investment. I doubt the shareholders will go for it. There's bigger bang in in the eventual NSA.

So, I think at the moment the best strategy is for Boeing to ride it out until it is time for the NSA. And possibly spread rumours and talk to customers, which may help some customers hesitate before they buy A321.

Which seems to be what Boeing is doing 
 
jrfspa320
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:04 am

Either way, the development/production costs would be much higher than the A321LR, and likely so too would be the price tag.
 
queb
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:16 am

I'm a little bit disappointed by Jon Ostrower, there's nothing that nobody knows. Everything is already in this Leeham analysis from last november.

http://leehamnews.com/2014/11/02/boe...57767-style-for-next-new-airplane/
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:25 am

I really hope this does come to pass. I find it difficult to believe Boeing would revive the 757 as a -8 model. We'd probably be looking at either a heavily modified 737 variant (new landing gear, wing, and engines), or a new design. But if they DID actually bring back the 757 fuselage with a new wing and new engines, that would be really neat. But my money is on Boeing modifying something already in production.

As for a smaller 787, i dont see it...because of weight issues.
 
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:28 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 3):
The 757, especially the 'pencil' version, is such a beautiful aircraft. If this comes to reality. I see a lot of potential buyers!

It definitely is perhaps the most beautiful aircraft Boeing has ever built.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:37 am

I'll eat my hat if this is true but.... That would be sweet. The 737-900/900ERs are a joke compared to the venerable 75s. I am so so so sick of the 737 series that it just hurts. The NSA should've been done sooner instead of the MAX. Airbus has a very strong product in the 321LR and if Boeing does nothing in that range look for the Big 3 US airlines to order hundreds of them.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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nikeson13
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:42 am

The market is definitely there with the range. The possibilities of a 757-8(or whatever we want to call it) could be endless.
-domestic replacement of 767
-757 replacement (of course)

And new opportunities
-new opportunities to secondary international markets due to cost savings(JFK-BHX, SFO-SCL)
-gap between A330/B767 and A321/737-900

Could see this as very profitable if its done right, kept within budget, and has no hiccups(opposite of 787 program).
Nikolas
 
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ssteve
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:45 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 8):

The shortest NSA model could be a true 737 replacement, sized in the range of the 737-8.
The mid sized model could be sized in between the 737-9 and 757-200.
The longest NSA model could be sized in between the 757-200 and -300, and would be a true 757 replacement.

I believe that strategically they must do something like this, launching and doing the production ramp with the largest/longest model, then going all in at replacing 737 capacity with the shorter models.

One size won't fit all by any means. Probably different gear, engines, maybe wing... but a common production line for final assembly...
 
IAD787
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:50 am

Haven't posted in a while, but a good time to jump back in.

Here are the options as I understand them through my reporting.

- Relaunch and re-engine 757 (+Sky Interior, 787/737 Max cockpit, Advanced Tech Winglet)
- Shrink 787
- Stretch, rewing, re-engine 737
- Re-wing, re-engine 767
- All new large single-aisle
- All new small twin-aisle
- Increase payload range capability 737-8/9 (with focus on high lift for -9)

Obviously the question of the tooling for 757 has been oft-debated here, but let me set the record straight. RIght now, there is no clear answer. Top current exec say they've still got it, some major customers involved in the 757 program say there is only some left and another former exec around when the program wound down says there is tooling spares that were preserved. Clear as mud, right? I'm trying to get a clearer answer here in Seattle this week.

Best,

Jon
IAD787
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StickShaker
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:54 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 2):
Here's the link: http://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-w...s-to-reprise-aging-757s-1423614375

The article alternately mentions all-new designs and then re-engines. We all know that a re-engine won't work, because the wing is too big and the structure too heavy, and that leaves a clean-sheet. Does Boeing have the appetite for a $10bn new program with no 737 commonality? Doesn't look like it, at least for the time being.

These same points get rehashed every couple weeks, and few things change during that time.
Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 8):
Congratulations. You just described the NSA (possibly.)
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
"Please do not buy any A321, we may have something better for you in the coming years."

  

We'll see if this come to fruition, however. Personally, I doubt it. There is some market, but:
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
..... But re-engining may not be enough. And to what extent could the 757 production chain be re-started? And this isn't just about the Boeing tooling, what about suppliers and capacity? Will the engine makers make enough engines for this market for the development effort to make sense. And if the answer is they'll use similar engines from 321 etc, I'm not sure there's enough difference to make the new plane version the market leader.

This is nothing more than a smoke screen from Boeing. The 757 line will never be re-started for the reasons outlined by AirlineCritic and any future 757 type aircraft must be part of the NSA family.
With the 737Max EIS in 2017 any NSA family is still a long way into the future.

Are Boeing seriously going to develop a 757 replacement that doesn't belong to the NSA family and have it EIS not long after the 737Max but well before the NSA itself.
It just doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny.


Cheers,
StickShaker
 
N809FR
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:00 am

I would love to see a 220 seat aircraft optimized for 2000-4500 nm range. I think the long haul 757 routes are less important than the capacity which isn't comfortably afforded in either the A321 or the 739. Allowing for a mix of premium seats with typical Y seats and that capacity would likely be hugely popular, though much like the 757, very North America centric. Hopefully the 757 will fly for years to come, but I do not see Boeing ever reviving the plane.
 
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:04 am

My heart (and my camera, wink) plead 'yes' but my brain says 'no no no, go NSA instead!'

Wonder if a freighter version would be tempting to FedEx, UPS and DHL? There could be at least a hundred freighters right ere with those three!

Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:06 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 2):
and that leaves a clean-sheet. Does Boeing have the appetite for a $10bn new program with no 737 commonality

I don't think they do considering how bad the program management was on the 787 where they acted almost as if they were building planes for the first time. Multiple overruns, delays and quality issues. And don't gimme the "all planes have kinks" I'm not an idiot and I've seen how other planes came into production and they were not nearly as problematic as the 787. That's a observation and a fact.

However, if you consider they might be working on a 737 replacement from clean sheet, it would perhaps make sense to leave design room in it to upscale beyond the 737-900 and into the 757 category. The real issue IMO is that 737 is such a huge moneymaker for them and it's got a very old design including the nose cone which is from the 1960s I think. They need a new design and one that isn't so fancy and complicated they blow a decade. They need evolutionary not revolutionary design. I'm not sure I'd even put more than 20% composites in a 737 replacement. I would definitely work on the aerodynamics which I am sure by today's standards are not up to par.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
757 Revival

Still won't believe it, until it's lined up on the runway and awaiting test clearance.

This article seems 0.1% conjecture, and 99.8% wishful thinking. Doesn't leave much room for fact.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:17 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 16):
I am so so so sick of the 737 series that it just hurts. The NSA should've been done sooner instead of the MAX.

I 100% agree with you

Clean sheet design is needed.
-Replace the 737 on the lower and the 757 on the higher end.
- Make it overpowered so the hot and high airports will be no threat
-Give it enough range to reach central Europe from northeastern U.S. comfortably

And i think we would have a winner

Boeing needs to pull the trigger first on Airbus before they do it to them again.
 
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rotating14
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:19 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 3):
Can the 787 get any smaller?   I mean, look at the -8...

They had the -3, I'm sure those blue prints didn't go to the shredder

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 8):
Congratulations. You just described the NSA (possibly.)

It's all Boeing but I get your point. What needs to be cleared up is that it could be either a single OR a dual aisle plane or just the bringing back of the 757 with newer engines, larger windows, 787 avionics etc.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 2):
The article alternately mentions all-new designs and then re-engines. We all know that a re-engine won't work, because the wing is too big and the structure too heavy, and that leaves a clean-sheet. Does Boeing have the appetite for a $10bn new program with no 737 commonality? Doesn't look like it, at least for the time being.

Which leaves the only commonality in play, the 787. Beyond your quote, it would make no sense to bring back the old frame work and materials that made the old 757. My bet is in on a smaller 787 (commonality), 2-3-2 seating, 220-240 seating capacity with range exceeding 4k. Include hybrid laminar flow control and were good. Constructing the wing may or may not present an issue. Since all 787 models share the same wing, adding those to a new fuselage shouldn't be an issue since the original -3 had the fuselage from the -8. The BIG issue is producing this type of CFRP is massive volumes to keep up with the rate of production that the NAS would be at or close to it.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
Will the engine makers make enough engines for this market for the development effort to make sense. And if the answer is they'll use similar engines from 321 etc, I'm not sure there's enough difference to make the new plane version the market leader.

Then explain why both engine makers are spending time, money and the use of personnel for a far fetched project that makes no sense?? Pratt and GE don't see a market for doing a re-engine for the A380 yet all 3 are designing engines at the moment for a plane that Boeing is "proposing", which is not even on paper?? Point is the effort would not be exhausted if there was nothing to gain.

Quoting queb (Reply 13):

I'm a little bit disappointed by Jon Ostrower, there's nothing that nobody knows. Everything is already in this Leeham analysis from last november.

Perhaps not. The two articles are different.

Quote:
Boeing Co. ’s next new jetliner could be a version of an old one it stopped making a decade ago.

Facing the slow-but-steady erosion of its market-share dominance, Boeing is weighing whether to replace the 757, a mid-sized jet the aerospace giant delivered from 1982 to 2005. While less famous than some Boeing models, the 757 developed a reputation as a versatile workhorse, capable of flying both shorter and longer routes with two high-powered engines that enabled it to take off from shorter runways in dense cities or in the thin air of high-altitude airports. But the 757s still flying are getting old, and Boeing doesn’t have a direct replacement.

That presents a dilemma for Boeing. It recently has been winning the battle for new jet deliveries and besting its arch rival, Airbus Group NV on the large airliners, but losing share in the market for next-generation single-aisle jets to the European company, whose order tally for such planes exceeds Boeing’s by around 1,000 jets.

Recently, Boeing’s slide has extended in the market for larger single-aisle aircraft that are more lucrative to sell. Last month, Airbus announced its first customer commitment for a modified version of its biggest single-aisle jet, to be delivered in 2019 and dubbed the A321LR. The plane is designed to roughly match the 757, while cutting fuel costs by up to 30%. The A321LR risks further chipping away at Boeing’s share.

Boeing says it isn’t concerned by Airbus’s move. Another new plane already in the works—an updated version of Boeing’s largest single-aisle 737 that it’s scheduled to deliver in 2018—will serve 95% of the flights now served by the 757, said Randy Tinseth, Boeing’s vice president of commercial jet marketing.

ENLARGE
Still, Boeing has begun quietly polling around 30 potential customers to study its options for a jet that is larger and flies farther than its biggest 737, said Boeing’s chief jetliner salesman, John Wojick. Last year, Mr. Wojick signaled Boeing was weighing a fresh design or adding new wings and engines to its single-aisle jets or shrinking the body of its 787 Dreamliner to fill the niche.

Boeing’s options also include designing a new large single-aisle or small twin-aisle jet, or even doing a major revamp of an existing smaller widebody, the 767, according to two people familiar with its studies.

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An all-new jet could cost upwards of $15 billion to develop, based on recent Airbus and Boeing projects—an enormous investment to match what is an incremental move by Airbus.

So some industry executives think a revival of the 757 with new engines—which Boeing also is considering, according one of the people familiar with the studies—may end up being the most realistic option.

Steven Udvar-Házy, chief executive of Air Lease Corp., the first customer to commit to buy the Airbus A321LR, has long urged Boeing to design an all-new jet to compete in what he calls a promising market. Mr. Udvar-Házy still wants his all-new jet, but given that Boeing now is juggling the development of eight other jetliner models, bringing back the 757 with new engines is “the one [option] that could actually make the suit fit the body with the least amount of pain.”

With one aisle and capacity of 180 to 239 seats, the 757 occupied a niche between the two main pillars the modern jet market: short-haul, single-aisle aircraft and long-range jets with two aisles. About 470 of the jets remain in service at airlines including United Continental Holdings Inc. and Delta Air Lines Inc. and package haulers like United Parcel Service Inc.

The new 737 version due in 2018 lags the performance of the 757 or Airbus plane in key areas. Its advertised range of 3,595 nautical miles, for example, is 505 miles shorter than the A321LR’s. And its low-to-the-ground landing gear and lower-thrust engines mean it can’t use shorter runways, say analysts.

Reviving the 757 with new engines “could make sense” for Boeing, Aengus Kelly, CEO of AerCap Holdings NV, the world’s largest independent lessor and a major 757 owner, said in an interview. He said his company likely will switch some orders it already has placed for Airbus single-aisle jets to the recently announced A321LR model.

No airline has committed to buying the A321LR, which Airbus claims can fly 4,000 nautical miles carrying 206 passengers, but 757 operator American Airlines Group Inc. has expressed interest. Airbus estimates it can win around 1,000 orders for the plane, half to replace remaining 757s. Airbus chief operating officer for customers, John Leahy, said new markets may emerge for the jet, such as connecting the U.S. with Latin America or around Asia.

Boeing’s Mr. Tinseth called the Airbus assessment “laughable.” He says there are only 50 to 60 757s flying routes that need the addition range found in the A321LR.

Boeing is still struggling with the high costs of manufacturing its last all new jet, the Dreamliner.

CEO Jim McNerney last year said Boeing had no appetite for massive projects, and airlines, focused on paying low prices, “will not let you pursue moonshots.”

Some past and present Boeing officials say it would be less expensive to adapt the 757 with a modern cockpit and interior and the newest generation of fuel-saving winglets. However, Boeing, as part of its current studies, has considered a 757 revival twice before, remains uncertain about the size of the market, one added.

Boeing bested Airbus in deliveries for the third year running in 2014, but Airbus has delivered more single-aisle jets than Boeing since 2002. Airbus now claims 43% of single-aisle jets in service world-wide at the end of 2014 that were made by it or Boeing, versus 22% in 2002, according to Ascend aviation consultancy. Airbus also leads in orders for the biggest next-generation single-aisle jets by three to one. Plane makers prefer those larger models because the higher prices they can charge typically well exceed additional manufacturing costs.

The most critical and challenging element of reviving the 757 would be a new engine to slash fuel consumption and maintenance costs. Mr. Udvar-Házy said the Pratt & Whitney unit of United Technologies Corp. is eager to win a spot on Boeing’s 757 successor to win back market share ceded to General Electric Co. and Rolls-Royce Holdings PLC. All three are supplying conceptual designs for Boeing’s studies.

A Pratt spokesman said it is constantly working with all manufacturers, but its focus is on completing development of engines for its existing programs.

Boeing is trying avoid having its hand forced again. When longtime customer American Airlines in 2011 bought the A320neo, an upgraded version of Airbus’s single-aisle jet, the U.S. plane maker abandoned plans for an all-new design. It instead rushed to market the upgraded version of the 737 due in 2017 with new engines, mirroring Airbus.
 
n7371f
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:22 am

Biggest takeaway from this development is the 737-900 MAX is a dog. It's been said enough before but this all but proves it.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:25 am

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 19):
- Relaunch and re-engine 757 (+Sky Interior, 787/737 Max cockpit, Advanced Tech Winglet)

This seems very puzzling for several reasons. The 757 is heavy and very maintenance-intensive by today's standards. That also means it needs engines in a thrust range that no one is currently thinking about (40k+). The wing is too short and fat compared with current designs. I could see a re-engined 757-300 with 757-200W range as something that would be compelling for some operators in spite of those disadvantages, but a reengined 757-200W with 5000 nm range would be dead in the water. The routes are getting too long for the capacity.

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 19):
- Shrink 787

In other words, A310 redux. And it wouldn't even do as well as the A310. I don't see this as a viable option because a "normal" 787-8 will look more attractive on virtually any mission except an extremely short one.

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 19):
- Stretch, rewing, re-engine 737

Reuse of the 737 fuselage for NSA, in other words. It would make NSA marginally cheaper, but wouldn't fix any of the 737's issues except payload-range. This seems to me like a step that's obviously way too cautious to grab an advantage, and would consign Boeing to competing only on price.

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 19):
- Re-wing, re-engine 767

Don't get this idea. The 767 cross section is fundamentally inefficient, both because 7Y is inefficient to start with and because the 767 is a bulky implementation of 7Y. A re-engine will just get you a plane that's at a slightly smaller disadvantage against the 787.

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 19):
- All new small twin-aisle

See above.

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 19):
- All new large single-aisle

  This seems to me like the most promising option. Start at the big end, where volume is lower and you can figure out how to ramp up production. Then develop the smaller, lighter, high-volume derivatives. The question is whether there are enough technological advances to make the eleven-figure investment worth it.
 
pythonAvB
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:36 am

If Boeing goes for a cleansheet NSA, would it be likely to have two wing options? This would entail one that is optimized for short haul and gate space restrictions and the other that is optimized for cruise performance and higher MTOW?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:01 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 3):
Yes! Dimming/larger windows, less fuel consumption, farther range (than current 757). This is a smart move (If indeed comes to reality)

In order to be competitive with the A321, the 758 needs:

1) New avionics
2) Completely re-lofted (CFRP?) wing.
3) New engines, which will require
4) Modified landing gear
5) At least an active laminar flow control tailfin, if not the tailplanes, too.

So...basically everything new except the fuselage mold lines.

Boeing would do better to just launch the NSA and run a range of sizes from an NSA-200 (738 size) to a NSA-300 (739/752 size) to a NSA-400 (753 size). They could even consider whether a twin-aisle option might be a better idea (2+2+2) or a hybrid design (2+2+2 short-haul, 3+3 long-haul) might offer operators better flexibility.
-Doc Lightning-

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ADent
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:02 am

AvWk had an article on NSA & MOM in December. New Small Airplane is the 737 replacement and Middle Of Market is a large 757 replacement. No mention of building new 757s.

AvWk's article talks about the two being developed together like the 757 and 767 were in the 70s.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:09 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 27):

Biggest takeaway from this development is the 737-900 MAX is a dog. It's been said enough before but this all but proves it.


The 900ER is already a dog. When DL started taking them I ran the numbers to see if we could get it in and out of SNA to ATL. It was just ridiculous. I could take about a dozen passengers. SAD. The MAX 9 won't be any better, it may even be worse and now Boeing is stuck with a dog while Airbus stepped up to the plate with the 321LR.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:16 am

If they can built it on the 767 line, it would be interesting...
 
iahmark
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:16 am

I think there’s two ways to look at this and restarting the 757 line is not one of them; it would the most uneconomical, after all the 737NG has the same size fuselage and it’s on production, the rebirth of a 757 even if Boeing have the asting molds it will also means updated cockpit (probably a total redo), interior redo, probably a new or heavily modified wing not to mention new compatible engines (probably the least challenging part).


So with this out of the question the 2 choices depend likely on the amount of forethought and how much cash they want to spend:



OPTION A (NSA on stages; 4 versions; 2 fuselage widths; 2 lengths; semi-common wing =root extensions)

Maybe they are thinking on a two prong attack akin to the 757/767 style of common cockpit; there would be 4 versions all sharing the same cockpit and FBW which it would make it quite easy,; the first two with 5 abreast seating covering 130+ passengers –the smallest- and a longer one with up to 160+ passengers ( called either 797-6 & 797-7 respectively or the new 857-8 and 857-9 ) ; the next two versions would be 6 abreast sitting making it a tad wider than the A32X series ensuring they could take the same containers as the A32X series do especially in Europe for baggage/cargo; the smaller versions would be 185-190 passengers and the bigger 230+ - theses ones called 797-8 and 797-9 or 867-8 and 867-9 respectively.

There would be one semi common wing with or without root extensions; without for the 5 abreast and with it for the 6 abreast.
So with this mentality they could work NOW one the bigger two versions (867-8 & 867-9) and offer the top one be called either 797-9 or 867-9 series within the next 3-4 years…The other ones would trickle down within the next ten years or when sales of the 737 MAX begin to dwindle or loose competitiveness.

A few things: the verdict is not out yet on using composites for narrow bodies but I believe it would be cheaper using new Al-Li alloys for the main parts and fuselage and using composites in other areas such as the tail, horizontal stabilizers, floor beams, etc parts that are not that big and that won’t require big autoclaves for production, this will make production costs cheaper.

Also the 2 fuselage widths although it would seem like an extra expense it would give Boeing killer economics in each segment; it would be more competitive with the newcomers in the lower series that are encroaching in its territory = CS series, Embraer E2-195, C919 jet, etc. At 5 abreast it wiould have the advantage over Embraer and go head to head with the CS series but with the common cockpit “Airbus style” Boeing could advertise the easiness into moving up the ladder to the bigger brothers of the family with minimal expense.



OPTION B (737 MAX9 Redo)
The cheaper option would be to redesign the 737 MAX9 for more ground clearance so it can use the A320NEO engines; this would be done by using the 767-400 style of landing gear –I believe it contracted upon stowage using the same footprint as the smaller gear leg, they can do the same thing on the MAX9.

Borrow from Airbus A350-1000 on using extensions on the trailing edge part of the wings increasing its overall surface with the resulting increased lift. Also while they are on it lengthen the fuselage maybe 2-3 rows ( gaining 15-20 more seats) to make it more competitive with the A321NEO/LR.

[Edited 2015-02-10 22:39:31]
 
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kanban
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 31):
AvWk had an article on NSA & MOM in December. New Small Airplane is the 737 replacement and Middle Of Market is a large 757 replacement. No mention of building new 757s.

AvWk's article talks about the two being developed together like the 757 and 767 were in the 70s.

of all the comments, this makes sense.. however it may be that the cockpit commonality may include the 787 as well..

RE: 757 tooling.. much is gone.. it was tired when they closed the line down. Plus the sub assembly shops are gone (now a shopping center called "The Landing", the FAL is totally 737/737MAX the wing line is also gone.. although the new 777x wing facility is probably designed with excess capacity.

my vote would be new CFRP wing, CFRP fuselage with the non autoclave materials, new cockpit inside but the same shape and structure as the old, updated tail feathers. updated engines of course.. however it will never be a 757, just a new plane that fills the niche.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:32 am

As much as I like the 752, that aircraft is dead, Boeing is really making a laughable job in the PR arena lately, first the 100 748 for EK , and then this!

I am not buying.

If they are smart they should be pouring the $$$ on the NSA, specially after the 787 delays and EIS fiasco. PLAN PLAN AND PLAN AHEAD.... stop wasting resources on old Aircraft.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 26):
Quoting Miami (Reply 3):
Can the 787 get any smaller? I mean, look at the -8...

They had the -3, I'm sure those blue prints didn't go to the shredder

783 was the same fuselage size as 788, just smaller wingspan and blended winglets instead of curved rakes.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
747400sp
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:51 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 25):

I agree 1000%, the 737 is a 60's era plane, if airlines are saying 747s are out dated, then they need to say the same about the 737.
 
dank
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:56 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 37):

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 26):
Quoting Miami (Reply 3):
Can the 787 get any smaller? I mean, look at the -8...

They had the -3, I'm sure those blue prints didn't go to the shredder

783 was the same fuselage size as 788, just smaller wingspan and blended winglets instead of curved rakes.

And there's a reason they canned it...
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:13 am

Quoting pythonAvB (Reply 29):
If Boeing goes for a cleansheet NSA, would it be likely to have two wing options? This would entail one that is optimized for short haul and gate space restrictions and the other that is optimized for cruise performance and higher MTOW?

That's sort of what I was thinking. Let's assume (just an example) that it's called a 797, with the -8 being the shortest of the three.

The 797-8 would have a wing and engine that would be optimized for its missions, being 737 missions.

The 797-9 and -10, while having the same fuselage, would have uprated engines, larger wings, and would incorporate 787/777X tech, as well as tech available at that time.

Therefore, the 797-8 wouldn't be outselled by it's larger siblings, since it's optimized right.

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 18):
I believe that strategically they must do something like this, launching and doing the production ramp with the largest/longest model, then going all in at replacing 737 capacity with the shorter models.

One size won't fit all by any means. Probably different gear, engines, maybe wing... but a common production line for final assembly...

Absolutely.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 38):
the 737 is a 60's era plane

And a very good one, at that. What a remarkable history the 737 has! My favorite Narrowbody!   

Quoting iahmark (Reply 34):
OPTION A (NSA on stages; 4 versions; 2 fuselage widths; 2 lengths; semi-common wing =root extensions)

Maybe they are thinking on a two prong attack akin to the 757/767 style of common cockpit; there would be 4 versions all sharing the same cockpit and FBW which it would make it quite easy,; the first two with 5 abreast seating covering 130+ passengers –the smallest- and a longer one with up to 160+ passengers ( called either 797-6 & 797-7 respectively or the new 857-8 and 857-9 ) ; the next two versions would be 6 abreast sitting making it a tad wider than the A32X series ensuring they could take the same containers as the A32X series do especially in Europe for baggage/cargo; the smaller versions would be 185-190 passengers and the bigger 230+ - theses ones called 797-8 and 797-9 or 867-8 and 867-9 respectively.

There would be one semi common wing with or without root extensions; without for the 5 abreast and with it for the 6 abreast.
So with this mentality they could work NOW one the bigger two versions (867-8 & 867-9) and offer the top one be called either 797-9 or 867-9 series within the next 3-4 years…The other ones would trickle down within the next ten years or when sales of the 737 MAX begin to dwindle or loose competitiveness.

A few things: the verdict is not out yet on using composites for narrow bodies but I believe it would be cheaper using new Al-Li alloys for the main parts and fuselage and using composites in other areas such as the tail, horizontal stabilizers, floor beams, etc parts that are not that big and that won’t require big autoclaves for production, this will make production costs cheaper.

Also the 2 fuselage widths although it would seem like an extra expense it would give Boeing killer economics in each segment; it would be more competitive with the newcomers in the lower series that are encroaching in its territory = CS series, Embraer E2-195, C919 jet, etc. At 5 abreast it wiould have the advantage over Embraer and go head to head with the CS series but with the common cockpit “Airbus style” Boeing could advertise the easiness into moving up the ladder to the bigger brothers of the family with minimal expense.



OPTION B (737 MAX9 Redo)
The cheaper option would be to redesign the 737 MAX9 for more ground clearance so it can use the A320NEO engines; this would be done by using the 767-400 style of landing gear –I believe it contracted upon stowage using the same footprint as the smaller gear leg, they can do the same thing on the MAX9.

Borrow from Airbus A350-1000 on using extensions on the trailing edge part of the wings increasing its overall surface with the resulting increased lift. Also while they are on it lengthen the fuselage maybe 2-3 rows ( gaining 15-20 more seats) to make it more competitive with the A321NEO/LR.

The problem is, eventually, they're going to need to replace the 737 MAX altogether. So while redoing the 737 MAX 9 in the short run would seem reasonable, that would delay it's EIS, therefore giving the A321neo even more appeal than it has already. By the mid-2020s, Boeing is going to want to start on a 737/757 replacement gig, and all that money spent on a revamped MAX 9 would come in handy.

The MAX 9, though it's sold a few hundred units, is a Dog compared to the A321neo. To make the landing gear a few feet longer is no simple task. As someone who's very into the 737, just by the way it's designed limits how much you can raise it    I think the title 737 MAX is very fitting for this iteration. MAX passenger comfort, MAX efficiency, MAX reliability...and, sadly, MAXed out.

So while Option B is "cheaper", perhaps, an Option A proposal has "Best Value."

[Edited 2015-02-10 23:24:44]
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
iahmark
Posts: 70
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:21 am

On shortening the 787-8…maybe removing a few frames and/or making the center section smaller ( I believe all 787’s are 3 drums, a center section and the 2 ends but I might be wrong); enough to take maybe 5-6+ rows of seats (45-54 less seats in 2 class config) ; version would be 9 abreast seating in economy with 230 -240 max seating count, use the smaller wing planned for the now defunct 787-3 series or even making this a tad narrower no so much for the sake of lift/gate access but for reduced weight.

Work on the main landing gear, since it would have smaller engines (less weigh) probably try to fit the biggest tires and use single boogies instead of twin ones as they do now, this would remove some dead weight because they can redesign the main landing gear legs with lighter steel /titanium (whichever is used), the only drawback would be maximum pavement loading figures so this may/may not work but if it does it could save some dead weight.

Use lighter seat frames from the factory and recommend would be operators to stick to them to save weight; also limit the fuel tankage…make the tanks big enough for 8 hour block times at full load.

*A workaround; since is composite structure and the 787’s are really wound barrels maybe change the thickness of layering in the composites , let’s say making it ¾ or 4/5 of the normal 787 to save weight but not compromising airframe integrity, could be done since the “frames” in question would not see the heavier weights of the longer brothers.


Just some ideas….like somebody said earlier Boeing needs to really, really, really do a good pre planning NOW and do it flawlessly ; keep the main engineering in-house (after the 787 fiasco) until they know they can achieve a realistic EIS.

[Edited 2015-02-10 23:24:12]
 
strfyr51
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:34 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 28):
This seems very puzzling for several reasons. The 757 is heavy and very maintenance-intensive by today's standards. That also means it needs engines in a thrust range that no one is currently thinking about (40k+). The wing is too short and fat compared with current designs. I could see a re-engined 757-300 with 757-200W range as something that would be compelling for some operators in spite of those disadvantages, but a reengined 757-200W with 5000 nm range would be dead in the water. The routes are getting too long for the capacity.

**************************************************************************************************************************************************
Pratt has an all new Core from the F135 engine That's at 27K-30K thrust without Afterburner (Reheater).
Surely adding a geared fan to that core would equal thrust Beyond the 40K range of the F117PW120 or the PW2040 Commercial and could possibly equal up to 52K Thrust.
GE has the core of the F136 engine but without the Geared fan (as of yet)though MTU has been working on a Geared fan gearbox along with Rolls.
So? I wouldn't say Nobody has their mind on an engine in the +40K range.
They're looking for Better SFC and Reliability than the PW2040 or the RB211-535E can presently deliver.
 
iahmark
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:35 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 40):

So while Option B is "cheaper", perhaps, an Option A proposal has "Best Value."

I agree but also option A is more risky, I would say maybe 12-15 billion dollar investment at the least; it could be done in stages but the planning needs to be flawless and I believe Boeing has its confidence shaken with 787 experience so let's see how things develop but one thing is sure, Boeing needs to do something whether is MAX or NSA because Airbus is setting to be the dominant player in the narrow body for a long time.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:44 am

AFAIK there are no more jigs for the 757 assembly line and the supply chain is non-existent.

No way Boeing will restart the assembly line again.

It's like Airbus would start again to build A310 plane.


A 787 double shrink would be heavy, i highly doubt that.

It will be either a 737-9 iteration or NSA.

Also the market of 1000 planes is to small to design a new single aisle plane.

[Edited 2015-02-10 23:47:35]
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:48 am

Quoting iahmark (Reply 43):
I agree but also option A is more risky, I would say maybe 12-15 billion dollar investment at the least; it could be done in stages but the planning needs to be flawless and I believe Boeing has its confidence shaken with 787 experience so let's see how things develop but one thing is sure,

True, but this isn't a plane Boeing is going to make, sell for a few years then toss out. This aircraft would have a life spanning decades. The 787 development was awful, but the aircraft is perfect now. The 787-9 testing was flawless, and I'm sure the 787-10 will be too.

Lessons learned.

Quoting iahmark (Reply 43):
Boeing needs to do something whether is MAX or NSA because Airbus is setting to be the dominant player in the narrow body for a long time.

Very true as well.

So Boeing ups the ante with the NSA. The 737, as good as it is, will struggle with competition with the A320neo in the long run.

What do you do?

You make a next generation narrowbody that grabs the A320 by the throat and forces Airbus to do something. When Boeing launches the NSA, airlines will be over the moon for it, that I guarantee.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:50 am

Ah, this week's 757 wet dream.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
"Please do not buy any A321, we may have something better for you in the coming years."

Or even "Please stop buying the A321!"

Even if Boeing does go ahead with this as the first step for an all-new NSA, it won't be seen in the sky for a long time.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:55 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 46):
Even if Boeing does go ahead with this as the first step for an all-new NSA, it won't be seen in the sky for a long time.

Yes, but when that first step is taken, the troubles will begin for the A320 family.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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RWA380
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:56 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 24):
This article seems 0.1% conjecture, and 99.8% wishful thinking. Doesn't leave much room for fact.

Isn't much different than most articles here, although the proportions of hearsay & fantasy vary on a case by case basis.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 28):
The 767 cross section is fundamentally inefficient, both because 7Y is inefficient to start with and because the 767 is a bulky implementation of 7Y

From a loading & unloading standpoint the 767 is very efficient, from a passenger perspective the 767 is a delight to ride in, even in Y with aisle access only 1 seat away, at the most.

Of course the 767 being an older aircraft it won't have the same fuel efficiency as the NG 787 or 359, but too many carriers have held them for a long timre because they work well on many various types of missions.

So by which measure are you making your statement? Just curious.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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deutronium
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:57 am

Sounds like this is a niche market with not enough potential sales to justify comproimising any 737 replacement design with a stretch or whatever else it would take to fill the intended role. If they do go after this market I think it would be a shortened 787 or a 767 NG/MAX/NEO/-8. I think if it is designed to be a long range only airliner with that capacity then they could do whatever it takes to make it efficient as it needs to be.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 28):
Don't get this idea. The 767 cross section is fundamentally inefficient, both because 7Y is inefficient to start with and because the 767 is a bulky implementation of 7Y. A re-engine will just get you a plane that's at a slightly smaller disadvantage against the 787.

Not if it's configured as 8 across - for at least a proportion of the cabin.

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