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a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 148):
For what its worth the actual experts are waying in and are basically unanimous that UA will not have to reinstate the tickets of people who misrepresented themselves.

“It’s true that DOT rules require airlines to honor a fare once a flight is booked and the passenger is confirmed,” Anita Mosner, an aviation attorney with Holland & Knight firm in Washington, said Thursday. “However, DOT has had a longstanding policy of permitting carriers to cancel bookings when there has been evidence of passengers’ manipulation or misrepresentations during booking, or misstating their status.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...taken-fares-experts-say?cmpid=yhoo

UA also cancelled tickets from actual Danes with Danish billing address and Danish credit cards. For them, absolutely no "manipulation" was used. How do you explain those cases ?
 
United1
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 150):
UA also cancelled tickets from actual Danes with Danish billing address and Danish credit cards. For them, absolutely no "manipulation" was used. How do you explain those cases ?

Sounds like each ticket will need to be evaluated on a case by case basis but if you read through the article there are a couple other attorneys/advocates who say that the DOT probably won't make UA honor the super cheap tickets.

Even Marry Schiavo doesn't believe that the DOT will take any action against UA...
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gullairACK
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 150):
UA also cancelled tickets from actual Danes with Danish billing address and Danish credit cards. For them, absolutely no "manipulation" was used. How do you explain those cases ?

Is this known and brought forward in any media? Remember, UA does not fly to Denmark and I would think the numbers that could potentially hit all that criteria would be small. The "thousands" are really a niche group of people that follow things like this and the networking they have. I was in Denmark at the time and by the time I heard about it (as I was not on Airliners), it was over. If there was such a Danish billing address transaction, I would imagine UA could address that case individually as opposed to the losses created by thousands of people without Danish billing addresses.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:05 pm

I wonder what will happen if nobody buys UA tickets on line because we have the obligation to know "for certain" a price is right or its a mistake (in this case the price is ridiculous but weirder prices have happened before!).

I bet UA would be quite broke in record time, since most of the tickets are bought online, seldomly someone walks to UA offices in middletown USA to buy its tickets.

I remember the AA fiasco on fly for free for your lifetime years ago, it was a costly mistake, and it was a case of just one or 2 pax that did it, but they are not guilty of seeing mistakes of the system and exploiting them.

If I had the chance to buy those tickets I would have passed, because my gut and my integrity, is not to be compromised by cheap tickets across the pond, but I feel no pity for UA, if someone took advantage of them for me its corporate karma.

TRB
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a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting gullairACK (Reply 152):

Is this known and brought forward in any media? Remember, UA does not fly to Denmark and I would think the numbers that could potentially hit all that criteria would be small. The "thousands" are really a niche group of people that follow things like this and the networking they have. I was in Denmark at the time and by the time I heard about it (as I was not on Airliners), it was over. If there was such a Danish billing address transaction, I would imagine UA could address that case individually as opposed to the losses created by thousands of people without Danish billing addresses.

It's self-reported by users at flyertalk, so take it with a grain of salt. But it doesn't surprise me. If people claim 100% of the ticket buyers were US-based then it's most probably false.
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 149):

They gutted the thread for that?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 149):
And the contractual freedom does not hinder anybody to sell tickets to Mars at $10.

Yes, but only if such a carrier INTENDED to sell a ticket to Mars at $10. Standard contract law requires a "meeting of the minds:" I intended to sell it for X, and you intended to buy it for X.

Put it this way: if I'm an airline, and I have a rogue ticket agent decide to sell you a flight to Sydney for $1 in F as a way to stick it to management, do you think the airline would have to honor the fraudulent ticket after I fire the agent?

Quoting a380787 (Reply 150):
UA also cancelled tickets from actual Danes with Danish billing address and Danish credit cards. For them, absolutely no "manipulation" was used. How do you explain those cases ?

Again, I think you're looking at it wrong. Whether the purchasers did something wrong or broke any laws is probably irrelevant to whether United is able to void the tickets. There was no meeting of the minds, as United never intended to sell tickets for that price. (The evidence is that the Danish conversion was messed up for all the airlines on multiple websites and exchanges, and the normal price appeared on literally every other country's currency.)
 
a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 155):
There was no meeting of the minds, as United never intended to sell tickets for that price. (The evidence is that the Danish conversion was messed up for all the airlines on multiple websites and exchanges, and the normal price appeared on literally every other country's currency.)

That's not the issue. If their own vendor screws up currency conversion, they should go after the vendor. UA displayed the DKK fare from start to end, so it is not the consumer's problem if the incorrect number is displayed.

A typical consumer isn't going to read the fare and fare codes UA filed at GDS to corroborate against what's displayed at the website. It ends up going down a slippery slope when you expect the consumer to discern between true sale and mistake(n) fares. That's why the DOT never drew the line in the sand in such a manner.

The only time the correct fare was EVER shown to the customer was in the e-ticket which is after the entire booking/purchasing/payment process. That itself would constitute "raising airfare afterwards".
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 155):
Yes, but only if such a carrier INTENDED to sell a ticket to Mars at $10. Standard contract law requires a "meeting of the minds:" I intended to sell it for X, and you intended to buy it for X.

I understand that. Any contract means "I accept your intentions, and you accept mine." But how do I know a company does not intend to sell the Martian travel at $10 if it is indicated so on a website that looks genuine?

Quoting D L X (Reply 155):
They gutted the thread for that?

Apparently. 


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 156):
UA displayed the DKK fare from start to end, so it is not the consumer's problem if the incorrect number is displayed.

I think we're talking past each other. It does not matter if the consumer did everything right or everything wrong. Even if the consumer very honestly, legitimately thought they were paying the appropriate fare, United may still be able to cancel the ticket because it had never intended to sell the fare for that price.


FWIW, expect a rules change. The DOT has publicly complained about frequent flier sites searching out error fares and broadcasting them. It's not good for the industry.


http://www.regulations.gov/contentSt...osition=attachment&contentType=pdf

Quote:

Finally, the Department is also contemplating revising the post-purchase price provision to better address the issue of “mistaken fares.” As explained above, section 399.88 essentially bans sellers of air transportation from increasing the price of an airline ticket to a consumer who has purchased and paid for the ticket in full. As a result, the Department’s Enforcement Office explained in a guidance document that, under section 399.88, “if a consumer purchases a fare and that consumer receives confirmation (such as a confirmation email and/or the purchase appears on their credit card statement or online account summary) of their purchase, then the seller of air transportation cannot increase the price of that air transportation to that consumer, even when the fare is a ‘mistake.’” Since then, the Enforcement Office has investigated a number of incidents where passengers complained that airlines or ticket agents would not honor tickets that had been paid for in full because the sellers of the air transportation erroneously let them book flights for less than the actual value. The Enforcement Office has become concerned that increasingly mistaken fares are getting posted on frequent-flyer community blogs and travel deal sites, and individuals are purchasing these tickets in bad faith and not on the mistaken belief that a good deal is now available. We solicit comment on how best to address the problem of individual bad actors while still ensuring that airlines and other sellers of air transportation are required to honor mistaken fares that were reasonably relied upon by consumers.


[Edited 2015-02-13 09:15:50]
 
blueflyer
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 156):
UA displayed the DKK fare from start to end, so it is not the consumer's problem if the incorrect number is displayed.

Besides intent, contracts also requires good faith from both parties. Not only did United not intend to enter into a contract on these terms, but a Danish user who bought tickets after finding out about the conversion error from flyertalk isn't acting in good faith either. A Danish resident who intended to fly the route before the error was published might have a case, but even by low-cost carrier standards, this was a ridiculously low fare, and I am not sure that anyone can claim to have acted in good faith, as opposed to taking advantage of an error on the part of United.

Quoting D L X (Reply 158):
FWIW, expect a rules change. The DOT has publicly complained about frequent flier sites searching out error fares and broadcasting them. It's not good for the industry.

I understand what the DOT is trying to do, but it might be a bit dicey. They'll get into the business of defining a mistake and most likely be either too specific or not enough. And what's to stop an airline from offering very low introductory fares on a new route 6 months before the flight only to discover there is huge demand and cancel the fares as a "mistake" to free the seats for higher fares? There will definitively have to be an element of timing involved.

I have to reserve final judgement until I see what proposal they come up with, but my first inclination is to let current rules stand and let airlines jump through hoops to cancel clearly mistaken fares as an incentive to be more careful (yes, this error could have been prevented, United will have to make sure their vendors have controls against extreme fluctuations in place from now on).
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 159):
And what's to stop an airline from offering very low introductory fares on a new route 6 months before the flight only to discover there is huge demand and cancel the fares as a "mistake" to free the seats for higher fares?

Well, did they offer the fare for $1000 USD, 600 GBP, 950 EUR but only 65 DKK?

The way I see this is that this was not even an error fare. It was a clear computer glitch, that notably affected all the airlines.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 159):
There will definitively have to be an element of timing involved.

In your scenario, I'd agree. If the airline waits 6 months to "discover" that it lowballed its prices, yeah, they should be held to their error (because it wasn't ever an error anyway).

But in this case, they voided the ticket within what, 8 hours? Each one of those purchasers could have voided the ticket (even a non-refundable one) on their own during that time, and gotten their money back. So the argument that I've seen some people make, that the airline won't refund them when they erroneously buy a ticket on the wrong date, wouldn't hold here because in the amount of time that United found the mistake, they would have also refunded the consumers' fares for their mistake too.
 
mcg
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 51):
It's a business transaction.

You are exactly right, it's a business transaction. And the contract the covers this transaction says that the airline can cancel the ticket and refund the money. It's a business transaction and United is treating exactly as such.

One might argue that United should choose to honor the tickets in order to build the goodwill that would come from doing so. I don't buy that argument, the goodwill would be very minimal as the folks that bought are unlikely to give United a lifetime of business for doing so. The goodwill wouldn't be worth the cost of honoring the $85 tickets (the real cost of honoring the $85 fare is displacing a customer willing to pay the regular price, it's a lot).
 
a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 159):
Besides intent, contracts also requires good faith from both parties. Not only did United not intend to enter into a contract on these terms, but a Danish user who bought tickets after finding out about the conversion error from flyertalk isn't acting in good faith either. A Danish resident who intended to fly the route before the error was published might have a case, but even by low-cost carrier standards, this was a ridiculously low fare, and I am not sure that anyone can claim to have acted in good faith, as opposed to taking advantage of an error on the part of United.

How is a true Dane visiting UA's site and following standard booking and payment process without hacks like VPN or browser window sessions considered "bad faith" ?

The "good faith" part is debatable for non-EU customers, but for EU ones and especially Danish ones, that's a bit stretching it.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:06 pm

You know? After perusing all 150+ replies in this thread, I am left with two conclusions:
1. I have zero sympathy for United...NONE. You make hundreds of millions nickel and diming customers to death with a crappy product and lousy customer service, this is karma...ethical or not. Congratulations Smisek...you are coming up with brilliant ways to lose customers with bad PR.
2. The high and mighty crowd here will defend the ethics of the airline to death here, but won't bat an eyelash to the fact that US airlines are constantly coming up with new ways to part you from your own money...re: checked and carry-on baggage fees, fuel surcharges, etc. Your hypocrisy is evident...and sickening.
 
yv773p
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:41 pm

What if they just give everyone coach tickets instead? It's a cheap way to taking people where they want to go and they look good in the public's eye.
Even the lazy jellyfish do it!
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 164):
What if they just give everyone coach tickets instead?

The rumor is that it's 17,000 tickets. That's a lot, even if they downgrade everyone to coach. Now, if they put everyone in Economy Minus, maybe a bunch of them won't bother going.
 
zrs70
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 163):
You know? After perusing all 150+ replies in this thread, I am left with two conclusions:
1. I have zero sympathy for United...NONE. You make hundreds of millions nickel and diming customers to death with a crappy product and lousy customer service, this is karma...ethical or not. Congratulations Smisek...you are coming up with brilliant ways to lose customers with bad PR.
2. The high and mighty crowd here will defend the ethics of the airline to death here, but won't bat an eyelash to the fact that US airlines are constantly coming up with new ways to part you from your own money...re: checked and carry-on baggage fees, fuel surcharges, etc. Your hypocrisy is evident...and sickening.

If you can show us the bookkeeping to back up where the hundreds of millions of dollars are, I would appreciate it!

Sure, airlines charge bag fees. But air fares are lower than they used to be. Passengers want low fares. US airlines aren't subsidized by the government. The product, therefore, suffers.

But even if, even if the airlines aren;t ethical, that gives no green light for passengers to be unethical as well.
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
blueflyer
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 162):
How is a true Dane visiting UA's site and following standard booking and payment process without hacks like VPN or browser window sessions considered "bad faith" ?

Because unless the true Dane has lived buried in the snow for the past ten years or never traveled, he/she knows that the price is simply too low. If you show up at a Lexus dealership with the intent to buy a brand new LS and a salesman offers you one for the cost of a Kia Rio, are you going to pretend that you were acting in good faith when the sales manager refuses to release the keys and honor the contract?

Quoting yv773p (Reply 164):
What if they just give everyone coach tickets instead? It's a cheap way to taking people where they want to go and they look good in the public's eye.

And maybe half of the ticketed passengers will prefer a refund!
 
 
a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 167):

Because unless the true Dane has lived buried in the snow for the past ten years or never traveled, he/she knows that the price is simply too low. If you show up at a Lexus dealership with the intent to buy a brand new LS and a salesman offers you one for the cost of a Kia Rio, are you going to pretend that you were acting in good faith when the sales manager refuses to release the keys and honor the contract?

That's the dealer's problem of quoting me the wrong price. Once the dealer signs on the line and the keys are mine, they have no right to ask for more money. It's their job to sell me the goods/services in which they want to sell at. They're failing at their jobs if they sign documents without reviewing (or in UA's case, quoting airfares without cross validating)

And given how most car dealers act in bad faith frequently (their compensation is directly correlated to how much you've overpaid for your car), I have zero qualms about this.
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 168):
Once the dealer signs on the line and the keys are mine,

The goods analogy is not a good one. You haven't purchased goods. At best, you've placed an order for goods to be delivered in the future. Specific performance of the contract on a normal sale of goods occurs "when they hand you the keys." Specific performance of a contract of a purchase order is upon actual delivery of the goods and transfer of title.

An airline ticket is more like a futures contract than a sale of a car.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 168):
That's the dealer's problem of quoting me the wrong price.

It's going to be your problem when the dealer calls you later that day on your backordered car and tells you he cannot honor the price.

I think your argument will be better if you don't focus on whose fault it is. Fault is irrelevant.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 167):
If you show up at a Lexus dealership with the intent to buy a brand new LS and a salesman offers you one for the cost of a Kia Rio

A salesman is a professional. In contract law, he's held to a higher standard than a somebody who wants to buy a single car for himself. An experienced salesman *knows* when the price is wrong - and would never make such an offer. If he does nevertheless... well, bad luck for him as soon as the contract is signed.

Your argument would work if the cleaning lady impersonates a Lexus salesman, and offers that LS for the price of a KIA Rio.

A brother of mine once got a iMac for 60% of the price. The salesman didn't know two things: 1. Customers weren't allowed to combine the two rebates (-10% and -30%) and 2. that the -30% rebate for student just had run out a few days before...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
airzona11
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 164):

You know? After perusing all 150+ replies in this thread, I am left with two conclusions:
1. I have zero sympathy for United...NONE. You make hundreds of millions nickel and diming customers to death with a crappy product and lousy customer service, this is karma...ethical or not. Congratulations Smisek...you are coming up with brilliant ways to lose customers with bad PR.
2. The high and mighty crowd here will defend the ethics of the airline to death here, but won't bat an eyelash to the fact that US airlines are constantly coming up with new ways to part you from your own money...re: checked and carry-on baggage fees, fuel surcharges, etc. Your hypocrisy is evident...and sickening.

This quote I would say is the best summary of the thread. Sure they can offer low prices in the back of the bus "you get what you pay for" but once the unwashed masses get access to first class at prices they can afford the DYKWIA crowd is offended.

To add, those making comparisons to purchasing an airline ticket vs a physical asset without a fixed expiration shelf life, why are you going to such lengths to defend the airline with an apples vs oranges comparison.

United does not have a flawless track record with their eComm, Website, Systems, etc. If they wanted zero exposure to 3rd party websites reselling their tickets, they would go the Southwest route and only sell tickets via United.com

This event certainly won't win them any positive publicity.
 
LJ
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 150):
UA also cancelled tickets from actual Danes with Danish billing address and Danish credit cards. For them, absolutely no "manipulation" was used. How do you explain those cases ?

If Danish consumer law is anything related to consumer law mostly used in Europe (and AFAIK also embedded in EU consumer law, but I can't find that one quickly) than UA wouldn't have to honour the tickets as the person buying the ticket should have known that the price was incorrect and thus not intended by the seller. Note that the law usually says "should know" and thus doesn't carre if the buyer actually knows it. This in order to prevent buyers who claim to be unable to know the value of a specific item (such in this case those who thnk that a Fclass TATL ticket is actually worth USD 75). However, if UA would be advertising these seats as "rock bottom" or "to good to be true" fares, then UA would have an issue, though most European courts would probably agree that changing the F-class fare into a Y-class seat would be enough. As UA didn't advertise these fares as such, UA would be entitled to cancel these toickets without any problem (though they should refund the passengers, which they did).
 
AWACSooner
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 166):
If you can show us the bookkeeping to back up where the hundreds of millions of dollars are, I would appreciate it!

How about all those threads where UA has made off with hundreds of millions in quarterly profits? Oh wait...I forgot...the common retort to all those double threads on this site: USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION!

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 166):
Sure, airlines charge bag fees. But air fares are lower than they used to be. Passengers want low fares. US airlines aren't subsidized by the government. The product, therefore, suffers.

So what's to be said when they implemented these baggage fees and blamed it on the rising price of fuel? Funny how, when the price of fuel plummets, the fees are still there.
 
LJ
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:10 pm

BTW as the people buying the tickets claim to live in Denmark, shouldn't Danish law apply to those tickets instead of US law (as they are Danish resident)? If this would be the case, wouldn't this eliminate any US court case?
 
a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 169):

The goods analogy is not a good one. You haven't purchased goods. At best, you've placed an order for goods to be delivered in the future. Specific performance of the contract on a normal sale of goods occurs "when they hand you the keys." Specific performance of a contract of a purchase order is upon actual delivery of the goods and transfer of title.

i'm not the one who came up with this analogy. I dislike using analogies because there's always something different between scenarios.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 170):
A salesman is a professional.

I can we can stop right now. Car salesmen are "professional" ???

When my folks bought a Toyota 4Runner 18 years ago, we had to hop around and find the "least dishonest" dealer.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 175):
I can we can stop right now. Car salesmen are "professional" ???

They are professionals...

Quoting a380787 (Reply 175):
When my folks bought a Toyota 4Runner 18 years ago, we had to hop around and find the "least dishonest" dealer.

...they try their best at not giving away any money. Demand as much $$$ as the customer is willing to pay. Business 101.


I don't intend to buy a car, but two relatives of mine are car mechanics. I'd take them along when I buy a car - especially a used one - and I'll trust their expertise.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
zrs70
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 173):

How about all those threads where UA has made off with hundreds of millions in quarterly profits?

I'll also ask this...

What's so bad about a business that wants to make money?
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:28 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 177):
What's so bad about a business that wants to make money?

It sounds like the argument is, if you make a lot of money, it's okay that I steal from you, cheat you, or otherwise take advantage of you.
 
a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 178):

It sounds like the argument is, if you make a lot of money, it's okay that I steal from you, cheat you, or otherwise take advantage of you.

Look at all the airline junk fees and ridiculous charges like "YQ" before you make that statement.
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 179):
Look at all the airline junk fees and ridiculous charges like "YQ" before you make that statement.

So... you really are saying that because an airline charges YQ, you get to cheat them? I just want to make sure I understand you correctly that you think it's okay to cheat the airline because you don't like some of their fees.
 
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Schweigend
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:55 pm

Quoting lpdal (Reply 19):
Quote:
We will void the bookings for those who purchased tickets as a result of a third-party currency conversion error.

2/11/15, 6:06PM

Based on the quote LPDAL provided from @United, the tickets were VOIDED.

Unless things have changed radically since I was in the ticket fulfillment dept., United is able to void tickets for which credit card approval codes have been received ONLY if the charges have not yet been put through to the customer's card. IIRC, charges normally go through around midnight every night, after which time a REFUND would be the only option.

So if the charges have not gone through, UA can just VOID the tickets, and no transaction will have happened. UA never accepted the customer's money, and nothing further is due.

For those customers who actually were charged, refunding or honoring the tickets would be the available options.
 
a380787
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Fri Feb 13, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 180):

I didn't say cheat, stop putting words in my mouth. But my stance is clear - tit for tat.

ps you can thank me for the number of times I've pulled HCT on DL
 
777den
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:38 am

about those millions UAL made - in 2014 UAL net income was 1.132 Billion dollars, and they transported 138 million passengers, so on average they make $8.20 per passenger per flight
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 14):
The cheapest thing to do is just honor the tickets. Any damages paid out are probably going to be more than the marginal cost of letting the pax ride over a non-rev!

  

They have already paid more in lawyers fees than what any lost revenue was worth.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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antoniemey
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sat Feb 14, 2015 4:53 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 184):
They have already paid more in lawyers fees than what any lost revenue was worth.

Really? Do you have a source for that? Information about the number of complaints filed? Cases being processed in court? Any evidence at all that they'd have to have their legal team do any more work than they would have done in the past three days anyway?
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
United1
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sat Feb 14, 2015 5:13 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 184):
hey have already paid more in lawyers fees than what any lost revenue was worth.

...UA, and every US airline, has lawyers on staff.....outside of a consultant or two not sure there would be that much in the way of fees to be paid.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Brewfangrb
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sat Feb 14, 2015 6:02 am

Quoting lpdal (Reply 28):
That you cannot afford something is no sort of valid excuse for any unethical behavior even if it is not black and white illegal. I can't go jack a Ferrari from the exotic car dealership down the street from my house, and tell the police officer who stopped me "The person who was writing the price with paint on the windshield ran out of paint when they had written $10, so, while he went inside, I legit thought that the F430 Spyder parked on the lot cost only $10. So I threw a brick through one of the windows, hopped in, and sped off, because legit, Ferrari F430 Spyders are often sold for only ten dollars, therefore I am absolved of Grand Theft charges".

This analogy is ridiculous. No one used violence to purchase the tickets. Besides THAT, you're not even saying the person bought the Ferrari for $10, you're saying they stole it.

Quoting D L X (Reply 135):
Sorry, that's not what happened here. United didn't void the fares because other people said they wanted to pay more.

But under the portion of the CoC that they are relying upon here, they could. They could argue a $169 ORD-LAX fare was illogical or abusive and cancel the tickets. What's to stop them? They aren't INCREASING the fare after purchase. They just are refunding you all your money and according to you and LPDAL, if they refund all your money, they can do whaever they like? Unless of course, you mean only in situations YOU say are those where UA should cancel/void the tickets and refund the fare?

Quoting lpdal (Reply 140):
But can one imagine what would happen if the business had no way out if in good faith they took a customer's money with a positive intention to render the goods and services, then the business subsequently found out it was unable to render the goods or services due to either negligence or lack of foresight?

Again...what? UA isn't "unable to render the goods or services". It just doesn't want to. This entire statement is inapplicable to this situation.

Quoting D L X (Reply 155):
Put it this way: if I'm an airline, and I have a rogue ticket agent decide to sell you a flight to Sydney for $1 in F as a way to stick it to management, do you think the airline would have to honor the fraudulent ticket after I fire the agent?

Yes. The employee is UA's agent and the only time the buyer is out of luck is when the agent does something the buyer knows or should know is outside the agent's authority. The buyer in this case knows the agent has the authority to sell tickets on behalf of UA and while $1 is clearly crazy, strange things with fares happen and there's no way for a buyer to know whether doing so is beyond the agent's authority.

What if the fare was $200? Still ridiculous but not $1. So at what point is the ticket fraudulent and when is it just a good deal? That's why these analogies don't work.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:15 am

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 187):
What if the fare was $200? Still ridiculous but not $1. So at what point is the ticket fraudulent and when is it just a good deal? That's why these analogies don't work.

Very nice summing up from you!

It's indeed very worrying that we have people on this board who state that it is the customer's duty to recognize "fraudulently" low prices, and act in the interest of the company by not purchasing the tickets.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
BWI5OH
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 180):
Quoting a380787 (Reply 179):
Look at all the airline junk fees and ridiculous charges like "YQ" before you make that statement.

So... you really are saying that because an airline charges YQ, you get to cheat them? I just want to make sure I understand you correctly that you think it's okay to cheat the airline because you don't like some of their fees.

I'm not trying to start a political argument, but I'm stating a pure fact. It's the social world we live in right now. Everyone thinks they deserve something for nothing. I think the word is...entitlement.

I've booked a flight just recently in F on United and had no problems paying the price. Why? A) Because I can afford it, B) I enjoy the perks, and C) I'm paying a business for a superior product, to which I expect to pay more.

Am I the most honest person in the world? God no. Have I cheated at one time or another? Yep. Did I know the consequences of my dishonesty? Absolutely. But as I got a little older, and a little wiser, I don't buck the system, or try to find ways to buck the system by changing my address, payment methods, etc.

This is a question of morality, which can not be answered unanimously. For me, I would've known this to be an error in fare and I wouldn't have jumped through a thousand hoops and hurdles to get it. But I don't feel like anyone owes me anything either.

The news is already talking about the lawsuits being filed based on the DOT rules about honoring prices advertised. But have fun in court. Once the Judge hears you've misrepresented yourself in anyway, your case is null and void (that's already been tried and ruled upon by the DOT). United did its part and gave you the $75 you paid.

United doesn't deserve being dragged through the mud on this one. It's the "entitled ones" that need to be bashed.
"It's all fun and games until the cops show up"
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:02 am

According to some high rollers here   Next time I buy online, I will have to call the airline to check if they are really making money on my ticket.

That will make me sleep with no regrets.

I wonder for example the moral validation of buying a ticket from LAX to CAN on China Eastern, for 899 round trip when you know they are hemorrhaging money thus is morally irresponsible to FLY at such prices...just sayin'

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:17 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 190):

According to some high rollers here   Next time I buy online, I will have to call the airline to check if they are really making money on my ticket.

Don't be obtuse. Nobody that bought $75 F class transatlantic tickets honestly believed that United intended that fare.

This is not a slippery slope.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:47 am

Are you right? I bet the first guy who discovered this fare, was legitimately looking for a F ticket, and got one, and then told someone, and all those later "riders of the wave" if you like, were buying it because it was incredibly cheap, in the process they might or might not gave false address and such.

In the end someone screwed up and someone has to pay for it, it happens all the time all over the world, in Airlines, Banking, cell phone companies and a lot of transactions that may or might not be "legal" ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. but hey I am the obtuse one, the next time you have an emergency and you pay thousands for a flight because you bought it right at the counter in a last minute decision, don't cry like a baby because its 2500 for a ticket, when people in the same aircraft (and maybe seated next to you) paid 550.

Don't want to be taken advantage? learn and do your stuff right.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:16 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 192):
Are you right?

I usually am.  
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 192):
In the end someone screwed up and someone has to pay for it

And you're making the possibly erroneous assumption that that someone is the airline. It might be the consumers that tried to take advantage of an obvious mistake.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 192):
but hey I am the obtuse one, the next time you have an emergency and you pay thousands for a flight because you bought it right at the counter in a last minute decision, don't cry like a baby because its 2500 for a ticket, when people in the same aircraft (and maybe seated next to you) paid 550.

I don't think there's a single relevant word in that sentence.
 
D L X
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:31 pm

Update: The DOT has ruled that United is not required to honor these tickets.
http://cms.dot.gov/airconsumer/United-Airlines-Mistaken-Fare-022315

Quote:

Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings Determination
Regarding United Airlines Mistaken Fare


The U.S. Department of Transportation’s Office of Aviation Enforcement and Proceedings
(Enforcement Office) has completed its review of the mistaken fares that appeared on United
Airlines’ (United) Denmark website on February 11, 2015. During the past two weeks,
thousands of consumers who purchased tickets from United’s Denmark website at the mistaken
fare levels have contacted the Enforcement Office asking that United be required to honor those
fares based on the Department’s rule against post-purchase price increases of scheduled air
transportation.

After a careful review of the matter, including the thousands of submissions from consumers and
information from United, the Enforcement Office has decided that it will not take action against
United for not honoring the tickets. The mistaken fares appeared on a website that was not
marketed to consumers in the United States. In order to purchase a ticket, individuals had to go
to United’s Denmark website which had fares listed in Danish Krone throughout the purchasing
process. In addition, only people who identified “Denmark” as their location/country where
billing statements are received when entering billing information at the completion of the
purchase process were able to complete their purchase at the mistaken fare levels. Consistent
with the Office’s treatment of fare advertisements and disclosure of baggage fees, it does not
intend to enforce the rule in question (the post-purchase price increase prohibition) when the fare
offer is not marketed to consumers in the United States. Additionally, the Office is concerned
that to obtain the fare, some purchasers had to manipulate the search process on the website in
order to force the conversion error to Danish Krone by misrepresenting their billing address
country as Denmark when, in fact, Denmark was not their billing address country. This evidence
of bad faith by the large majority of purchasers contributed to the Enforcement Office’s decision.

To ensure that the Office’s determination that United is not required to honor the mistaken fare is
available to all affected consumers expeditiously, the Office is placing this notice on its website
rather than responding separately to each individual who has contacted the Department. The
Office has also agreed that United may choose to post information about its handling of this
incident in a prominent location on its website instead of providing individual responses to
consumers who submitted an inquiry to United or the Department regarding this matter. We
believe that posting of information by the Department and United is the best course of action as
it offers the most effective means of reaching as many consumers as possible at the same time.
 
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TVNWZ
Posts: 2268
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 194):
the Office is concernedthat to obtain the fare, some purchasers had to manipulate the search process on the website inorder to force the conversion error to Danish Krone by misrepresenting their billing addresscountry as Denmark when, in fact, Denmark was not their billing address country. This evidenceof bad faith by the large majority of purchasers contributed to the Enforcement Office’s decision.

Looks like a lot of scamming going on.
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:38 pm

Thanks for the follow up, DLX. I'm more than satisfied by the resolution, but I'm not entirely convinced by the DOT's explanation. I'll be curious to see what happens next time there is a mistake fare accessible to people in the US, and the airline tries to void them.

Consumers operating in bad faith seems to influence their decision, but I'm curious how much of that pertains to the deceit in billing country.

Suffice it to say, when a mistake fare happens again, a new explanation will be needed. This is clearly not the DOT making a blanket ruling about "mistake fares."

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
cloudboy
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:38 pm

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:07 pm

What happens if, hypothetically, someone manages to provide a connection between "mistake airfare glitches" and say, non-cancellable hotel offers, car rentals, or vacation offering?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
D L X
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 196):
Suffice it to say, when a mistake fare happens again, a new explanation will be needed. This is clearly not the DOT making a blanket ruling about "mistake fares."

Well, I think the rule that the travelers were trying to enforce won't be around much longer. It's going to be reworded, and not the way the travelers want, unfortunately. The era of mistake fares may have passed.
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: UA Software Glitch: Tatl For USD 75

Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 192):
In the end someone screwed up and someone has to pay for it, it happens all the time all over the world, in Airlines, Banking, cell phone companies and a lot of transactions that may or might not be "legal" ONE WAY OR THE OTHER. but hey I am the obtuse one,

You are being obtuse. It was clearly a mistake fare and consumers were acting in bad faith to obtain it. This isn't rocket science.

Quoting D L X (Reply 193):
I don't think there's a single relevant word in that sentence.

I'm presuming his specious logic is that it's perfectly ok to screw the airlines because they "screw" us.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 197):
What happens if, hypothetically, someone manages to provide a connection between "mistake airfare glitches" and say, non-cancellable hotel offers, car rentals, or vacation offering?

I'd say that's your own damn fault for making quick reservations as a product of something that you should have known had a better than average chance of being voided.
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