Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4): They have collectively invested billions in product. UA and DL are all lie flat longhaul and AA will be soon. EK?

Like I can afford lie flat. Like the majority of airline customers, I will be looking for the best economy product.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 94): When we talk terrible treatment of workers we are not talking flight attendants and pilots..

Since you are stuck on "slave labor" thing through this entire thread; can you please provide some hard proof about slave labor in their aviation sector? I find it hard to believe that the middle eastern countries in question are a magnet to people from UK,Australia,Philippines etc.....people like Tim Clark, James Hogan etc. who go work there. I have watched all the episodes of Ultimate Airport Dubai and most of their workforce seems to be from a variety of countries. Doesn't sound like all of them have gone to work in slave labor camps in North Korea or Afghanistan. I agree that there may be cases of abuses in ME3 like it happens in every industry in every country; but continously harping on the "slave labor" "advantage" they have doesn't make sense.

[Edited 2015-02-11 17:36:31]

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter): Improve so people choose you.

Emirates Cabin crews are the largest bag of mixed nuts out there. EY is very consistent, and QR is top notch. So basically that message is for his own cabin crew  

Quoting ytz (Reply 76): Ahh yes. This red herring. So millions of workers, including hundreds of thousands of middle class professionals, were all tricked into working in slave like conditions in the Middle East. If true, we should be seriously wondered about the level of common sense in the Indian population. And if the Indians are being tricked, then pray tell what accounts for all the westerners who go work for EK and EY? Are they equally naiive?

There are reports by BBC, Vice and several others about large loans people took to pursue their dream job in ME, just to turn in to a perpetual nightmare no one can get out. I have more trust on BBC/Vice than YTZ on a.net

No one is naive. When its short term gig, people put up with bad working conditions. Just like young Eastern European FAs are putting up.

These enterprises are ultimate cases of plausible deniability

Arab Owners and Regulators
Western Senior Management (Gives legitimacy to the enterprise)
Western Middle Management (One more layer of legitimacy)
Indian Supervisors (Do dirty deeds with pleasure)
South Asian/South East Asian/Eastern European crew (Worker bees)

No scope to complain and nothing can be proven.

Interestingly Russia trying this model with RT in news media world, may be with the hope some day people start believe RT, just like they are now trusting ME3.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 101):

All you have to do is google it, foreign construction workers who work on these massive projects are abused and not paid on time.

That is slavery. It indirectly benefits EK.

This is rather high-handed of the EK Chairman. Afterall the US legacy carriers have been around for much longer, serve a very different market primarily and face at least somewhat different constraints.

However, the US legacies are now making record profits after the mega-mergers. With their vast network strength, they should use it to invest heavily in new products and training for their crew.. maybe even increasing staff costs to a level that would improve their soft product now that they can afford to. The time is opportune for the US carriers to muscle up to carriers that are regarded to have better products.

So I do agree with him to some extent but I'd qualify that the US carriers come from a different market and operating environments when comparing their products.

On another note, that the EK Chairman said something like this might be more of a cultural thing. QR's CEO too makes "bold" statements like their CEO saying Qatar is better than Singapore Airlines.. Whereas SQ which has been around since 1947 and whose business model was emulated by EK and QR never proclaimed it was the best at anything.. SQ's leaders always talk about the small size of their homebase and how they do their best to innovate to compete against airlines much bigger than them. Never once have I heard SQ proclaim the Singapore Girl was the best; instead they market it as "service even other airlines talk about".. again it's cultural I guess- Southeast Asian cultures tend to be more modest

I always wondered when the general public would wake up from this EK "dream". Any of my family members or friends always go on that EK is the best and they offer the best service, but from reading various reports on here it seems substandard at best. I haven't flown any of the ME3, and I am considering my first Qatar flight this year, however there are significant differences between the hard products of the US airlines and the ME3.

DL out of the three seems to be putting effort into aligning their international economy along with their European partners AF-KL. I was pleasantly surprised how much service has improved, and was served more on a flight from LHR - ATL last year than a ATL-NRT. That just shows the improvement in the service level overall, and face it economy has very few distinguishing factors, but offering slightly more room, an amenity kit, better food, and good IFE is what differentiates carriers. I do wish DL would employ a design company to pick the colours for their cabins though, that blue leather is just hideous in my opinion.

I haven't flown United yet, but to be honest the product just looks underwhelming, its all very grey and really substandard. There is nothing that makes me want to fly United, and that is a big problem. I wouldn't fly AA/US either if I had a choice, but until this time I have not had a need to fly UA even with a companion pass.

US had probably the most sloppiest dressed crew I have ever seen on a flight. Their first class cabin is tight, and even if I flew them one time I will never fly them again and will actively avoid any AA flights operated by them. I have never been so miserable in a first class cabin till I flew US.

AA for the past few years just showed they didn't care for the customer at all, I have experienced it with their customer service, on the ground, and in the air. Sure their new cabins are great, but the rest of the fleet is just dilapidated. There is also no reason for me to go out of my way to choose AA, unless I have no choice.

AF-KL, LH, BA have also been active in the fight against EK, but they have a lot to improve as well, all three of them have very substandard business cabins (not including the new ones being fitted at this moment). BA's coffin class is lie flat but an extremely tight fit like EK. AF-KL and LH have only now started to offer a fully lie flat seat. I am not sure why LH hasn't implemented it earlier, but AF had the issue of previous management's vision of being a "standard carrier" and not preparing to fight against the ME3 and Asian airlines. All three airlines in my opinion missed an opportunity to display new cabins on their A380 aircraft and generate a much needed hype or buzz. All three European airlines do well in the soft product, but their hard product needs lots of improvement, and even though AF's planes were always dirty on the outside at least they weren't filthy on the inside like many BA aircraft.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 87): The short and the Long of it? The Me3 carriers aren't bringing any more customers to the table in their OWN home markets. So they think they can go to other markets and poach customers from there.

Customers are not chattel that can be "poached". They are rational Americans/Europeans/Indians. They don't belong to the ME3 or the US3 or whoever. They just choose the product that is best for them. The problem for many here is that these customers are choosing the ME3 over the US carriers.

What do the ME3 bring to the table in other markets? A better product than what the home market can produce by the looks of it.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 87): They bought a bunch of airplanes and they want to bully their way into other markets.

What difference does it make? They can't force people to fly them. UA, AA and DL don't want them in the US precisely because customers choose to fly them.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 104): All you have to do is google it, foreign construction workers who work on these massive projects are abused and not paid on time.

While these concerns are legitimate, one has to draw a distinction between the airline and the country. If we use this logic, 9W and AI (and many, many others) are benefitting 'indirectly' from arguably worse conditions. What of it? Don't fly those airlines? Ban them? Good luck with that.

Quoting infinit (Reply 105): This is rather high-handed of the EK Chairman. Afterall the US legacy carriers have been around for much longer, serve a very different market primarily and face at least somewhat different constraints.

Its a response to what the US carriers were doing, and a legitimate one at that. If the US carriers improve their product, they won't have to worry about their "valued" customers choosing other airlines, including the ME3, who, by most accounts here, are throroughly average. If the US carriers can't even beat thoroughly average carriers, the problem probably doesn't reside in the ME.

Those workers built the airport and work on expansion projects so they do indirectly benefit EK.

And oh, EK is owned by Dubai who directly exploit these workers.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16): But the domestic US market generates the bulk of their revenue (and profits) and that market is not subject to competition from the ME3, the EU or Asia.

A difficult concept for folks to grasp, especially when some execs talk about higher margins on international routes, bulk is missed.
It would be nice to show the breakdown and clear the air once and for all.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 22): For example, Emirates & Etihad frequently offer flights between the USA and India for less than $1000 round trip. I don't think the US airlines will ever be able to offer 7500 mile roundtrip flights for that low of a price and earn money. Fuel cost alone for that distance for a single economy seat is going to be around $600 or $700 per person. I don't know any airline that can earn money with those fares.

One of the ways carriers serving connection pax make money is to lower cost on one leg and have higher prices on another, usually where competition is less.
If you are not code sharing with anyone, you can also do the price spreads by region, similar to what the UK does with the Caribbean and their APD tax, the rate to the Caribbean is higher than to all points in the USA East or West coast.

It also provides another measure where governments can assist their carriers in the competitive environment, rather than bashing the ME3 for having lower labour standards and no unions, how about encouraging governments to reduce some of the taxes that the airlines have to pay, compete where versus attempting to replicate your environment onto another country.

Carrying this on, I don't see it as an issue, unless the ME3 starts flying core markets, like seeking more Europe to US routes, or Asia to N.A. routes. Or trying to establish domestic carriers in the US.

I've often wondered what passengers (coach class) would tolerate for a low fare. For all involved, Dubai, has made its airport a remarkable transit hub. What I like about it, besides the Burger King, is that you can avoid the majority of it by walking along the sides instead of down the middle, or you can literally shop for anything imaginable, and enter to win a Bentley. I'm sure the new airports of Doha and Abu Dhabi will be good too, but I can only picture that there would be so much demand. EK has mastered this, kudos to them. Yes, they win on price too.

I just flew HKG-DXB-LHR, LHR-DXB-HKG, all A380s except the last leg, which was a 77W in business class. The seats on the A380 are top notch. You can tell the older ones, which ironically seem to be on the DXB/LHR/DXB legs, whilst the HKG flight had a newer interior, which was fantastic. The 77W could only be a letdown. It's a narrow seat with no beverage in place at the seat, but it is lie-flat, and I had the window, so slightly claustrophobic too (row 8).

Service wise, they are very good. It's very personalized service, they come and greet you by name, take your order like a restaurant and follow up throughout the flight. The DXB-HKG leg, I think the young steward turned on me because I just wanted to sleep. He was not the same friendly fellow who greeted me by the end of the flight I think he viewed me with disgust.

So it is hit and miss and definitely not all cupcakes and puppies at EK, but well done to them; they have worked with Dubai Airport, Dnata, to create a seemless experience, for those that don't care about adding ~7 hours to their journey in some cases.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 96):

so now you are blaming the culture, aka Americans for bad service...

and if you are talking about caucasian people in general

QF and NZ service levels are superior to US

don't blame the culture, blame the pathetic management- none of the big 3 should even exist after bankruptcy.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 104): All you have to do is google it, foreign construction workers who work on these massive projects are abused and not paid on time. That is slavery. It indirectly benefits EK.

Googling around will bring up dirt in every country. I am specifically requesting you to provide specific examples of slave labor in the aviation industry.

By extension of your logic; due to appalling working conditions in the meat packing; agriculture and construction industries that should be indirectly helping airlines as well. Now that is insane logic. And BTW, bad working conditions in the construction industry out here is not news to anyone - http://www.npr.org/2013/04/10/176677...-texas-but-many-workers-pay-dearly

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 112):

Its not an insane logic because slavery built AND expanded facilities EK uses.
Provides massive savings.
Reason why American carriers can't have an adequate facility vs DXB is because of the huge construction costs.

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):

I think it is not proffesional. Why is he advising sort of the airline's competitions ?

Quoting thekorean (Reply 98):

The exploitation is not at all present in the UAE (generally), they are not allowed to work before like 5PM due to the sun in the summer, hence the high high number of Indian and Pakistani expects doing construction and labour work.

Quoting RJ321 (Reply 115):

Thats what they say but evidence supports the opposite.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 98): Qatar is the stories are true.

Never disputed about QR. But like I said, not all the carriers are the same. Would you say Aeriflot, Lufthansa and Iberian are the same because they all came from Europe.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 98): The exploited labourers that build the airports and runways do benefit EK and EY indirectly although they do not use them per se.

Better ask the Obama administration to cancel Open Skies with China, India, Brazil, etc. Their airports were built with cheap labour too.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 113):

Calling it slavery is getting tiresome and offensive. If I was African American, I would find this entire discussion offensive in the extreme. You are comparing the lives of people who who voluntarily take up employment with a dastardly practice whose after-effects are still being felt generations later.

Do you have any idea what real slaves went through?

This is nearly as offensive as saying the holocaust didn't happen.

@RJ321

I suspect, "thekorean" has never been to Dubai. And he's certainly never been to India. He thinks workers in Dubai are enslaved. But no cries about workers in India building airports with worse conditions and worse pay.

Anybody who thinks the Middle East is bad, just needs to ask why all those workers are showing up. Wait till you see the job markets and labour conditions at home. Ask any worker in Dubai. "Mumbai/Dhaka/Peshawar construction site or Dubai construction site?" Don't need an answer. They vote with their feet.

Quoting ytz (Reply 57): Again. Wage differentials are a red herring.

No they're absolutely not. If US carriers could have the flexibility and cost structure of EK's crews, they'd make a lot more money. But alas they don't, and yet they still make more money than EK today.

Quoting enilria (Reply 50): So you are really saying that UAE's immigration policy is unfair, not that the airline has no right to operate additional flights in the USA?

Quoting ytz (Reply 57): And can't really be used as a strong argument for protectionism

Guys--I said *nothing* about protectionism. In fact I've been pretty clear that a) the US carriers can and do compete with the ME3 and b) they have much less to worry about than the EU carriers

Quoting UALWN (Reply 60): SQ, on the other hand, is 4 abreast in J in their 77Ws. A world of difference.

And yet SQ's growth has stalled. Must be that fabulous EK product  

Quoting Kashmon (Reply 92): How staff are treated indicated directly affects their service levels.

Tell that to QR staff

Quoting ricknroll (Reply 100): Like I can afford lie flat. Like the majority of airline customers, I will be looking for the best economy product.

People in economy overwhelmingly don't buy on service. The premise is laughable, especially on the ME3. They'll complain about service until the cows come home but they won't buy on service.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 118):

If you are forced in to work without pay what do you call it?

Again I am not calling flight attendants and pilots slaves.

Its the labourers from Nepal. It has been well documented that once they get to Dubai they have their passport taken away and cannot go home.

Slavery certainly isn't exclusive to UAE. Slavery in China doesn't benefit Chinese airlines. Chinese construction workers can at least feed their family with money they get paid. Chinese sweatshop may be a different story but that is not relevant as I never claimed slavery is exclusive to UAE.

Slavery is a term that is not exclusive to Blacks during 1800's. Give me a break. No where did I compare the two.

Place where these workers are from is bad so its ok to lie to them and treat them like garbage?

[Edited 2015-02-11 22:57:21]

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 24): Yes EK Chairman, we will "Improve". However, you must consider the following points first. 1. The USA is a democracy, not a dictatorship -- Qatar and the United Arab Emirates are absolute monarchies, which is pretty much a nice way of saying dictatorship. If the government of either country needs to get something done, it can do so with very little resistance. This is not the case here in America, where issues must be voted on before a ratification is made. In addition, most local control is handed down Federal Government -> State -> County -> City. With some exceptions, most airport infrastructure is left to the control of the local municipalities unlike in the UAE and Qatar where the monarch (dictator(s)) can control all aspects of every airport in their jurisdiction. 2. The USA has rules and regulations in place to protect workers -- In the USA, the OHSA, or the Occupational Health Safety Agency, exists to regulate safe working conditions for workers in our country. As said above, most workers in the UAE and Qatar have very little in the way of employee rights or unions. 3. Our airlines receive mostly no subsidies from the government, and none of our major carriers are owned by the government -- QR and EK are both owned by their respective states, and are heavily subsidized by oil profits. There would be no way that such a large subsidy would ever come from our federal government (sans the Air Transportation Stabilization Fund, which was years ago). In addition, our airlines are not owned by the state unlike the ME3.

1. You don't want the ME to be a democracy, they would vote for things you wouldn't approve, things that are less in line with America than their current policies. I don't recall any proposition on any U.S. ballot on whether things like the 9/11 fee or the CBP fee should be increased.

2. U.S. Citizens and LPR's do, someone without papers who is picking strawberries in Ventura or is working at a chicken factory in the heartland is as likely to run to OSHA as a South Indian building a new freeway in Dubai (with western companies like Balfour Beatty as a contractor btw)

3. I doubt UA's routes to places like DXB or KWI would exist without the U.S. Government. Many countries have state run airlines and almost all of Europe's carriers were state run not too long ago. If you sit in country that essentially owes everything to oil you'd think about diversifying too. The biggest 'subsidy' the ME carriers have is the lack of taxes. Perhaps the U.S. Government (and state/local gov't) would be well advised to think back to the era where a 1% income tax was thought of as outlandish and in fact required a constitutional amendment. As it stands, airlines in the U.S. are taxed as if they were a vice.

Quoting ytz (Reply 58): Quoting flyboy_se (Reply 55): Also, the American carriers complaining here? They outsource maintenance and get contract crews for lower wages from Latin America. And you can be sure they source all their supplies (including crew clothing) from the cheapest suppliers

Exactly. WN has been flying internationally for a long time actually once you include all those trips to SAL. What about Great Lakes, Mesa, GoJet personnel and all the airport contractors? How much do they make, where do they sleep, where do they park, at the terminal for $30 a day or in some slum within a mile of the airport? Their clothing contains so much polyester that they are a walking fire hazard. Airline, airline contractor or GSA airport personnel catalogues are full of uniform items made in the PRC, Viet Nam, or Bangladesh, no questions asked.

Quoting bgm (Reply 42): The hard product of most US carriers I find to be perfectly acceptable. The majority of the business class seats are lie flat now, and the economy cabin is comparable to other carriers, both in terms of seat pitch/width and IFE. The one area that lets the US carriers down is the soft product. For a country that prides itself on customer service, we sure do fail miserably when it comes to air travel. Having poorly-groomed, old grouchy dragons barking at you does not leave a positive impression. I know they've been through a lot, and the airlines don't really treat them well, but from a customer point of view, it is poor service.

It's hit and miss with the service and the courtesy. To me the biggest difference is the constant barrage of buy on board stuff, whether that's $7 for a cheap alcoholic drink or $8.99 for a lousy salad on a domestic flight. It's a bit tacky given the absence of high end choices. I wouldn't mind paying $30 for a filet mignon pre-ordered premium meal but $4 for a small box of Pringles or $9.49 for a 'sandwich' that consists of two big slices of bread, a small package of mayo and mustard and half a slice of roast beef? U.S. Airlines need to imitate someone better than 7-11.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17): Then in business they consider 7 across as acceptable on the 777's

BA and UA have 8 across in their 777 business class cabin... UA is likely going to have 10 across Y- seating in their next 777.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 120): And yet SQ's growth has stalled. Must be that fabulous EK product

No, it's not the fabulous EK product that makes the difference, but the fabulous EK network.

I know a few young Serbian mechanics who moved to AUH to work for EY. They have strict rules and regulations (most of the times totally stupid and useless) but it's far from being a slave camp, especially since they get really good money.

So which employees are exactly treated like slaves?

Quoting UALWN (Reply 123): No, it's not the fabulous EK product that makes the difference, but the fabulous EK network.

   Amen hallelu you can shut down the thread now. And maybe clue in the EK Chairman since apparently he can't buy one 

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17): There supposed "amazing" ICE IFE system is no better than any of the competitiors in this day and age.

You got to be kidding. ICE is mile ahead of many EU, American and other carriers. Even older version of ICE is better than some of current IFEs out there.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17): I find their cabin crew, are like robots... They have literally have the personality sucked out them and a Emirates microchip inserted up the back end. But in fairness they are consistent in this area.

You get that anywhere around the world on any carrier. At the end of the day, its a job and crew are human beings. The way we all can have off/odd day at the work, those people can have it too. Where else (barring ME3) you get mixture of crew who can speak various languages? that itself is a great feature of EK and rest 2 ME carrier. I am just quoting one of the features anyway, I never had any issues with EK crew.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 124):

No one is talking about mechanics or flight attendants. We are talking about labourers with no skills.

The US carriers (esp. UA) can improve significantly in Y. I've been a UA FFP for many years now, and have flown them enough to know. The only reason I stick to them is that EK have made FFP earnings on discounted Y fares very low, but otherwise there's no comparison on the product/ service. The UA FAs (not all, but quite a few) make it seem like they're doing passengers a favor by serving them food, and that they're there only for "safety". Sure, safety is important, but nothing in safety implies poor service.

Tim Clark is spot on when he says instead of whining to the US Govt, the US carriers should perhaps look at their service offering, and more importantly - their network to India (which is where the US carriers are losing passengers to the ME3). Sure - UA flies to BOM and DEL, but what else? Nothing. DL has made it clear that the Indian market is not important to it - the transatlantic market is where they're focused - hence both DL and VS exit BOM. AA quit India years ago.

Bottomline - India is of limited/ no interest to the US carriers, yet they are ready to go sobbing to Mommy when the ME3 focus on the same market (that the US carriers are not interested in)? Quite ironic!

Quoting thekorean (Reply 113): Its not an insane logic because slavery built AND expanded facilities EK uses. Provides massive savings. Reason why American carriers can't have an adequate facility vs DXB is because of the huge construction costs.

And the reason you have the current US economy was at the backs of slaves 200 years ago. It is ironic that a lot of management in the ME are actually from the "civilised" world as well, what does that tell you?

I see a lot of excuses given to why the US carriers cannot compete against the ME3, but I also see lots of threads extolling the profitability of these same carriers. You cannot shout unfair on one hand, and show your huge profits on the other. If these US carriers really were that disadvantaged they wouldn't be making their billions. I think they are just scared for their bonuses, not the US consumer or the Middle East worker.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 127): No one is talking about mechanics or flight attendants. We are talking about labourers with no skills.

Well, those are treated pretty badly all throughout eastern Europe...

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 6): Oh, I don't know much but what I know that this thread will be great fun. On my way to buy some popcorn....

N14AZ, you forgot to include the this caption.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 128): Bottomline - India is of limited/ no interest to the US carriers, yet they are ready to go sobbing to Mommy when the ME3 focus on the same market (that the US carriers are not interested in)? Quite ironic!

The US carriers want to funnel people through their JV's with BA, LH, or AFKL, at least that's my impression. The US carriers are just not interested in serving India themselves, with the exception of UA.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 131): N14AZ, you forgot to include the this caption.

Is that Michael Jackson in the Thriller video?

Quoting Nimish (Reply 128):

Well said, I agree 100%

Just look at food offerings, hospitality and entertainment in some of non ME3 carrier (barring SQ?) says it all.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 119): They vote with their feet.

With flip flops in 120F on a hot steel beam 1000 ft up without safety harness.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 119): Ask any worker in Dubai. "Mumbai/Dhaka/Peshawar construction site or Dubai construction site?" Don't need an answer. They vote with their feet.

If your statement is true, brand new BOM T2, DEL T3, CCU, HYD, BLR, COK would never been built with $1.50/hr labor.

For some of the 50,000 living in a slum next to BOM, T2 is a windfall opportunity, just like any infrastructure project in any country.

No need to take huge loans(fact)
No need to be away from family
No need to surrender passport
No need to surrender your religious freedom
Employer doesn't control your bank account
Work site is next to living place
and get this, it is "AT WILL" employment. You can walk away any time you want.

I am sure same is true for Bangladesh or Pakistan. Just because a country is poor doesn't mean citizens are slaves.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 119): Anybody who thinks the Middle East is bad, just needs to ask why all those workers are showing up. Wait till you see the job markets and labour conditions at home.

India lifted Millions out of poverty, more than any other country in modern history. Even Obama praised India for that.

So the suggestion ME is savior world's poor is bit of an exaggeration.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 118): Calling it slavery is getting tiresome and offensive.

Truth always hurts.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 70): They don't need to get $10,000 from loan shark to pay employment agent for a Dubai job, which they will never be able to repay. No need for passport or no one else keeping their passport restricting their movement.

whats the difference to a poor mexican trying to reach the US, only to then do those Jobs that an American does not want to do! I wonder how ´legal´ the guy is that cooked you last Taco and what he had to pay to get there to serve you in the good old US of A!

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 134): Truth always hurts.

Indeed. That's why outside a few fringe a.net elements nobody will take claims of "slavery" seriously at all. Least is all the Obama administration that these airlines are complaining to.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 134): India lifted Millions out of poverty, more than any other country in modern history. Even Obama praised India for that.

Not to take away from India's accomplishments, but a good chunk of Indian states have socio economic stats on par with the poor parts of Africa. Guess where a lot of the workers come from?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 134): If your statement is true, brand new BOM T2, DEL T3, CCU, HYD, BLR, COK would never been built with $1.50/hr labor.

Explain the logic please. Movement of some labour means every labourer in India would move to the Gulf? US pays IT workers and accountants better. Has that drained India if IT workers and accountants?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 134): So the suggestion ME is savior world's poor is bit of an exaggeration.

You are putting words in my mouth. Please pull the quote where I suggested that the "ME is a saviour of the world's poor". I suggested that as long there are strong wage and currency differentials, some workers will always move to sell more opportunity. No different that hundreds of thousands of H-1s coming to the US annually. Or on the labour side, thousands of South Americans who risk life and limb to cross the American southern border, just to do labour jobs in the USA. Are American companies taking advantage of " slave labour"? After all, if you quibble with your US employer, they simply won't renew your H-1.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 121): Place where these workers are from is bad so its ok to lie to them and treat them like garbage?

Straw man argument. Can you show (with stats not obfuscation) what percentage of employees in the ME are mistreated? You're saying all the employees are mistreated. Burden of proof is on you. I have merely said that are choosing to leave because conditions at home aren't better.

Like I said earlier. Wage differentials are huge. Compare the GDP per capita better the UAE and India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal and the Philippines.

This is analogous to the wealth differential between the USA and many Central American countries. Lots of American employers under undocumented workers. There's something like 10 million illegals in the US. Does that mean that US farmers and corporations use "slaves"? Better to put down that glass of orange juice.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 121): Slavery in China doesn't benefit Chinese airlines. Chinese construction workers can at least feed their family with money they get paid.

So Chinese infrastructure wasn't built with cheap labour? Really? How are all those new airports so cheap?

And again. Straw man arguments. The vast, vast majority of ME workers aren't slaves who make poor wages. If you say that the burden of proof is on you. Many are there because wages pay off handsomely when they return home. Indeed, in some parts of India, there are complaints about some of these workers upsetting the local economic balance when they return rich by local standards.

Don't forget 1 UAE Dhiram = 15 Indian Rupees.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 127):

I'm done discussing the slavery aspect. Not only is it inaccurate. It's offensive. I seriously hope you're trolling at this point and that you don't actually believe what you're writing. I can't believe that you'd compare people being taken under force of arms, families ripped apart, being declared tradeable property of a slave owner, as comparable to some employer taking an employee's passport.

If an employer takes your passport in the Gulf, you can still leave by contacting your embassy. They will issue alternate documents.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 134): With flip flops in 120F on a hot steel beam 1000 ft up without safety harness.

Are conditions any different in India? I'd say safety standards are higher in Dubai. From what I've seen. How many Indian construction workers even get a hard hat and safety shoes?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 134): I am sure same is true for Bangladesh or Pakistan. Just because a country is poor doesn't mean citizens are slaves.

Apparently the governments of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, and Philippines aren't so concerned as to stop their citizens from traveling and working there. And yet because of faux Western guilt, the US government is supposed to take up the cause?

Laughable. Let's be clear, to the extent that this even might be a concern, it'll never be part of the discussion about Open Skies. Heck, US Navy uses Jebel Ali and all that "slave labour" to get work done on its ships.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 136): Not to take away from India's accomplishments, but a good chunk of Indian states have socio economic stats on par with the poor parts of Africa. Guess where a lot of the workers come from?

That is true anywhere in the world. Michigan is not the same as Texas. Bihar is not same as Gujarat. Watch Brookings Institute workshop prior to Indian elections. Growth will depend on State policies in a Federal system. Just because Gujarat is fixed by Modi, doesn't mean entire India will prosper under his leadership.

Take aviation example. One state in India cut ATF tax to 1% from 16%. Neighboring states still have 16%-30%. Guess how many new flights started from that state.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 136): Explain the logic please. Movement of some labour means every labourer in India would move to the Gulf? US pays IT workers and accountants better. Has that drained India if IT workers and accountants?

It is up to individual if they want to find employment in the country or go else where. Your premise that Dubai is the place for dream job is wrong. You are making it sound like get a job in Dubai or starve in India, which is not true. Again Millions moved out of poverty and Indian middle class is fast growing.

Also your premise only ME has the secret sauce for success in aviation is misplaced. BOM T2 is far superior in architecture than many ME terminals.

Even saddled with taxes and regulations, Indian carriers are competing equally with ME carriers.

Of course paid ME PR makes sure that news is sealed.

Main issue, US carriers doesn't partner with third world carrier under several false premises like safety and or service quality. Their talking down of third world carriers further helps Gulf carriers. As simple as that.

Only way third world carriers can fight back ME is with the help of SQ and AC.

It's a red herring to argue that the US3 can't compete because of labour costs. They have money in the bank and are raking in even more. The idea that they can't afford to compete is bunk.

They may not be able to fly an A380 to the region to compete. But they most certainly can do more. Heck, while EK offers a bit more to Y. I don't think QR and EY are all that great. Bit more catering and luggage allowance? Is that really that hard to compete with?

Of course, were I a CEO of a major US airline, I'd complain exactly like they are doing now. Why improve service when you can complain and have lawmakers lock out the competition? Saves money for shareholders.

I was going to continue on more about what the American carriers do lack in EK, especially in terms of route networks to India, but that's for another thread more on that specific topic I think, since I don't want to derail it further to an SFO-DEL.
So instead, another tangential rant...

Quoting ua900 (Reply 122): To me the biggest difference is the constant barrage of buy on board stuff, whether that's $7 for a cheap alcoholic drink or $8.99 for a lousy salad on a domestic flight.

The buy-on-board options on US Airlines overall are lame. Overpriced alcohol is just the tip of the iceberg. The selections are just... Weak. On the airlines that do have options you are generally limited to weak and forgettable Snack boxes, and the few warm options are an absolute ripoff, like $9 for some tiny disgusting thing overloaded with bad cheese and sauces that might make you feel sick afterwards (The UA ham and cheese baguette is the one that comes to mind). When a salad is available (which is pretty rare), it's also usually pretty forgettable, the standard rabbit food with maybe a few bits of cheese, a couple slices of chicken, and some sauce packets. In some cases, a very flavorless cold sandwich.

And it's pathetic, looking at the buy on board offerings that foreign airlines offer. Better warm things that are probably actually recognizable, and much more selection! Heck, some, I don't remember specifics, practically have premium whole meals for purchase. It's expensive, but when cooped up in a transcon for 5-7 hours, after the rush to catch the flight with nothing to eat along the way, I'm sure there'd be many takers for more and better options!

That's not just the UA, AA, DL. That extends to B6 and VX also, our only 4 star carriers. (Ironically, I found UA's buy on board offerings to have a better value for money than VX's). And this is insane, because even Ryanair, freaking Ryanair appears to feature better options!

I'm not even going to consider the special options that carriers will option on say, Hawaii or JFK flights, because no, it's not worth considering those few special cases where they try a bit harder.

Sure, having better selection would be a little more weight, but how much?
And implementing it doesn't have to be a pain. VX and DY may have cutting edge systems integrated in to the Entertainment for it, but it doesn't have to be that. The other option I'd say is sitting right beneath everyone's noses; the Wifi. Process buy on board stuff right on peoples computers through the Wifi servers, it sends a notification to the FA's tablet, FA confirms it, and done.

I can think of so many times that I was stuck on a transcon, and even though I ate before the flight about 3 hours in the hunger returns full force. Now, that applies to international too, it would have been so lovely if when I was served that sad little croissant on UA IAH-LHR, if I could have purchased something else to help fill the remaining burning hunger (I'm not exactly a voracious person either, quite the opposite really, so I can only imagine how much worse it must have been for others). Or even better, since they don't offer a midflight snack, just purchase one! The prices may be a bit nuts for a meal, but some 3-7 hours in to some long flight, when that hunger hits and I'm stuck in the big carbon or metal tube, it'd still be a wonderful option.

Sorry for the rant on this, but this is definitely an area where US carriers could try a lot harder. The potential to make more money on it is sitting right under their noses, and they're still passing it up!

Going weak on the 'complimentary' meal in Y is one thing, but going so weak on the buy-on-board options, that someone will pay more for? Come on!

Sorry, I don't think the US airlines have any grounds to complain about foreign competition.
It's no secret that foreign governments all subsidize their home industries and airlines.
It's been in America's business culture to have a market as deregulated and unsubsidized as possible between business and government.
There is no more CAB to organize air markets and guarantee route profits. That was fought against and won.
So now the US airlines are on their own.
Compete on your own or surrender the route.

Quoting RJ321 (Reply 114): Why is he advising sort of the airline's competitions ?

He isn't advising them. He's countering their lobbying to the US Presidential administration.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 138): Your premise that Dubai is the place for dream job is wrong.

You keep putting words in my mouth. Please show the quote where I said that "Dubai is the place for dream job".

I said that the wage and currency differentials draw workers there.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 138): You are making it sound like get a job in Dubai or starve in India, which is not true.

Again, putting words in my mouth. No where did I say somebody would starve by staying home. I said that they would face worse prospects at home and that's why they leave. Worse prospects does not equate to starvation. The choice for many of these labourers is simple. They can work in the Gulf for 15-20 years and make enough money to have a decent retirement in India with some property, or they can stay in India, and work for 40 years and not have the same amount of security. India, **for some workers** (before you twist my words), offers less opportunity than the Gulf. Why keep telling them they are "slaves" when they or their governments don't think they are?

If anybody here really believes this codswallop about "slavery", they should start campaigning for the Indian government to ban its citizens from working in the Gulf. I'm sure that would do wonders to improve the US-India relations. Imagine that conversation: "Prime Minister Modi, we think your citizens are treated like slaves in the Gulf. We'd like to start a trade war with the Gulf and that should cut remittances by a substantial amount to your country. Those surplus workers may well move home too and increase the unemployment rate. But you know, we really care about your citizens."

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 138): Again Millions moved out of poverty and Indian middle class is fast growing.

That's great for those folks. And yet, it hasn't stopped millions from leaving India (the Indian diaspora is one of the largest in the world) for opportunity elsewhere. You and I are Indians living in the West. If India was so great, why are our families here?

I don't even get why we're having this discussion. Why aren't you trying to convince the millions of Indians in the Gulf that they are better off staying home if you really believe this? Heck, why aren't you moving back to India if it's so great? Surely, Hyderabad is better than Detroit, no? And surely, you can get better pay and working conditions there, right?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 138): Also your premise only ME has the secret sauce for success in aviation is misplaced.

Again, words in my mouth. "Secret sauce"? No. No more than Hong Kong and Singapore have some "secret sauce".

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 138): Indian carriers are competing equally with ME carriers.

Is that why they carry more Indian passengers than any Indian airline?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 138): Of course paid ME PR makes sure that news is sealed.

Bogeyman in the dark.... They don't need to pay anyone. There's lots of news that the carriers make on their own that shoots themselves in the foot:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/tr...d-Birmingham-Airport-48-HOURS.html

EK doesn't need to pay the media. I'm sure that family missing the wedding or funeral called the newspaper themselves.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 138): Main issue, US carriers doesn't partner with third world carrier under several false premises like safety and or service quality. Their talking down of third world carriers further helps Gulf carriers. As simple as that. Only way third world carriers can fight back ME is with the help of SQ and AC.

And the US carriers should follow suit. I've always maintained that. Use the Indian carriers as local feeders. My problem is that they don't compete. And then you get people making all kinds of excuses here on their behalf.

Again, it's a red herring to argue that the US3 can't compete because of labour costs. They have money in the bank and are raking in even more. The idea that they can't afford to compete is bunk.

And again, why aren't they bypassing Europe and going directly to South Asia and the Middle East?

Instead, they keep making excuses and when passengers vote with their wallets, they cry for government protection.

When an airline can't draw passengers in its home country to compete with a foreign carrier, where it has a feeder network and lots of ff subscribers, I question their effectiveness. By all rights, the US3 should be trouncing the ME3. They have home court advantage.



[Edited 2015-02-12 08:03:48]