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Cockpit Video Recorder?

Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:56 pm

I was wondering, should airlines install cockpit video recorder, to give an eye view of what took place during a plane crash?
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:31 pm

Perhaps, but there are other things to consider:


  • Increased technological storage space necessary to house video data
  • What videos could/would reveal that the combo of sound+mech data don't
  • "Privacy" concerns would likely be raised, as they always are in these such things
  • The macabre factor, of seeing the results of a fatal impact if the camera were somehow able to continue recording
  • etc
  • I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
    egph
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:42 pm

    As LAX772 pointed out the macabre factor would be quite significant. It's bad enough that CVRs record a pilot's last words before death in fatal crashes, it's something else actually recoding moving images of a pilot's last moments. I'd imagine the unions would shoot this down from day one on privacy and dignity concerns. I think finding a way to live stream aircraft position data at the very least is enough to be getting on with for now, though that's another thread  
     
    FlyDeltaJets
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 4:51 pm

    The Unions are staunchly against it. Its written into the contract here that the airline will not implement technology like it aleand will work against any legislative efforts for requiring it .
    The only valid opinions are those based in facts
     
    4holer
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:06 pm

    Will never happen for a number of very good reasons which will never go away by arguing about it.
    Ghosts appear and fade away.....................
     
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    ADent
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:08 pm

    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
    Increased technological storage space necessary to house video data

    Should not be a huge deal with SSDs today. I know there is a lot of work to get certified, but technology is there today.

    Quote:
    What videos could/would reveal that the combo of sound+mech data don't

    What the screens look like. They should actually record the screens, maybe more so than the pilots. Also would clarify the pilots inputs, esp on airplanes with a yoke.

    Quote:
    "Privacy" concerns would likely be raised, as they always are in these such things
    The macabre factor, of seeing the results of a fatal impact if the camera were somehow able to continue recording
    etc

    These are not that different than the audio recording - but still valid concerns.
     
    32andBelow
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:33 pm

    There will always be the concern of airlines pulling the tape and getting pilots in trouble on a regular basis.
     
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    Tugger
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:02 pm

    It should definitely be and and should not be a big issue at all really. It is not that hard to place a camera on the header with a "fish eye" type view that does not show the pilots themselves but rather a view forward of the seat front. The pilots may come into view occasionally but otherwise they would not be normally in view. Only their hand's actions and the front and above panels would be visible.

    Honestly, why would there be an issue with something like this?

    Tugg
    I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
    There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
     
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    LAX772LR
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:45 pm

    Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
    There will always be the concern of airlines pulling the tape and getting pilots in trouble on a regular basis.

    Hence the "privacy" concerns. Not very easily dismissed.

    Quoting Tugger (Reply 7):
    Honestly, why would there be an issue with something like this?

    Did you miss the first 3 responses?
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
    rcair1
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:02 pm

    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
    What videos could/would reveal that the combo of sound+mech data don't
    Quoting ADent (Reply 5):
    What the screens look like. They should actually record the screens, maybe more so than the pilots. Also would clarify the pilots inputs, esp on airplanes with a yoke.

    Yes - this and images of who is manipulating what control.
    One of the things 'lost' with the the lost of 'steam gauges' is the imprint/marking that shows what the gauge was showing at impact. That physical evidence is gone.

    From an investigation standpoint, it make sense.

    Not sure it will ever get past the privacy concerns - but who know.

    People fall for the insurance 'recorders' you plug into your car that records your driving behavior and the basis that you get a reward. Of course, we are waiting for the first cases of denial of coverage because you were going 2mph over the speed limit.
    rcair1
     
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    Tugger
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:29 pm

    Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):
    There will always be the concern of airlines pulling the tape and getting pilots in trouble on a regular basis.

    Simply make it non-admissible for such things. Only for use after an accident. Negotiate the scope as they do with everything else.

    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 8):
    Did you miss the first 3 responses?

    Yes I did and I did not see them as that relevant in an argument to not have cockpit video. The only element I did not address in my post is the data volume but others had. Basically the "privacy issue" can be dealt with just as it was with the CVR. The video will show the actions of the pilots toward the panel and what the panel was showing (if something was not consistent with what the FDR shows it would be significant. And lastly it would show the numerous silent actions that occur all the time, from when a finger is pointed at something that catches a pilots eye, to where things were actually situated in the cockpit (toward the front, in the camera view).

    Heck if the pilots are worried about the video then allow the Captain to take the SSD at the end of each flight. NO one said the data recorder has to be in the tail. It is single point source of data and it would in some ways provide a second laying of data security by being in a different location in the plane

    What will be interesting is when the first accident occurs where there is a pilot's GoPro camera found. It sounds morbid and I don't mean it as I am "hoping for an accident", I am just curious. It is not like the public should ever be privy to the data and images but if done right and placed properly the worst would be not any worse than what already occurs currently when the audio is released. That is already edited prior to release and I do not recall any unauthorized releases (none that I know of).

    It really is not that big a deal if dealt with properly and without anger or fear-filled emotion.

    Tugg
    I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
    There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
     
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    LAX772LR
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:44 pm

    Quoting Tugger (Reply 10):
    I did not see them as that relevant in an argument to not have cockpit video.

    Well, there's your trouble right there.  

    Granted, I understand that what you're saying is that you disagree with the issues being raised; but the fact remains that there would be strong objection (based on those cited issues) regardless as to how one feels about the merit thereof. Unions will hate it. Privacy advocates will hate it. Airlines will balk at it.

    How do we know? Easy, because this is what's happened, every time the issue's been proposed.

    And not to impugn on your post at all, but none of the solutions you've offered are really all that new or novel. This isn't the first nor second go-around with the issue of cockpit cameras, and really nothing's changed since the last few times. Why would they this time?

    [Edited 2015-02-11 15:46:57]
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
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    Tugger
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:01 am

    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 11):
    Well, there's your trouble right there.  

    Granted, I understand that what you're saying is that you disagree with the issues being raised; but the fact remains that there would be strong objection (based on those cited issues) regardless as to how one feels about the merit thereof. Unions will hate it. Privacy advocates will hate it. Airlines will balk at it.

    How do we know? Easy, because this is what's happened, every time the issue's been proposed.

    And not to impugn on your post at all, but none of the solutions you've offered are really all that new or novel. This isn't the first nor second go-around with the issue of cockpit cameras, and really nothing's changed since the last few times. Why would they this time?


     


    Yes, I understand, and i try to note that this is all my meaningless opinion. Not some law that I insist others follow. And I know my observation may not be new but I think they can be valid points at least.

    The reasons why they would change?
    For one people are becoming more accepting of "video everywhere" and if the pilots themselves are in control of it then who knows? They already film themselves and many take video (OK probably a small percentage but there is no hard figures on it). I just know most pilots like taking video, of course that does not mean all airline pilots do.
    Another reason is that the container size for the data storage size has become so small that is can now be hand carried easily if needed. It is really just a hardened SSD.

    Tugg
    I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
    There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
     
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    LAX772LR
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:33 am

    Yes, but you're forgetting a really key element here: the "tombstone mentality" of the FAA/DOT............ basically, they don't move in a way that would impose costs upon an airline until there's tons of dead bodies resulting from an incident that the proposed regulation could've likely prevented, or at least mitigated.

    (Un)fortunately, we haven't seen that kind of incident yet, when it comes to cameras in the cockpit. In most of the deadly crashes of late, a cockpit camera would've just told the story from an additional viewpoint... they wouldn't really have changed/prevented anything.

    Until that changes, I doubt you'll see the FAA with sufficient will to impose cameras on the carriers; and as such, I doubt you'll see carriers with sufficient will to incur the cost or battle unions/advocates.
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
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    Horstroad
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:48 am

    If we didn't have CVRs by now and some crazy guys were to suggest recording the cockpit audio we would see the exact same arguments as above. Privacy ,(storage capabilities when remembering the time it actually got introduced) etc.
    But it is there. If we had video for decades like we have voice recording, no one would complain.
    I think it might actually help as much as or even more than cockpit voice recording. The arguments are invalid as they apply to voice recording as well and nobody cares.
    Cockpit entrances/forward galleys are already under video surveillance on some airlines.
    The technology is there and ready, people just need to get there minds straight.
    After all it's a work place. Pilots are not supposed to do private stuff there. How much privacy does a cashier get with houndres of people walking by there counter or a construction worker building a road?
     
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    LAX772LR
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:04 am

    Quoting horstroad (Reply 14):
    If we had video for decades like we have voice recording, no one would complain.

    Probably true. But the fact is, that we don't. That was then, this is now.

    And now, in this current sociopolitical climate, that'd be a hard thing to get through.
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
    benjjk
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:33 am

    Quoting ADent (Reply 5):
    What the screens look like

    Have you seen what happens when you try and film a screen? On movie sets any TVs are actually just a blank image due to the differing frame rates, and whatever the people are watching is edited in.

    And in any case the FDR can replicate what was shown to the pilots.

    Although I believe the privacy complaint is pretty flimsy, I think there are not enough benefits to be gained from putting cameras in the cockpit to make the war against the unions worth it.
     
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    7BOEING7
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:34 am

    Quoting benjjk (Reply 16):
    Have you seen what happens when you try and film a screen? On movie sets any TVs are actually just a blank image due to the differing frame rates, and whatever the people are watching is edited in.

    Not a problem -- Boeing has used a video system to record the cockpit instruments/displays for over 20 years with no issues during certification flights.
     
    rugger
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:16 am

    Just install the cameras, tell the pilots they are there and if they don't like it they can quit. See how many stay. There are always a boatload of guys waiting to take over those jobs and the pilots know it.
     
    KAUSpilot
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:26 am

    Quoting Rugger (Reply 18):

    Too bad for you we have unions and there isn't a damned thing you can do about it. I say we put a camera in your cubicle and laugh at you every time you pick your nose. So until someone much smarter than you engineers us out of airplanes, we'll stick around without cameras. Deal with it.
     
    bobdino
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:35 am

    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
    Increased technological storage space necessary to house video data

    Not an issue at all. 64GB of storage would get you 3h of 4K video or 7h of 1080p. An SD card is 32x24x1mm.
     
    Mir
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:46 am

    Quoting benjjk (Reply 16):
    Although I believe the privacy complaint is pretty flimsy,

    It's not flimsy at all. With audio, you can make a transcript that you can release to the public. That doesn't really work with video, so you're going to have more pressure to release portions of the video to the public. That's a problem.

    -Mir
    7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
     
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    Tugger
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:33 pm

    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 13):
    Yes, but you're forgetting a really key element here: the "tombstone mentality" of the FAA/DOT............ basically, they don't move in a way that would impose costs upon an airline until there's tons of dead bodies resulting from an incident that the proposed regulation could've likely prevented, or at least mitigated.

    (Un)fortunately, we haven't seen that kind of incident yet, when it comes to cameras in the cockpit. In most of the deadly crashes of late, a cockpit camera would've just told the story from an additional viewpoint... they wouldn't really have changed/prevented anything.

    Until that changes, I doubt you'll see the FAA with sufficient will to impose cameras on the carriers; and as such, I doubt you'll see carriers with sufficient will to incur the cost or battle unions/advocates.

    I don't disagree with you.

    Quoting bobdino (Reply 20):
    Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 1):
    Increased technological storage space necessary to house video data

    Not an issue at all. 64GB of storage would get you 3h of 4K video or 7h of 1080p. An SD card is 32x24x1mm.

      
    I could easily create a crash survivable system that has a fully removable SSD that a captain could take with them at the end of the flight. The airline need never have control of it.

    Quoting Mir (Reply 21):
    Quoting benjjk (Reply 16):
    Although I believe the privacy complaint is pretty flimsy,

    It's not flimsy at all. With audio, you can make a transcript that you can release to the public. That doesn't really work with video, so you're going to have more pressure to release portions of the video to the public. That's a problem.

    Why would it be different? Of course it is not identical but it would be handled similarly. There might be stills released if needed of critical times and perhaps a portion of the video would be shown but that's about it. Or just limit its use to only internal to the investigation. How often has the audio been released unauthorized or uncontrolled?

    How is the privacy an issue in this when the data is already being retained for voice and actions (FDR)?

    Tugg
    I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
    There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
     
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    LAX772LR
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    RE: Cockpit Video Recorder?

    Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:06 pm

    Quoting bobdino (Reply 20):
    Not an issue at all. 64GB of storage would get you 3h of 4K video or 7h of 1080p. An SD card is 32x24x1mm.
    Quoting Tugger (Reply 22):
    I could easily create a crash survivable system that has a fully removable SSD that a captain could take with them at the end of the flight. The airline need never have control of it.

    Again, you guys are too focused on the "We could do it!" aspect versus the one the airlines/regulatory bodies would care about, i.e. "What is the cost, versus the immediately-preventative benefit?"

    I'm well aware that we can do it. Hell, any given cell phone can have such memory.

    But even if the cost is only measured in cents, that's going to be millions when mandated throughout the American fleet... and who's going to shoulder that cost?

    I understand that you may feel that it's a negligible assertion, but that is a very Very VERY real point of contention that would (and historically has always been) brought against the idea of imposing cameras. And the Tombstone Agencies FAA/DOT has always been very cautious on its cost/benefit comparisons for imposition.
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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