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JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:14 am

Quoting art (Reply 145):
With those numbers it would be madness to pursue either a modified 767 or a resuscitated, modified 757 in an attempt to counter the A321NEO LR.

It really wouldn't be a counter to the 321neoLR, (or competition for the A330neo/788)...it would do things the 321 can't. It would be a 757, 767, A300, A310 replacement. Trans Atlantic west coast to pretty much anywhere in Europe. West coast to Asia...whatever the 767 is doing now.

Sure, the 788 and A330 are doing some of that but at 80,000ish lbs heavier...a cleaned up 762 with Scimitars and GEnx -2B's would beat them on trip costs.

It would fit almost exactly between the A321neoLR and the A330neo/788 duo, in price, trip cost, range and weights.

The A321 to A330/788 gap is huge, around 150,000lbs OEW difference alone. Considering the relatively small weight differences between the aircraft above and below the gap, it behooves me to believe that there isn't room for 1000 or so gap fillers.
What the...?
 
karadion
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 148):
Someone mentioned that they actually sold the assembly area or something like that.

Nope. All of the assembly lines were in those two main buildings.
Renton

If you look at the far back, there is one assembly line which is being used for the P-8A Poseidon program due to ITAR. The front two buildings is where there are currently two assembly lines which they are readjusting to handle a FOURTH assembly line which the MAX will be assembled on. The current third assembly line (P-8A) is where the 757 Wing Assembly used to take place.
 
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kanban
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:50 am

Quoting Karadion (Reply 151):
If you look at the far back, there is one assembly line which is being used for the P-8A Poseidon program due to ITAR. The front two buildings is where there are currently two assembly lines which they are readjusting to handle a FOURTH assembly line which the MAX will be assembled on. The current third assembly line (P-8A) is where the 757 Wing Assembly used to take place.

I believe there are 3 lines in the two large buildings (4-81/4-82) with a 4th being added. The 4-20 complex (saw toothed roof) is/was split in half between the windowed section and the un windowed section which is divided into three bays running toward the lake. These originally contained the 707/727 FAL in the top and center bays and the wing line in the third. The P-8 I believe is in the back third. and the other bays are wing line.

Quoting S75752 (Reply 148):
Someone mentioned that they actually sold the assembly area or something like that.

see my post #147.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:01 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 146):
And I wonder...when will it end....

Around 2030?   
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:04 am

The main reason for all this, as I have heard, is that the A321LR is getting way more attention than Boeing thought. And it seems it is not only hurting the 737 it also digs at the wide bodies. Sources say that many European holiday carriers are very interested in it. A plane that could be used to the Caribbean in one season and to Canary Islands in the other with just needing a few rows of seats to be changed is highly interesting. TC / Condor are said to be very close to a deal.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:40 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:41 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 154):
TC / Condor are said to be very close to a deal.

To an aircraft that Boeing have said that they won't be building..... That is simply amazing......
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:01 am

I am talking about A321LR.
 
dare100em
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:14 am

Quoting VS11 (Reply 135):
Not sure if this is news or not but per the piece below, the replacement of the B757 will be around 2030 when the totally clean design aircraft family will come out. Looks like it will be in time to replace the planes currently bought to replace the B757. Per the same piece, Boeing's market research indicates that: ""They want an airplane that's bigger than today's 757 and flies farther, probably 20 percent farther," he said."http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1423699147.html

That's exactly what many don't get here. They don't have to make a 1:1 replacement for the 757 and they probaly try to avoid a 1:1 plane against the A321x. That may later be part of the NSA, yes.

All you here from Boing since some time tends in the direction of a plane larger (20%) than the Boing 757. This means odds are very high they going for something in the 767 direction, of course lighter in between todays 757 and 767 weight. The "enlargment" of the 787 throughout it's development and the fact the 787-8 will be gone as significant player about 2020, leafing the 787-9 as baseline, opens a very huge cap in Boeings Portfolio. This cap has to be adressed and has the positive side-effect of A) Totally killing the A330, forcing Airbus to move below the A350, B) You don't eat into the very sucesfull 737-8max and help Boeing "delay" hard NSA decisions.

It will probably be a small 7 (or even 8) abreast twin-aisle using carbon for learning how to "downscale" size but upscale output regarding the NSA. Yes, this will be a 15b$ Project again, that's why they always say "it Needs some time" (2-3 years, 787 cash positive, 777x design finished), but i guess that's exaxtly what will happen.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:51 am

7 abreast is inefficient and always will be- too much aisle space for too few extra seats compared to a single aisle design. So we are talking 8 abreast which means a A330 style fuselage diameter. So if you do want to go with an A310 like design (with all the drag penalties of such a short and fat design) you end up with something in the A332 size. Consideirng that the engines will probably be heavier than on the 767 and you are facing a larger fuselage it will be very expensive to get the weight down. Everything I can image is way too close to the 787-8.
 
FlyingAY
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:18 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 149):
I imagine that when the "797" family arrives, the 787-8 would be selling poorly, and the 797-9 could easily replace the smallest Dreamliner.

I would expect that the new narrowbody would have significantly less range than 787-8. As most of the narrowbody flying is done flying short to medium haul it probably would not make sense to fly around so much structure that the NSA could reach 787 range levels, or what do you think?
 
dare100em
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 159):
7 abreast is inefficient and always will be- too much aisle space for too few extra seats compared to a single aisle design. So we are talking 8 abreast which means a A330 style fuselage diameter. So if you do want to go with an A310 like design (with all the drag penalties of such a short and fat design) you end up with something in the A332 size. Consideirng that the engines will probably be heavier than on the 767 and you are facing a larger fuselage it will be very expensive to get the weight down. Everything I can image is way too close to the 787-8.

That's of course right in many ways. that's why i think they have to go for a very tight 8 abraest for short-haule and 7-abreat for Long-haul (see my post 55), much like the 767, maybe even wider fuselage than high..

The 787 is a 9-abreast and furthermore developed more-and-more into a real Long-haul 10 h Jet with a large winge. All this things make it heavy - and of course very capable.

Boeing itself have patents regarding a small-twin-aisle and is constantly talking about that Option, even as a 6 and/or 7 abraest (see e.g. interview Leeham News). Beside the downsides of a slightly large Diameter of a twin-aisle there are also upsides, especially with the use of CRP. The stiffness per wall-thickness is considerably higher because the distance to the "neutral-faser" is wider.

As i said, this won't be a A321 or 757 replacement but well above that. The 787-8 will be gone in 5-6 years for new orders anyway, the 787 will more and more evolve into a 300+ 10h plus seater.
 
art
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:39 am

The answer to 757 revival is: no.

Quote:
Boeing vice-president Randy Tinseth says the company has studied reviving and re-engining the 757 “a couple” of times, but concluded that the economics do not make sense.

“We’re not studying 757 re-engined replacements right now. It just doesn’t work,” says Tinseth, addressing the Pacific Northwest Aerospace Alliance (PNAA) conference in Seattle.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...s-case-for-757-re-engining-408959/
 
dare100em
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:18 pm

Leeham now has a very good open summary why a "757max" won't happen:

http://leehamnews.com/2015/02/12/boe...operating-economics-does-not-work/
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting dare100em (Reply 161):
s i said, this won't be a A321 or 757 replacement but well above that.

Agreed. If people are looking for an A/C with more capabilities than the A321/757 but don't need or want the higher fixed costs associated with a wide-body (weight, drag, seat versus aisle ratio) a totally new design could be very popular. Airport and airspace capacity is the elephant in the room that can't be overlooked indefinitely so the industry is going to have to migrate to larger aircraft eventually. Keeping the plane below the 'heavy' weight category should be considered.

A single-aisle, no longer than the current 753 would be appropriate otherwise you get into wide-body capacity territory. If the fuselage could be a bit wider than the current 757 cross-section it would be only slightly less efficient but offer a substantial customer appeal for the longer segments that these aircraft would be used on.

Terminal space becomes an issue with larger aircraft so why not incorporate some type of 777X folding wingtip technology into a plane that will no doubt operate out of existing domestic gates.

To overcome some of the loading/dis-embarking issues with the long, single aisle layout, airports could make small(ish) investments by adding jetbridges that would allow for the simultaneous use of doors 1L and 2L.
 
karadion
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 152):
I believe there are 3 lines in the two large buildings (4-81/4-82) with a 4th being added.

Incorrect, there are only three 737 production lines which are: 4-20 P-8A Posideon Line #3, 4-81 Line #1, 4-82 Line #2. They are adding the fourth 737 line for the MAX in the 4-82 building which they are reincorporating some of the spaces in 4-82 building by shifting work over to the 4-81 and 4-20 building. There is no third line in either 4-81 or 4-82 yet.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting art (Reply 162):
The answer to 757 revival is: no.

Which, of course, does not stop the "weekly 757 wet dream thread" from being reincarnated ad infinitum.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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par13del
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting VS11 (Reply 135):
""They want an airplane that's bigger than today's 757 and flies farther, probably 20 percent farther," he said."

So essentially they will end up building a 767-200 size airframe, does make you wonder if it was an idea ahead of its time.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 155):
Here’s why Boeing won’t do a "757 MAX":

....and some of the reasons especially where the line would be placed is why the 767-200 is suggested, since they may be able to build that on the existing 767 line.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 150):
Quoting art (Reply 145):
With those numbers it would be madness to pursue either a modified 767 or a resuscitated, modified 757 in an attempt to counter the A321NEO LR.

It really wouldn't be a counter to the 321neoLR, (or competition for the A330neo/788)...it would do things the 321 can't. It would be a 757, 767, A300, A310 replacement. Trans Atlantic west coast to pretty much anywhere in Europe. West coast to Asia...whatever the 767 is doing now.
Quoting dare100em (Reply 158):
The "enlargment" of the 787 throughout it's development and the fact the 787-8 will be gone as significant player about 2020, leafing the 787-9 as baseline, opens a very huge cap in Boeings Portfolio.
Quoting seahawk (Reply 159):
7 abreast is inefficient and always will be- too much aisle space for too few extra seats compared to a single aisle design. So we are talking 8 abreast which means a A330 style fuselage diameter.

Considering that the 767 is smaller than the A330 and the A350 is even larger, the gap that exist between the A321 largest version and the A330NEO / A350 is just as great for Airbus, so unless the A321 is reworked into a larger frame to fill the gap, both OEM's next narrow body offering will have to fill the gap, whether a narrow body or small wide body will depend on the technology at the time.

Issue now is that if Boeing goes with a 767-200 in the interim, it will provide benchmarks further into the future, no one expect a refurb 767-200 to last beyond the next clean sheet narrow body a/c project.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:10 pm

The 757 is my favorite airliner and I'd love to see new ones being cranked out...

That being said, let it go... the 757 is not coming back  

These threads are quickly becoming the new NW DC-9 retirement or DL/AS merger threads...
 
jfk777
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:34 pm

Why are people so in "Love" the 757, its a one aisle replacement for domestic widebodies like the Dc-10 or L-1011. Its graceful to see it fly and very capable from short runways like LGA but a mess for the 200 people on it. WHY would any one want to use it for flights to Europe, it was never intended for that. It was a twin engine replacement for the venerable 727-200. Continental using it on 4 of their 5 flights from Newark to LHR is the epitamy of the worst misuse of a 757 in the world. IF Continental has 5 slots for LHR flights from EWR they need 767 on them or less flights with 777 and 767. There should be a law about using narrow body planes over the Atlantic with the exception of all J class 737 or A320 flights like the BA LCY to JFK flights. The 757 is great for DElta shuttling people from ATL up and down the east coast.
 
Oykie
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 104):
I think MAXing the 767 the second lowest risk...the lowest risk, (as someone already mentioned), is to do the 764/Concorde trick to the gear, (extends as it lowers/retracts when it stows), and put the big LEAP engines under the wing of the 739.

The advantages of the 767 upgrade, (especially over the NSA), are that the line is still running, by virtue of its 40 ton weight advantage over the 788/330's it will have better trip costs, and will have better CASM, range and payload capacity than the 321NEO, past a certain range. It also directly replaces the thousands of 767,757, A310, A300 aircraft currently flying but running out of usable life.

If Boeing can sell 500 767MAX I am sure that is the safest bet now.

Quoting par13del (Reply 167):
Considering that the 767 is smaller than the A330 and the A350 is even larger, the gap that exist between the A321 largest version and the A330NEO / A350 is just as great for Airbus, so unless the A321 is reworked into a larger frame to fill the gap, both OEM's next narrow body offering will have to fill the gap, whether a narrow body or small wide body will depend on the technology at the time.

I remember there was an article that stated that the 767-300ER with winglets was actually competitive on routes up to 3000Nm compared to the 787. The A321LR will get a penalty close to 4000Nm. The capability in the 767 frame between 3500-4500Nm range may give it an edge over the A321LR. Remember that it will take a payload hit.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 159):
7 abreast is inefficient and always will be- too much aisle space for too few extra seats compared to a single aisle design. So we are talking 8 abreast which means a A330 style fuselage diameter.

Nonetheless, airlines are cramming 9 seats across space intended for 8. With shrinking seat width and flexible cabin configuration trends, that becomes less of a drawback...particularly for medium-haul flying.


Quoting Revelation (Reply 166):
Which, of course, does not stop the "weekly 757 wet dream thread" from being reincarnated ad infinitum.

Though this one seems to be drying up now...   .


Quoting par13del (Reply 167):
so unless the A321 is reworked into a larger frame to fill the gap, both OEM's next narrow body offering will have to fill the gap, whether a narrow body or small wide body will depend on the technology at the time.

Issue now is that if Boeing goes with a 767-200 in the interim, it will provide benchmarks further into the future, no one expect a refurb 767-200 to last beyond the next clean sheet narrow body a/c project.

It could provide Boeing a means of substantially de-risking their NSA and MOM concepts, while not leaving the market entirely to the A321LR and A330NEO, and hopefully, earning a tidy sum along the way.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 168):
These threads are quickly becoming the new NW DC-9 retirement or DL/AS merger threads...

   Good time to start the 767liteMAX wet dreams!!!    .....

Quoting oykie (Reply 170):

If Boeing can sell 500 767MAX I am sure that is the safest bet now.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:01 pm

This an enthusiasts site for all thing aviation. As such, (in my opinion), there's room for almost every point of view, barring overt insults and rudeness.

I think that as long as the title is a clear representative of content, then anybody should be able to start as many 757, A380, 767, A330neo, Twin Otter or whatever, threads as this site can handle. Then, it's entirely up to the reader to partake in a thread or not. If one does, then decorum would suggest that, while they certainly wouldn't be banned from any thread, they need not enter specifically to write a, "Oh no....not this again", post.

We already have endless single topic, 'build, testing, delivery', threads without the sky falling...so why be needlessly negative just to mock someone else's favorite topic?

That doesn't preclude spirited discussion from all sides...that's really what makes this site so enjoyable...all the different ideas and points of view.

I'm not a thread cop by any means and my hands aren't clean, but I am trying to reform by just ignoring threads which don't hold any particular interest for me.

For one thing, that allows me to cut way back on my meds.

Rant over....suggest deletion at your leisure.

Thank you and good night...tip your waitress...try the veal.

[Edited 2015-02-12 14:24:58]
What the...?
 
321neoLR
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:23 pm

Well said..

I couldn't agree more.
 
VS11
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 167):
Quoting VS11 (Reply 135):
""They want an airplane that's bigger than today's 757 and flies farther, probably 20 percent farther," he said."

So essentially they will end up building a 767-200 size airframe, does make you wonder if it was an idea ahead of its time.

I am not sure your conclusion is entirely correct. I think the question is if it will be a two-isle or one-isle plane. It seems to me that if it is part of the new clean design narrow-body family then it will be a single-isle plane. But how much longer can the 757 be?
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 150):
It would fit almost exactly between the A321neoLR and the A330neo/788 duo, in price, trip cost, range and weights.

Then cost would be too high...
Beating the 787 would not be sufficient. It would need to match the A321NEO...
But about double the weight but not double the seats means that the 767 has no chance...
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
georgiabill
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:44 am

I think the new UA missed an opportunity to utilize realitively new 767-200ER'S to open or serve smaller markets that did warrant larger aircraft from KEWR or KIAD. Atleast the 767-200ER'S wouldn't need enroute fuel stops from Europe to the eastcoast.
 
sv11
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:42 am

Well Pratt's gtf is available till 40k of thrust but probably the fan is too big to hang off 737. So now we have an engine that could have gone into a 757NG, unfortunately the 757 isnt in production anymore. Probably the 757 wing isnt competitive anymore. Ba should just launch nsa, 150 to 200 seats, narrowbody, delivery 2022 and retire 737 after all deliveries. Maybe a composite wing like 777x.

Regards,
sv11
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:56 am

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 175):

It would beat the 321neoLR in a few areas including payload, range and the option for 290 slimline seats, which is what the A321 would need to seat 240 passengers.

To go 4000nm, the A321LR can haul 206 passengers with no room for cargo. With similar pitch, the 767 can haul almost 300 passengers that range with room for cargo...which works out to almost 50% more. With GEnx-2B's hanging under the wings, some aero improvements and scimitars, efficiency should improve at least 15%.

Basically, these planes have different strong suits. the A321LR, makes a fine 752 replacement. The 762 is more aircraft in every way, too much for those that only need an A321.

Like I said, it fits almost exactly in the middle between the A321 and the 788. I think there's room for all three in the market place.

It's just a thought exercise anyway....the odds of Boeing MAXing the 767 are pretty long.
What the...?
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:34 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 171):
Nonetheless, airlines are cramming 9 seats across space intended for 8. With shrinking seat width and flexible cabin configuration trends, that becomes less of a drawback...particularly for medium-haul flying.

Well 9 abreast is more efficient than 8. But putting 240 pax in a 9 abreast configuration would produce are very strange plane configuration. That is 26 rows. That would be a A330 style fuselage diameter with A320 fuselage length. I do not think that would work well.
 
dare100em
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:39 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 179):
Well 9 abreast is more efficient than 8. But putting 240 pax in a 9 abreast configuration would produce are very strange plane configuration. That is 26 rows. That would be a A330 style fuselage diameter with A320 fuselage length. I do not think that would work well.

It would never-ever be 9-abreast because than it would be a 787-3 again which won't happen. Boeing itself (see e.g. Leeham interview with K. Hadi: http://leehamnews.com/2014/11/02/boe...57767-style-for-next-new-airplane/ is talking about a twin with 7 abreast).

They are talking about 20% more passengers than 757. That would be a very strange exercise for a 6-abreast single-aisle plane, the fitness-ratio would be at the absolute Limit.

That's why I think what Joe says makes perfect sense. There is a market-cap in the 767-size for either a very light 7-abraest or even a 7/8 abreast option with very similar 767 fuselage.

That plane won't be on par with an A321 on a 2500 nm Mission and it won't be a 757 replacement. But it could be very successful anyway capturing all the market above the A321 including A330-200, 767 and maybe up to the 787-8 one day.

The NSA would be different story and wouldn’t have the problem of solving a market from 160 to 240 Pax (which is the 20% more regarding 757). Especially if one start at the top of the line, “downscaling” later – which never worked before actually (most planes going “up” all the way through the design phase, see 787 or A350, the reverse is very strange).Indeed, it would leave the 737-8max untouched.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:00 am

I do not believe in 2-3-2. The smaller version would be pressured by a single isle design, the larger version by a real 8 abreast design. And if you look at the typical routes flown by those planes the competition would always have an advantage. We would be looking at plane that would not be in competition with A330/767/757 it would be facing A330NEO and probably the 787NG or A350NEO as well, while it would be facing NSA and the next Airbus single aisle from below

To make matters worth Boeing still wants to compete in the 130-150 seats market and they surely will want to keep fighting in the 220+ seats single aisle market too. If one plane can do this is questionable imho.

I am not convinced we will see a twin aisle design below the 787.
 
Oykie
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:48 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 172):
think that as long as the title is a clear representative of content, then anybody should be able to start as many 757, A380, 767, A330neo, Twin Otter or whatever, threads as this site can handle.

   I agree. It is what makes this site unique!

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 178):
Like I said, it fits almost exactly in the middle between the A321 and the 788. I think there's room for all three in the market place.

Putting GEnx on the 767 should be tempting. McNerny himself has said that the demand for widebodies exceeds supply and for that reason alone the 767 production will be around for years. Updating the engines should be of interest. But what airlines would launch it?  
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
 
kl671
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:08 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 76):
Has an aircraft type been put to rest, tooling and jigs removed and stored/destroyed/whatever, and then been resurrected 10+ years after the last production aircraft rolled out of the assembly line?
Quoting FrmrKSEngr (Reply 141):
DeHavilland Twin Otter comes to mind.

The Lockheed Galaxy also comes to mind. 13 years between deliveries of the last C5A and the first C5B models.
 
dare100em
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:34 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 181):
I do not believe in 2-3-2. The smaller version would be pressured by a single isle design, the larger version by a real 8 abreast design. And if you look at the typical routes flown by those planes the competition would always have an advantage. We would be looking at plane that would not be in competition with A330/767/757 it would be facing A330NEO and probably the 787NG or A350NEO as well, while it would be facing NSA and the next Airbus single aisle from below

Why would a compfortable 7-abreast and tigh 8-abreast not beat a much heavier A330neo, not speaking about a 787-8 or A350, which as the -900 is much more plane and at least 50% heavier as this frame ever will get?

There are a lot intercontinental missions where you just don't need a 787-9 or A330-900neo. Furthermore it could be used as "charter" plane and intra-Asia widebody with short Turnarounds as an 8-abreast "squezze it" configuration.

Yes, it won't beat a A321 on short or medium missions, that's clear, but it doesen't mean it doesen't make sense.

For the 180-200 market Boeing has a very competitive product at least till 2030, the 787-8max. Yes, that would leave the A321 somehow untouched, but something have to give.

I still don't believe in the idea of starting the NSA "from above". Like already said, that never works. And talking about what Boeing says customers wan't, that is 757 + 20% capacity, it will never ever work out until we don't generally assume the narrow-body size will be centered around 230 Pax soon which seems horible. Even than you would need 2 wings because otherwise this extreme Long single-aisle would be much to heavy in the 200 Pax market.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:20 am

That plane would always risk ending up like a 767 against the A330. 2-3-2 is just less efficient than a 2-4-2 with tight squeeze 3-3-3.

The next question is how much range will you give it. How light can you make it?

Surely there are many missions where you do not need the range of a A339 or 787, but they have the nice advantage that they are still decently economical on those routes and can fly a longer mission on the next leg. That plane would be too big and heavy for shorter routes and lack the range for the longer routes.

I personally think that going with 2 single aisle designs would make more sense.

One from 130-190 seats for shorter missions and one from 180-250 seats with more range. You could start with the bigger one early, as the requirements would mean you do not need to consider an open-rotor design as the longer range and the slower speed of the open-rotor designs would not fit. After that you could do the smaller plane, if possible as an open-rotor design as the king of the short haul routes.

I agree that starting the NSA from above has a high likelyhood of ending up with a 737-600 at the end.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:53 am

The problem with a small twin aisle frame is also freight. The smallest frame accommodating a standard LD3 container has been the A310 having the same contour as the A300, A330 and A340.
The LD3 is used by all wide bodies in use except the 767.
The 767 uses the LD2 container only used on her and if the freight moves to another bird it has to change containers.
A small twin aisle would either have to be build around the LD2 or there would be the next standard.
As freight is moving more and more as belly freight such considerations could be a part in the A330 pushing out the 767.

To build a small wide boy twin taking the standard LD3 containers you would end up with a A310 look alike. If it is possible to build such a bird light enough, there is a possibility, but we would not see 2+2+2 or 2+3+2, but rather 2+4+2 and 3+3+3.
A small twin aisle twin could end up as the most economical challenged frame possible to build.

I think the market of medium long range, up to 4,500-5,000 nm, 180 to 250 passenger will end up as single aisle with the contour of the A320 or a touch bigger, taking standard (A320) LD3/45 container for luggage and belly freight.
As it is, it will the most economical solution at that range.

[Edited 2015-02-13 03:03:48]
 
HPRamper
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:18 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 22):
Wonder if a freighter version would be tempting to FedEx, UPS and DHL? There could be at least a hundred freighters right ere with those three!

Doubtful, they have enough 757s already, and they will be flying for many many years. With the short distances involved a new expensive freighter just isn't going to bring back a positive ROI.

I've been hearing rumors about bringing back the 757 or some derivative thereof, the word going around is that it would more closely resemble the 757-300 than the -200.
 
SocalApproach
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:25 am

If Boeing is seriously considering the 757 revival this time around   then the only reason I can see why is because a former A-netter somehow got hired on as a new corporate executive because the only people that seem to want the 757 back or have a revival of the program topic every week are people on airliners.net because that's where it happens!
 
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par13del
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:32 am

Quoting iahmark (Reply 131):
The cheaper option would be to get more ground clearance -especially on MAX 9- in any way possible enough to hang the standard size fans of the A32XNEO on its wing which will provide better rotation angles to improve the poor take off range=> MAX9

This cheap option has been around for Boeing since the initial NG, they chose to adjust the cowling, so I'm not sure I agree it is the cheap option.

Quoting VS11 (Reply 174):
I am not sure your conclusion is entirely correct. I think the question is if it will be a two-isle or one-isle plane.
Quoting VS11 (Reply 174):
But how much longer can the 757 be?

In some quarters the 737-300 is already too long, as pax count increases there is only so long a a/c can get before it becomes more efficient to go wider in spite of the aerodynamic penalty.

Quoting rheinwaldner (Reply 175):
Beating the 787 would not be sufficient. It would need to match the A321NEO...

A 767-200 would not be competing with the 787-8, it's market would start below and at the higher end of the A321LR and above, its a gap filler.
Now do we have airlines still abusing the 767 which was "obsoleted" by the A330 yes, no different than the A346 and the 777, so why would a re-tooled a/c to fit a space have to beat existing frames, it only needs to be competitive.

At present Boeing nor Airbus has any a/c in the gap A321 - A330NOE / 737-900 - 787-8, so that is where some of us think Boeing and Airbus should aim for.
Due to the limitations of the 737 and the choices on the NG, Boeing will have to act sooner, so since the NSA is not yet ready what are their options, the 767-200 IMHO is more viable than a 757 rebirth.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:42 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 179):
Well 9 abreast is more efficient than 8. But putting 240 pax in a 9 abreast configuration would produce are very strange plane configuration. That is 26 rows. That would be a A330 style fuselage diameter with A320 fuselage length. I do not think that would work well.

The point is airlines are doing it so what's to stop them from squeezing 8 seats across a 767-size section. 290 seats at 30" pitch for maximum efficiency, somewhat less for two-class layouts depending on airlines' preferences.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 181):
We would be looking at plane that would not be in competition with A330/767/757 it would be facing A330NEO and probably the 787NG or A350NEO as well, while it would be facing NSA and the next Airbus single aisle from below

It would straddle the space between the A321LR and A338NEO...for airlines looking for more capacity and range than the first, but less than the latter. It could be Boeing's stepping stone for their eventual MOM offering, as they do not seem in a hurry to launch anything completely new, lest it hurt the 788's remaining prospects.

Considering the ready option to upsize, it may give them space for Airbus to pull the trigger first. And with most components already available off the shelf, it could give the A321LR and A330NEOs a run for their money.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 172):
We already have endless single topic, 'build, testing, delivery', threads without the sky falling...so why be needlessly negative just to mock someone else's favorite topic?

There is actual news (if not earth shattering amounts of it) on those build/test/delivery threads....

I know I was pretty disappointed to read this thread's starting article expecting perhaps something new was happening, but, nope, just another press report quoting "industry executives" that got shot down with much haste by Boeing, followed by dozens of posts restating the same old stuff (did we get to the fish yet?)

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 172):

I'm not a thread cop by any means and my hands aren't clean, but I am trying to reform by just ignoring threads which don't hold any particular interest for me.

Yes, that's a good policy. I guess the thread starter got me hooked into reading on, and led me to disappointment.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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par13del
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:38 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 185):
That plane would always risk ending up like a 767 against the A330. 2-3-2 is just less efficient than a 2-4-2 with tight squeeze 3-3-3

Times have changed and the market adjusted, when the A330 was designed one of its primary purposes was to expand the 767 market with more capacity and range. It should be noted that until recently - previous A.Net thread with figures - the 767 still held its own across the pond. No new 767's in general were being purchased as airlines opted for the increased efficiency of the A330 but a lot in service were removed when their heavy checks came due or their leases expired, until then users found economic ways to use the a/c.
The fact that we are talking about the A321-NEO/LR is proof enough of the market adjustments, recall that the 100 was good enough as a more efficient frame that it stalled 757 sales, and at the time, the efficiency was gained by the a/c not being designed for the excess's of the 757 which were, power, range and payload, all items now being designed in.

Quoting par13del (Reply 189):
In some quarters the 737-300 is already too long

Meaculpa, I meant the 757-300.  
 
HPRamper
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 191):
I know I was pretty disappointed to read this thread's starting article expecting perhaps something new was happening, but, nope, just another press report quoting "industry executives" that got shot down with much haste by Boeing, followed by dozens of posts restating the same old stuff

Well, to be fair, Civ Av has always been heavy on rumor and speculation, I for one tend to enjoy it as long as it isn't pure fantasy - in fact I find it quite obnoxious when *certain* posters constantly scream for "sources!" demanding an official document to back up a hearsay rumor.

A 757 revival thread certainly has more meat to it than "Will Airbus merge with Boeing?"
 
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william
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:16 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 189):
A 767-200 would not be competing with the 787-8, it's market would start below and at the higher end of the A321LR and above, its a gap filler.
Now do we have airlines still abusing the 767 which was "obsoleted" by the A330 yes, no different than the A346 and the 777, so why would a re-tooled a/c to fit a space have to beat existing frames, it only needs to be competitive.

At present Boeing nor Airbus has any a/c in the gap A321 - A330NOE / 737-900 - 787-8, so that is where some of us think Boeing and Airbus should aim for.
Due to the limitations of the 737 and the choices on the NG, Boeing will have to act sooner, so since the NSA is not yet ready what are their options, the 767-200 IMHO is more viable than a 757 rebirth.

Title of this thread should have included 767 instead of 757. Again, the realistic option is improving a product already in production and fits into a market that is not being served yet. Airbus updated the A330, should not be surprised that Boeing is looking at doing the same with the 767.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:14 pm

To keep this thread interesting, the project is called NSA and SA stands for single aisle, so don't confuse anyone and make wishful thinking, the 757 replacement IF THERE IS ONE will be single aisle, the mere change in using 2 aisles instead of one makes the fuselage way more inneficient, and carries a lot of penalties if the pax count doesn't go over 225 to 240 minimum. A short 767 or anything like that will need a bigger wing, more aerodrag, bigger engines and most important carry a marginally bigger PAX account than say a 321 or 753.

The 3 - 3 seating will be here for a long time, until someone can shed like 5 to 10 tons of fuselage weight and make engines 20% more efficient, and that will be well into the 40 or maybe 50's.

the 321Neo LR is alone in the market for at least a decade.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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par13del
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 195):
NSA and SA stands for single aisle

You sure, I recall some saying New Small Airliner, Boeing in one article even said they were considering whether the NSA would be a single aisle on small wide body with twin aisles.
....but I stand to be corrected  
 
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seahawk
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:36 pm

And they also have the MOM (Middle of the Market) project.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 195):
the 321Neo LR is alone in the market for at least a decade.

More or less. No doubt, it's superior to the 737-9.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
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crimsonchin
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RE: Boeing Considers 757 Revival

Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:09 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 172):

Your comparison with the testing and delivery thread makes no sense. Those threads matter because there is constant updates in those threads and things are always happening and changing with those deliveries/testing etc. The ad nauseam 757 threads are being complained about, because there is literally no change in position from one thread to the next. I can dig up 757 threads from a few months ago, and you'll see similar replies. People saying Boeing should have never ended it, people saying how the A321 is winning, people proposing how the NSA should be 5989589548 families covering every segment etc. It's always the same, yet the position re:the 757 has not changed i.e. it still remains dead and no update is coming, hence why people see it as pointless. I'm sure if tomorrow, something actually happens in regards to the 757 like Boeing restarting the line with an upgrade or evidence that they were seriously considering such, then I'm sure everyone on here would love to discuss that.

It would be like me making a thread asking why combis are not selling every two weeks. Of course people are free to chose the threads they reply to, but it's obvious why the 757 discussions inspire eyerolls. It's the same being rehashed for a year with no change.

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