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UAEflyer
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EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:49 am

Very interesting interview with EK top man, he sent a message through this interview with Bloomberg to US airlines: Improve so people choose you.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...e-will-choose-you-when-you-improve
 
MaverickM11
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:54 am

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):
Very interesting interview with EK top man, he sent a message through this interview with Bloomberg to US airlines: Improve so people choose you.

Dumb. US Carriers are reporting much higher margins than EK. And before anyone says "but...but...bankruptcy!", US carriers were already 4+ decades in the making when, EK started in the 80s, and EK doesn't have to deal with a fraction of the regulations, costs, and labor issues that US carriers do.
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KarelXWB
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:57 am

At least he's saying it nicely. Qatar Airways CEO Al Baker simple said "competitors don't have the stomach to compete".
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bennett123
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:59 am

Well if they are making bigger margins, then perhaps they should reduce the price and compete on that.

Alternatively, they could invest more in the product.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 3):
Alternatively, they could invest more in the product.

They have collectively invested billions in product. UA and DL are all lie flat longhaul and AA will be soon. EK?
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roseflyer
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:11 pm

I think it is a bit ridiculous to simplify air travel to the statement "offer the best service and passengers will fly you". If it was that simple, aviation would be far different.

In the United States many airports receive little or no government money. How much did Emirates pay for its fancy airport and terminals whereas US airlines are paying double or triple the landing fees. How about following realistic labor laws that protect your employees? There are so many reasons that US and European airlines have a hard time competing with emirates that it angers me when he says arrogant things like offer the best service and it will solve your problems.
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N14AZ
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:29 pm

Oh, I don't know much but what I know that this thread will be great fun. On my way to buy some popcorn....
 
TonyBurr
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:35 pm

I think he is correct. Maybe US AIrlines have a profit, but their product and service are horrible. UAL with J. Smisek is going down the tube in quality like a tornado. If UA, etc all offered the quality of EK, than people would chose them. Tell UA, etc, to stop whinning and improve.
 
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enilria
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Dumb. US Carriers are reporting much higher margins than EK.

Which is why it is ridiculous for the U.S. carriers to be threatened by 3 airlines with hubs on the other side of the world.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Which is why it is ridiculous for the U.S. carriers to be threatened by 3 airlines with hubs on the other side of the world.

I agree--it's the EU's problem more than anything.

Quoting TonyBurr (Reply 7):
If UA, etc all offered the quality of EK, than people would chose them.

No they wouldn't. This never ever happens in any meaningful way. If it did, SQ's profits would not be stalling.
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S75752
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
UA and DL are all lie flat longhaul and AA will be soon.

They're all going Lie Flat longhaul, yeah. Peer pressure.
...Now let's see them improve Economy. I'd say DL is definitely one on the lead of that effort.

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):

Which is why it is ridiculous for the U.S. carriers to be threatened by 3 airlines with hubs on the other side of the world.

I don't even see why they're threatened. EK takes a bit of what traffic... Some Middle Eastern (that the US airlines just JV away anyways, YMMV if the locations to get funneled through are a pain or not), and a decent chunk of India traffic? Maybe some East African traffic?
 
JU068
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:58 pm

Well, if certain governments were more business friendly then the ME3 would not have been such a threat. Don't hate them coz you ain't them.

Obviously the ME3 are far from perfect but at least their respective governments are supporting them.
 
PanHAM
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:00 pm

Whatever the ME3 say, they cannot win the Argument against them that they have "better" work conditions. US carriers as well as European have to obey to work and social standards which are simply not existant in the Middle East countries and I am not only speaking of the fact the unions are unheard of there. An expat is simply employed as a slave, that is written in the Arabic version of the contract. May be that European and US expats are not treated as such, but that lasts only as long as they are obedient employees. If not, they are kept in the countries and not given an Exit visa, they have to hide or are eventually jailed.

The ME3 are not only taking away Business from US and EU carriers, much more they take Business away from Asian and African carriers kainf life difficult for them.
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Miami
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:08 pm

I agree with him. And it's the truth, unfortunately.

It would get very interesting if US carriers would respond.
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hz747300
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:11 pm

I agree that the impact is less on US carriers, I cannot believe for example that N.A. to India / South Asia is so large as to be stealing traffic. It would be impacting European carriers, likely Asia, including India, carriers too.

My wife just went to London for business, and I tagged along, but I flew cheaply on EK via Dubai. From HK, my ticket cost was half of hers. And DXB is an amazing place to transit, it's all done up really well and it shows what market they are targeting. However, I was 23 hours 42 minutes, door-to-door on the way there, and 21 hours 6 minutes door-to-door on the way back. If it were not for cost, it wouldn't be competitive, it's exhausting. By the time I was boarding in Dubai, she would only few hours from landing, and I took off 6 hours before her flight.

The one thing I will say, is that because EK did it early, and did it right, I don't think that the others can compete. By others, I mean QR and EY. There can only be so many people flying that route. And with CX launching Dusseldorf, Boston, Zurich, and Manchester going daily, I think Hong Kong and Cathay are going to put up a fight.

I still prefer Cathay service over Emirates, better programs on the IFE!
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MaverickM11
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 13):
It would get very interesting if US carriers would respond.

"We'll improve when you stop treating your workers like slaves." Good luck on both accounts.

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 14):
My wife just went to London for business, and I tagged along, but I flew cheaply on EK via Dubai. From HK, my ticket cost was half of hers. And DXB is an amazing place to transit, it's all done up really well and it shows what market they are targeting. However, I was 23 hours 42 minutes, door-to-door on the way there, and 21 hours 6 minutes door-to-door on the way back. If it were not for cost, it wouldn't be competitive, it's exhausting. By the time I was boarding in Dubai, she would only few hours from landing, and I took off 6 hours before her flight.

You just highlighted the biggest advantage the ME3 have--they're cheap. It has very little to do with product.
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Stitch
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:16 pm

The US carriers are behind when it comes to international levels of service to not just the ME3, but the EU and Asian carriers, as well.

But the domestic US market generates the bulk of their revenue (and profits) and that market is not subject to competition from the ME3, the EU or Asia.

I expect an investment in their international service to the level of the best of the ME3/EU/Asian operators would not generate anywhere near the necessary return because the US carriers are not being chosen for international travel based on their level of service, but on other factors (schedule, loyalty programs, corporate contracts, price, etc.).
 
gilesdavies
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:42 pm

Thats rich coming from a carrier that these days doesn't offer quality, but instead floods the market and pushes for business at the bottom of the margins!

While he tells the US carriers to improve, maybe he should look more closely in his own backyard! The A330, A340's and early 777's which they have had since the late 1990's to early 2000's have been crying out for a refurb in years.

Some have broken seats, faulty IFE and just worn out and tired. I don't think the interiors have been touched since delivery!

Then don't get me started on the 10 across in Y on the 777's which they were one of the pioneers and them thinking of going 11 across on the A380's. There supposed "amazing" ICE IFE system is no better than any of the competitiors in this day and age.

Then in business they consider 7 across as acceptable on the 777's!

Take for example the US carriers, US Airways have refurbed their A330-300's twice in the same time EK have had their A330's. They also now have the 4 across herringbone suites in Business.

Delta are working hard to offer a consistent service and product across their fleet. EK you have to take pot luck depending on what equipment arrives at the gate for the route you are flying.

I find their cabin crew, are like robots... They have literally have the personality sucked out them and a Emirates microchip inserted up the back end. But in fairness they are consistent in this area.

The only area Emirates are better in, is their premium products on the ground with far superior lounges, especially at their DXB base. But to an extent I find it all a little over the top in grandeur and bling, when all I need is a peaceful quiet surroundings with comfy seating, areas to work (if required) and snacks.

[Edited 2015-02-11 06:06:01]
 
roseflyer
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
The US carriers are behind when it comes to international levels of service to not just the ME3, but the EU and Asian carriers, as well.

This gets repeated quite a bit on A.net, but I don’t really think that is true. There are many different aspects of service. At some the US airlines are better and some they are worse. There are some areas where US airlines could do better, but it would raise ticket prices which presents a problem.

1. Airport experience. I believe US airline lounges tend to be a bit lower quality when it comes to food, showers and amenities. There is room for improvement. Check in and ticketing staffing tend to be at the bare minimum levels. An improvement in service would come at a cost.
2. Airport infrastructre is weak, but again facility charges and landing fees are the primary revenue source which means ticket prices go up. The US government does not use tax money to build airports and keep landing fees low. Users pay for airports and better infrastructure would add cost.
3. Onboard food. In general economy food is not that great on all airlines. While not stunning, I don’t find it terrible either. Catering budgets tend to be a bit lower on US airlines. An improvement in food quality would come at a cost.
4. Staff and crew. US airlines are not good at maintaining the same service standards as some international brands. Due to unions and generally the American style, sometimes you get great crews and sometimes you end up with overworked exausted crews. Increasing staffing or increasing pay would help, but again at a cost.
5. Reservations. If you can’t do it online, you get charged and reservations staffing levels tend to be low when significant schedule disruptions happen.

The Middle East airlines have some cost advantages which allow them to offer better service for the same ticket price. I don’t think it is possible for a US or even many European airlines to match the service levels of the Middle East airlines at their cost structure.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
I expect an investment in their international service to the level of the best of the ME3/EU/Asian operators would not generate anywhere near the necessary return because the US carriers are not being chosen for international travel based on their level of service, but on other factors (schedule, loyalty programs, corporate contracts, price, etc.).

I absolutely agree.
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EPA001
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
At least he's saying it nicely.

He does. And he has a pint imho.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
Qatar Airways CEO Al Baker simple said "competitors don't have the stomach to compete".

Well we all know how much Al Baker likes to make himself quoted.  
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
The US carriers are behind when it comes to international levels of service to not just the ME3, but the EU and Asian carriers, as well.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 18):
This gets repeated quite a bit on A.net, but I don’t really think that is true.

That's been my general experience, but then I only fly First/Business.

I will note that I find US premium cabin crews to be generally very good, it's the food and IFE that have been more the "issue".
 
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enilria
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 9):
Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Which is why it is ridiculous for the U.S. carriers to be threatened by 3 airlines with hubs on the other side of the world.

I agree--it's the EU's problem more than anything.
Quoting S75752 (Reply 10):
I don't even see why they're threatened. EK takes a bit of what traffic

The U.S. carriers never cared about "low yield flying" to India and only barely cared about the Middle East after the very same oil price run-up that enriched the ME3.

According to the airline trade group A4A, 26% of all U.S. airline revenue goes to or will go federal taxes. The tax burden in the U.A.E. is 0%. Is that a subsidy? They are accusing the ME3 of receiving the benefit of the very same thing they constantly lobby the U.S. government to do, reduce and eliminate taxes on air travel. ROTFL

http://airlines.org/news/a4a-urges-r...al-to-hike-taxes-on-air-travelers/

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
US carriers as well as European have to obey to work and social standards which are simply not existant in the Middle East countries and I am not only speaking of the fact the unions are unheard of there.

...or they can just use contractors that they hired and pretend they have no idea what is going on.   

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...-contractors-uniform-union-low-pay
 
roseflyer
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
I will note that I find US premium cabin crews to be generally very good, it's the food and IFE that have been more the "issue".

It is hard to make conclusions in my opinion. I flew a 13 hour business class flight with United and was very happy with the service and food. The crew were very kind and gracious and showed their experience. The seat worked perfectly, the AVOD IFE was very extensive. I felt it was about as good as of an experience in the air as you can get. All airlines will occasionally serve a bad meal. I've had flavorless beef on Asiana business class. I have had undercooked cold beef served in Cathay Pacific business class. I have had sloppy tasteless food on United as well. I felt just as comfortable and happy on UA with the service in the air as with Lufthansa, Cathay Pacific or one of many other long haul airlines that I have flown recently. United and Delta offer fully flat business class cabins on almost every flight over 6 hours, which is something that Emirates does not offer on the majority of their flights. Emirates executives can comment about beautiful well staffed airports and some of the most attractive flight attendants and they are superior in that arena. However that isn't related to them having a cost structure that can't be replicated outside of the Middle East.

It is easy for an executive at Emirates to say that it is service which is why they attract all the business and market share that they do. In reality, I believe that service quality compared to airlines like Air India and PIA does make a difference since connecting in DXB is much better than most airports in India or Pakistan. However when competing against European or American airlines, the service differential is not as significant. I believe they take market share because of a cost structure that is favorable to them based on politics, government influence, labor laws, etc.

For American consumers, I have a feeling that price is truly what is motivating much of the business and not service. For example, Emirates & Etihad frequently offer flights between the USA and India for less than $1000 round trip. I don't think the US airlines will ever be able to offer 7500 mile roundtrip flights for that low of a price and earn money. Fuel cost alone for that distance for a single economy seat is going to be around $600 or $700 per person. I don't know any airline that can earn money with those fares.

[Edited 2015-02-11 07:01:57]
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MaverickM11
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
The US carriers are behind when it comes to international levels of service to not just the ME3, but the EU and Asian carriers, as well.

The EU ship has sailed. At least in J and Y they're joining us over here in the new world regularly.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
I expect an investment in their international service to the level of the best of the ME3/EU/Asian operators would not generate anywhere near the necessary return because the US carriers are not being chosen for international travel based on their level of service, but on other factors (schedule, loyalty programs, corporate contracts, price, etc.).

People overwhelmingly do not choose travel based on service. They do however overwhelmingly complain about it. The ME3 are affordable, and they provide connectivity to regions with weak carriers--add in a shiny object in F and J and some PR and you've got the recipe down. I wouldn't be surprised at all if EU and US carriers made far more money up front than the ME3, who probably make the bulk of their money in Y.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 17):
Thats rich coming from a carrier that these days doesn't offer quality, but instead floods the market and pushes for business at the bottom of the margins!

It's a little disappointing coming from the likes of Tim Clark. It's like hearing Herb Kelleher saying that LCCs really need lounges to be successful.

[Edited 2015-02-11 06:43:09]
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lpdal
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:45 pm

Yes EK Chairman, we will "Improve". However, you must consider the following points first.

1. The USA is a democracy, not a dictatorship -- Qatar and the United Arab Emirates are absolute monarchies, which is pretty much a nice way of saying dictatorship. If the government of either country needs to get something done, it can do so with very little resistance. This is not the case here in America, where issues must be voted on before a ratification is made. In addition, most local control is handed down Federal Government -> State -> County -> City. With some exceptions, most airport infrastructure is left to the control of the local municipalities unlike in the UAE and Qatar where the monarch (dictator(s)) can control all aspects of every airport in their jurisdiction.

2. The USA has rules and regulations in place to protect workers -- In the USA, the OHSA, or the Occupational Health Safety Agency, exists to regulate safe working conditions for workers in our country. As said above, most workers in the UAE and Qatar have very little in the way of employee rights or unions.

3. Our airlines receive mostly no subsidies from the government, and none of our major carriers are owned by the government -- QR and EK are both owned by their respective states, and are heavily subsidized by oil profits. There would be no way that such a large subsidy would ever come from our federal government (sans the Air Transportation Stabilization Fund, which was years ago). In addition, our airlines are not owned by the state unlike the ME3.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
At least he's saying it nicely. Qatar Airways CEO Al Baker simple said "competitors don't have the stomach to compete".

Yes, and Amad Al-Baker doesn't have the stomach to admit that most of his airlines' workforce is basically slave labor.

-LPDAL

[Edited 2015-02-11 06:46:31]
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MVAair
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:53 pm

US carriers can improve to EK's levels when they pay even lower wages AND get an govt subsidy
 
MaverickM11
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
According to the airline trade group A4A, 26% of all U.S. airline revenue goes to or will go federal taxes. The tax burden in the U.A.E. is 0%. Is that a subsidy? They are accusing the ME3 of receiving the benefit of the very same thing they constantly lobby the U.S. government to do, reduce and eliminate taxes on air travel. ROTFL

26%>0% is a pretty big spread.

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
...or they can just use contractors that they hired and pretend they have no idea what is going on.   

Perhaps, but you ask that South Asian in the Gulf whose passport has been taken from him whether he'd like to continue there or make $9/hour at a subcontractor in the US with legal protections he couldn't even dream of...I wonder which he'd choose?

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 24):
Yes, and Amad Al-Baker doesn't have the stomach to admit that most of his airlines' workforce is basically slave labor.

But have you tried that fabulous product???  
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S75752
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):

I will note that I find US premium cabin crews to be generally very good, it's the food and IFE that have been more the "issue".

I'd take a massive guess that US Carrier business classes are fine - because that's what they actually put effort in. It's the Economy that they can get lazy with. DL I would say has taken the most effort to improve on that. UA is at least improving some qualities, especially so when the 744's leave the fleet, though still leaves much to be desired (those pathetically small and lazy meal portions, for one. Questionnable on time reliability, for two, at least in repeated personal experience).

I'm not so sure about AA, but the lack of any retrofit effort for the 763's and 752's does not look good at all.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 24):
workforce is basically slave labor.

With style and smiles. Please give credit where it is due. Or they are just tired and scared.
All posts are just opinions.
 
hohd
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:08 pm

The US carriers are making money, and don't have much traffic to lose to the ME3, except some to Middle East and to India. Why are they complaining. Are they afraid that the EK will start routes from USA to Europe or USA to Pacific enroute to DXB. The approval for those routes are not automatic and not part of the open skies treaty anyway.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:22 pm

I have just flown EK EU - India and I found the experience less than impressive.
I have flown in cattle class on the 77W and while it coud fit for most of the Asians, for any westerner of just more than average size is a pain. Shoulders space is so small that I have given up meals in two occasions. IFE is good, when it works. Quality of the meals also is of umbearable taste, but OK I am Italian, and you know,we are a little picky about the food.
I have seen the J and it looks crowded and outdated as well, apart of that artificial wood kitch finish . I had better J with LH, just to say. Maybe some people like that "yes Sir" attitude that the cabin crew shows, but for me it is just umbearable as the food.
Flights were late on 50% of the times.
So, unless the US carriers are really sooo bad (I do not flow them from a while) I guess EK wins just for the price, for the reason well explained up here.
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airbazar
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 3):
Well if they are making bigger margins, then perhaps they should reduce the price and compete on that.

Why? That's what drove them all into bankruptcy. The US carriers and the ME3 have very little overlapping markets in which they compete. If EK wants to be the Walmart of air travel then let them be. It's their choice but it doesn't necessarily makes them a better choice.
 
speedbird128
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting UAEflyer (Thread starter):

Frankfly EK can hardly trumpet about how good they are. I have flown them since 2000, and my last trip 2 weeks ago which was a J/Y combo ticket, ensured it will be the very last.

The J product on their 77W is rubbish. 7 abreast, as mentioned upstream is nothing at all worth bragging about. And then the rude crew and 10 across in Y, they can honestly keep it.

I am not 100% price sensitive however it is a factor, but I don't support Strikethansa, oops I mean Lufthansa, because frankly those twits need to catch a wake up as well and start priding themselves in the airline Lufthansa once was. I have no need to fly to the USA so I cannot comment on the mainline carriers product there, but the premium EK product is hardly all glimmer and gold anymore, and Y is just a 100% hardcore cattle class.

So as of now I won't be supporting EK. Have no desire to fly an extra 8 hours+ for my journey anymore either. I personally know crews (both flight deck and cabin) at QR and despite my burning desire to try their A359 offering, I refuse to support them on the basis of how they treat my friends there.

I hope you are reading this Sheikh Makhtoum and Tim Clark, I want to you to know your airline has, in my opinion got too big for itself (I did send a polite and objective letter about my last flight/s, however I guess it will never see either of your desks, covering several of the same issues I found last year). The personal touch your crew had back in June 2000 on that first flight on your A310 is long gone.
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airDFW
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 14):
I still prefer Cathay service over Emirates, better programs on the IFE!

I concur, I think Cathay IFE is the best with no censorship whatsoever.
 
roseflyer
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 32):

The J product on their 77W is rubbish. 7 abreast, as mentioned upstream is nothing at all worth bragging about. And then the rude crew and 10 across in Y, they can honestly keep it.

The A330s are even worse in business. I don't know of any premium service airline in the world that has 7 across business class on an A330 or A340.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 31):
If EK wants to be the Walmart of air travel then let them be. It's their choice but it doesn't necessarily makes them a better choice.

If they aren't the "better choice", why are the US3 running to Obama to get them locked out.

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Which is why it is ridiculous for the U.S. carriers to be threatened by 3 airlines with hubs on the other side of the world.

Indeed. And ditto for AC too. the US3+AC are all out to protect a portion of their JV profits. It's blatantly obvious. In the process, they hope to screw over consumers, to their own benefit.
 
speedbird128
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Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:30 am

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 34):
The A330s are even worse in business. I don't know of any premium service airline in the world that has 7 across business class on an A330 or A340.

Indeed. I agree - beyond rubbish.

Edit: however to be fair, their A345 is 'only' 6 across... Their 332 is 7 across in J and 6!!! across in F.

[Edited 2015-02-11 08:26:37]
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
S75752
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 34):
I don't know of any premium service airline in the world that has 7 across business class on an A330 or A340.

How is 7 abreast J even possible on a 330 or 340?! That's more like Premium Economy width!

So the irony there is that their economy is actually quite good (aside from 10 abreast), but their J is actually bad? Bizarre, I can't say I've really heard of that before...
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 30):
I guess EK wins just for the price, for the reason well explained up here.

Not just the price. I have seen EK to be sometime as expensive as other carriers. The single largest advantage that EK and other ME3 carriers enjoy is LOCATION LOCATION and LOCATION which has enabled them to have open up many secondary cities in Europe, India and to a certain extent in Africa. They have opened up city pairs that would otherwise have required 2 stops.
 
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Aquila3
Posts: 584
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:18 pm

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 38):
Not just the price. I have seen EK to be sometime as expensive as other carriers. The single largest advantage that EK and other ME3 carriers enjoy is LOCATION LOCATION and LOCATION which has enabled them to have open up many secondary cities in Europe, India and to a certain extent in Africa. They have opened up city pairs that would otherwise have required 2 stops.

You might be right for some locations, but my example was EU capital - India major city. There were plenty of one-stop alternatives, some of them with even shorter trip times. Add to that DXB seems to have a night transit model, you end up with a sleepless night there that effectively trashes 2 workdays for a 5-6000 nm trip.
So Iam not saying that if you want to do some small city pairs between EU and SE Asia they can have some location advantage, but I do not see it so prominent. I Stick with the wal-mart theory.
BTW, I did not find their FAs rude in Y, I am just sorry for them- Just to walk and push a cart on such aisles with all the cattle around must be a nightmare.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
SelseyBill
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 24):
The USA is a democracy, not a dictatorship

.....there's an interesting topic all by itself.......
 
blrsea
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:27 pm

US carriers are way behind in economy even against EU carriers in Economy. At least for travel to India in Economy, US carriers fail on four counts - Connectivity, Baggage allowance, food & IFE.

ME3 offers 1-stop service to even tier-2 cities in India, that not many carriers can match. Instead of transiting through places like LHR/CDG/FRA which are not Indian-friendly due to visa issues, transiting through ME and with just one stop beats competition.

BA/LH/SQ/CX/ME3 offer two free checked bags to India, against just one by AA/DL/UA.

Indian meal on almost all US carriers suck, whereas EK/BA etc operating from same airport seem to offer better meals, not to mention good selection of free alcoholic beverages.
Just the extra cost of baggage & drinks will mean that even if US prices are a little less, overall cost will be more & people move towards ME3.

DL is slowly improving on the IFE front, and Asian/ME carriers are much ahead, with the ME carriers offering good selection of Indian programs too.

And fares on EK are not cheap. I was looking at prices both in summer & winter of last year, and the prices were almost the same across airlines. Was debating between BA & EK, and chose EK as I wanted to avoid the horrible security in LHR (worse than TSA).
 
bgm
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Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:36 pm

The hard product of most US carriers I find to be perfectly acceptable. The majority of the business class seats are lie flat now, and the economy cabin is comparable to other carriers, both in terms of seat pitch/width and IFE.

The one area that lets the US carriers down is the soft product. For a country that prides itself on customer service, we sure do fail miserably when it comes to air travel. Having poorly-groomed, old grouchy dragons barking at you does not leave a positive impression. I know they've been through a lot, and the airlines don't really treat them well, but from a customer point of view, it is poor service.
 
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thekorean
Posts: 1798
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 40):

Being corrupt or clean is a different issue.
 
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adamh8297
Posts: 3264
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:28 pm

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:49 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 24):
2. The USA has rules and regulations in place to protect workers -- In the USA, the OHSA, or the Occupational Health Safety Agency, exists to regulate safe working conditions for workers in our country. As said above, most workers in the UAE and Qatar have very little in the way of employee rights or unions.

There are occupation health and safety laws in UAE and I've seen attention to safety issues on episodes of Ultimate Airport Dubai.

https://www.oshad.ae/en/pages/home.aspx
http://uaelaborlaw.com/#11

USA airlines are not the best at complying with the regs as well.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...-osha-violations-article-1.1876727
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AF, AM, BA, B6, CA, CO, CX, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, OU, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WE, WN
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18541
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:01 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 44):
USA airlines are not the best at complying with the regs as well.

Yes, OSHA regulations. Does EK want to comply with OSHA regulations? I think it's employees would appreciate it. And bonus--OSHA and UA aren't run by the same people  
I don't take responsibility at all
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 39):
but I do not see it so prominent.

It is prominent big time. That is the key game changer that the ME3 have brought to the table which end of line European & Australian carriers simply cannot bring on the Australia - Europe sector with the current aircraft technology available. Same with India major city to European NON hub cities OR Indian secondary cities and Europe/North America sectors.
India major city to major European city; yes you may be right; they may have a cost advantage, because if they price their ticket equal to or above the ticket price of a non-stop then people won't fly them and will pick a European legacy to wherever they are flying.

Please read this very interesting article - http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/th...e-in-europe-could-emirates-fly-to/
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8902
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 44):

Staged PR campaign vs free media.

Fact that a local news paper ran the story about violation shows there are checks and balances.

Squeaky clean image doesn't tell the real story until the end, usually too late.

Aviation is riddled with paid rating, analysis, social media sites. Some airlines with large PR budgets know how to take advantage, some don't.
All posts are just opinions.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
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RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:15 pm

Here is my take on the matter (and I think there is some merit to both sides):

EK beats US carriers (and the majority of EU carriers) on the following:
Soft-product
Hard-Product
Lounges
Service Standards
Age of Aircraft
Amenities
Transit Facilities
And (in general) price

US Carriers beat EK on the following:
Staff Working Conditions
Flexibility

I think it is quite easy to see why EK can say this with a little bit of smugness. They are cheaper and better than the competition.

The unfortunate truth is that why would anyone choose AA/UA/DL F/J/Y when EK can do it so much better in nearly every respect. People do not care about working/staff conditions in a free market and people are not walking with their feet because it signifies a value for money purchase. Have we all seen the EK F lounge in DXB- its FANTASTIC. This, when AA has no free hot food (bar soup) in their lounges and they charge for booze.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1785
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

RE: EK Chairman To US Carriers: Improve

Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 48):
Soft-product
Hard-Product

See, this is where i don't agree. I have flown on many airlines; and beyond at point all of them start looking and feeling the same - SQ,CX,VS,9W,NW,CO,UA,AA,DL,U2,AF,WN etc. to name a few. I have had good and bad experiences. I have heard people complain about airlines like SQ but praise AF for no reason and have seen do the opposite too. Soft-product or Hard-product are very subjective but most airlines belong to one particular league with subtle differences.

The best analogy i can give is cars; Audi, Mercedes, BMW, Acura, Infinity, Lexus are all in one league and if you compare similar trims of each model nothing is really out of this world and several yards apart; all of them will have subtle differences, subtle advantages and disadvantages. But none of them is a Rolls Royce or a Bugati Veyron. If they were, the no one could afford them. That is what i can say about airlines too. So, folks who say that the ME3 are winning on product quality and that US,European and Asian carriers like 9W&SQ can compete with ME3 and win back market share are mistaken. Regardless of the product people are not going to choose ME3 if those carriers are not offering the city pair that those people are looking to travel to; unless you are a heavily budget concious traveller willing to take a long detour at a throwaway price.

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