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zrs70
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 54):
The thing I don't like about this is, is that if the error would have made the tickets more expensice the airline most likely would't have done a thing.

On what basis do you say this? There have been a few times when an airline has proactively refunded an overcharge to me.
21 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2021
 
ytz
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:33 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 55):
unethical

I would challenge whether getting a cheap fare is unethical. It's a business transaction. If a business doesn't want certain customers taking advantage, the onus is on them to design the process to prevent that.

The persecution of skiplagged was even dumber.
 
airplan727
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting Flyer732 (Reply 53):
You do understand that the cost of a first class passenger in the seat is no where close to what they charge? The cost of the meal is roughly $30-$40, add in some for drinks, and that's that. You didn't see Etihad refuse to honor their mistake fares, where people were getting USA-Multiple destinations around the world for under $200. Granted those were in economy class, but they still sold thousands of tickets, and not only have they honored them, they even posted on their social media pages on the best way to enjoy the destinations that people were getting the mistake fares to.

You're only focusing on the services provided at the time of flight. It costs an airline money in fuel to put those extra meals on the plane, have the big HEAVY fancy seat, more water, baggage, etc. by adding these extra passengers. The airline regardless of who it is needs to be able to take in more than they spend in payroll across the board, fuel, food, drinks, maint, etc when they decide the prices to charge. A few planes full of first class pax only paying $70 can almost make it a certainty that the flight will be operated at a loss. It costs an airline way more than $30-$40 to fly a pax from A-B. If that was the case they'd fill the plane up with $100 tickets every time and celebrate over 100% profit!
 
lpdal
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:47 pm

The court is going to go off laws, regulations, and the contract of carriage, not what somebody's opinion of a law is. As noted above, should a judge decide to hear case like this, what is your case? That United posted $85 fares on a Danish site in which people had to actually go out of their way to get to, use fake addresses to check out with (the Judge would probably throw it out at that point anyway, as that breaks United's contract of carriage by the end user providing false information), and use Western Union to check out...?

Does anyone honestly believe that a Judge would even hear that case?

-LPDAL
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Osubuckeyes
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:54 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 59):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/399.88

UA cancelled the tickets. If consumers decide they want to file a complaint with DOT, UA will likely reinstate. Most probably won't bother and say "oh well".

DL had a glitch 12/2013 selling domestic Y and F. They honored it and got plenty of good PR, and probably gained a few customers.
 
777STL
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:56 pm

I would imagine the fact that the vast majority of people that took advantage of this used fraudulent personal information to do so would make this a non-starter in any court room.
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a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:56 pm

why is the moral police out in full force ? this is not the church, and we're not asking for repentance.

The entire question lies upon whether UA's actions are in compliance with DOT regulations. It's about the legality, not the morals and ethics.
 
zrs70
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 62):

why is the moral police out in full force ? this is not the church, and we're not asking for repentance.

The entire question lies upon whether UA's actions are in compliance with DOT regulations. It's about the legality, not the morals and ethics.


Why is it ant the former and not the latter? According to whom?
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a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 63):

Why is it ant the former and not the latter? According to whom?

If you're talking about the court of law, only the legality of an action matters. The UA MillionMiler status case has already shown that - the judge has called UA all sorts of names for their deceptive business practices, but fail to rule against the *legality* of their actions.
 
B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 61):
I would imagine the fact that the vast majority of people that took advantage of this used fraudulent personal information to do so would make this a non-starter in any court room.

What fraudulent information? Do you mean the billing address? Your billing address and your residential address are not the same thing. You can call to your credit card company and change your billing address to anywhere in the world. With paperless statements the whole notion of billing address is outdated.
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777STL
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 62):
why is the moral police out in full force ? this is not the church, and we're not asking for repentance.

The entire question lies upon whether UA's actions are in compliance with DOT regulations. It's about the legality, not the morals and ethics.

You bought a ticket, huh?

The fact that you used fraudulent address information to make the system think you live in Denmark is probably enough to *legally* violate the contract of carraige and to void your ticket. I find it even more amusing that while you realize what you did isn't on the up and up, you're ok with that.

I don't understand why people are getting so emotional and indignant over this. You knew it was a mistake on United's part and you had to spoof your address to game the fare anyway, so why get so upset over it? Did you really think United was going to sell you a first class TA fare for pennies on the dollar? C'mon people, be realistic. Don't get your panties in a bunch because you got busted trying to exploit an error.
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B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 66):
The fact that you used fraudulent address information to make the system think you live in Denmark is probably enough to *legally* violate the contract of carraige and to void your ticket
Quoting 777stl (Reply 66):
you had to spoof your address to game the fare anyway,

Read what I wrote.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 65):
What fraudulent information? Do you mean the billing address? Your billing address and your residential address are not the same thing. You can call to your credit card company and change your billing address to anywhere in the world. With paperless statements the whole notion of billing address is outdated.

Your billing address doesnt matter.
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777STL
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 65):
What fraudulent information? Do you mean the billing address? Your billing address and your residential address are not the same thing. You can call to your credit card company and change your billing address to anywhere in the world. With paperless statements the whole notion of billing address is outdated.

Of course, the spirit of what you're doing is still fraud. And how many people actually went through the trouble to change their credit card billing address to somewhere in Denmark, anyway? Why would you be purchasing an airline ticket through United's Danish website if you weren't trying to take advantage of an error?

You can rationalize it all you want to, it's still fraud.
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B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:20 pm

Besides that, I think United is in violation of the EU single market where you cannot discriminate based on residence, at least not for EU residents.
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777STL
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 67):
Your billing address doesnt matter.

Manipulating the system in a manner it wasn't meant to be used is *fraud*.
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777STL
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 69):
Besides that, I think United is in violation of the EU single market where you cannot discriminate based on residence, at least not for EU residents.

That's irrelevant since it was obviously an error. I'd venture to guess the vast majority of the people that took advantage of this were US residents anyway which makes your point further moot.
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a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 66):

I don't understand why people are getting so emotional and indignant over this. You knew it was a mistake on United's part and you had to spoof your address to game the fare anyway, so why get so upset over it? Did you really think United was going to sell you a first class TA fare for pennies on the dollar? C'mon people, be realistic. Don't get your panties in a bunch because you got busted trying to exploit an error.

This is still a moral and ethics argument, which has no place in the rule of law.

Just like I buy hidden-city ticketing about once a month on all sorts of carriers with no qualms whatsoever. It may be immoral, it violates CoC, but nothing in the law says it's illegal.
 
B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 71):
That's irrelevant since it was obviously an error

Doesnt matter if it was an error or not. Tell me why EY had to honor their mistake tickets 2 months ago, and why DL had to honor the F-fare mistake in 2013? If UA gets a free pass on this, what is to stop more airlines to blame any fare which they dont like as mistake?


What UA is doing is in clear violation of DOT-ruling as they cancelled the ticket and want you to rebook at a new fare:


§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.

(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.
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B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting 777stl (Reply 70):
Manipulating the system in a manner it wasn't meant to be used is *fraud*.

Then that is UA's fault for having such possibility open. It is not a fraud to have your billing address set as Denmark, even if you dont reside there. It is not fraudulent to call your credit company and change your billing address to anywhere in Denmark or the world. UA cannot restrict you on doing that, so it is a moot point that people used Denmark as billing country.
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 72):

Just like I buy hidden-city ticketing about once a month on all sorts of carriers with no qualms whatsoever. It may be immoral, it violates CoC, but nothing in the law says it's illegal.

And if the carrier catches you at it and voids your next ticket, you have no leg to stand on in a court of law.

A lot of people seem to be under the delusion that because you spent money with them an airline is obligated to fly you somewhere. In point of fact, they are not. There is language in just about any contract of carriage that basically means all the airline has to do is get you form one point to another at some point OR refund your money, unless you fail to show up, in which case on a lot of tickets they can keep your money. If you paid UA $500 for a ticket from SFO to JFK, you will probably be flying on a UA plane, but UA can, at its discretion, put you on any of its partner carriers, anyone it has an interline agreement with, or on Greyhound, so long as they disclose to you who's carrying your butt across the country prior to you leaving the ticket counter. They can also, for various reasons, refuse to carry you with (or in some cases without) refund.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 73):
A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.

Right there, though, UA didn't agree to sell an F class seat for less than $100. It was an error on the part of a vendor. Had it been United's error, E.G. they loaded the fare incorrectly and it just propagated out, then they'd likely be on the hook for it. But they didn't.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:41 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 75):

And if the carrier catches you at it and voids your next ticket, you have no leg to stand on in a court of law.

I cannot dispute the cancellation, but UA also has no case to prosecute me in the court of law. You're confusing those two concepts here.

The moral high horse is only for people who have never sinned and violated a single contract, promise, agreement, or law. Can you make that claim ?
 
dallasnewark
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:43 pm

Hopefully UA gets taken to court by some of those people that bought the tickets.
It is 100% UA's fault it even happened in the first place. If UA didn't try to save a few bucks (i.e., go cheap) on vendors or software, this issue would never have occurred. It is only fair that by saving on their IT cost, they got the low quality vendor that allowed this to happen in a first place, so they need to pay one way or the other.

As of now, it is a PR nightmare for them, and they deserve it. Instead of honoring it, they are getting even more negative exposure. A scumbag move by a scumbag airline, but have someone expect anything different from them? I guess not.
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 77):

I cannot dispute the cancellation, but UA also has no case to prosecute me in the court of law. You're confusing those two concepts here.

I wasn't meaning that they would. But a lot of people here are claiming that this could get taken to court and United would have to reinstate those tickets. This situation, much like a cancelled ticket for hidden city, would never hold up in court and would probably cost more to fight in court than people would pay for a ticket.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
dallasnewark
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 79):
I wasn't meaning that they would. But a lot of people here are claiming that this could get taken to court and United would have to reinstate those tickets. This situation, much like a cancelled ticket for hidden city, would never hold up in court and would probably cost more to fight in court than people would pay for a ticket.

There is a good chance it will hold up in court. It would be cheaper for UA to honor the tickets than to fight it in courts, they are the ones at fault here, not a consumer.
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B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 76):
Right there, though, UA didn't agree to sell an F class seat for less than $100. It was an error on the part of a vendor.

I went to UNITED.com. I went through one of the channels UA sells tickets. As far as I am concerned I went into a contract with United not their 3rd party vendor. I dont have anything to do with them.


If you buy a TV from Bestbuy and it goes caput after 2hrs, you return with it to Bestbuy (where you bought it from), not to the manufacturer whom in turn would keep sending you to whoever produced the faulty part, who will then blame the machines used to produce that part and so on.


UA cannot just blame their 3rd party vendor. I dont care who made that fault. I bought my ticket from UA.com, was charged fully for it and had it ticketed and confirmed. Both parties agreed to the $100 F-class ticket.

Just because UA found who was at fault doesnt give them right to breach the contract.
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zeke
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting Raventech (Reply 43):

This reminds me of a legal scenario that was told to me where if someone buys a TV from someone that is an insane deal (75 % off) then turns out to be stolen, the buyer could actually be charged with knowingly receiving stolen property because it at that steep of a discount they should have known it was shady (they said that 1/2 off was usually the bar that goes from most likely legitimate into most likely stolen and trying to move fast).

NOTE: I am NOT saying those who bought the fair are criminals. I am saying that the legal system will probably say that they knew it was too good to be true when they booked it and allow United to cancel the tickets and refund the money.

In Europe you have carriers offering ₤1 fares, and on the same flight got people paying hundreds. UA does not have a fixed fare, they have multiple fare buckets that are not disclosed by any public means I am aware of. I would wager most people inside UA would not know the fare buckets available, that comes down to revenue control. If forward bookings are low, they might run some specials.

This is unlike a TV which normally would have a fixed sale price.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
lpdal
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:01 pm

No, your tickets are canceled, so, if you want to book these tickets, you can do so right now.   I just priced LHR-EWR-FLL-EWR-LHR and it's around $7,800. All you have to do is put in your credit card details and mailing address, and you'll be ticketed in a first class suite! Not for $80, add $7,120, but they are still the same flight and same first class suite!

But of course, you must be able to afford a $7,800 ticket to be able to book it (or have sufficient credit, I guess), so that could be a problem for some--but that is what this whole shebang is energized by.

Obviously, the majority of the people could not just slam down $7,800 to United at the drop of a hat, so, when they saw United made an obvious mistake, they acted as if they should be entitled for the $7,800 ticket even though they basically exploited a loophole and lied about their address (you knew what you were doing, don't give me any junk about what your actual address is, and, the majority of exploiters were from the US, so, this point is nonsensical anyhow) to book basically $80 for a first class fare. When United yanked it, they got so mad, but the customers that took advantage of what essentially was an unethical loophole acted as if United GlobalFirst Suites tickets are regularly priced for $80, and United basically told them to kick rocks, as they should, and did, because no one is selling $80 first class tickets, not intentionally, at least. Common sense. PR should never be the driving force in the majority of a corporation's decisions.

So, again, now that the loophole is closed, can't you just buy the $7,800 first class tickets?

-LPDAL

[Edited 2015-02-12 09:05:44]
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 79):

I wasn't meaning that they would. But a lot of people here are claiming that this could get taken to court and United would have to reinstate those tickets. This situation, much like a cancelled ticket for hidden city, would never hold up in court and would probably cost more to fight in court than people would pay for a ticket.

That's OTHER people's opinion about going to court and sue. I never made that stance.

What *can* be done is submit DOT complaints and gamble a small chance (~10-20%) that UA will reinstate instead of dealing with the DOT hassle. No harm here. Worst case scenario UA denies the claim, no feelings hurt.

I certainly have no emotions in the game. If the claim succeeds, I win. If it fails, I didn't lose.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 73):
What UA is doing is in clear violation of DOT-ruling as they cancelled the ticket and want you to rebook at a new fare:


§ 399.88 Prohibition on post-purchase price increase.

(a) It is an unfair and deceptive practice within the meaning of 49 U.S.C. 41712 for any seller of scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, or of a tour (i.e., a combination of air transportation and ground or cruise accommodations), or tour component (e.g., a hotel stay) that includes scheduled air transportation within, to or from the United States, to increase the price of that air transportation, tour or tour component to a consumer, including but not limited to an increase in the price of the seat, an increase in the price for the carriage of passenger baggage, or an increase in an applicable fuel surcharge, after the air transportation has been purchased by the consumer, except in the case of an increase in a government-imposed tax or fee. A purchase is deemed to have occurred when the full amount agreed upon has been paid by the consumer.

I would not say so. What you point out is the situation that the airline would ask for more $ after the fare has been purchased, in order to still use the ticket, and the ticket is, say either non-refundable or refundable with a fee, such that the customer has no alternative besides losing money in any case.
If UA voided these tickets, and gave a FULL REFUND to the customers, how can this be against the rules?
One sells a service for a future date, then cancels it, and the customer gets their money back like nothing happened. What's wrong and against the law there?
Same as if you buy a ticket for a music show and the show is canceled.

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 48):
When I see a very low fare advertised and book X carrier because of it over Y carrier. Does X carrier call me and point out that they have a checked bag fee, and a carry-on fee, and a fee at the airport if I want to check in there, etc? No.

The airline does not call you , but has these fees laid out as variably fine prints after a variable number mouse clicks at the right place. (on major airline's websites, it is usually very explicit when you book). And you agree to the terms of contract before you send out your payment. So, airlines won't call you and will expect you to know, and won't waive you any fee upon check in because you 'did not know'....
When I doubt... go running!
 
s4popo
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 82):
there is no option but to fly UA.

Bing, bing, bing. You finally said something I agree with. At the end of the day, United doesn't care about bad PR. There's no competition and the consumer will continue to take it up the yin-yang.
 
B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 85):
No, your tickets are canceled, so, if you want to book these tickets, you can do so right now.  

Oh okay, so airlines can randomly start cancelling reservations as they see fit?

Assume a flight is fully booked, according to you UA could suddenly void the tickets that a family booked several months ago at a cheap price if they need those seats for passengers willing to pay for more expensive last minute tickets?



You see how that doesnt make any sense. They cannot just go on a cancelling spree as they see fit.
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32andBelow
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:06 pm

Give me a break with "millions lost" These cabins are full up with upgrades on almost every flight
 
lpdal
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:08 pm

No, what I really want to have answered is this: Those seats were put up back for sale, as we know, for normal prices once the loophole was closed. In my example, say you wanted to go to Fort Lauderdale, it's $7,800. If the customers want the seat they originally booked, can't they just pay the $7,800 provided said passengers can afford such an expense?

-LPDAL

[Edited 2015-02-12 09:11:35]
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 87):
One sells a service for a future date, then cancels it, and the customer gets their money back like nothing happened. What's wrong and against the law there?
Same as if you buy a ticket for a music show and the show is canceled.

But are these flights cancelled? No, there will still be a UA900 on June 12 2015, so that is an invalid point.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 87):
If UA voided these tickets, and gave a FULL REFUND to the customers, how can this be against the rules?

Then what stops airlines of abusing that to their favor?

Quoting B747forever (Reply 89):
Assume a flight is fully booked, according to you UA could suddenly void the tickets that a family booked several months ago at a cheap price if they need those seats for passengers willing to pay for more expensive last minute tickets?
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B747forever
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 92):
hose seats were put up back for sale, as we know, for normal prices once the loophole was closed. In my example, say you wanted to go to Fort Lauderdale, it's $7,800.

Doesnt matter what the price is right now ($7,800), what it was a year ago, and what it will be tomorrow. Prices changes all the time.

I bought the fare for $100 at 1:12PM February 11 2015. That is the fare UA agreed to sell the ticket to me for. Doesnt matter if the fare was $1 or $10,000 1:11PM on 2/11/15.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
lpdal
Posts: 1970
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:18 pm

Yes, I acknowledge that. But let's just say for the purposes of discussion that these mistake fares were never loaded to the Danish UA site. Would you still pay the $7,800 for United GlobalFirst Suites to Newark continuing onto Florida if the mistake fares never happened?

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13862
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 95):
Yes, I acknowledge that

Then there is nothing more to discuss.


Why are you so grossly interested in my financial capacity?
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Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1894
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:26 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 95):
Would you still pay the $7,800 for United GlobalFirst Suites to Newark continuing onto Florida if the mistake fares never happened?

Hypothetical are irrelevant. UA sold him a ticket at a given price and now is refusing to honor it. What is to stop them going forward to doing that on any fare they "don't like".

UA price matched PHX-SFO at $90 r/t. A great deal, but these tickets likely could be sold higher at a later date. If this is the precedent that will be set then what is to stop them from cancelling these because some company wants to buy 50 tickets at a higher rate...
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3634
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:26 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 77):
The moral high horse is only for people who have never sinned and violated a single contract, promise, agreement, or law. Can you make that claim ?

No, the high ground belongs to people that are not willfully compromising their moral character on a regular basis. Everyone makes mistakes, but you just admitted to intentionally and repeatedly breaking contracts you enter into. I hope your employer doesn't read airlines are know your alias.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 89):
You see how that doesnt make any sense. They cannot just go on a cancelling spree as they see fit.

You're using a slippery slope argument which is frankly just not applicable.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1970
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:27 pm

Simply, without a fare sale like this, the majority of people could not afford legitimate United GlobalFirst fares EG $7,800, which is the crux of the matter. Anybody who could afford to re-book the tickets on normal fares, IE thousands of dollars, would not need to rely on occasional fare-loading errors to get into first class. They would just put their credit/debit/bank card number in plus their address, confirm their suite assignment, and be done with it.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1894
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:27 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 95):
You're using a slippery slope argument which is frankly just not applicable.

For sure an extreme example in this case, but in legal terms what would stop UA from doing this type of thing in the future if they can get away with it now?
 
lpdal
Posts: 1970
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 91):
UA sold him a ticket at a given price and now is refusing to honor it.

UA already refunded all the Danish mistake tickets, so, as per the contract of carriage, such tickets and their related PNRs are null and no longer exist as far as United is concerned.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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antoniemey
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 85):
I bought the fare for $100 at 1:12PM February 11 2015. That is the fare UA agreed to sell the ticket to me for.

Except that UA did NOT agree to fly you in F for that price, they agreed to fly you for the full fare, which due to someone else's error was incorrectly converted so that in someone else's currency it was the equivalent of $100.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13862
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 92):
UA already refunded all the Danish mistake tickets, so, as per the contract of carriage, such tickets and their related PNRs are null and no longer exist as far as United is concerned.

You really dont seem to get it.


Let me take it down to your level. You sell an hamburger to a customer for $1. You take his $1, and you give him his hamburger. The transaction is completed.


You have another customer behind him who is willing to pay $10 for the same hamburger. However the transaction from the previous customer is completed and agreed upon, right? Could you then just as you see fit go back to your first customer and demand back that hamburger and claim it as a "mistake price"'?



Or if you go ahead and bid on an apartment. You get the winning bid for $100,000, both parties sign the contract, you pay the money and get the key. Then suddenly the seller gets offered $250,000 for the apartment he just agreed to sell. Can he go back to you, rip the contract and demand the key from you?
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B747forever
Posts: 13862
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:43 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 94):
Except that UA did NOT agree to fly you in F for that price, they agreed to fly you for the full fare, which due to someone else's error was incorrectly converted so that in someone else's currency it was the equivalent of $100.

See below:

Quoting B747forever (Reply 75):
I went to UNITED.com. I went through one of the channels UA sells tickets. As far as I am concerned I went into a contract with United not their 3rd party vendor. I dont have anything to do with them.


If you buy a TV from Bestbuy and it goes caput after 2hrs, you return with it to Bestbuy (where you bought it from), not to the manufacturer whom in turn would keep sending you to whoever produced the faulty part, who will then blame the machines used to produce that part and so on.


UA cannot just blame their 3rd party vendor. I dont care who made that fault. I bought my ticket from UA.com, was charged fully for it and had it ticketed and confirmed. Both parties agreed to the $100 F-class ticket.

Just because UA found who was at fault doesnt give them right to breach the contract.

As far as I know, United is not a virtual company. They cannot just pass the blame down to someone else.
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S75752
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 94):
due to someone else's error

I don't think all the ethical or whatever crap is what it comes down to. This right here, it was not UA's mistake. It is not a debate as to whether someone can afford it or not.

Making a point of it being an "advertised fare" is nonsensical since it was purely an error. It would be false advertisement if it was consciously advertised as true, which it was not.

UA realized they f'd up and acted swiftly before the buyers of those tickets could possibly place other plans surrounding those tickets such as hotel purchases etc, and most importantly of all, gave back the money in full that was given to them during the error. There is no case against them to hold in court. Now if they really want to make up for it, maybe they could give out some little free $25 UA credit voucher toward future flights or something in admitting that they f'd up, at the very most.

It can't be compared to raising prices in the future and cancelling tickets to force people to pay the higher price because cancelling and raising would be a completely conscious and likely premeditated decision on an airlines part, and if they were to do that they would probably be punished in court as a gross violation of regulations. Last I checked, there are many distinctions in law between mistake and malice.
 
D L X
Posts: 12719
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:46 pm

Well, moderation deleted my otherwise VERY insightful post   , so here is the meat of it again:

Do you really think you're just playing by the rules by changing your address to a Danish address, and sending the money in by Western Union to obfuscate that?

When have you ever paid for airfare by Western Union?

Quoting 32andBelow:
How bout they just honor the tickets and then make customers for life.

1) It's literally many millions of dollars,
2) It's preventing people from purchasing legitimate F fares and
3) Why would anyone think that people would become customers for life on UA when they live in Europe, and rarely take these kinds of trips?
4) Why would anyone think that people would become customers for life when they only book these trips when they're 1% of their actual price?

Quoting 777stl (Reply 62):
You can rationalize it all you want to, it's still fraud.

  

To the folks that think this was simply the advertised price, why would you think that when the price in every other currency was 100x higher?

Car: $25,000, €22,000, £15,000, 1632 kr

But you don't think that's an error? Every single one of the thousands of people that bought tickets were aware that they were exploiting an error.
 
EI320
Posts: 606
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:00 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:47 pm

UA should have accepted these ticket holders for travel in Y class.

It's a win-win: UA averts a PR nightmare (whilst preventing the expensive F seats from being occupied), and the ticket holders still get an almost free trip. This was the approach EI took a number of years back when they faced a similar situation.
 
Dallas
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:37 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 98):

Well put, the entire thing. Anyone booking it at that price had to realize there was a mistake, and to book it had to circumvent the standard way you'd book a normal ticket. For $75, you knew it was a mistake. For $750, I would think UA would have to bite the bullet and give the seats, as that price looks more normal.

Were the prices off by two digits, or is that conversion still too low? ($75.00 seats were really $7500)

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