chrisp390
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Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:01 pm

So it looks like things are wrapping up with the hearing for Jetstar Hong Kong. What do you think the verdict will be?

I honestly cannot believe somewhere like Hong Kong that likes to pride itself in being free business, etc has dragged its feet so long on this. I hope Jetstar gets permission to begin service and gives CX some solid competition in price.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:56 pm

With the name Jetstar it is hard to believe it won't be run by Qantas.

Hope they are turned down.
 
travelhound
Posts: 1932
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:41 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 1):
With the name Jetstar it is hard to believe it won't be run by Qantas.

Hope they are turned down.

Why do you want that?

Jetstar are not asking for any favours! Jetstar are not saying we deserve more than anyone else!

If the Jetstar business is not what the flying public of Hong Kong want, than the business will fail. Jetstar and its investors will be liable for its losses and wan't be getting their money back.

...but, if the flying public of Hong Kong do decide they want to fly on Jetstar, than we will have a situation where free market principles act for the better good. The flying public will be happy and the investors will at the very least will not see (all of) their investment dollars disappear.

Why not let market forces decide?
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:51 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Thread starter):
I honestly cannot believe somewhere like Hong Kong that likes to pride itself in being free business, etc has dragged its feet so long on this.

How about Canada sorts out some slots for EK before you worry about Hong Kong's aviation openness.



The original Qantas group application was a fiasco, and since then they have jumped through so many hoops go make it legitimate. It will be approved.


I find their choice of partners to be very interesting... Their chairpersons family business has had numerous run ins with the law - most recently their iconic Hotel Lisboa was raided by police and 96 hookers five hotel staff and a member of the HO family were arrested.

The following video is from after the arrest

http://www.uschina.usc.edu/w_usci/sh...9452&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting travelhound (Reply 2):
Why not let market forces decide?

Within the laws of the nation, something which the original application was not.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
undertheradar
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 1):

I too am interested as to the reason/s why you hope they fail... I hazzard a guess that your first sentence has some sort of bearing on why you made your second 'statement'....I also suggest you do some research as to the 'owners' of jetstar hong kong
 
Kashmon
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:16 am

anyone who thinks CX does not have competition on price has never been to HKG airport...
 
travelhound
Posts: 1932
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:28 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 4):
Within the laws of the nation, something which the original application was not.

Well, yes and no!

In this particular case the laws of the land are based upon an application process, with "process" being the operative word!

Included in the application was an industry consultation "process" which once complete would culminate in a review and determination by the Hong Kong Air Transport Licensing Authority.

If I remember correctly Cathay Pacific objected to the application based upon its "interpretation" of the Hong Kong basic law and Dragon Air objected to the application based upon an argument that the Hong Kong airport did not have the capacity to accommodate "a new carrier".

In both cases we have to remember the arguments presented by the incumbent carriers were arguments only. They were not an absolute representation of the Hong Kong Basic Law or the capability of the Hong Kong airport to accommodate Jetstar.

In this instance it is the responsibility of the Air Transport Licensing Authority to review the objections and Jetstar's responses to the "objections" in light of the laws that control the industry.

To date the Air Transport Licensing Authority has not rejected the Jetstar Hong Kong application. From this fact alone we can deduce (not absolutely) that the application complies with the laws that govern applying for an air operators certificate/permit. What we can't determine is how the industry consultation process will affect the application and if the endeavours by Jetstar Hong Kong to change its ownership structure will appease the basic law concerns raised by Cathay Pacific.

I want to make it very clear there should be no question about Jetstar complying with the law. They have followed proper process. There is absolutely no suggestion Jetstar have acted in any way to frustrate, undermine or bypass the application process.

The application process is currently at a public inquiry stage:

Quote:
“The Air Transport Licensing Authority will hold an inquiry commencing tomorrow (January 23) at 9.30am to consider an application by Jetstar Hong Kong Airways Limited to operate scheduled air services,” the authority said on January 22.


I believe the above to be a proper representation of the facts.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Thread starter):

So it looks like things are wrapping up with the hearing for Jetstar Hong Kong. What do you think the verdict will be?

Too hard to tell IMHO.

Quoting chrisp390 (Thread starter):
gives CX some solid competition in price.

Oh please, HKG carriers already compete with around 120 airlines in HKG, tell me where the is more competition. Definitely not anywhere Jetstar is currently operating. If QF had the competition CX does in HKG in SYD, it would not exist. It exists because of artificial capacity controls, why not let market forces play that out ?

Talking about price competition, what about the Jetstar agreements which prevents it from competing against other airlines that Qantas says ?

Quoting travelhound (Reply 2):
Jetstar are not asking for any favours! Jetstar are not saying we deserve more than anyone else!

Yes they are, the application was made by 100% foreign own entity, which by their own admission to foreign governments, controlled the HKG entity from outside HKG.

They are also asking for traffic rights to over 200 destinations which are not available to the parent, so they use this sham arrangement to do that.

They are also asking the government to be less efficient with its resources, HKG is the largest international freight airport in the world, and one of the most efficient in terms of number of passengers per slot.. Jetstar entering the scene will make the public resources less efficient compared with the current metrics.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 2):
Why not let market forces decide?

The application process is part of the market forces, in marketing terms is it called a barrier to entry. Just like no HKG carrier can start international services out of any of the countries Jetstar operate out of with minority local ownership.

So you are all for market forces when it helps your agenda, but don't see the application process, and the rights within that application process for existing carriers to object, and the government to assess an application as being part of the market forces ?

Your idea of market forces setting up sham companies that majority foreign owned, that will drive their profits out of HKG good for the HKG market, good for the HKG government, and good for the HKG tax payer ?

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 3):
The original Qantas group application was a fiasco, and since then they have jumped through so many hoops go make it legitimate. It will be approved.

Maybe, the biggest embarrassment to their application is the documents Qantas has submitted to the ACCC showing how they control the Jetstar HKG subsidiary. Tell one government one thing, and tell another government another, that goes down very well.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 7):
If I remember correctly Cathay Pacific objected to the application based upon its "interpretation" of the Hong Kong basic law and Dragon Air objected to the application based upon an argument that the Hong Kong airport did not have the capacity to accommodate "a new carrier".

Oh please, EVERY carrier in HKG objected to the Jetstar application, every one.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 7):
In both cases we have to remember the arguments presented by the incumbent carriers were arguments only. They were not an absolute representation of the Hong Kong Basic Law or the capability of the Hong Kong airport to accommodate Jetstar.

What I do remember is posting the actual parts of the Basic law that they did not comply with.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Sydscott
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:53 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
Quoting chrisp390 (Thread starter):
So it looks like things are wrapping up with the hearing for Jetstar Hong Kong. What do you think the verdict will be?
Too hard to tell IMHO.

I don't think it matters what the verdict is. This matter will, more than likely, make it to Court for review no matter the decision.

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
Quoting travelhound (Reply 7):If I remember correctly Cathay Pacific objected to the application based upon its "interpretation" of the Hong Kong basic law and Dragon Air objected to the application based upon an argument that the Hong Kong airport did not have the capacity to accommodate "a new carrier".
Oh please, EVERY carrier in HKG objected to the Jetstar application, every one.

Of course they did. They have a turf to protect and CX especially has used that time extraordinarily well to expand its operations and expand the amount of territory it takes up at HKG. So even if Jetstar Hong Kong is ultimately approved after whatever challenges are mounted it will be virtually impossible to find enough slots at reasonable times to build out a competitive schedule until a new runway is built. Very smart of CX in my opinion.
 
travelhound
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
What I do remember is posting the actual parts of the Basic law that they did not comply with.

...and at the end of the day the interpretation of the law or how the law is applied is one that will be decided by the courts. Cathay Pacific's objection was by no means a representation of the law!

The reality is, once the ATLA finish their enquiry we will know for sure!
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:17 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 9):
I don't think it matters what the verdict is. This matter will, more than likely, make it to Court for review no matter the decision.

And that will be the next lesson, HKG courts take a very dim view of anyone filing false or misleading documents to the government.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 9):
They have a turf to protect and CX especially has used that time extraordinarily well to expand its operations and expand the amount of territory it takes up at HKG.

Actually the rate CX has been expanding is at an all time low, historically the airline has doubled in size every 10 years. No one has been able to get additional night slots since last year pending the outcome of an environmental review.

The way slot allocation works in HKG, new players are granted 50% of any new slots. Both Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong express have been expending at a faster rate than CX.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 9):
So even if Jetstar Hong Kong is ultimately approved after whatever challenges are mounted it will be virtually impossible to find enough slots at reasonable times to build out a competitive schedule until a new runway is built.

It is good to see you agree with the objection submitted by Hong Kong Express. Even with a new runway, one of the biggest constraints is the airspace and weather.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 10):
...and at the end of the day the interpretation of the law or how the law is applied is one that will be decided by the courts. Cathay Pacific's objection was by no means a representation of the law!

The objections submitted were not one page media statements, they were comprehensive legal documents expressing inconsistencies with previous procedural decisions placed on existing carriers.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 10):
The reality is, once the ATLA finish their enquiry we will know for sure!

No you dont, as that still does not give them an AOC.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Carfield
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:06 am

Here we go again!

Anyway, I just hope that the Hong Kong government, which IMHO is quite incompetent these days under the highly politicized and misguided leadership of CY Leung and his miserable executive team, will actually make a decision within a short period of time. I am just sick of this back and forth between CX and Jetstar Hong Kong because the decisions sometimes seem to be purely made based on whether CX will be affected by the launch of Jetstar HK. The real issues are whether HK government finds that Jetstar HK is a Hong Kong airline or not, and how Hong Kong (employment opportunities and travel public) will be positively or negative affected by another Hong Kong based LCC. Of course I don't have high hope for this stupid government to use common business logic especially given how decisions are made in HK these days, the decision will not based on the actual desires of Hong Kong people, but really what a small circle of business elites want, and maybe even what CY Leung wants or does not want. The TV license scandal is a pure example of this incompetent HK political leadership. Maybe we should not use common business sense or logic to discuss this matter anymore. You never know - if China Eastern exerts it political power, Jetstar HK may suddenly get approve within months. Or maybe CY Leung does not like the Shin Tak corp, and decides to turn it down anyway. Sadly it is a political game in Hong Kong now. I somehow wish that the HK government is actually taking some of the debates here and at flyertalk seriously, but let be honest, this does not matter.

Anyway, my only wish is that HK government can just make a quick decision - approve or disapprove it, so everyone can move on. I don't think it is fair for any party to drag out this relatively simple matter into these multiple years ordeal. There will be possible appeals anyway, so let just get this moving. I think this matter should wrap up in 2015, and not drag into 2016!

Carfield
 
blueflyer
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:33 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
They are also asking the government to be less efficient with its resources, HKG is the largest international freight airport in the world, and one of the most efficient in terms of number of passengers per slot.. Jetstar entering the scene will make the public resources less efficient compared with the current metrics.

Of all the reasons one may have to object to Jetstar Hong Kong, this one leaves me totally confused.

If I may rewrite it, is it your position that no airline should be allowed to begin new service unless their planned capacity per slot exceeds the current average? That is a very odd criteria to say the least. If Jetstar were to take slots away from other operators with higher capacity per slot, I might understand, but if they're going to use vacant slots, why does it matter?
All Hail King Donald
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:08 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 12):
I am just sick of this back and forth between CX and Jetstar Hong Kong because the decisions sometimes seem to be purely made based on whether CX will be affected by the launch of Jetstar HK.

No "back and forth" at all going on between CX and Jetstar, nor any of the other local carriers. Do you actually live in HKG ? Or are you like Jetstar and telling the HKG people what they want and need from a foreign country ?

Quoting Carfield (Reply 12):
You never know - if China Eastern exerts it political power, Jetstar HK may suddenly get approve within months.

China Eastern setup its own LCC. What "political power" does China Eastern have in HKG, that must be a new part of the basic law I don't know about.

While you are free to express your opinion, I wish you at least make it factual.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 12):
Sadly it is a political game in Hong Kong now.

No its not, its was sham application, 100% foreign owned and controlled. A few foreign companies thought they could pull the wool over the eyes of government.

Try setting up Jetstar with the same structure in your home country, they would not get approved. Stop telling HKG people about the "political game", when they know full well that the same structure would not get approved in their own jurisdiction. I will remind you of the hoops Virgin had to jump through, and the local carriers wanting a level playing field.

None of the local carriers are against competition, they compete daily with over 100 other airlines, I don't know of an airport in the world with more airlines operating into it than HKG, do you ?

Where are these facts about "no competition" or "consumer benefit" ?

The local carriers just want a level playing field. Jetstar does not want a level playing field, they want special treatment. Tell me an airline that has been previously granted a licence for over 200 destinations in HKG ? Drawing a circle around HKG and listing every airport that is within range is yet another example of a sham application, how are they ever going to be able to serve those destinations, answer, never will.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 12):
Anyway, my only wish is that HK government can just make a quick decision - approve or disapprove it, so everyone can move on.

I dont want a fast or slow decision, I just want a decision that is consistent with past rulings, and the law. Nothing will happen over CNY.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Sydscott
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:35 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
And that will be the next lesson, HKG courts take a very dim view of anyone filing false or misleading documents to the government.

Or they could take a very dim view of a Government and beaurocracy that took so long to make a decision. Either way, a Court hearing further delays things which was my point.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):

Actually the rate CX has been expanding is at an all time low, historically the airline has doubled in size every 10 years. No one has been able to get additional night slots since last year pending the outcome of an environmental review.

The way slot allocation works in HKG, new players are granted 50% of any new slots. Both Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong express have been expending at a faster rate than CX.

Either way the outcome is the same. No slots.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
It is good to see you agree with the objection submitted by Hong Kong Express. Even with a new runway, one of the biggest constraints is the airspace and weather.

And if that's the basis of objection by HK Express, lack of slots, then it's a stupid one. If the airline is allowed to fly then it should be allowed to take whatever slots it can get even if there aren't enough for it to build a competitive schedule. Again posturing by HK Express, a competitor, as you would expect in these sorts of proceedings.

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
Quoting travelhound (Reply 10):The reality is, once the ATLA finish their enquiry we will know for sure!
No you dont, as that still does not give them an AOC.

In case posters haven't read any of the previous threads, allow me to summarise Zeke's position:

1. Jetstar Hong Kong will not fly because it doesn't meet the basic law requirements;
2. The Australian Government should give Hong Kong carriers unrestricted access to Australia.

No amount of arguing will change his position on this and posters should search for the previous discussions which have been had on this issue. Because until Hong Kong actually makes some sort of decision there is nothing new to discuss. The end.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting travelhound (Reply 2):

With the name Jetstar I do not buy that it is a Hong Kong carrier.

Qantas put a puppet in charge.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:57 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 13):
If I may rewrite it, is it your position that no airline should be allowed to begin new service unless their planned capacity per slot exceeds the current average? That is a very odd criteria to say the least. If Jetstar were to take slots away from other operators with higher capacity per slot, I might understand, but if they're going to use vacant slots, why does it matter?

What vacant slots ? what gate space ? what enroute slots ?

There are a total of 5 arrival/departure pairs available in HKG, on Monday 0100-0159 and 1000-1059, Tuesday 1000-1059, Thursday 0600-0659, and Sunday 1100-1159. There are some isolated arrival only, and departure only slots which are useless to any local carrier.

Where should government spend and allocate resources, build a train line that serves 10,000 people, or 200,000 people ? What has the greater benefit for the community ?

Where is the greater benefit for the community, use a slot for more seats to Guam, or more seats to Tokyo ?

How do you think any other big airport close to capacity should act when an unproven player comes along any asked for a licence to operate to 200 destinations (which is probably more than all of the other carriers combined) ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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mariner
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:05 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 14):
The local carriers just want a level playing field.

I'd like a level playing field in Australia, but I don't fancy my chances of getting one.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
travelhound
Posts: 1932
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:09 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 16):

Hello TheKorean,

Every country regulates the operation of corporations and as such I would find it extremely unlikely that Jetstar Hong Kong is simply a puppet for Jetstar/QANTAS in Australia. The directors and the executive of the Jetstar Hong Kong venture are bound by such regulations.

As we all know Jetstar Hong Kong works as a franchise of the Jetstar Group. The franchise agreement would set out the conditions of which the name Jetstar can be used and would include marketing, supply, code shares with other franchises agreements. I'd suggest this franchise agreement would have been submitted with the application.

Just remember these are not schoolboys. There are some very serious people involved with this venture.

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
How do you think any other big airport close to capacity should act when an unproven player comes along any asked for a licence to operate to 200 destinations (which is probably more than all of the other carriers combined) ?

Come on Zeke! You should know more than most that the application would include all of their potential routes so they don't have to re-apply every time they want to fly some where different. This shouldn't be a point of conjecture.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:15 am

Quoting travelhound (Reply 19):

I am just more skeptical about this, seems like Qantas is McDonalding airline industry in Asia.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:20 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 15):
In case posters haven't read any of the previous threads, allow me to summarise Zeke's position:

1. Jetstar Hong Kong will not fly because it doesn't meet the basic law requirements;
2. The Australian Government should give Hong Kong carriers unrestricted access to Australia.

My position is that Australians should have open skies with reciprocal countries before they start sprouting how unfair or unjust HKG is. The structure that Jetstar is using in HKG is not legal in Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Vietnam, or Japan, however somehow it is HKG that is being unjust and unfair ?

If you want fairness and competition, start in your own back yard.

The Australian sense of entitlement does not apply in HKG, Jetstar is not entitled to anything, nor is CX, nor is Hong Kong Airlines etc, we all have to play by the same rules.

If you dont want to play by the same rules, dont play at all.

Quoting travelhound (Reply 19):
As we all know Jetstar Hong Kong works as a franchise of the Jetstar Group. The franchise agreement would set out the conditions of which the name Jetstar can be used and would include marketing, supply, code shares with other franchises agreements. I'd suggest this franchise agreement would have been submitted with the application.

The first the HKG authorities learned that the franchise agreement prevented Jetstar competing or setting prices under that agreement was when CX provided the Qantas ACCC submission. That is the same submission which stated that Qantas controlled Jetstar.

Tell me who ordered the aircraft Jetstar are going to use, are they being supplied by the market, meaning that a local leasing company could compete to supply the equipment, or is it by Qantas ?

Quoting travelhound (Reply 19):
You should know more than most that the application would include all of their potential routes so they don't have to re-apply every time they want to fly some where different.

Why not ? The other locals carriers do ..... Something special about Jetstar they are above having to justify a new route ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
jacobchoi
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:36 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 18):

Then why would you want to drag your problems all the way for HK. Firstly, do you know how disgruntled and annoyed the general HK populace are with disrespectful uncivilised mainland Chinese tourists? I imagine lower prices will bring more of them to defacate on our streets and all sorts of rowdy behaviour? It is absolutely disgusting. Secondly, I always think that having a Jetstar brand cheapens the airport - it doesn't fit into such a marvellous airport (you wouldn't see ryannair tarnishing LHR). Thirdly, I still don't get how QF can be such a hypocrite - trying to establishing something to destroy (which they won't), but at least wound a fellow OW partner. Just because their operating environment is in shambles does not mean that it should pollute their friend's one well. Meanwhile, they were protesting about VA's unfairness and begging for help not so long ago
 
Nouflyer
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:43 am

Quoting travelhound (Reply 19):
As we all know Jetstar Hong Kong works as a franchise of the Jetstar Group. The franchise agreement would set out the conditions of which the name Jetstar can be used and would include marketing, supply, code shares with other franchises agreements. I'd suggest this franchise agreement would have been submitted with the applicati

We have seen the Jetstar franchise model posted on this site before.

The local franchisee is not permitted to determine its own fleet or livery or passenger configuration or pricing model or fare levels or route network - all those decisions are taken in Melbourne.

So it is hardly surprising that the dominant local carrier has argued that this is not a genuinely Hong Kong-based carrier.

But if the original submission had been remotely competently put together we would not still be at this stage. The bottom line is that Jetstar Hong Kong's submission was a masterclass of hubris, with its ridiculously improbable route network and minimal effort to show any genuine local control.

If Cathay Pacific had a dirty tricks department to deliberately write an impossible submission for Jetstar Hong Kong they could not have messed it up anything like as well as Jetstar did.

No wonder China Eastern ended up deciding that they can do it better themselves without Jetstar's "expertise".
 
Carfield
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:52 am

Zeke

I don't care if Jetstar Hong Kong is being established or not... I just want an answer after more than eighteen months of so called investigations and inquiries. What more do you want to know about a proposed setup - you just have to decide if Jetstar Hong kong is going to be controlled by Pansy Ho or Alan Joyce, and can be considered as a Hong Kong airline under the Basic Laws. There are plenty of chances to ask for clarification and additional documentation, which I am sure that has happened behind the scene. Yes this is not a decision that can be made within a week or even within six months, but the proposal has been submitted in June 2013. It should not take that much time after this already belated inquiry. While a decision cannot be made hastily, I don't think the government should take more than two full years to determine a possible start up airline qualified under the Basic Law to be designated as a carrier of Hong Kong. Plus there will be appeals either ways. I just feel that the government has sufficient times to make its decision before June 2015. I dont' think I am asking too much for them to make a final decision about Jetstar Hong Kong.

While I understand your passion on this issue, this does not give you the right to attack me in such a personal way. I just want to kindly remind you that we are mostly aviation enthusiasts and not professional aviation analysts. While you are entitled to your opinions, I am entitled to mine, as well as other people in this forum! You can of course reply to other posts with your knowledge on the issues but the rude tone is totally uncalled for.

Carfield
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:04 am

I agree with the post above. I think the drawn out process is the most frustrating this to follow.

It seems that many things have occurred over the past year and more, with many stakeholders involved in both trying to find a solution but also to make it become so complex that the idea is abandoned.

I guess we will see who wins out soon.
 
Archer
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:38 pm

I'm not sure it is relevant but my wife and I flew JetStar from Sydney to Honolulu last month. The ticket had us
on Qantas TO SYD. The tickets cost $4,000+ round trip.

We flew US from Albany NY to HNL for a bit over $700! Same distance. Full mileage credit.

I flew them to stay in OneWorld for the Preferred Miles.

I am not sure what kind of airlines they are but Qantas gave us only 2,500 miles for the trip. So far JetStar is
saying we did not earn any miles. The fare class says (according to AA charts) the 2,500 is correct for the QF flight.
I believe K or M was the fare class on JetStar. It seems they don't want to give us any miles.

If we were getting no miles I would have flown Hawaiian.

I sent copies of tickets etc. to US and hope their partner will change its mind.
No answer yet.

JetStar is a strange airline but they got us to HNL and on time. No complaints about the service but they don't feed you. Meals are for sale.
 
timtam
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:40 pm

Jetstar HK will be approved.

The deal will already have been done behind closed doors and that is why the public hearing has now occurred.

One of the fundamental weakness in the debate is that CX is ultimately controlled out of London.

No one should be surprised that some in HK are behaving like Japaneses rice farmers. Its simply self interest.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:57 pm

Give me jetstar Hong Kong over hk express anytime. HK needs a proper low cost carrier. Although I wish it was Air Asia rather than Jetstar, at least it will lower fares on other airlines. I'm looking forward to frequent services on city pairs.


Jetstar made a mess of the original approval, and have now had to take in the notorious Ho family to sort it out.. I just hope that Jetstar know what they are letting themselves in for with them.

Quoting timtam (Reply 27):
One of the fundamental weakness in the debate is that CX is ultimately controlled out of London.

CX is run, managed and controlled from Lantau Island, Hong Kong.

Quoting timtam (Reply 27):
No one should be surprised that some in HK are behaving like Japaneses rice farmers.

No need to bring up stereotypes is there skippy?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:58 pm

Quoting travelhound (Reply 19):
As we all know Jetstar Hong Kong works as a franchise of the Jetstar Group. The franchise agreement would set out the conditions of which the name Jetstar can be used and would include marketing, supply, code shares with other franchises agreements. I'd suggest this franchise agreement would have been submitted with the application.

But...

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 23):
The local franchisee is not permitted to determine its own fleet or livery or passenger configuration or pricing model or fare levels or route network - all those decisions are taken in Melbourne.

So it is hardly surprising that the dominant local carrier has argued that this is not a genuinely Hong Kong-based carrier.

Still reckon it's "local"?

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 25):
I agree with the post above. I think the drawn out process is the most frustrating this to follow.

Of course, if Qantas had just submitted a proper, compliant application in the first place rather than the amateur hour effort they made, all of this would likely have been circumvented. So yeah, "the government's fault"  
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:01 pm

Does anyone know QF's investment in this project to date.

Quoting Archer (Reply 26):
The fare class says (according to AA charts) the 2,500 is correct for the QF flight.
I believe K or M was the fare class on JetStar. It seems they don't want to give us any miles.

You rarely get miles on a non alliance codeshare flight except if your own airline has a code on that service.

Quoting Archer (Reply 26):
No complaints about the service but they don't feed you. Meals are for sale.

Just like on flights from the US to Hawaii then?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
timtam
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 28):
CX is run, managed and controlled from Lantau Island, Hong Kong.

I am sure thats what the staff of CX like to believe.

Swire group call the shots out of London. You only have to look at the Chairman of the Board of CX for the real answer.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:27 pm

The matter of 'control' is always hard to pinpoint.

Each shareholder had their own interests at the forefront of decisions, and therefore influence is important to ensure this occurs. The fact that most of those decisions get taken in a boardroom elsewhere prior to being brought to the table is just part of the process.

Jetstar will have influence in this carrier too, as it should be expected to do so. The main point though is how the strategies discussed in Melbourne (JQ HQ) or Mascot (QF HQ) are handled once they get to the boardroom in HK. If it meets the requirements, it's no different than the CX example.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 32):
Jetstar will have influence in this carrier too, as it should be expected to do so. The main point though is how the strategies discussed in Melbourne (JQ HQ) or Mascot (QF HQ) are handled once they get to the boardroom in HK. If it meets the requirements, it's no different than the CX example.

The pricing is set by the analyst team in Melbourne. There really is nothing more to it - that's it. Collins Street, if memory serves.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting Carfield (Reply 24):
I don't care if Jetstar Hong Kong is being established or not... I just want an answer after more than eighteen months of so called investigations and inquiries. What more do you want to know about a proposed setup - you just have to decide if Jetstar Hong kong is going to be controlled by Pansy Ho or Alan Joyce, and can be considered as a Hong Kong airline under the Basic Laws.

The proposal as it currently stands has not been in the system for 18 months, it very well known that Jetstar has tried to morph itself into something else by changing its structure and management. If memory serves, Oasis took over a year to get a licence, and that was a local setup from day 1.

You are not paying for the process, HKG tax payers like me are.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 24):
While I understand your passion on this issue, this does not give you the right to attack me in such a personal way. I just want to kindly remind you that we are mostly aviation enthusiasts and not professional aviation analysts. While you are entitled to your opinions, I am entitled to mine, as well as other people in this forum! You can of course reply to other posts with your knowledge on the issues but the rude tone is totally uncalled for.

There was no personal attack at all in my post. You have taken offence to the way I have destroyed your argument as being hypocritical and a double standard that would not be accepted in your own back yard.

Have a look at your post again, and see how many disparaging remarks made regarding the government of Hong Kong. I see you have declined to answer the question if you actually live in HKG to make those observations.

Quoting timtam (Reply 27):
The deal will already have been done behind closed doors and that is why the public hearing has now occurred.

Any civil servant in Hong Kong would be highly offended at the suggestion that back room deals and corruption is involved in the process.

Quoting timtam (Reply 27):
One of the fundamental weakness in the debate is that CX is ultimately controlled out of London.

CX is a listed company on the HKEX stock code 0293, as an Australian you are free to buy shares in it. If you are rich enough, you can buy the same percentage as Swire Pacific, which is also a listed company on the HKEX, stock code 0019.

If you have legitimate grounds to say that CX "ultimately controlled out of London", please feel free to lodge complaints to the stock exchange and ICAC. They love the headlines from big cases.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 33):
The pricing is set by the analyst team in Melbourne. There really is nothing more to it - that's it. Collins Street, if memory serves.

Who set the terms of the franchise agreement ? Who sets the terms so that QF can charge above market rates for the aircraft so Jetstar makes a loss like it does in Singapore, Vietnam, and Japan ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:45 pm

Quoting timtam (Reply 31):
I am sure thats what the staff of CX like to believe.

Swire group call the shots out of London. You only have to look at the Chairman of the Board of CX for the real answer.

The chairman of the board doesnt run any company - its run by the Chief Executive.

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
You are not paying for the process, HKG tax payers like me are.

So, QF's fiasco of a licence application cost me tax? Is there a licence application fee?


Quoting travelhound (Reply 2):
Why not let market forces decide?
Quoting zeke (Reply 8):
tell me where the is more competition.

On Short haul, Singapore is more competitive, but there you have the strange occurrence of Singapore competing with itself with four brands.

By nature of geographic positioning, In Hong Kong, you have less 'low cost' competition as sector lengths are longer but more medium cost competition and flag carrier competition. Hong Kong to Japan, Malaysia and Taiwan is murderously competitive. The Philippines is competitive but capacity constrained, and Indonesia is at least 4hr 45 away - too long to be profitable for LCC dynamics - although HX's x4 A330 daily service is low yield ITX in all but name.

That leaves China. The china market is skewed towards sponsored carrier routes either from Hong Kong or Shenzhen, but the high yield staying with C or the excellent KA. This is a tough market to break profitably, as for anyone but CX/KA it is reliant on low yield tour groups that fly HX and the Chinese carriers. HO has not managed to break into the LCC market in china successfully - with routes started and dropped with regularity.


Qantas should just buy the bizarrely run Hong Kong Airways and Hong Kong express - and do something real with the airline, rather than it just being a de-facto charter carrier from China to Hong Kong and Bali. They are a carrier that so much could come from if it were not run in a Chinese way.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
pfletch1228
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:50 pm

Word on the street is that Hong Kong Airlines are taking an additional 6 x A320s this year. Where are the slots coming from to use them?
War does not determine who is right. War determines who is left.
 
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zeke
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 35):
So, QF's fiasco of a licence application cost me tax? Is there a licence application fee?

HK $230,500, would not pay the wages of the people involved.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
chrisp390
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:53 pm

Jetstar has made it clear the reasons they see a market in HK with far less LCC penetration than most places in the world. Eventually if they are turned down someone will start an LCC. It could be Air Asia Hong Kong, another Franchaise or a local company. CX will have to deal with it, it won't be able to lodge complaints any time someone with a good business idea appears as a threat to it. Bottom line is having a strong LCC in a city is very greatly beneficial for the economy, allowing greater access to the city it is based in for people around the world to do business. The only people it seems that benefit from having such a venture turned down are a small group of investors and executives at established airlined such as Cathay Pacific. So if Jetstar is so badly run why not let it startup instead of waiting for someone like Tony Fernandes to come in and win over the hearts of the people of Hong Kong and win big there.

[Edited 2015-02-15 11:32:33]
 
RedChili
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
Actually the rate CX has been expanding is at an all time low, historically the airline has doubled in size every 10 years. No one has been able to get additional night slots since last year pending the outcome of an environmental review.

The way slot allocation works in HKG, new players are granted 50% of any new slots. Both Hong Kong Airlines and Hong Kong express have been expending at a faster rate than CX.

Time to get the A380 ...   
Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
 
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mariner
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting jacobchoi (Reply 22):
Then why would you want to drag your problems all the way for HK. Firstly, do you know how disgruntled and annoyed the general HK populace are with disrespectful uncivilised mainland Chinese tourists? I imagine lower prices will bring more of them to defacate on our streets and all sorts of rowdy behaviour? It is absolutely disgusting. Secondly, I always think that having a Jetstar brand cheapens the airport - it doesn't fit into such a marvellous airport (you wouldn't see ryannair tarnishing LHR).

Wow - so much for the free market.

Obviously, the airlines that already bring passengers from mainland China aren't too concerned about the behaviour of those people - or if they are, they're still happy to take their money.

And I don't know about Hong Kong, but where I live we have laws about people defecating in the street.

I'm not in favour of airline (or social) elitism. If Ryanair wants to fly from LHR I cannot think why they should not, and I would be appalled if they were stopped from doing so by people determined to protect the status quo.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
travelhound
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 29):
But...

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 23):
The local franchisee is not permitted to determine its own fleet or livery or passenger configuration or pricing model or fare levels or route network - all those decisions are taken in Melbourne.

So it is hardly surprising that the dominant local carrier has argued that this is not a genuinely Hong Kong-based carrier.

Still reckon it's "local"?

It's a very narrow argument!

This is a franchise agreement! Jetstar Hong Kong has always been a franchise. In real terms you would not expect a franchise agreement to say anything less. The agreement would not only protect Jetstar/QANTAS, but the other Jetstar franchises who all rely on the Jetstar product.

Boeing and Airbus would have similar types of agreements/contracts with the airlines that operate their aircraft. This would not be about Airbus and Boeing wanting to control the airline (per se), but Boeing and Airbus wanting to make sure their aircraft are operated appropriately.

As per my post above, every country regulates the activities of corporations. The directors and executive of Jetstar Hong Kong have fiducial responsibilities. Any franchise agreement would play second fiddle to these responsibilities.

We only have to look at the other Jetstar franchises to see that these airlines, on the whole operate as independent entities. There is no evidence to suggest "Melbourne" exerts operational control of these airlines.

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
Who set the terms of the franchise agreement ? Who sets the terms so that QF can charge above market rates for the aircraft so Jetstar makes a loss like it does in Singapore, Vietnam, and Japan ?

You are talking about "Price Transfer". I am not sure about Hong Kong, but it is a practice discouraged in most parts of the world. In Australia the Australian Tax Office (ATO) has powers to charge taxes on goods/services that have been sold at a rate where profits are transferred to another state.

There is no suggestion QANTAS charge above market rates to the Jetstar franchises and that the Jetstar franchises make losses due to them sourcing aircraft from the QANTAS order book. This is simply conjecture on your part!

[Edited 2015-02-15 12:50:34]
 
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thekorean
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:41 pm

Quoting travelhound (Reply 41):

Franchise like McDonalds, who we all agree it is an American company, no matter where the location is?
 
timtam
Posts: 257
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
Any civil servant in Hong Kong would be highly offended at the suggestion that back room deals and corruption is involved in the process.

Who said anything about corruption? Its called negotiation and its not underhanded. Even the almighty civil servant does not live in a bubble 
Quoting zeke (Reply 34):
If you have legitimate grounds to say that CX "ultimately controlled out of London", please feel free to lodge complaints to the stock exchange and ICAC. They love the headlines from big cases.

You dont make a lot of sense. There is nothing illegal about it.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 35):
The chairman of the board doesnt run any company - its run by the Chief Executive.

On a day to day basis, yes. But all decisions of a material nature are made by the Board and not the CEO. It is the Board that controls the company, not the CEO. The CEO is appointed by the Board.
 
Archer
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:27 pm

Thanks to Best Western
I didn't know what you said about codeshare flights. It was a code share on qantas as QF 283 but not US although I bought it on a Qantas ticket.
Looks like they won't give me any miles.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
If you want fairness and competition, start in your own back yard.

Anyone can come and setup a domestic carrier in Australia. Virgin started off as 100% foreign owned as did Tigerair while Virgin currently is majority owned by foreign airlines. So if you want "fair" you can't get much fairer than that.

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
The Australian sense of entitlement does not apply in HKG, Jetstar is not entitled to anything, nor is CX, nor is Hong Kong Airlines etc, we all have to play by the same rules.

That statement is so ironic its almost funny given Hong Kongs sense of entitlement in being granted more traffic rights while giving up nothing. You've got to wonder why China, Japan, Singapore and Malaysia got such sweet deals on Air Rights while HK didn't.............................

Quoting zeke (Reply 21):
My position is that Australians should have open skies with reciprocal countries before they start sprouting how unfair or unjust HKG is.

Australia does have Open Skies and highly liberal air services agreements with many countries and in fact about 50% of International passengers coming to Australia come from countries with Open Skies Agreements. Given the agreement Australia signed with China a couple of weeks ago which will phase in an additional 7,000 seats per week over the next 2 years along with allowing for increased beyond rights flying, you've got to wonder why it is a deal with HK seems to be so hard. (Or indeed necessary now given the availability of seats coming from China)
 
chrisp390
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:59 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 45):

Given somewhere like Australia allows 100% foreign ownership I find it funny HK tries to say it is so capitalist and free market since clearly it is not.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 46):
Given somewhere like Australia allows 100% foreign ownership I find it funny HK tries to say it is so capitalist and free market since clearly it is not.


Again, coming from Canada where they are totally protective of Air Canada vs emirates.


Hong Kong has trememdous fifth freedom services from all its neighbouring countries. It correctly protects its airline licence agreements.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
chrisp390
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:58 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 47):

I would be interested to see how HK responds as well as Cathay Pacific if Emirates decided to launch 6x daily A380 services to HK. I can't imagine them not putting up a fight over that.

As far as Canada goes, I do not agree with the government decisions. I would rather us be more open like Australia and remove the duopoly AC/WS currently has.
 
jacobchoi
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RE: Jetstar Hong Kong Launch

Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:36 am

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-31483185

Just to show the dissatisfaction held by a majority of the general populace.

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