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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:58 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 47):
Yes, but when that first step is taken, the troubles will begin for the A320 family.

Because? You think it will come as a surprise and Airbus won't be ready?
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autothrust
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:02 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 47):
Yes, but when that first step is taken, the troubles will begin for the A320 family.

To start the NSA at this point makes no sense. There are no new big improvements in engines(GTF/LEAP) that would make it a big leap forward with double digit SFC improvements.

A CFRP fuselage and wing alone won't do the trick.

Also Boeing already invested money and resources in the MAX. The NSA would cannibalize any future orders.
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
iahmark
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:09 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 45):
Very true as well.

So Boeing ups the ante with the NSA. The 737, as good as it is, will struggle with competition with the A320neo in the long run.

What do you do?

You make a next generation narrowbody that grabs the A320 by the throat and forces Airbus to do something. When Boeing launches the NSA, airlines will be over the moon for it, that I guarantee.

I hope so and I agree with you the MAX wasn’t really a good idea, Boeing should have bitten the bullet and stuck to its guns and said to the prospective airlines ( southwest being one of main culprits) no go on the MAX; the NSA is the future and wait for a 2020 EIS .

In the meantime they could offload 737NG’s almost at cost, this would have put a damper on a lot fleet planners on ordering the A32XNEO because the NSA would have been better than the MAX and better than the NEO; how much better than the NEO? probably up for debate but better enough for Boeing to be competitive in this segment for the next 20-30 years (that’s how long the A32x is been in the market)….
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:29 am

Quoting autothrust (Reply 51):
To start the NSA at this point makes no sense. There are no new big improvements in engines(GTF/LEAP) that would make it a big leap forward with double digit SFC improvements.

In fact it is a huge risk, today. Should future noise regulations make the open-rotor an option, it changes the whole game. Especially considering the the majority of routes flown by the narrow bodies are so short that the open-rotor would be an option for those.

As long as Stage 5 ( Chapter 14) is not finalized, you can not really start a new narrow body.

http://www.icao.int/Meetings/Green/D...y%201pdf/session%202/2-Dickson.pdf

https://www.broward.org/Airport/Community/Documents/Stage5dec15presentationada.pdf
 
Luftymatt
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:39 am

Quoting rotating14 (Thread starter):
4) A revival of the 757 with new engines, perhaps 787 avionics **

This is the best option (in my opinion) It would be amazing if Boeing decide to do this.

I was under the impression that a 737 series was being mooted to replace the gap left by the 757? At least that was the plan?

Quoting Miami (Reply 3):

The 757, especially the 'pencil' version, is such a beautiful aircraft. If this comes to reality. I see a lot of potential buyers!

I second this  
chase the sun
 
dare100em
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
Boeing would do better to just launch the NSA and run a range of sizes from an NSA-200 (738 size) to a NSA-300 (739/752 size) to a NSA-400 (753 size). They could even consider whether a twin-aisle option might be a better idea (2+2+2) or a hybrid design (2+2+2 short-haul, 3+3 long-haul) might offer operators better flexibility.

If you look at a new-small-twin-aisle the only option which would make sense IMO is a design, where you can squeeze 8-abreast with 17" seats, 17" aisles, 1,5” armrest for short-haul operations and a 7-abreast with 18" seats, 20" aisle, 2” armrest option for Long-haul operations up to 5000 nm.

The structure of the plane and the capabilities would be designed that you can't go long-haul with the 8 abreast-configuration because of too much weight. So the plane would stay efficient on short-medium trips regarding weight (don’t do ag 787 evolution again).

That plan would totally kill the A330 - even the neo and capture the "gap" between the A321 and 787-9 - because the 787-8 will be gone anyway when this design comes to fruition. Furthermore the 737-8 max will do fine all along the road and you can further optimize CRP-manufacturing.

Anything smaller as a twin-aisle (6 or 7 abreast) is doomed IMO.

Of course while being a very good long-term strategy – at least IMO – this would mean 2 clean sheets or at least 1 1/2, because Boeing would still need a clean-sheet NSA by about 2030-2035. So the probability for that is close to 0. It's just my view from an engineer-perspective regarding an optimal "line-up".

The dumbest move - and a total failure at least in the medium run - would be a "reengineing" of the 757-fuselage. That won't work for so many reasons which where stated here. But I could imagine that shareholders and “american-style” management may like that idea...
 
braniff722
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:56 am

Re-tool is such a cop-out excuse. You had to make the tools to build it in the first place, just like anything in life, repeat it and rebuild the, "Tools". Can't be that hard right?

And, since we have the, "Let's rebuild Bad Arse Aircraft" bug bitting us, get cracking on the 727-300 please. Same design, new technology.

Thanks Boeing, I'll be waiting for your design ideas on my wonderful ideas.

You're welcome.

Braniff722 , soon to be, Braniff723 maybe. Although that's weird to because Braniff won't get the chance to fly a 727-300. Now, I'm confused by it all.     
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Faro
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:58 am

Quoting autothrust (Reply 44):
AFAIK there are no more jigs for the 757 assembly line and the supply chain is non-existent.

No way Boeing will restart the assembly line again.

It's like Airbus would start again to build A310 plane.


A 787 double shrink would be heavy, i highly doubt that.

It will be either a 737-9 iteration or NSA.

Also the market of 1000 planes is to small to design a new single aisle plane.

  


autothrust has it in a nutshell...and I doubt a further 737-9 'extrusion' would appeal to customers even with new landing gear and engines...the formidable 737 dynasty is weary and looking for new blood...most likely NSA may be fast-forwarded to limit A321NEO's penetration somewhat...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:59 am

Don't care if it is profitable, don't care if it is outdated/is required or not. My favourite looking plane that I have grown up with daily since childhood. Make 93717317387 more of them, I love the noise and the stick insect shape. Build build build! 
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:07 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 28):
Quoting IAD787 (Reply 19):
- Re-wing, re-engine 767

Don't get this idea. The 767 cross section is fundamentally inefficient, both because 7Y is inefficient to start with and because the 767 is a bulky implementation of 7Y. A re-engine will just get you a plane that's at a slightly smaller disadvantage against the 787.

Can they do like with the 777 and thin the sidewalls for a 767X that has acceptable if not great seat width? Reduce some weight and give it a new engine and maybe it'd work "good enough"? See below:

Quoting dare100em (Reply 55):
If you look at a new-small-twin-aisle the only option which would make sense IMO is a design, where you can squeeze 8-abreast with 17" seats, 17" aisles, 1,5” armrest for short-haul operations and a 7-abreast with 18" seats, 20" aisle, 2” armrest option for Long-haul operations up to 5000 nm.

Wishful thinking, I know.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
art
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:57 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
(1) 90% of the market has been eaten by 737/320 narrow bodies, that have evolved over the years to become very efficient, and are reusable for many purposes.
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
So, I think at the moment the best strategy is for Boeing to ride it out until it is time for the NSA. And possibly spread rumours and talk to customers, which may help some customers hesitate before they buy A321.

Which seems to be what Boeing is doing
Quoting StickShaker (Reply 20):
This is nothing more than a smoke screen from Boeing. The 757 line will never be re-started for the reasons outlined by AirlineCritic and any future 757 type aircraft must be part of the NSA family.

To all of these:   

What does it matter if Boeing cannot compete with the A321NEOLR? It's not like a significant percentage of NB 's ordered will be aircraft destined for long range use.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:37 am

Boeing is in a difficult corner; they have an adequate product with the 738MAX, but the 739MAX is clearly suffering compared to the A321NEO. The only (relatively) quick option is re-engining the 757. And for all of those who say "the tooling is gone" it will be much cheaper and faster to rebuild the tooling than design an all-new plane. But that will take away from the NSA effort, and perhaps be short-lived as well. The best for Boeing would obviously be if they can hold on long enough for the NSA to appear with two or three sizes from 180 to perhaps 250-270 seats (in one-class configuration). But I am not sure that they can without getting their lunch eaten in the narrowbody segment. I personally think, even though the 757 is my absolute favorite plane to ride in, that re-engining it would not make it competitive and the business case for it just is not there. As to the 767, it was soundly trounced by the A330, and even though it also competed against the 757 I do not think that a revamp of it will fare much better against the A330NEO than the original did against the original A330.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
xdlx
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:12 am

Boeing mistake was to make the 737-900. In my most humble opinion, the 738-max should have marked the end of the line for this now revised 6 times version of the workhorse.
 
packsonflight
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:31 am

Boeing is in a corner here umless they pitch all new platform, because Airbus would answer with new wing on the 321, and while they are at it throw in 322 option.

That plane, with common typerating would have much more appeal to airlines than any rework on the 757
 
TC957
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:52 am

Sorry Boeing, you're too late on the block with your ideas. It's an admission that A321LR has stolen your niche market that the 757 filled so adequately in the last 20-odd years.
It will take, what, until about 2022 at least to bring this new plane to service even if they started tomorrow. And by then the 321LRneo will be here and no doubt well established in those very airlines Boeing is targeting and allegedly speaking to now.
Airbus won't stand still if they see a potential competitor emerging and there could well be airframe and engine tweaks by then to the 321LRneo as well making it even better.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. The 787 development struggles have tied Boeing up and they have missed the market for a mid-sized mid-haul new jet since the 739ER doesn't cut it.
I suspect Boeing may regret now not taking Fed Ex up on their request for 90 757F's a couple of years after production finished. Tooling destroyed ? As has been pointed out, any tooling can be re-constructed and I'm sure technical plans were still on computer databases to facilitate this. That order alone could have kept the line open again for a few years allowing Boeing's R & D team to truly update the 757 to the sort of airplane they are only now talking about.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:11 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 61):
And for all of those who say "the tooling is gone" it will be much cheaper and faster to rebuild the tooling than design an all-new plane.
Quoting TC957 (Reply 64):
Tooling destroyed ? As has been pointed out, any tooling can be re-constructed

Yes the tooling can be reconstructed but much more diffiicult is to establish the supply chain, where some suppliers don't even exist anymore.
Flown on: DC-9, MD-80, Fokker 100, Bae 146 Avro, Boeing 737-300, 737-400, 747-200, 747-300,747-400, 787-9, Airbus A310, A319, A320, A321, A330-200,A330-300, A340-313, A380, Bombardier CSeries 100/300, CRJ700ER/CRJ900, Embraer 190.
 
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drerx7
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 62):
Boeing mistake was to make the 737-900. In my most humble opinion, the 738-max should have marked the end of the line for this now revised 6 times version of the workhorse.

Can't agree there, the 900 is becoming quite the seller for Boeing.
HOUSTON, TEXAS
 
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CARST
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:12 pm

Everyone who can count 1+1 together knows that the 757neo won't happen and that a 797 won't happen, too in the near future. Technology just isn't there for the next big step in the narrowbody market.

The 737 as it as, is a ultra-light-frame. Any new design will be heavier, probably even when carbonfibre is used. The reason can be found in the 60s, when Boeing designed a 100-seater narrowbody, called 737-100. So despite a lot of changes, the 737 is still that low-sitting light frame from many decades ago. The A320 is much heavier, designed around an 160/180-seater airframe, with more strict regulations regarding airframe design, no grandfathering here.


But what could happen is, that Boeing really sees the 200-seater market and longhaul-narrowbody-market going to Airbus in its majority (due to the A321neoLR). So they could study a 739maxLR or something with longer landing gear, larger engines and some added fuel tank from the BBJ series. Who knows? Depending on the extra-cost this could be a possibility...
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 45):
You make a next generation narrowbody that grabs the A320 by the throat and forces Airbus to do something. When Boeing launches the NSA, airlines will be over the moon for it, that I guarantee.

Wishful thinking, with thousands of orders by both makers in the pocket they will exactly NADA, just like GM in the 80's they kept making the same old boring cars, till somebody came along and took their lunch.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 46):
Ah, this week's 757 wet dream.

Lets wait for the one next week, where the fish equation is thrown in the mix !!!

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 47):
Yes, but when that first step is taken, the troubles will begin for the A320 family.

Nope because they have engineers you know, and plans, and also over 3000 planes to deliver, and there is no engine that will give anyone a 10% advantage.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 53):
As long as Stage 5 ( Chapter 14) is not finalized, you can not really start a new narrow body.

AMEN, and until they can make a twin aisle or high capacity single aisle that can be used at small gates and pay smaller landing fees, all this mumbo jumbo is pure wishful thinking.

Quoting braniff722 (Reply 56):
And, since we have the, "Let's rebuild Bad Arse Aircraft" bug bitting us, get cracking on the 727-300 please. Same design, new technology.

That would be totally awesome, and with 3 big turbofans in the tail and a clean wing...

Quoting CARST (Reply 67):
Technology just isn't there for the next big step in the narrowbody market.

not only technology, also the market is flooded with orders for current series, and a or B will not go into war because they are very happy churning 40 planes a month for years at a very nice profit.

Just because the 739MAX is no answer to the A321Neo LR, Boeing will not spend 5 billion or more for 400 to 500 sales tops.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
xdlx
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:12 pm

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 66):

Really!? Thought it has been established A321NLR is 3 to 1 in sales to the 900MAX.
 
ThReaTeN
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
Lets wait for the one next week, where the fish equation is thrown in the mix !!!

Just out of curiousity, what is this about 757s and hauling fish? I have seen it pop up a number of times around here.. Is it some kind of swipe against Icelandair?  cool   confused   coffee 

[Edited 2015-02-11 06:21:20]
 
bmacleod
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:22 pm

My    is a smaller 787.

The infrastructure and space needed for a new 757 likely will be too high for Boeing.

But maybe not...
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
S75752
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 9):
If Boeing can make the 757-300 (or similar sized plane) fly NYC-Moscow nonstop, that plane will be a slam dunk.

I think that a more ambitious target but more efficient one would be making a 753-size able to fly ~5200 miles nonstop, headwinds accounted for. Maybe upwards of ~5500 miles in ideal conditions when pushed to the absolute limit with hopefully not too large payload restrictions.

In my personal opinion, a 757 replacement should be a 767 replacement, which could also chisel at the original 330 ranges a bit. The 737 ate in to the 752's niche, and the 321LR ate the scraps and licked the plate clean. Now, the 4000-5300 Mile range seems like it will have a lot of opening that the incoming 767 retirements will leave to 787 (maybe too large) or 330 (likewise).

Such a craft could reach from far deeper in the USA (as far as PDX) to deeper in Europe, as well as do certain Transpacific tasks from SEA, YVR, ANC, PDX, etc... Most of the Gulf and East coast to most of South America.

Of course, whether or not such a craft is possible is another question. But I'd say that's where it would fit in well, if possible.
 
StickShaker
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 65):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 61):And for all of those who say "the tooling is gone" it will be much cheaper and faster to rebuild the tooling than design an all-new plane.Quoting TC957 (Reply 64):Tooling destroyed ? As has been pointed out, any tooling can be re-constructed
Yes the tooling can be reconstructed but much more diffiicult is to establish the supply chain, where some suppliers don't even exist anymore.

  

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 61):
that re-engining it would not make it competitive and the business case for it just is not there

That's how I see it too - there is no business case for Boeing nor the engine EOM's unless the aircraft is part of a larger NSA family to justify development costs and spread the risk.
The lack of a supply chain and/or tooling is another nail in the coffin for any 757Neo.


Cheers,
StickShaker
 
SPREE34
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 24):
This article seems 0.1% conjecture, and 99.8% wishful thinking. Doesn't leave much room for fact.  

  

Quoting scbriml (Reply 46):
Ah, this week's 757 wet dream.


   Best reply in the whole thread.

The downsized 787 suggestions are entertaining, especially since downsizing has worked so well with the 737-600 and A318. They sold like h,.......oh,...wait,...ah......
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 23):
However, if you consider they might be working on a 737 replacement from clean sheet, it would perhaps make sense to leave design room in it to upscale beyond the 737-900 and into the 757 category.

While I ache that the 757 is leaving our skies in heartbreaking numbers, this idea makes the most sense to me.

[Edited 2015-02-11 07:02:17]
Great Lakes, great life.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:08 pm

I have my doubts about reviving the 757. Has that happened before? Has an aircraft type been put to rest, tooling and jigs removed and stored/destroyed/whatever, and then been resurrected 10+ years after the last production aircraft rolled out of the assembly line? I've never heard of such a thing.

And to make the 757-8/NG/MAX competitive with the A321LR, it's got to beat it in some if not most areas. I fail to see that happen. It's an old design. Slapping new engines on it is the cheapest option, that might gain 15% better fuel economy alone. But if you're gonna design and put new wings on it, it gets seriously expensive. And if you're going to invest that much money into it, why not do that to the already in production 737-9 MAX instead?

If they seriously go ahead and create a new 757 based on the old ones.. I would be very excited, but I think it would be a mistake. Boeing needs to focus on an NSA to replace both 737 and 757.

And regarding the tooling.. I've read in these forums many times that they're destroyed. But I've also read in other sites from Boeing sources (I don't remember where), that it's a myth. That they were never destroyed. Can anyone shed some light on this?
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 74):
The downsized 787 suggestions are entertaining, especially since downsizing has worked so well with the 737-600 and A318. They sold like h,.......oh,...wait,...ah......

Not to mention the 707-138 and the 747SP. The shrinks can be implemented as pre-emptive strikes to keep airlines from going to competitors (and so can a stretch, such as the Boeing 767-400), but they are never money-makers.

With the 757, I could see an outside chance for a new, efficient engine to be hung on existing airframes, but the bone structure of the 757 is a 1980 design and includes a weight penalty (as someone mentioned).
 
JHwk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:16 pm

No 787 derrivative is viable-- the 788 weighs about twice as much as a 753. Is there any way to economically reduce the weight of a 788 to the point where it would be competitive and capable of using much smaller engines... that are bleedless?

No composite option is viable unless it is out of the autoclave.

The 753 weighs nearly 50% more than a 739 or 321; not going to be competitive.

NSA/MOM will take too long.

The only thing I can see as potentially viable is a strengthened wing with a folding wingtip extension for the 739MAX. Would that be enough to get a competitive edge back?

[Edited 2015-02-11 07:19:17]
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:21 pm

Let us not forget, that the Tupolev Tu-204 is also in the market space.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
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par13del
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 11):
(3) Investment in a new small long-range jet... with the required technologies. It is a big investment. I doubt the shareholders will go for it. There's bigger bang in in the eventual NSA.

Hhhhmmmm, makes you wonder why they were forced to go with the MAX by Airbus and their clients versus holding out for the NSA, which in my opinion they should have done, but I'm not an investor so.........

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 61):
The only (relatively) quick option is re-engining the 757. And for all of those who say "the tooling is gone" it will be much cheaper and faster to rebuild the tooling than design an all-new plane.
Quoting autothrust (Reply 65):
Yes the tooling can be reconstructed but much more diffiicult is to establish the supply chain, where some suppliers don't even exist anymore.

Hence the reason why the slimmed down 767-200 is the best option.
1. Tooling and production facilities still in place and being used for freighter and tanker
2. Suppliers still in place supporting the freighter and tanker
3. Range and payload of the a/c will be at the top of the curve of the narrow body line.

If Boeing is still looking at updates to the 777 family prior to the introduction of the 777X then obviously they could also look at the 767-200 as being a interim product until the NSA arrives. Read an article last night, have to revisit to post the link, but updates are mainly to reduce current fuel burn.

If A.Net experts are wowed by the greater width of the A32X versus the 737, imagine their preference for a 767 size width?
 
B757Forever
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting Noise (Reply 15):

Quoting Miami (Reply 3):
The 757, especially the 'pencil' version, is such a beautiful aircraft. If this comes to reality. I see a lot of potential buyers!

It definitely is perhaps the most beautiful aircraft Boeing has ever built.

I can't help but agree!  
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 50):
Because? You think it will come as a surprise and Airbus won't be ready?

Well, logically speaking, any NSA Boeing makes will most likely be more efficient than anything else in it's class.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 68):
Nope because they have engineers you know, and plans, and also over 3000 planes to deliver, and there is no engine that will give anyone a 10% advantage.

Not yet, there isn't 
Quoting iahmark (Reply 52):
I hope so and I agree with you the MAX wasn’t really a good idea, Boeing should have bitten the bullet and stuck to its guns and said to the prospective airlines ( southwest being one of main culprits) no go on the MAX; the NSA is the future and wait for a 2020 EIS .

On the contrary, the MAX was actually a pretty good idea, seeing as it bough Boeing some time to combat the A320neo. Obviously, the MAX 9 is struggling and could do better, but I think Boeing should start on a NSA soon.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 51):
To start the NSA at this point makes no sense. There are no new big improvements in engines(GTF/LEAP) that would make it a big leap forward with double digit SFC improvements.

No, I agree. The problem Boeing has is that the technology for, say, a 10%+ improvement over the 737 MAX isn't yet available. I reckon by this time 10 years from now, they'll be looking into it.
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rheinwaldner
Posts: 1875
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:59 pm

This is either all just blah blah or Boeing extremely quickly lost their happiness:

Quote:
"We are very happy with where the MAX 9 sits and feel the competition is simply doing things to catch up with it,"

Randy Tinseth, vice president of marketing at Boeing Commercial Airplanes.

Being happy about the MAX 9 and studying to run demolished FALs again are not really congruent positions. What happened in between?
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
4holer
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:25 pm

Will be an interesting window as to whether the Boeing team in Chicago perceive their stockholders as interested in long term performance or only as far as the upcoming quarter.

This thread feels the same to the 757 revival threads at it felt when NW finally did plan to retire the DC-9...
Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2836
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 4):
The question is where would Boeing put this? The 787 surge line post 777X LRIP? Renton isn't going to happen since they're using all 4 lines for the 737.

They'd have plenty of space at Everett after the 747 line closes
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting iahmark (Reply 52):
In the meantime they could offload 737NG’s almost at cost, this would have put a damper on a lot fleet planners on ordering the A32XNEO because the NSA would have been better than the MAX and better than the NEO; how much better than the NEO? probably up for debate but better enough for Boeing to be competitive in this segment for the next 20-30 years (that’s how long the A32x is been in the market)….

Boeing got forced to build a plane it really didn't want to build

Quoting xdlx (Reply 62):
Boeing mistake was to make the 737-900. In my most humble opinion, the 738-max should have marked the end of the line for this now revised 6 times version of the workhorse.

The NG should have ended the 737 line up

Attempting to re engine the the 757 would be a waste. The NSA will be needed so why not just start now. I don't think going with the same cabin width as the current 757 is good idea. it should around the width of the A320 family or better Boeing will also have a direct competitor in certain markets with the MC-21.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:27 pm

I think the only option for Boeing that makes economical sense and can return money before 2020 is the 767-200 NEO/767-300 Neo, called 767-8 as a long range and 767-9 as a regional mid range airliner. I see this to happen, not a revival of the 757.
 
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Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 87):
I think the only option for Boeing that makes economical sense and can return money before 2020 is the 767-200 NEO/767-300 Neo, called 767-8 as a long range and 767-9 as a regional mid range airliner. I see this to happen, not a revival of the 757.

How about we call it the 787-8 and 787-9?

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 86):
Attempting to re engine the 757 would be a waste.

Agreed.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:01 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 4):

The question is where would Boeing put this? The 787 surge line post 777X LRIP? Renton isn't going to happen since they're using all 4 lines for the 737.

Sometime around 2000-2001 I remember reading an article about how Boeing changed the 737 production to moving lines. The article mentioned Boeing was studying mixing 737 and 757 production on a common production line.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:04 pm

IMHO, too little, too late. Airbus has secured this market with the A321NEO. There is not enough marketplace for two A321NEO/757 type aircraft. Boeing has missed the boat.
 
Oykie
Posts: 2039
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 80):
Hence the reason why the slimmed down 767-200 is the best option.
1. Tooling and production facilities still in place and being used for freighter and tanker
2. Suppliers still in place supporting the freighter and tanker
3. Range and payload of the a/c will be at the top of the curve of the narrow body line.

I agree that the 767 is probably the lowest risk at the moment. Launching the NSA prematurely is probably something Boeing is worried about. But what could Boeing to to make the 767 competitive enough?

Quoting IAD787 (Reply 19):
Haven't posted in a while, but a good time to jump back in.

Still consider you as one uf us and enjoy reading your articles.   

I still dream of an all new narrowbody that will be for the 787 what the 757 was for the 767. This would be an all composite aircraft that relies heavily on 787 systems and technology.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
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Ty134A
Posts: 553
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:08 pm

they should have kept one fuselage diameter with the 757, being thicker in the rear makes this plane so ugly. such a sleek cockpit, i love it how high it is, but then this fat ass in the rear, spoils everything.

and i feel that a new 757, especially of the 300 size needs to come up with something to make boarding and loading more efficient....

other than that i always wondered why there are not more 753 designs, they could do a lot of missions the 788 does, but with new technology a lot more efficient, but ok... we will see how the A321LR will perform!
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:08 pm

If Boeing is seriously considering restarting 757 production with a modernized version, perhaps they should also do whan they did with the 777X and make the walls thinner to give more interior space. Considering these planes would be used on longer range missions than the 737-9, the extra cabin width would be a much appreciated.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5200
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:10 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Boeing hint about a clean-sheet narrowbody, some time between 2005 and 2007? I seem to recall that when Boeing was discussing the possibilty with customers, Southwest said that if the proposed aircraft had similar efficiency improvements to what the 787 offered over the 767, it would order 100 and take options for another 100.

A friend of mine who flies for AA said that the rumor (and we know that pilot rumors are unreliable) was that AA had been finally considering ordering more 738s, but the possibility of Boeing have a clean-sheet narrowbody was causing management to hold the order. AA didn't want to order more 738s, only to have Boeing announce a new narrowbody, leaving AA committed to 737NGs for a number of years.

It was the problems with the 787 and the 747-8 that led to the end of discussions of a new narrowbody.

That and the escalating price of jet fuel led AA to put in the 738 order in 2008, with deliveries starting in 2009.

Further, wasn't there a 787-3 model proposed for routes within North America, Asia, and Europe that required aircraft larger than the 739 and A321? An Asian carrier ordered the -3, but Boeing dropped it due to lack of orders.
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:34 pm

RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 88):
How about we call it the 787-8 and 787-9

The 787-8 is not only far bigger than the 767-200, but also has any operating empty weight that is 35 tons heigher ( 82000 kg on the 762, 117000 kg on the 787) . The 787 is far too much airplane for the market sections discussed here.
 
INFINITI329
Posts: 2600
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:53 am

RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:19 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 94):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Boeing hint about a clean-sheet narrowbody, some time between 2005 and 2007?

And then the NEO came and backed Boeing into a corner it didn't want to be in
 
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jetblastdubai
Posts: 2037
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting ckfred (Reply 94):
Further, wasn't there a 787-3 model proposed for routes within North America, Asia, and Europe that required aircraft larger than the 739 and A321?

According to wiki, the proposed (and no longer offered) 783 had a MTOW of 364K lbs. while a 763ER checks in at 412K lbs. Surprisingly less than the 763 however the 783 had a range of only 3,050 NM compared to 5,500+ for the 763.

The 752, with a 3,900 NM range is substantially more than than the 783. At 3,050 miles, the 783 would just about be maxed out doing BOS-SFO. Definitely not a North Atlantic plane although an amazing US transcon one.
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1781
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:36 pm

The NSA is the eventual solution, but Boeing will have to carefully weigh the moment and how it will be launched. It won't be easy. The availability of suitable engines has been mentioned here as one of the issues.

But in addition, the enormous success of the 737 and A320 series is the primary problem in any next generation design. First off, if there is (say) a switch to a 787 style cockpit, you lose some of the commonality that you would otherwise have had.

But more importantly, the market and industrialisation situations are almost unimaginably difficult to handle well. How do you launch a new model that will (probably) eventually sell 50 copies per month? It will not sell that many in the beginning, so for what capacity do you build the supply chain for? And what if there are 787-style hiccups in starting some of the suppliers into the process? The potential for delays or cost overruns in terms of compensation must give Boeing board nightmares.

And even more importantly, you cannot launch a new aircraft and not have it affect the marketplace. You can try to launch it from the larger 200-250 passenger end, and slowly enter this smaller part of the market, letting it grow. And releasing other models later.

However, the moment this new aircraft is released, all the customers know that it will eventually cover a range of different size aircraft. Suddenly the customers know that further 737 purchases are going to be an aircraft that will be greatly surpassed by newer and more efficient designs, with better resale value. This may trigger slowdown in the 737 sales, and a *second* enormous loss possibility for the board's nightmares.

Managed well, you can do this, but you better launch it in a moment where supply is smaller than market, and buyers are forced to buy the 737 to the last moment no matter if the buyers know that A320s and NSAs will be better planes.

Same considerations apply to Airbus' NSA of course as well, but they will probably have a few more years.

The two processes are also interlocked, because once you release the larger NSA variant, you are locked into a particular technology. The second manufacturer will be able to use a few additional years worth of better technology.

This will be very interesting to watch.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5511
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 79):

Let us not forget, that the Tupolev Tu-204 is also in the market space.

No It's really not. US and western European carriers are not buying this frame.

[Edited 2015-02-11 10:43:20]

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