Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Dallas
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:37 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:52 pm

The one thing that bugs me is why UA wouldn't honor the prices, which is good PR with those customers who booked the seats and also with the general public, and then file a lawsuit with the 3rd party company? Yes it is an extra lawsuit which would require some time and $$, but I would think the good PR would offset that expense.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5059
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 99):
I don't define United's prices, United defines their prices. I just pay the amount for the services and/products I am requesting from United. I would love to pay $100 or some such for GlobalFirst but the reality is that no one intentionally sells longhaul first class tickets for a Benjamin. The majority of the arguments against United seem to err on the side that since they posted it on their website, they must honor the $100 fare. By the same method of thinking, if they announced the sky was green, legally, United could be sued for misconstruing the sky being green.

But whether or not the end user of United's site has the necessary common sense to deduce that neither GlobalFirst Suites tickets are regularly sold at $100 nor is the sky of any hue close to green is of no concern to me, since, I don't require loopholes like this to essentially steal from United in order to gain access into first class. The only reason someone would rely on these error Danish fares to get into first class is if they could not normally afford it. There is no other reason, if the end user could afford to pay $7,800 then they would just book the ticket and pay no mind to using any such "exploits" because they simply do not need to find loopholes to access the first class cabin on an airplane.

Paying a published web-fare is not an exploit. This is the issue of whoever entered the incorrect information. They made a mistake, not the customer. Don't want to sell tickets for 100 bucks? Then don't list them.
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 96):

Alright, let's transfer this situation to another one. Let's say, for instance, that you run a hotel in Sweden. I arrive, not speaking a bit of the local language, and you don't, hypothetically, speak any English. So, we call in a translator. I have him ask how much it is for a night. You tell him the price, which we'll say comes out to $300. But he messes up the math when he translates it from Swedish currency to US dollars and says that the price is $15. Now, based on the prices of hotels in the US, I know this is really low, but I agree and hand over the money. Would you actually take just $15 for your $300/night room when someone else made the error?
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13861
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 104):
Would you actually take just $15 for your $300/night room when someone else made the error?

No I would not take the money, and stop the transaction. However, UA didnt do that last night. They took my money and handed me my contract (eticket numbers).

That is a huge difference.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
User avatar
TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:57 pm

Karma is a Bitch !

Yes I understand that there is no way they can sell ANY F class ticket for under 100, but in this world of E commerce and a lot of fire sale offers and PR stunts, sometimes is legitimate you get to those incredible deals. I have a friend who has traveled a lot in the most darned exclusive places on earth for pennies, but he uses a few hours every week to scan for super deals on the most exotic locations you could imagine. I myself have benefited from his advice and saved thousands of dollars in great trips.

If UA published those prices and NOBODY supervised-checked-approved, though luck!!! Last time I flew those guys I bought a full fare economy with refund and all the hoopla and it was not very cheap, and to top it off they charged me with all my travel luggage, and to top it off I had to pay cash, since they had no credit card terminals working.. I told them my 4 tickets were not the cheap non refundable, and they just shrugged and say sorry, company policy!!

I think it qualify as robbery to use those tickets for a TATL flight, but UA is no stranger on screwing their customers... If you swim with sharks, expect to be bitten every now and then....

And yes I can pay F, but F is very VERY different than it was 30 years ago!, now its full of non rev, and even deported convicts.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1883
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 104):
Would you actually take just $15 for your $300/night room when someone else made the error?

I have had something similar to this happen at an overseas hotel. To make a long story short we reasonably agreed to come to a middle ground. Something UA could do...
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting EI320 (Reply 100):
UA should have accepted these ticket holders for travel in Y class.

That'd be in an N fare bucket... and it's still being generous.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 105):
That is a huge difference.

The difference is that one is a face-to-face transaction where you see the mistake immediately and the other is an online transaction that can't be seen by a person until it's completed and the cost/revenue ratio is way off on those seats.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
B747forever
Posts: 13861
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 108):
The difference is that one is a face-to-face transaction where you see the mistake immediately and the other is an online transaction that can't be seen by a person until it's completed and the cost/revenue ratio is way off on those seats.

And how is that my fault? Doesnt matter through what channel I bought my ticket. What if I told you I called United and had an agent book my ticket? Would that make a difference to you?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 6):
Anyone with 1/2 a brain cell knows that First Class TATL tickets are no where near £50
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 106):
Yes I understand that there is no way they can sell ANY F class ticket for under 100,

Numerous airlines sell tickets for under $100. I am flying Frontier this month for less than $100 one way.

United Airlines is under contract to provide these services for the price shown on the receipts. The transactions are done. PERIOD!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 15561
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 97):
To the folks that think this was simply the advertised price, why would you think that when the price in every other currency was 100x higher?

Car: $25,000, €22,000, £15,000, 1632 kr

But you don't think that's an error? Every single one of the thousands of people that bought tickets were aware that they were exploiting an error.

Often the base currency is an indication of the website used to book the trip, and the country the journey starts.

Airlines do at time of peak travel in one direction and light loads in the other, offer special fares to earn something on the light loads with fare rules which would make the return trip off peak.

A NYC-LON-NYC can easily be much more expensive than a LON-NYC-LON ticket.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:15 pm

In Florida, as long as a merchant (this includes airlines), refunds the 100% purchase price of rendered goods or services in full, in one lump sum, the consumer has no further recourse with the corporation. Because, for all intents and purposes, nothing happened. If I give a $100 bill to United, and then they subsequently hand the bill back citing an incorrect price listing, nothing happened. I got my money back, and now can book the flight for whatever the correct amount is. I can't speak for any other state, country, or region, but I'd imagine there are similar laws out there.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:23 pm

So far all the discussion has been about people who are resident in the USA discovering and booking these "mistake" fares and in order to do this claiming that they are resident/have their billing address in Denmark.
How does this compare with someone who actually does live in Denmark who comes to the UA Danish website in good faith to book a flight, and is presented with a remarkably low fare. In Europe we're used to airlines quoting really low fares for promotional purposes, maybe there's only one seat at that price, once a month, but it happens.
Does anyone know how Danish consumer protection law would view United's actions?

[Edited 2015-02-12 10:26:06]
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3147
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 113):
In Florida, as long as a merchant (this includes airlines), refunds the 100% purchase price of rendered goods or services in full, in one lump sum, the consumer has no further recourse with the corporation. Because, for all intents and purposes, nothing happened. If I give a $100 bill to United, and then they subsequently hand the bill back citing an incorrect price listing, nothing happened. I got my money back, and now can book the flight for whatever the correct amount is. I can't speak for any other state, country, or region, but I'd imagine there are similar laws out there.

Colby, you can see the slippery slope argument here, can't you? One entity makes a sale, then decides/finds out later on they can get more for it, and refunds the purchase price of the original purchaser and then sells it for more. That is more unethical than anything that's being discussed on this thread. And according to Florida law (or at least your interpretation of it), that's 100% legal and leaves the original purchaser with his/her hands in their pants with no recourse.

It's a VERY small stretch of the imagination to get from the above scenario to the UA scenario being discussed in this thread. At some point, businesses have to be held accountable for their actions, which include being responsible for their vendor selections. I cannot comment on the legality of UA's actions because I don't know the rules well enough, but I can say 100% that your interpretation of Florida's regulations is precisely why consumer protection laws exist. What you're asking for is the ability of any entity anywhere to be able to withdraw from a transaction at any point, even after the transaction is finalized. This benefits anyone who may be able to spend more money on a given good/service, and reams the original purchaser of the good/service. Can you see why you're coming across as a total elitist?

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 108):
What if I told you I called United and had an agent book my ticket? Would that make a difference to you?

I'd say you dealt with a clueless agent, but yes... THEN you would be able to claim that UA owes you the seat, because someone at UA actually looked at the fare, quoted it to you, and booked it for you. At that point, the mistake becomes UA's because it was made or extended by a UA (human) representative.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 109):
I am flying Frontier this month for less than $100 one way.

Frontier doesn't offer First class flights, or transatlantic itineraries.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 109):
United Airlines is under contract to provide these services for the price shown on the receipts. The transactions are done. PERIOD!

Incorrect. They are under contract to...

A: Provide the services listed.
B: provide alternate services that still get you form point a (or acceptable alternate) to point b (or acceptable alternate)

OR

C: refund the fare you paid in full.

They've taken option C.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
ozark1
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 4):
In my view, UA has no choice but to honor the tickets. If they don't...they'll find themselves in the courthouse

My opinion is, ethically it would be the right thing if they honored the tickets. But they are already a huge company with a bad reputation. How would they benefit by honoring them? A little positive publicity for a short time perhaps. But people already have an image of United that is not going to change over something like this. If an airline like Southwest, that already has a good reputation, was in this situation, I am certain they would honor them as I think Delta would as well. They are already looked up with high regard, and this would just be another feather in their caps. United doesn't even have a cap. More like a sweaty head band.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:39 pm

There are common sense clauses and limit scopes that prevent corporations from having to deal with frivolous cases, most of which are brought up in the goal of defrauding a company (fraud is a huge problem here in South Florida).

If booking tickets on non-mistake fares is elitist, so be it. My own observation was more in response to the comments that generally point toward a common notion of this somehow being intentional (though not through United or the vendor), and thus United is required to honor the fares, which it cannot, because, as I said before, once the tickets were refunded, the PNRs and ticket numbers essentially became null, and the seats went back up for sale. So, given that the following conditions are met:

1) The seat in the desired class of service is up for grabs;

2) The end user possesses the necessary cash, credit, or miles to book the seat

then they should have no problem rebooking the same tickets for $7,800 or whatever the price is. But, as said before, only a small amount passengers can afford to drop $7,800 randomly on tickets to Newark from London. Which begged my question of, if these Danish mistake fares never happened, would the people who used this loophole have the same interest in the $7,800 tickets? Due to the fact that those suites were, in fact, available before the mistake fares were loaded by the vendor onto the Danish United website, and, the only reason the thousands of people took any interest in first class fares across the pond was because they dropped over 99% to $85. The people would have no interest in the tickets if they were $8,500, but since they were $85, one could presume that it was an obvious error and assume some sort of risk when purchasing them.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
ben123planes
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:53 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:42 pm

Arguments aside.

If I'd of known about it, I would've 100% gone for it and if they were voided, I wouldn't mind.


If people complain about voiding these tickets, they're basically moaning about something they never had in the first place.

The moral of the story is, someone better tell me a hell of a lot quicker the next time something like this happens.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:11 pm

Agreed, these were booked on a Danish website for tickets originating from the United Kingdom and people had to use fake Danish addres....people.

This is ridiculous. No halfway competent judge would ever let this in his or her courtroom, and, if somehow it miraculously made it in, the case would be thrown out for being frivolous.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 123):
Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 82):
Give me a break with "millions lost" These cabins are full up with upgrades on almost every flight

First of all, that's verifiably false.

  

There are no complimentary upgrades on International premium seats. They can be bought with money or a combination of money and award miles, but never just award miles. The premiere members who have them CAN use a limited number of certificates to STAND BY for an upgrade, but the percentage of INTERNATIONAL premium seats that fly with unpaid upgrades in them is tiny. And you bet your boots, if you put someone in a premium cabin without charging them for it, you'd better be ready to justify it to about 15 levels of management.

On domestic flights upgrades are given out like candy, not international.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
United1
Posts: 4208
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 118):
If an airline like Southwest, that already has a good reputation, was in this situation, I am certain they would honor them as I think Delta would as well. They are already looked up with high regard, and this would just be another feather in their caps.

UA has made mistakes on fares and honored them in the past...it happens to every airline from time to time and it's simply the cost of doing business. The issue this time around I feel is that in order to take advantage of this fare you had to basically misrepresent yourself in order to purchase the ticket....that's not an ethical thing to do and even if it doesn't violate the literal legal terms of the contracts/laws that govern tickets (and I actually think it might) it certainly violates the spirit of the contract/laws.

If this was simply a case of UA loading the wrong fares into the system and anyone was able to purchase them just as you would a normal ticket I am sure that UA would have honored them...just as they have in the past.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 117):
A: Provide the services listed.
B: provide alternate services that still get you form point a (or acceptable alternate) to point b (or acceptable alternate)

OR

C: refund the fare you paid in full.

They've taken option C.

Well stated. Legally, I now agree. However, UA should not make a practice of just cancelling people's rez when UA feels it has not gotten a good enough deal. After all, customers cannot do that. Why makie a booking with UA, they could just cancel it.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:34 pm

The contract of carriage does, in fact, state that you must use the address that you physically live at, and I hardly doubt a bunch of Danes were purchasing UK-originating first class fares using Western Unions...people...

Even if the customer claims "well I can technically use any address" etc etc...If you took United to court over this they could very easily track down the IP address of the computer used to buy the mistake fare, doesn't matter if you don't have any sort of "online footprint" or withheld your real name or used Western Union money orders to pay...Most people do not know how to properly conceal their IP address, and that number alone reveals a ton about who is posting from where.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:37 pm

It's been reported that UA also cancelled legitimate itineraries from Denmark-based customers with Danish billing addresses and Danish credit cards.

Unlike the 4 mile award scenario, the ONLY time the correct airfare displayed is at the e-Ticket ... AFTER the entire purchase process and payment processing. And unlike the 4 mile scenario, there's no award chart to point to as the final arbiter.

At that point, the whole argument becomes if UA *filed* correct fares but displayed incorrectly, should they be liable ? Even if you argue all the crap about switching Danish billing address, what about for those true Danes ?
 
B747forever
Posts: 13861
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:45 pm

Here we go. DOT to give a statment at about 5PM ET

http://twitter.com/GerriWillisFBN/status/565952632989044737
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:47 pm

The problem here isn't United honoring fares. If these fares were on the USA United website, it would be a whole different ballgame, and United would most certainly honor the mistake fares as they've done before. However, this is complicated because it involved an elaborate scheme where people posing as Danish citizens bought mistake tickets departing from the United Kingdom using bogus addresses, which, as stated before, breaks the contract of carriage (no matter what address the end user posted), and, very possibly, United could go after the customers for providing false information, traveling on false information, or using false information with the intent to travel, all of which are very likely to be punitive offenses in possibly many jurisdictions.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1883
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 129):
doubt a bunch of Danes were purchasing UK-originating first class fares using Western Unions...people...

Why not? I originate all the time in LA for international tickets... I live in AZ. Also, my billing address is not where I currently live so does mean I'm defrauding the airlines every time I purchase a ticket.

Quoting lpdal (Reply 129):
Even if the customer claims "well I can technically use any address" etc etc...If you took United to court over this they could very easily track down the IP address of the computer used to buy the mistake fare,

IP address wouldn't tell you anything about where the customer lives or has their billing address.
 
D L X
Posts: 12715
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:52 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 134):
Also, my billing address is not where I currently live so does mean I'm defrauding the airlines every time I purchase a ticket.

The answer is: maybe. Depends on a lot of stuff. But I don't think you can say that your facts are all that similar to the people that purchased these tickets.

Some of them legitimately wanted to fly already. Others pounced when they were alerted by the various social media systems of an arbitrage situation.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:54 pm

As posted before, these people were claiming to live in Denmark, which was false, and a comparison between Denmark and England in relation to Arizona and California makes no sense. AZ and CA are not separate countries.

If one read the earlier threads, there were literally thousands of Americans joking about how they "pulled a good one on United" by posing as Danes.

-LPDAL

[Edited 2015-02-12 11:55:50]
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1883
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 137):
Denmark and England in relation to Arizona and California makes no sense. AZ and CA are not separate countries.

What does it make a difference if they are seperate countries. A Dane could easily be in England at that time whether for work, leisure, or what have you... I've bought tickets originating in Mexico, Canada, China etc... Those are different countries than my billing address.
 
bgm
Posts: 2535
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:37 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 133):
people posing as Danish citizens

There is no law stating that only Danish citizens can purchase a ticket through the Danish version of the United website.

Quoting lpdal (Reply 133):
as stated before, breaks the contract of carriage (no matter what address the end user posted), and, very possibly, United could go after the customers for providing false information, traveling on false information, or using false information with the intent to travel, all of which are very likely to be punitive offenses in possibly many jurisdictions.

Again, which rules are being broken, specifically? You're saying these things without backing them up. Here's the UA contract of carriage to help you out:

http://www.united.com/WEB/format/pdf/Contract_of_Carriage.pdf
 
United1
Posts: 4208
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 139):
Again, which rules are being broken, specifically? You're saying these things without backing them up. Here's the UA contract of carriage to help you out:

"UA reserves the right to cancel bookings and/or reservations which it deems abusive, illogical, fictitious, or which are
booked and/or reserved with no intention of flying without notice to the passenger."

Define abusive....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
yv773p
Posts: 123
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:00 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 137):

As posted before, these people were claiming to live in Denmark, which was false, and a comparison between Denmark and England in relation to Arizona and California makes no sense. AZ and CA are not separate countries.

Not true, you could take easyjet or ryanair to london and continue your flight on UA F. It is not fraud to can use your Spanish CC to buy a ticket from FCO-AMS on AZ.

I'm not commenting on the fare mistake; I'm commenting on your assumption that a Dane cannot start a journey from London.
Even the lazy jellyfish do it!
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1883
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 141):
Define abusive...

They define abusive so that can be whatever they want it to be.
 
D L X
Posts: 12715
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:09 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 139):
Again, which rules are being broken, specifically?

I think you (and others) are focusing on the wrong thing. It may in fact be true that these people broke no laws. Lots of shady things (and this IS shady!!) are not illegal. That may still not entitle them to any rights against United voiding their ticket. In other words, both parties can be fully within the law here: patrons for seeking out an erroneous currency calculation, and United for voiding the tickets.

That the patrons did not break any law is actually kind of irrelevant to whether United can void the ticket.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3147
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:10 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 123):
But it's not a slippery slope situation, unless you are arguing that fixing an error of 1/100th the correct price is substantially the same as fixing an error of 80% of the price. All the people that are suggesting the slippery slope are doing the same thing as saying that people who jaywalk today are likely murderers and rapists tomorrow.

Who said anything about errors? Company A sells Good A to Customer A and Price A. Customer B offers to pay Price B (>Price A) for Good A at a later time (could be 5 minutes, could be 1 day, doesn't matter). According to Colby's interpretation of Florida law, Company A is entitled to take back Good A from Customer A, provided it gives a single lump-sum refund of Price A, and sell it to Customer B at Price B.

That's not how the market works and you're entirely kidding yourself if you think it wouldn't happen. It is Company A's responsibility to make sure Price A reflects the true market value of Good A, not Customers A or B. You can argue whether Customers A and B should do the "right thing" by notifying Company A or otherwise not participating, but you cannot argue that Customers A and B are doing anything illegal. As an American I can go down to the bank (or exchange bureau) and exchange my dollars for Kroner and have a valid means to buy the ticket. There's nothing illegal about buying a ticket in another currency than the one you're a citizen of. And it's not my responsibility to make sure the exchange rate is being calculated correctly (though it's a good idea to know because it could easily go the other way, too).

The issue at hand is that Company A (United) was given Price A by Company B (currency converter). Does that give Company A a right to void transactions that were otherwise made legally? I don't know what the DOT has to say about that. Perhaps we'll find out this afternoon.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
D L X
Posts: 12715
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 145):
Company A sells Good A to Customer A and Price A. Customer B offers to pay Price B (>Price A) for Good A at a later time (could be 5 minutes, could be 1 day, doesn't matter).

Sorry, that's not what happened here. United didn't void the fares because other people said they wanted to pay more.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 145):
You can argue whether Customers A and B should do the "right thing" by notifying Company A or otherwise not participating

That is not my argument.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 145):
but you cannot argue that Customers A and B are doing anything illegal

That is also not my argument.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 145):
As an American I can go down to the bank (or exchange bureau) and exchange my dollars for Kroner and have a valid means to buy the ticket.

And when you do that, you know you are skirting the rules to take advantage of an error. It's really very hard to find anyone in that situation sympathetic.



But the post you were responding to was about the slippery slope argument. But the way I read your response, I don't think you're actually responding to what I said. You said:

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 115):
Colby, you can see the slippery slope argument here, can't you? One entity makes a sale, then decides/finds out later on they can get more for it, and refunds the purchase price of the original purchaser and then sells it for more. That is more unethical than anything that's being discussed on this thread.

That's a straw argument because you are comparing a case of clear error, selling first for 99% off, against a missed opportunity to sell at a higher price.
 
D L X
Posts: 12715
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:44 pm

Also, this is interesting:

It appears that it was not just a United glitch, just that people were more easily able to exploit the United Danish website to get tickets based on the glitch. But perhaps some people were able to receive error fares on other airlines as well.

http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea....e-fare-europe-us-several-airlines/

http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea....-first-class-tickets-issued-today/

This is a screen grab for airfares between London and Sydney, not involving United at all:


That's about $95 for first class, LHR-SYD.

With that data point, faggedaboudit. Y'all ain't getting these tickets back, unfortunately.

[Edited 2015-02-12 12:45:27]
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:52 pm

And, also by the same logic, a person who buys a $370 nonrefundable fare, then refunds it, should get the same amount of money that the guy the previous day got by refunding his $3,300 ticket. Doesn't make any sense.

I'm not going to answer what the difference is between traveling between the United Kingdom and Denmark and California and Arizona. You must provide a valid Danish address for the payment system to authorize your transaction. As has been said before, 99.9% of the Danish addresses provided were fictitious and the customers even posted bragging they were fictitious so that alone clearly voids the contract.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3147
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:04 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 147):
And when you do that, you know you are skirting the rules to take advantage of an error. It's really very hard to find anyone in that situation sympathetic.

I'd disagree with that. It's not skirting anything to take advantage of a favorable exchange rate. People trade currencies all the time. For a long time (maybe to the present), oneworld was selling 5-continent RTW tickets in F for about $6K if bought in South Africa (the same ticket purchased in the US was/is $18K). It's a point-of-sale issue, not a citizen issue, billing address issue, or otherwise. I'm not going to argue that people should be sympathetic (I didn't partake, and even I had, I wouldn't expect sympathy), unless, of course, the other side did something against the "rules" in rectifying their mistake. That's the issue at play here.

Quoting D L X (Reply 147):
That's a straw argument because you are comparing a case of clear error, selling first for 99% off, against a missed opportunity to sell at a higher price.

Hence the slippery slope. I'm not arguing that the situations are similar, I'm arguing that if Colby's interpretation of the law is accurate, the very scenario I presented would be legal, something we can both agree is utter bullshit.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
ben123planes
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:53 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:16 pm

I just saw a report on some website that said that thousands of people bought tickets. If people bought a couple of hundred fluke tickets, United would've let it slide and let them go with it.

Thousands of people paying over $5000 less than they should've done, is losing money in the millions of dollars, something most companies wouldn't be willing to make.


Can someone set up some sort of queue system on this slippery slope everyone is on about, I want a go on it at some point but people keep pushing in.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:21 pm

I don't write Florida statutes, I only follow them.

And yes, in my state, if the business / corporation cannot render the owed products or services they may refund the entire purchase price, including tax, legally. That is the most basic explanation of that particular law, and there are many stipulations and clauses that underly it. But can one imagine what would happen if the business had no way out if in good faith they took a customer's money with a positive intention to render the goods and services, then the business subsequently found out it was unable to render the goods or services due to either negligence or lack of foresight? People would be running left and right defrauding businesses (which they already do to some extent, as evinced by this thread, skiplagged, hidden city ticketing etc). There has to be protection both on the business side and customer side so neither can defraud the other to any sort of major extent.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
D L X
Posts: 12715
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:27 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 152):
I'm not arguing that the situations are similar, I'm arguing that if Colby's interpretation of the law is accurate, the very scenario I presented would be legal, something we can both agree is utter bullshit

Okay. I see what you're saying. I don't necessarily disagree. The slippery slope argument I am pushing back against is not the argument you made.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 152):
It's not skirting anything to take advantage of a favorable exchange rate.

When it's a clear error, it is.

How do you feel about the fact that this error actually showed up on a lot of other airline exchanges too? Apparently, some people (less publicly) may have managed to get $80 first class from LHR-SYD, for example, on Qantas.
 
a380787
Posts: 4573
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 154):
People would be running left and right defrauding businesses (which they already do to some extent, as evinced by this thread, skiplagged, hidden city ticketing etc).

No court has ever ruled that HCT constitutes "fraud", so you cannot use the term "defrauding" for it
 
lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:56 pm

I'm just going to agree to disagree here, since, at this point, the same information is being repeated by both sides, and, like most controversial discussions, this thread appears to be heading nowhere good anytime soon.

I'm in the camp of supporting United's decision of cancelling/refunding these tickets, others are in the opposing camp that this was not unethical, illegal, or breaking the terms of the contract. To each his or her own opinion, that is the beauty of life.  

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3147
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 155):
Okay. I see what you're saying. I don't necessarily disagree. The slippery slope argument I am pushing back against is not the argument you made.

  

Quoting D L X (Reply 155):
When it's a clear error, it is.

How do you feel about the fact that this error actually showed up on a lot of other airline exchanges too? Apparently, some people (less publicly) may have managed to get $80 first class from LHR-SYD, for example, on Qantas.

Ha! I get what you're saying, too. I guess I'm more laissez-faire about being willing to take advantage of companies that are willing to take advantage of me. I see the ethical argument against it (I don't entirely subscribe to that interpretation, but I understand it), but I don't think that has any actual bearing on what was or wasn't done wrong in the sense of rules/policies being broken.

There is nothing wrong with me buying a ticket using Danish kroner under normal circumstances. It may not be the conventional way its done, but there's nothing inherently wrong with me doing so. Contrary to some of the information here, you don't have to be Danish, nor do you have to have a Danish address, to make a purchase through the Danish version of the website. The issue, as I'm understanding you, is the fact that people knew it was an error and chose to exploit it, which is undeniably true.

You can say you wouldn't take advantage of a clear error, and I tip my hat to you. You're a better person than I am. Last year, AA gifted me a free return trip SYD-AUS in F when I made a change to my itinerary. They had to reinstate the miles to set up the new award, but despite the reinstatement, they never pulled out the miles again. It was reissued, I flew it, I knew it, and I didn't say anything. Maybe you would have. Like I said, good for you if you would have!

Unlike some, I have no vendetta against UA. In fact, if people had been able to get tickets on QF, I'd be even more jealous because I fly oneworld!

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
maxamuus
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:49 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:55 am

The ONLY people who have a valid beef against UA are people who reside in Denmark and were making a purchase in good faith.

The thousands of others who ran to take advantage of a error and claimed they lived in Denmark, went into a contract as a liar so you have no right to complain if UA didn't live up to their end of the bargain as you lied entering into the contract.

It is comical how people think they can lie to get a ticket error and then cry the company isn't being truthful. UM HELLO DUMB A$% you bought the ticketing lieing that you lived and are paying in danish currency.

Now watch the nimrods claim they make all their online purchases in Danish currency LOL

[Edited 2015-02-12 17:02:32]
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting lpdal (Reply 154):
And yes, in my state, if the business / corporation cannot render the owed products or services they may refund the entire purchase price, including tax, legally.
my emphasis added

Without getting into whether or not UA should honor the tickets, this quote doesn't even apply to this case. UA can render the services, they are choosing not to. Now if the FAA came along and grounded all UA 787s, one could then say UA cannot render the owed product or service, as they are unable to operate the flight as planned.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
cvg2lga
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:48 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:37 am

This thread has served only to highlight the trouble with the world today: "Screw you, I got mine!".

Tchau

DA-
They don't call em' emergencies anymore. They call em' Patronies.
 
United1
Posts: 4208
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:09 pm

For what its worth the actual experts are waying in and are basically unanimous that UA will not have to reinstate the tickets of people who misrepresented themselves.

“It’s true that DOT rules require airlines to honor a fare once a flight is booked and the passenger is confirmed,” Anita Mosner, an aviation attorney with Holland & Knight firm in Washington, said Thursday. “However, DOT has had a longstanding policy of permitting carriers to cancel bookings when there has been evidence of passengers’ manipulation or misrepresentations during booking, or misstating their status.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...taken-fares-experts-say?cmpid=yhoo
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6009
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:27 pm

Repost, because it was deleted by one of the mods. They do not like "swear words" even if they are censored. Now, the word in question is properly censored using a salted MD5 hash. Nobody knows what word I meant. I hope that's OK now.

Quoting lpdal (Reply 77):
so, when they saw United made an obvious mistake, they acted as if they should be entitled for the $7,800 ticket even though they basically exploited a loophole

What loophole?

I buy a ticket from 75d5bb04c28565a98ce1d9ab7cc98152 professionals, not from a dubious backyard trader with a dark hat, dirty trenchcoat, and impenetrable sunglasses.

In contract law, there are two conflicting lines of thought:
1. You are expected to recognize fraudulent or dubious offers, and not to act on them.
2. You are expected to trust offers, especially those made by experienced, professionally acting people.

I'd clearly go with 2., because otherwise UA would be professionally "bankrupt": They make offers you cannot trust.

And the contractual freedom does not hinder anybody to sell tickets to Mars at $10.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos