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compensateme
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DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:37 pm

With the reduction in 50-seat jets, CVG will be experiencing its most significant cuts in service in several years this upcoming summer. Very few of the 50-seat cuts were offset by upgauging other flights; in addition, mainline reductions are also occurring.

Highlights (comparing summer 2014 to summer 2015):
JAX, MSY discontinued
MCO reduced to 1xM88 from 2xM88
RSW reduced to Saturday-only
seasonal SAN not resuming
ORD going from 6xCRJ to 1xCRJ, 5xCR9
DTW getting mainline (320)

peak-day departures, Summer 2014:
105 (including 21 mainline); approximately 8,200 seats

peak-day departures, Summer 2015
87 (including 19 mainline); approximately 7,200 seats

So about a 17% reduction in flights and 12% in pure capacity.
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Alitalia744
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:45 pm

Isn't EWR and BDL seeing some up-gauged flights to 717?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
a380787
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:50 pm

Queue the choir who still insists CVG is a self-sustaining high yield reliever hub
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:51 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
Isn't EWR and BDL seeing some up-gauged flights to 717?

No.

The 717 operates a total of two flights on each route in April. More-or-less a "one time" thing.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
airxliban
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:07 pm

Any idea if the MEM flight will survive?
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dc10lover
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:18 pm

And because the economy is getting worse the shrinkage continues. Not just CVG but other places as well.
Why endure the nightmare and congestion of LAX when BUR, LGB, ONT & SNA is so much easier to fly in and out of. Same with OAK & SJC when it comes to SFO.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 2):

Queue the choir who still insists CVG is a self-sustaining high yield reliever hub

Or the opposite. Didn't they make some sort of service commitment related to the terminal deal? Is it over?

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 5):
And because the economy is getting worse the shrinkage continues

Yes, Delta only made $4.5 billion in profits last year, clearly something had to change improve performance. LOL
 
sxf24
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:30 pm

The economy is not getting worse and Delta is not shrinking (actually growing domestically). It's simply shifting capacity from existing markets to Seattle and LAX.
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:26 am

yes that is quite a downsizing...although it still retains markets like GRR, MSN. And it still retains the CDG flight. If CDG ever goes away then that will be pretty much the writing on the wall. I dont think anyone ever expected CVG would ever return to a large hub...at 87 flights its still a large station for DL. I would think they would term it as a focus city vs a hub though, but thats just my opinion.
 
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jetpixx
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:30 am

Looking at this...DTW getting the 320, and ORD going from 6 CRJ to 1 CRJ and 5 CR9...aren't that upgrades or more seats, not downsizing?
ABE, BIL, BOS, BUF, BWI, CAE, CAK, CHS, CLE, CLT, CVG, DAY, DFW, DTW, EWR, FLL, GSO, IAD, IAH, IND, ISP, JAX, JFK, LAS, LAX, LGA, MDW, MEM, MHT, MIA, MKE, MLB, MSO, MSP, OMA, ORD, PBI, PHL, PIT, PVD, RDU, SEA, SFO, SLC, SJU, STL, SYR, TLH, TMB, TUL, YVR
 
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
JAX, MSY discontinued
MCO reduced to 1xM88 from 2xM88
RSW reduced to Saturday-only

At the same time the above also represent the routes where Allegiant is now operating to from CVG. Some like MSY are only a short seasonal and in the case of RSW G4 uses PGD instead. And of course G4 is less than daily.

For the CVG leisure traveler the routes have switched from a legacy to an ULCC but at least they are still flown.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
tommy767
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:01 am

EWR gets a CR9 as well. Big upgrade from the CRJ.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
N867DA
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:09 am

I wonder how many people in metro Cincinnati make the drive to DAY, SDF, or LEX to get a cheaper fare. Southwest has not bothered with CVG, and perhaps if DL keeps cutting destinations they will see an opening. The city has GE Aviation, Kroger, and P&G nearby--surely those companies may demand a certain level of service?
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FWAERJ
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 12):
I wonder how many people in metro Cincinnati make the drive to DAY, SDF, or LEX to get a cheaper fare.

Don't forget IND. That airport also sees a lot of CVG leakage - in fact, IND advertised in Cincy a few years back.
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Shields
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 12):
I wonder how many people in metro Cincinnati make the drive to DAY, SDF, or LEX to get a cheaper fare.

My understanding is that the leakage has declined over the past year or so, now that F9 and G4 are serving CVG. Local passengers at CVG increased 5.9% in 2014 over the previous year. DAY, the closest alternate to CVG, saw an 8.7% drop in traffic last year.

It is frustrating to see these hacks continue month after month, although CVG *still* retains a respectable level of service from DL to non-hub markets, including BDL, EWR, PHL, BWI, CLT, RDU, MSN, GRR, MCI, STL, XNA, IAH, MKE, etc. I still believe that Cincinnatians should be grateful for the amount of service (albeit pricey) at their hometown airport.

[Edited 2015-02-15 18:26:28]
 
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AirportRival
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 10):
At the same time the above also represent the routes where Allegiant is now operating to from CVG. Some like MSY are only a short seasonal and in the case of RSW G4 uses PGD instead. And of course G4 is less than daily.

For the CVG leisure traveler the routes have switched from a legacy to an ULCC but at least they are still flown.

Actually G4 was flying some of it's routes out of CVG daily for a while. It looks like CVG-SFB is 6x/wk still.

Quoting Shields (Reply 14):
My understanding is that the leakage has declined over the past year or so,

This is true. Southwest isn't cheaper than F9 or G4 so the surrounding airports don't get as many Cincinnatians as they use too.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:56 am

DL CVG is focused on O&D, all of the connecting flow has been moved to DTW & ATL.
 
steeler83
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:26 am

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
peak-day departures, Summer 2014:
105 (including 21 mainline); approximately 8,200 seats

peak-day departures, Summer 2015
87 (including 19 mainline); approximately 7,200 seats

So about a 17% reduction in flights and 12% in pure capacity.

When US cut its PIT presence in 2008 from 110 flights down to 68, PIT was pretty much no longer a focus city at that point. DL's presence at CVG is almost on par with UA at CLE, which is no longer a hub. I think we can all safely say that MEM and now CVG are no longer hubs in the DL system.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
CALMSP
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:38 am

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 8):

I'd say GRR maintains its service due to ties within the Fifth Third Banking world. Outside of that, I can't understand why it still exists.
 
a380787
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting Shields (Reply 14):

CVG has the highest airfares next to IAH and EWR (among larger airports). For any CVG customer paying out of their own pocket, hard to say whether there's anything to be grateful about.

It's an airport that's very ripe for ULCC invasion.
 
29erUSA187
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:57 am

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
seasonal SAN not resuming

Thats a shame. Sad to see SAN loose a destination.
 
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AirportRival
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:00 am

Quoting Airxliban (Reply 4):
Any idea if the MEM flight will survive?

Ultimate Air Shuttle (a scheduled charter based in CVG) is supposed to start CVG-MEM in March so even if DL does discontinue the route it won't disappear from CVG's or MEM's route maps.

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
peak-day departures, Summer 2015
87 (including 19 mainline); approximately 7,200 seats

Is this counting the LGA flight that will be a regular 717?
 
Shields
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 19):
CVG has the highest airfares next to IAH and EWR (among larger airports). For any CVG customer paying out of their own pocket, hard to say whether there's anything to be grateful about.

Fair point about the price of airfare; however, CVG still maintains a surprisingly impressive number of nonstop destinations for a city of Cincinnati's size. It's a mixed bag.
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:35 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 16):
DL CVG is focused on O&D, all of the connecting flow has been moved to DTW & ATL.

Several thousand people still connect through CVG most days. DL may be targeting O&D, but without flow traffic, many of these flights would be unsustainable. Consider GRR: it's operating operating as 2xCRJ most days, but is being reduced to 1xCRJ - not a CR7, CR9/E75 or 717. Meanwhile, a flight from DTW-GRR-DTW that's scheduled with similar times to the discontinued CVG-GRR-CVG flight is being upgauged from an M90 to 757. Of course, DL's summer schedule is still a WIP -- I wouldn't be surprised if the 757 between DTW/GRR went to a CRJ and the ATL-GRR flight upgauged from a 717 to 763... (sadly, I'm only half exaggerating).
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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PA727
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:53 am

Significantly less high-profile than CDG, but if XNA disappears it would be quite telling. That flight might as well be call the P&G shuttle with the number of employees traveling back and forth to P&G's Northwest Arkansas office, where they service Walmart.

Per Delta.com, the R/T fare 30 days advance on the non stop CVG-XNA-CVG for a Monday departure, Thursday return is $850 on a CRJ. With one stop, - either through ATL or MSP - it's north of $1000 R/T.

At AA.com the price for the same dates and similar timings is $422 R/T with one stop. If you want to fly paid F, it's $834, connecting through ORD. So less expensive and a more direct connection.

UA for the same dates doesn't really have timings that match up, the closest I could find was an afternoon arrival rather than morning, and it was $424.

For the record, this is no knock on DL, if they can command that yield and sell the tickets, good for them. I think it just highlights the strategic routes they're keeping at CVG.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:26 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):

Yes, Delta only made $4.5 billion in profits last year, clearly something had to change improve performance. LOL

Yes just because they are profitable, making positive changes to the network is stupid.
 
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:55 am

CVG needs airfare reductions, even if that comes at the expense of less destinations IMHO

Airfares are killing CVG businesses more than anything, the hub is gone and even on the non hub routes left frequency probably makes people connect for optimal times quite often. I am glad some LCC got into CVG lets hope they can get spirit or jetblue next......
 
Flymichael21
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
MCO reduced to 1xM88 from 2xM88

I clearly see where it shows one MD88 in the summer, but it is so hard to believe that will be the case.

This friday, CVG - MCO is three mainlines. Two MD88, and one A320, currently at 94% LF.
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting Flymichael21 (Reply 27):
I clearly see where it shows one MD88 in the summer, but it is so hard to believe that will be the case.

This friday, CVG - MCO is three mainlines. Two MD88, and one A320, currently at 94% LF.

We're in the heart of the winter travel season. A week ago or so DL tossed five 763 on DTW-MCO in one day -- three or four were last-minute equipment swaps.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:05 am

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
ORD going from 6xCRJ to 1xCRJ, 5xCR9

Unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't this be considered an UPGAUGE?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Flymichael21
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:09 am

Quoting compensateme (Reply 28):
We're in the heart of the winter travel season. A week ago or so DL tossed five 763 on DTW-MCO in one day -- three or four were last-minute equipment swaps.

Thanks for the info.

I understand winter travel is big to MCO, but didn't realize it was that big of a difference compared to the summer.
 
questions
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:24 am

What was the number of DL flights, seats and destinations at CVG's peak?
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:51 am

An under-served airport loses more service. I feel for CVG passengers. I'm surprised the LCCs haven't focused in on CVG. Has to be tons of low hanging fruit available.
 
DeltaXNA
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:09 am

is the XNA flight subsidized?
 
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SANFan
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:22 am

According to the OAG-thread, SEA-CVG might be seeing decreased frequency also; May apparently has been reduced from about 6x weekly to twice a week. (It could increase for the rest of the summer but perhaps not...)

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
seasonal SAN not resuming

Sad to see the route go but at least it did outlast many other cities' service to CVG.

bb
 
PHX787
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:52 am

Not only DL, but UA's timetable is making it even harder to get back to my hometown....excruciatingly long layovers at ORD, very few to no west coast connections on UA....not to mention DL's pretty shoddy west coast service from CVG.

Getting home is a pain these days. Ugh. Can't stand DL's monopolizing right now.

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
CVG will be experiencing its most significant cuts in service in several years this upcoming summer.

Horrible timing. I'm going to be back and forth a lot this summer.

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
DTW getting mainline (320)

That's the only good news I see.

Quoting compensateme (Thread starter):
seasonal SAN not resuming

Again, CVG-west coast is pathetic.

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
Or the opposite. Didn't they make some sort of service commitment related to the terminal deal? Is it over?

All I know is that Concourse C is held under lease until 2025.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 8):
And it still retains the CDG flight.

Subsidized by P&G.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 10):
For the CVG leisure traveler the routes have switched from a legacy to an ULCC but at least they are still flown.

That doesn't mean these fliers are enjoying them. Can't go a day without my facebook exploding from hate against G4 and F9. Seriously.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 12):
I wonder how many people in metro Cincinnati make the drive to DAY, SDF, or LEX to get a cheaper fare.

I'm about to do that not cuz of the fare but because of the ease of connection. It's easier and timelier for me to fly UA from NRT, make a stopover somewhere and then to IND and then drive back to ohio, then having to use DL from MSP or DTW. I can't even use DL to go through SEA to CVG anymore!

Quoting N867DA (Reply 12):
The city has GE Aviation, Kroger, and P&G nearby--surely those companies may demand a certain level of service?

They do. They are demanding a LOT. It's why every day in the news everybody's pissed off at the KCAB.
I take part in business conventions quite often in the city, as you all know, and every day people just bash the ULCCs, and say they wish DL would sustain more service....but alas, that's what happens when you have mass consolidation.
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enilria
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
Yes just because they are profitable, making positive changes to the network is stupid.

You said numerous times that CVG was profitable, so I'm not sure how that squares with your past comments.
 
michman
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
Or the opposite. Didn't they make some sort of service commitment related to the terminal deal? Is it over?

I believe only MSP has contractual service commitments with DL.
 
Italianflyer
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:56 pm

What is the crew base population there these days? Last I heard, CVG was/is a 73H pilot base and about 250ish F/As. I wonder how long they can sustain that with 19 mainline departures without a ton of DH trips or co-terminal patterns with DAY, CMH, SDF, etc.
 
brilondon
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
Yes, Delta only made $4.5 billion in profits last year, clearly something had to change improve performance. LOL

Apparently what you missed was the declining environment that DL is working with. Yes the corporation overall was very profitable but did CVG make a contribution to that profit or if CVG were eliminated would there be a larger profit to be had.

Are there any numbers that would justify increasing the number of destinations and mainline flights to increase profitability?
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
ncflyer
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:28 am

It really amazes me that there is no direct service between CLE and CVG anymore. Those have to be the two largest cities in the same state without air service, that aren't say 2 hours apart. You'd think sales folks with OH territories would at least support a little bit of weekday flying. I'm a Cleveland and I know very well that CLE revolves much more around PIT and DTW and ORD and CMH--- and CVG the south, but still a couple a props per day??
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:53 am

Quoting DC10LOVER (Reply 5):
And because the economy is getting worse the shrinkage continues. Not just CVG but other places as well.

?????

I think you are a few years off.

Economy in the US is on the upswing and the airlines have record profits.
 
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SANFan
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:55 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 42):
But WN's massive operation there isn't going anywhere,

A lot of people say this. However, I think there very well might be some reduction in WN's ops in PHX.

I know that I'm seeing in SAN, with the addition of more and more nonstop destinations, the need for capacity to the connecting points such as PHX and LAS, is very slowly being reduced. (Just a couple of years ago SAN-PHX saw 11-12 daily flts, seasonally adjusted; now I'm seeing 10-11 flights.)

Not a huge deal, but it appears that other w/c cities are also seeing more new nonstop destinations on WN (e.g., SNA, LAX, OAK, etc.) so PHX (and LAS) might be gradually relying more and more on local O&D traffic and less on connections.

Larger planes are also a trend that eventually leads to fewer flights needed.

Just something to think about.

bb
 
F9Animal
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:11 am

Did anyone really expect CVG to maintain pre NW merger operations? I would imagine we are just starting to really see the effects of the merger taking its toll on hubs that won't be able to sustain what they were. I am still saddened about MEM, but really, what good is MEM when compare with ATL?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:47 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 45):
the need for capacity to the connecting points such as PHX and LAS,

Yeah, but you seem to just be thinking domestically.

PHX has significant O&D from Mexico, and is in a prime location to handle Mexican transfer traffic that doesn't want to spin out as far as HOU then backtrack. I could definitely see PHX becoming a decent Mexican gateway for WN, once HOU is up to speed.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:01 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 44):
PHX has significant O&D from Mexico

No, it does not. PHXMEX and PHXGDL are decent size O&D markets, but nonetheless neither breaks 75 PDEW. All the other traffic is largely Phoenix-originating and going to the resorts. PHXHMO is the third largest non-resort market and it is 7 PDEW.
a.
 
afcjets
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:06 am

Quoting jetpixx (Reply 9):
Looking at this...DTW getting the 320, and ORD going from 6 CRJ to 1 CRJ and 5 CR9...aren't that upgrades or more seats, not downsizing?

They will be routing more passengers via DTW now with the cutbacks elsewhere so more capacity is needed.
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting PA727 (Reply 24):

Significantly less high-profile than CDG, but if XNA disappears it would be quite telling. That flight might as well be call the P&G shuttle with the number of employees traveling back and forth to P&G's Northwest Arkansas office, where they service Walmart.

Per Delta.com, the R/T fare 30 days advance on the non stop CVG-XNA-CVG for a Monday departure, Thursday return is $850 on a CRJ. With one stop, - either through ATL or MSP - it's north of $1000 R/T.

At AA.com the price for the same dates and similar timings is $422 R/T with one stop. If you want to fly paid F, it's $834, connecting through ORD. So less expensive and a more direct connection.


Traffic out of XNA continues to increase Jan 15 is up nearly 7% from Jan 14. XNA had a record 640,000 enplanements last year. The area continues to grow with a near doubling in pop projected in the next 20 years.
 
tommy767
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:04 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 43):

I think a lot expected it to survive because of the business community in CVG, whereas MEM has a complete lack of.

When it's all said and done, it will probably be a large focus city -- not that it already could be categorized as one.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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william
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:08 pm

One have to wander why Spirit or SWA has not swooped into CVG. Maybe it speaks to CVG's O&D traffic.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos