Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
KPDX
Topic Author
Posts: 2503
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:04 am

PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:47 pm

Filmed this today at La Porte Airport in the Houston area. Friend and I were unloading a Decathalon we had just landed, and this guy comes in with his gear still up. Only after a pilot holding short screamed at him did he realize his gear was up, and he lowered them. Nothing too amazing, but just thought you may find it interesting.

Close shave for sure.  Wow!


.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWkYgxg7_xs&feature=youtu.be
 
User avatar
tb727
Posts: 2268
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:40 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:53 pm

Whoa! Didn't go around! That was kinda gutsy, could have landed with the gear in transit, that's a mess too!
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
User avatar
KPDX
Topic Author
Posts: 2503
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:04 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sat Feb 14, 2015 11:54 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 1):
Whoa! Didn't go around! That was kinda gutsy, could have landed with the gear in transit, that's a mess too!

Exactly. We were pretty surprised that that decision..
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:09 am

Forgets to drop the gear - strike 1
Doesn't do a full go around - just quickly bounces up, drops the gear and lands - strike 2
Don't want to know what strike 3 is gonna be for him.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:35 am

The first mistake was bad enough. The second was clearly a a deliberate deviation. That's actually more unsafe than the first.
 
copter808
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:30 am

Saw a Mooney on low approach once. Shouted something about his gear being "up" over the radio and he added power and put the gear down. I saved him from a very expensive mistake! Increased my pulse rate a bit too!
 
tp1040
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:30 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:34 am

I wouldn't want to ever ride with pilot.
 
flightsimer
Posts: 1095
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:34 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting copter808 (Reply 5):

Did the same just two days ago, though it was not a mooney. Saw it coming in and did not think they were down and when I could finally confirm it, he was passing through about 20-25ft. By the time I was able to make the radio call, he was down to about 15-20ft and then out popped the Gear. Towered airport as well...
Commercial / Airline Pilot
 
AA737-823
Posts: 5524
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:51 am

With some of these morons, you wonder if you'd be doing them a bigger favor by letting them ruin their airplane.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3):
strike one two blah blah

Exactly my point.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:14 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3): strike one two blah blah

Sorry ... but where did I say "blah blah"?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
aviatorcraig
Posts: 573
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:14 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:12 am

Checklist... What's a checklist?  
707 727 Caravelle Comet Concorde Dash-7 DC-9 DC-10 One-Eleven Trident Tristar Tu-134 VC-10 Viscount plus boring stuff!
 
CplKlinger
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:05 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:12 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 9):

Sorry ... but where did I say "blah blah"?

I think they were quoting you and trying to snip for brevity. I don't think there was any offense intended.

[Edited 2015-02-15 03:14:03]
 
bluejuice
Posts: 386
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:55 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:48 am

Could have ended like this.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YffmapFxt0M
Not biased against vacuum flush.
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 12:25 pm

Forgetting to put the gear down is a bit of a brain fart, but I don't think the guy necessarily deserves the criticism for choosing to lower the gear and land rather than going around.

Assuming I had a down and locked indication and enough runway left then I would have done the same. Keep in mind this is a Piper twin, not a 737.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
NBGSkyGod
Posts: 868
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 7:30 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:32 pm

This is why I look at every aircraft I clear to land, from a 172RG on up through a Global Express, at night, if I don't see a landing light, I will also advise them to check their landing gear. It's just a good way to make sure everyone's head is pulled safely out of their ass (for the most part).
Pilots are idiots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
ArmitageShanks
Posts: 3780
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 2:41 pm

There's audio floating around of some controller in training saving an Air India flight from landing gear up. I believe he received an award for his quick actions.
 
Deanger
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:41 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:36 pm

Interesting... Where I was trained, my instructors said (over and over) 'if something starts to go really wrong, just go around...' Now, it isn't like I'm gun-shy to land. And I like a gusty x-wind landing as much as the next guy... But I'm curious if there is a cultural/generational thing... Because I certainly don't feel like going-around is some kind of black eye... Especially in a lower traffic place.

What struck me as risky wasn't deciding to land - but having such a short amount of time between gear being locked and wheels hitting pavement. He might have 4000 more feet of runway - horizontally - but it sure looks like he had less than 3 seconds between gear down and touch down.

But maybe that's just a trick of the video.
 
Q
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 10:29 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:38 pm

Pilots did not forget the gears down but for some reasons in hurry arrive just before touchdown.



www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgvWa-EbbE

[Edited 2015-02-15 07:48:16]
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 5146
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:48 pm

Quoting Q (Reply 17):

stupid computer how do I get clickable link?? It does not work!

You need to manually take the "s" out of the "Https:" part of the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDgvWa-EbbE
The last of the famous international playboys
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting Deanger (Reply 16):
Where I was trained, my instructors said (over and over) 'if something starts to go really wrong, just go around...'

Very wise words, especially for a low hours student or newly licensed pilot.

My old PPL instructor said a similar thing, but he also said that doing so would only ever make me a competent licensed pilot who could function adequately within the comfort zone and limitations of the student pilot environment. If I wanted to become an 'experienced aviator' capable of dealing with whatever the world of aviation threw at me I would have to stop blindly following the advice from books and instructors (which in his opinion is designed to stop the lowest common denominator from killing themselves) and start using my own experience and judgement to decide on the best course of action, only then he maintained could you describe yourself as an aircraft commander worthy of the title.

Quoting Deanger (Reply 16):
What struck me as risky wasn't deciding to land - but having such a short amount of time between gear being locked and wheels hitting pavement. He might have 4000 more feet of runway - horizontally - but it sure looks like he had less than 3 seconds between gear down and touch down.

If the chap in question knew the aircraft well (he could conceivably have owned it for decades and have thousands of hours in it) and was well aware of how long it takes to lock the gear in place then I honestly don't see the problem. It's not as if the landing sneaked up on him or that the aircraft was terribly unstable, he had always been planning to land and just delayed it a few seconds whilst he corrected a configuration issue.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:30 pm

Here is the audio for the gear up air India and a number of other ATC saves.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4654062

tortugamon
 
User avatar
flylku
Posts: 597
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:44 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 1):
Whoa! Didn't go around! That was kinda gutsy

Not gutsy, stupid. No go around? Wow. That is truly unbelievable. The only way I can explain that is he was intoxicated.

Of course my reaction is based on the assumption that what we think we saw is what really happened. None of use were in the cockpit.

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 11):
I think they were quoting you and trying to snip for brevity. I don't think there was any offense intended.

My interpretation too. Strike one, you're out.
...are we there yet?
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 6:48 pm

Wow that guy really put it down quickly after extending his gear. Could he have really verified 3 green then put it down or did he literally flip the lever and say good enough...touchdown?


I'm glad someone posted that FedEx landing because that's one I specifically thought of when I saw this video. Funny thing is I posted that FedEx landing years ago when it was first filmed and all the know it all pilots on this site flamed me saying it looked perfectly normal to them...bullshit.....if your landing gear doors are still retracting over the approach lights or piano keys in a commercial airliner there is nothing normal about that. Either way it sure looked cool though.
 
peterjohns
Posts: 193
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:49 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:25 pm

I remember very well the days of the Berlin Corridors ( If you don´t know what they were- never mind!!)
and the Pan Am 727 Clippers flying to and fro Berlin from MUC and FRA every day multiple times.
There seemed to be a bet going- who would lower his gear latest. I often went out in our ATC School brakes in the late 80´s
and witnessed multiple times, the gear coming down on the 727 over the airport fence!!!
We went out on our lunch brake to observe this.
We thought that very cool in those days- and I guess it was. Today simply is different. I can´t tell which were better ...
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 11):
think they were quoting you and trying to snip for brevity. I don't think there was any offense intended.

Yeah, I kind of figured that. Just don't like having my quotes altered though.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 13):
Forgetting to put the gear down is a bit of a brain fart, but I don't think the guy necessarily deserves the criticism for choosing to lower the gear and land rather than going around.

Assuming I had a down and locked indication and enough runway left then I would have done the same. Keep in mind this is a Piper twin, not a 737.

Aircraft size/type is irrelevant - its all about proper procedures and good airmanship.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 24):
Aircraft size/type is irrelevant - its all about proper procedures and good airmanship.

Why is it irrelevant? And how was what the chap did not good airmanship or proper procedure?
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
copter808
Posts: 1385
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:21 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 21):
Not gutsy, stupid. No go around? Wow. That is truly unbelievable. The only way I can explain that is he was intoxicated.

I think there are FAR more possible explanations than that. There is NOTHING to indicate intoxication other than failing to lower the gear.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 25):
Why is it irrelevant? And how was what the chap did not good airmanship or proper procedure?

The aircraft was not properly set up for landing ... what does one learn from day one in flight school in that situation?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 27):
The aircraft was not properly set up for landing

The aircraft WAS properly set up for landing when it landed, we know this because there was no fireball, bent metal or arterial blood.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 27):
what does one learn from day one in flight school in that situation?

To configure it properly before landing, which the pilot did.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 28):
The aircraft WAS properly set up for landing when it landed, we know this because there was no fireball, bent metal or arterial blood.

Not this time.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 28):
To configure it properly before landing, which the pilot did.

No he did not.

And the correct answer to the question is to go around and re-configure. Bouncing up into the air for a few seconds to quickly throw the gear lever down and set it on the runway is not configuring the aircraft for landing.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
javierglez
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:38 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:46 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 27):
what does one learn from day one in flight school in that situation

At this stage of the descent he may have had to make use of the ground effect to gain speed before moving up ... Easier to make a small bump if you know better ... How many small aircraft have fallen down while doing a go around ... After all it's a piper not a jet fighter ...
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:47 pm

I hope he filled out his NASA form.
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 8:49 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
Not this time.

It was, you can see that in the video. You seem to be confusing the final approach phase with the landing manoeuvre.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
No he did not.

Again, he did. It is quite obvious that when the aircraft touches down the wheels are down and locked. There is no possible way you can argue that.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
And the correct answer to the question is to go around and re-configure.

That may be true for you, but I hope you are aware that there are more pilots in the world than you and quite a lot of them were taught differently to how you were. Myself included.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
Bouncing up into the air for a few seconds to quickly throw the gear lever down and set it on the runway is not configuring the aircraft for landing.

I'm not sure what video you watched, but there is no bouncing happening in that video.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 32):
It was, you can see that in the video. You seem to be confusing the final approach phase with the landing manoeuvre.

No confusion. Had he been 200 feet up and half a mile out that's one thing, but being right over the runway just before touchdown and then quickly scrambling to correct your mistake is an accident waiting to happen.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 32):
Again, he did. It is quite obvious that when the aircraft touches down the wheels are down and locked. There is no possible way you can argue that.

I'm not arguing that ... what I am arguing is the manner it was achieved.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 32):
That may be true for you, but I hope you are aware that there are more pilots in the world than you and quite a lot of them were taught differently to how you were. Myself included.

Your instructor taught you to not worry about going around, bounce back up in the air, throw the lever down and pretend nothing happened? Did you do that on your check ride as well? What did they have to say about that?

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 32):
I'm not sure what video you watched, but there is no bouncing happening in that video.

0:06
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting javierglez (Reply 30):
At this stage of the descent he may have had to make use of the ground effect to gain speed before moving up

There's nothing wrong with that.

Quoting javierglez (Reply 30):
Easier to make a small bump if you know better

That's the problem and my point "its easier" ... just because something is "easier" doesn't make it smarter never mind the correct way. There is a reason we have procedures in the cockpit.

Quoting javierglez (Reply 30):
How many small aircraft have fallen down while doing a go around

It only takes one.

Quoting javierglez (Reply 30):
After all it's a piper not a jet fighter

Again, irrelevant. If you have miles of runway left, at least go to a safe altitude and dump the gear, don't do it just a few meters of the ground ... that's just plain stupid.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
gordonsmall
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2001 1:52 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 33):
quickly scrambling to correct your mistake is an accident waiting to happen.

How do you know what was going on inside the aircraft? I see it as someone who made an error, and upon evaluating the situation decided there was sufficient time to correct the error and still achieve the desired result without undue risk.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 33):
Your instructor taught you to not worry about going around, bounce back up in the air, throw the lever down and pretend nothing happened?

My PPL was done in a fixed gear aircraft, so I can't say the specific issue was ever discussed. We did however discuss at length the decision making process around go-arounds and we concluded that where a safe landing could still be achieved it was always preferable to complete the landing. When I did my CPL it was in a piston twin with retractable gear, but again the conclusion was that completing the landing if safe to do so was a logical course of action.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 33):
Did you do that on your check ride as well?

We don't do checkrides, we do skills tests. We don't examine that particular scenario on either the PPL, CPL or ATPL skills tests so I can't say that I did. I did have to go-around on very short finals during a type rating skills test, but that was because of a (simulated) loss of visual contact with the ground, so no real comparison.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 33):
What did they have to say about that?

I have passed all my skills tests on the first attempt.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 33):
0:06

I don't see any bouncing. A bounce would involve contact with something and a resulting change in trajectory as a result of external forces.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
AIRWALK
Posts: 241
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:33 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:50 pm

On final the aircraft should be fully configured for landing with landing checklists complete. If the approach is incomplete or unstable go around. Forgetting to lower the gear is an excusable mistake. It's what comes after that's important.

The aircraft was already in the hold off period decaying airspeed. The artificial balloon that the pilot did to lower the landing gear would have added to the loss of airspeed. Naturally you would pull back to gain height or delay touchdown to give you the extra seconds for the undercarriage to lower. The problem with this however is the aircraft would be at real risk of stalling and dropping like a stone leading to damage and possible injury. All which could be avoided with a go around.

Much easier to apply full power and go around than to apply a small amount of unknown power to prolong the hold off.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 19):
competent licensed pilot who could function adequately within the comfort zone and limitations of the student pilot environment. If I wanted to become an 'experienced aviator' capable of dealing with whatever the world of aviation threw at me I would have to stop blindly following the advice from books and instructors

There's a difference. Nothing in this situation was being 'thrown' at the pilot. He made a simple mistake. A good pilot should know when it matters and when it does not. Going around won't cause any harm while what he did could have. If it is a situation where neither options are ideal, that's when the decision counts

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 19):
If the chap in question knew the aircraft well (he could conceivably have owned it for decades and have thousands of hours in it) and was well aware of how long it takes to lock the gear in place then I honestly don't see the problem

There is a problem with this. What if he had a landing gear failure or other associated issues after lowering it? If he lowered it on approach he would have time to troubleshoot. In this scenario he just had to hope that everything would work out well. He would be too slow and too committed to the landing to do anything about it. That is not good airmanship. That is the whole point of identifying landing checklist complete and approach stable. After that stage you as a pilot have done everything you had to. Anything that comes up is out of your control and would have happened anyway.

[Edited 2015-02-15 13:51:34]
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1411
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:01 pm

G=gas
U=underwear
M=mixture
P=props

Got that?
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6052
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 10):
Checklist... What's a checklist?

Something that brings you luck if carried on board. Like a horseshoe, or a hare's foot.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
26point2
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):

Are you for real or are you a troll? Some of your remarks are quite amusing. Keep up the good work.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:59 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):
How do you know what was going on inside the aircraft? I see it as someone who made an error, and upon evaluating the situation decided there was sufficient time to correct the error and still achieve the desired result without undue risk.

Without undue risk? You can't be serious.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):

My PPL was done in a fixed gear aircraft, so I can't say the specific issue was ever discussed. We did however discuss at length the decision making process around go-arounds and we concluded that where a safe landing could still be achieved it was always preferable to complete the landing. When I did my CPL it was in a piston twin with retractable gear, but again the conclusion was that completing the landing if safe to do so was a logical course of action.

My MEL was done in retractable gear aircraft. And landing gear scenarios were discussed at great lengths.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):
We don't do checkrides, we do skills tests. We don't examine that particular scenario on either the PPL, CPL or ATPL skills tests so I can't say that I did. I did have to go-around on very short finals during a type rating skills test, but that was because of a (simulated) loss of visual contact with the ground, so no real comparison.

And what would your skill test examiner have said if you had tried that?

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):
I have passed all my skills tests on the first attempt.

As have most people.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):
I don't see any bouncing. A bounce would involve contact with something and a resulting change in trajectory as a result of external forces.

Oh good grief. Fine, "leaped", "ascended", "humped", "ballooned".

[Edited 2015-02-15 16:00:01]
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:01 am

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 36):
Forgetting to lower the gear is an excusable mistake. It's what comes after that's important.
Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 36):
Going around won't cause any harm while what he did could have. If it is a situation where neither options are ideal, that's when the decision counts

Absolutely.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1390
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:10 am

Wow, remind me to never fly with this "Gordon" dude above. You sound clueless man.
 
User avatar
longhauler
Posts: 6488
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:00 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:57 am

It isn't the first time a pilot has "forgotten" to extend the gear, and certainly wont be the last. That is why gear warning systems are installed from the C172RG right up to the A380. But ...

If you have "forgotten" to extend the gear, it would be like activating the take-off warning horn early in a take-off run and quickly fixing the problem. My first thought would not be the "forgotten" item, but "what else?". Namely if you forgot to extend the gear on landing, or forgot to extend the flaps on take-off, sometimes it's best to review everything else and see what else you forgot.

In my opinion, (and just my opinion), it would have been better to go around and check everything else, just like it would be better to exit the runway on activating the take-off warning system. Go over everything else you were supposed to accomplish, as clearly, your mind was not where it should have been.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 43):
In my opinion, (and just my opinion), it would have been better to go around and check everything else, just like it would be better to exit the runway on activating the take-off warning system. Go over everything else you were supposed to accomplish, as clearly, your mind was not where it should have been.

I share your opinion 100%
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:06 am

The gear wasn't even fully down when he started sinking again.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
benjjk
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:29 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:10 am

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 19):
and start using my own experience and judgement to decide on the best course of action, only then he maintained could you describe yourself as an aircraft commander worthy of the title.

Mmm, sounds to me like "only when you throw away the lessons learned by others and make your own rash decisions could you describe yourself as an aircraft commander....". I agree that in the real world things won't present themselves as neatly as they do in training and therefore it's the aircraft commander who needs to draw on experience and made a sound decision. But I initially interpreted your instructors words to mean to be more conservative than the manuals because things aren't always so easy.

To help explain what I mean - on a VFR training flight in cruise the instructor will say "we've just been told that the airport is closed due to bad weather so show me a diversion". But in reality you could be in cruise with the destination airport currently 4/8 cloud but the revised forecast unexpectedly says worsening to 7/8 30 mins after your ETA. Do you press on? You'd be entitled to. Or do you use your experience to consider your low fuel state, and that the mountain ranges around the airport are not covered by the TAF and happen to be hidden in the clouds..

Back to this specific incident - I wonder if this pilot had his time again he would have gone around. The sudden drag at the low level would make me quite uncomfortable.

I think pilots are better off with the mindset of telling the plane "convince me that you are safe to takeoff/land". That way at the first sight of something untoward they abort the action (in theory at least).
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:36 pm

I'll bet there are at least 20 incidents a year involving landing with gear inadvertently retracted.in the Transport Canada daily occurrence reports. Must be hundreds worldwide.

A few examples within the past two years (the first one at YCD less than a month ago):

A privately-registered Cessna 177RG, on a local flight from Nanaimo, BC (CYCD), was conducting circuits on Runway 16 at CYCD. At 0014Z, the aircraft landed gear up. Airport Aircraft Rescue and Fire Fighting (ARFF) responded. Aircraft was removed from runway at 0121Z. Runway re-opened after Foreign Object Debris (FOD) check at 0127Z. Operational impact: Jazz (JZA8268) and Omega Air (C-GGQF) departures were delayed by 1+15 hrs. WestJet Encore (WEN3225) departure from Calgary, AB (CYYC) delayed by unknown time.

A privately operated Cessna 177RG (C-GYVH) travelled from Calgary/ Springbank, AB (CYBW) to Invermere, BC (CAA8) and unintentionally landed with the wheels retracted. The aircraft remained on the runway. There was no fire and the pilot (alone on board) was not injured. The pilot alerted the Kamloops flight information centre (FIC) of the event and a NOTAM was issued to close the runway. Aside from the lack of gear down indicator lights, when the engine power was reduced the pilot was not alerted by the landing gear position warning system as it had been inoperative for some time. This aircraft has been involved in 2 previous occurrences, both related to the landing gear; A08P0038 and A14W0082.

The privately owned Mooney 20F was performing circuits at the Smiths Falls, ON airport (CYSH). During final approach, the landing gear was not lowered and the aircraft impacted the runway with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft slid to a stop on the runway and received substantial damage to the propeller, flaps and underside of fuselage. The pilot exited the aircraft with no injuries. There was no fire or fuel leakage.

The privately owned Navion aircraft after a local flight touched down on the runway at Hanover, ON (CYHS) with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft slid to a stop on the runway with substantial damage to the underside of the airframe and propeller. The pilot was not injured. The landing gear was not extended during the approach and the aircraft is not equipped with a gear warning system.

A private Piper PA-28R-180, was doing a touch & go landing on runway 16 at Kelowna, BC (CYLW). The gear was unintentionally left retracted and the propeller contacted the runway. Power was applied the aircraft flew a circuit and landed with the gear extended on runway 16. Two inches of propeller blade was missing from each tip upon shutdown.

A Piper PA-24-250 aircraft was returning from a local flight from Kincardine, ON (CKS9) when the pilot unintentionally landed with the gear retracted. The aircraft skidded to a stop on the grass strip. There was damage to the propeller, engine, belly structure and skins. There were no injuries.

The Pezetel SZD-55-1 glider was on a local flight from Pendleton, ON (CNF3) and landed with the mono wheel landing gear in the retracted position. The glider received damage to the underside of the airframe and the tail section. The pilot was not injured.

A privately registered Mooney M20K from Oshawa, ON (CYOO) to Sudbury, ON (CYSB) landed on runway 04 with landing gear retracted. Airport Rescue and Fire Fighting (ARFF) responded and advised there were no injuries. Minimal impact to operations. 1 aircraft was redirected to another runway for departure.

The privately-operated TFM Aviation Inc. Mooney M-20K aircraft (C-FSAB) was concluding a VFR flight from Lachute, QC (CSE4) to Ottawa (Rockcliffe), ON (CYRO). Rockcliffe Flying Club staff reported that the aircraft was landed with the landing gear retracted. Four persons on board. No reported injuries. Damage -- unknown. Ops. impact -- unknown. The airport was closed until 2223Z.

The Cessna 337 aircraft, registration C-FVAS was inbound for runway 06 at Stony Rapids, SK (CYSF). The aircraft subsequently landed on the runway with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft came to rest on the runway and the crew evacuated the aircraft without injury. The aircraft sustained damage to its belly and front propeller. It was reported that there were no mechanical anomalies with the aircraft and that the landing gear was not extended prior to landing.

A Mooney M20S aircraft, touched down with its landing gear unintentionally retracted on runway 22 at Swift Current, SK (CYYN). The aircraft slid along the runway incurring damage to the underbelly, lower cowling, flaps and propeller. There were no injuries to the two occupants. The runway was NOTAMed closed while the aircraft was lifted and removed from the runway.
 
User avatar
litz
Posts: 2381
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 6:01 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:46 pm

do the smaller airplanes have gear configuration warning systems like the larger airliners?
 
A332DTW
Posts: 921
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:54 am

RE: PA-30 Nearly Makes Gear Up Landing (Pilot Error)

Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:49 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 48):
do the smaller airplanes have gear configuration warning systems like the larger airliners?

I don't know about the PA-30, but the PA-44 has one. There's a nice "John Wayne" type of voice for gear down configuration, and an urgent female voice for gear up.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos