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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:20 am

CVG was made more redundant by DTW. When the leases are up in 2020, CVG will only have DL service to ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP and maybe SLC (which is a very big "if")
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mayor
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:23 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 100):
CVG was made more redundant by DTW. When the leases are up in 2020, CVG will only have DL service to ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP and maybe SLC (which is a very big "if")

CVG will probably be back to what they were before they became a hub.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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AirportRival
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting crazytoaster (Reply 99):
Pretty cool actually. Frontier taking up more leisure destinations that DL just dropped I assume. I don't have much of a problem with ULCC, just need to adjust expectations

I know that is the likely outcome but my gut tells me that they may be adding ORD or ATL. I don't particularly know why I feel like that is going to happen but it's just what my gut says.
 
crazytoaster
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting AirportRival (Reply 102):
I know that is the likely outcome but my gut tells me that they may be adding ORD or ATL. I don't particularly know why I feel like that is going to happen but it's just what my gut says.

Ya on second thought you are probably right... With their recent buildups there. My guess is on TPA
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WaywardMemphian
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting jb1087xna (Reply 98):
XNA just has more non-stop destinations, though they're just to hubs of the various carriers.

Well, yes and no. Some hub nonstops are destinations as well. And XNA does have some Allegiant flights to Las Vegas and Orlando,

You can call Dallas a hub destination but that's also the U of A's largest alumni base outside of the state and the U of A is attracting thousands of students from Texas, particularly from the Metroplex.
NWA, therefore, XNA now has an MSA of over 500,000, that's Des Moines size, in addition is often mentioned as one of the top growing economic regions in the country. Not to mention, we now have folks coming in from outside just to see Crystal Bridges.
 
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knope2001
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 93):
Delta's CVG ops may shrink further but most of DL's 50-seater reduction is already in place: DL went from a peak of ~500 50-seaters in 2009 to 206 (see the annual report) on 12/31/14. In the last six years lots of upgauging has occurred:

CR2s and E-145s dumped as new CR9s enter the fleet

Saabs gone

~65 DC-9s replaced seat-for-seat with 49 used MD-90s

Is dropping another eighty 50-seaters likely to cause some frequency reduction and service drops: yes. City-count Armageddon? No.

The new summer schedule has 30 CVG departures on 50-seat RJ's (excluding CRJ/ERJ to hubs like MSP). Given the bank structure and typical stage length that's about 10-12 lines of CRJ/ERJ flying. So there's not a great deal of 50-seat RJ aircraft at Cincinnati anymore (with the latest schedule) to keep or cut regardless of Delta's eventual plans.

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 104):
Quoting jb1087xna (Reply 98):XNA just has more non-stop destinations, though they're just to hubs of the various carriers.

Well, yes and no. Some hub nonstops are destinations as well. And XNA does have some Allegiant flights to Las Vegas and Orlando,

Here are the average daily enplanements (each way) at XNA from the 3rd quarter of 2014 in the top 30 markets. Note that Cincinnati is only #26. These are O+D numbers, not nonstop passengers but where people ended when starting a journey from XNA on the average day.

1 . 94 lax
2 . 90 lga
3 . 87 ord
4 . 77 atl
5 . 68 dfw
6 . 57 las
7 . 49 sfb
8 . 42 clt
9 . 40 ewr
10 . 34 sfo
11 . 33 msp
12 . 33 bos
13 . 30 iah
14 . 30 dca
15 . 28 den
16 . 26 phl
17 . 23 mco
18 . 23 dtw
19 . 22 sea
20 . 19 aus
21 . 17 bna
22 . 16 san
23 . 16 tpa
24 . 16 pit
25 . 15 mco
26 . 15 cvg
27 . 15 bwi
28 . 15 rdu
29 . 14 cle
30 . 14 phx

It's interesting how far down the list CVG actually is.

Quoting WaywardMemphian (Reply 104):
NWA, therefore, XNA now has an MSA of over 500,000, that's Des Moines size, in addition is often mentioned as one of the top growing economic regions in the country.

A little overly-optimistic? 2013 metro area estimates:
491,966 Fayetteville/Springdale/Rodgers AR, an increase of 6.2% since 2010
599,789 Des Moines / West Des Moines IA, an increase of 5.3% since 2010

The Fayetteville area is almost certainly 500k plus today, but Des Moines is still more than 20% larger and not growing too much slower.
 
WaywardMemphian
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:01 am

So, some of our Hub flights happen to be destination flights. Bout right. That has MCO list twice, Sanford gets a good bit due to Allegiant.

the Cincy numbers confound me, Just cause the little Branson airport are starting Cincy flights too.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 105):
A little overly-optimistic? 2013 metro area estimates:
491,966 Fayetteville/Springdale/Rodgers AR, an increase of 6.2% since 2010
599,789 Des Moines / West Des Moines IA, an increase of 5.3% since 2010

The Fayetteville area is almost certainly 500k plus today, but Des Moines is still more than 20% larger and not growing too much slower.

The NWA MSA is at around 507,000 at this moment, it's really heated up around here since 2013. It's about to get another retail expansion boom that will bring in new folks that will manage these national retailers. My exicitement is based on projections.
This is a good tool: http://datatools.urban.org/features/mapping-americas-futures/#map

Like Mayor said, many in Ft. Smith will drive the 1 to 1:15 minutes to XNA, So based on adding the NWA and Ft. Smith MSA projections, The I-49 corridor in Arkansas surpasses Des Moines in 2030. In 2030, FSM and XNA MSAs will be larger than Tulsa's and close to Memphis
.As the XNA market grows, when will Southwest take notice especially as it surpasses Tulsa. What Des Moines and NWA has for them, is the growth is being driven in the 20 to 49 year old demo. That's young folks and families and they like to travel and not in an RV.
 
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mayor
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:22 am

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 105):
491,966 Fayetteville/Springdale/Rodgers AR, an increase of 6.2% since 2010

I'm thinking Bentonville should be included in that, too.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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knope2001
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:07 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 107):
491,966 Fayetteville/Springdale/Rogers AR, an increase of 6.2% since 2010
I'm thinking Bentonville should be included in that, too.

It is included -- it's just not in the official name of the metro area. Fayetteville, Springdale and Rogers are all larger cities than Bentonville. The metro area is all of Benton, Washington and Madison counties in Arkansas and McDonald County in Missouri.

[Edited 2015-02-22 05:39:48]
 
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AirportRival
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:45 pm

This was just posted on urbanohio.com. The guy has been pretty reliable in the past when CVG had an announcement to make. I'm surprised with the expansions of LAS, MCO, and FLL. They must be doing pretty darn good on those routes. I'm not at all surprised with the ATL addition. Overall though this will be a rather big increase so I'm excited to see it. It gives Frontier 10 destinations from CVG.

Quoting richNcincy:
Frontier will be announcing the following on Monday:

Increasing service to Las Vegas from 7 flights a week to 14
Increasing service to Orlando from 4 flights a week to 7
Increasing service to Fort Lauderdale from 3 flights a week to 7
New daily service to Ft. Myers
New daily service to Atlanta

Total flights by Frontier from CVG will go from 32 a week to 61. Seat capacity will increase from 4,500 seats to 8,500.

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/inde.../topic,3484.770.html#ixzz3STqedvCk
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:30 pm

CVG had a great run.

Sincerely,

-CLE, MEM, MKE, PIT, BNA, RDU, CMH, STL, and others from the list of shuttered hubs.

I haven't flown thru CVG in years, because I avoid CRJs and that's 90% of what DL seems to flow through there. However, I do recall when it was a happening place in the early 2000s. I believe at one point there were 8x mainline flights RDU-CVG (mostly 757). Ah the good ole days.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
lpdal
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:53 pm

Hi everyone, I very recently published my experiences regarding the CVG "downsization" here: Delta First Class+Dead Hubs+MD-90s PBI✈CVG✈MEM✈MIA (by lpdal Feb 18 2015 in Trip Reports)

(after requesting clarification from a mod, of course   )

The poster who claimed DL flies 90% regional jets is, unfortunately, correct. When we landed in our MD-90, we were the only mainline operated DL aircraft on the block, and the terminal was quiet as a church mouse. It was a Sunday, though.

What I'm surprised at, however, is that FLL service is being kept even though RSW and etc. are being cut. I wonder what sets FLL apart from the rest of the Floridian pack.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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AirportRival
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:23 am

Give it time. With Frontier and Allegiant both expanding I wouldn't be surprised to see Delta pull most of its Florida flights from CVG.
 
ipodguy7
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:22 am

I dummy-booked several DL hubs today and found that for a random Summer Tuesday (July 21), DL has 73 departures listed for CVG (71 domestic, 2 international- YYZ/CDG). While not fully representative of a week's operations, this should provide a picture (a dim one at that) of the CVG hub. (for comparison, SEA (the smallest DL hub-operation I looked at) has 124).
AA/DL/NW/CO/UA/US/B6/AS/AC/FI/NY/EI/BD/BA/AF/AZ/DY/SK/QF/JQ/JL
 
PHX787
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting william (Reply 49):
One have to wander why Spirit or SWA has not swooped into CVG. Maybe it speaks to CVG's O&D traffic.
Quoting LHCVG (Reply 50):
And that is the age old question! LCC's have tried in the past but nothing has stuck. G4 and F9 are the only two I can recall that have had any kind of traction to them. But so far they seem to be carving out a niche for themselves.

Because CVG has a reputation of DL monopolistically driving out LCCs. WN has always stated they like being at SDF and DAY and I'm also assuming both of these are waiting for G4's and F9's experiment results.
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lhcvg
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 114):

I do think it's worth noting though that WN is a qualitatively different animal now than the ULCC's. As a more or less full-scale "network carrier" now, WN coming in would be a serious challenge to DL and the other legacies that G4 and F9 are not. Driving DL off of MSY and some places in Florida is one thing, but WN would hurt CVG-Chicago/DEN/ATL in a far more serious way, and that's not to mention their network connectivity as well beyond their p2p routes.
 
michman
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 113):
I dummy-booked several DL hubs today and found that for a random Summer Tuesday (July 21), DL has 73 departures listed for CVG (71 domestic, 2 international- CDG). While not fully representative of a week's operations, this should provide a picture (a dim one at that) of the CVG hub. (for comparison, SEA (the smallest DL hub-operation I looked at) has 124).

Looks like you missed a few flights. I'd suggest your methodology is flawed. DL will have 89 peak departures this summer from CVG to 37 destinations.

DTW 6x
YYZ 1x
PIT 2x
BOS 4x
BDL 2x
EWR 3x
LGA 6x
JFK 1x
PHX 3x
DCA 4x
BWI 2x
GRR 1x
RIC 2x
ORD 6x
MKE 2x
MSN 1x
MSP 6x
STL 2x
MCI 2x
XNA 1x
MEM 2x
BNA 2x
ATL 7x
CLT 3x
RDU 2x
MCO 1x
FLL 1x
TPA 1x
IAH 1x
DFW 3x
CDG 1x
DEN 1x
SLC 2x
SEA 1x
SFO 1x
LAS 1x
LAX 2x

[Edited 2015-03-02 10:08:14]
 
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mariner
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 114):
Because CVG has a reputation of DL monopolistically driving out LCCs.

LCC's - yes.

But Delta doesn't appear to have reacted to the invasions of its various turfs by the ULCC's, almost as if Delta is not interested in that lowest end market. Both Frontier and Spirit have thriving (and growing) operations at ATL.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 114):
. WN has always stated they like being at SDF and DAY and I'm also assuming both of these are waiting for G4's and F9's experiment results.

The only reason Frontier is at CVG at all is because Southwest started DEN-DAY, presumably to kick Frontier in the nuts.

I'd call it the law of unintended consequences.  

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sq452
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:22 am

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 62):
That's always been the pipe dream my dad and I would conjure up during summer nights on the deck -- build a central airport somewhere around Wilmington/Lebanon/etc. to serve the whole Cincy-Dayton-Columbus area and be done with it.

It would be along the I75 corridor if anything; Wilmington and Lebanon are too far off the beaten path and out of the way. At that location you are starting to pull on Columbus's southern suburbs a bit too and looking at the possibility of a CVG/DAY/CMH consolidation at that geographical location.

I don't see this ever materializing in the next 15-20 years but it does remain a possibility that it could happen at some point depending on how the two cities economies develop and how the I75 corridor is developing.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 63):
And for no reason quite honestly, other than an inherent Ohio vs. Kentucky bias against the fact that their airport is in Kentucky and run by hillbillies. Most non-avgeek haven't the first clue about how the airline industry or airport management works.

I think it has less to do with Ohio vs. Kentucky and more to do with the perception the KCAB is in Delta's pockets and lacks (or lacked) a certain level of business acumen necessary to efficiently anticipate the changing environment around them and what was going to happen with service levels at the airport. Nobody really gives a hoot that the airport is in Kentucky.

I think Delta wasn't completely honest with the KCAB, so you can't blame KCAB entirely, but still, the perception exists/existed KCAB didn't necessarily have the brightest crayons in the box overseeing the airport and looked like "yes" men to Delta doing whatever they wanted.

Additional case in point: when the fourth runway was built at CVG, it was entirely unnecessary and they went ahead with it anyway. The airport was already in the beginning stages of decline -or starting to show a reduction in traffic- and they pushed forward with it anyway. Widely regarded in the Cincinnati area as a waste of money. True that most people don't know the airline industry or airport management but any level headed person knows incompetence when they see it.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 72):
they have this excellent Chili Dog place whose name escapes my mind but was downright delicious.

That would be Gold Star Chili. The news stand -forget the name- to the west of the food court actually sells (or did sell) cans of the chili so you can haul some back next time.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:10 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 116):

Quoting ipodguy7 (Reply 113):
I dummy-booked several DL hubs today and found that for a random Summer Tuesday (July 21), DL has 73 departures listed for CVG (71 domestic, 2 international- CDG). While not fully representative of a week's operations, this should provide a picture (a dim one at that) of the CVG hub. (for comparison, SEA (the smallest DL hub-operation I looked at) has 124).

Looks like you missed a few flights. I'd suggest your methodology is flawed. DL will have 89 peak departures this summer from CVG to 37 destinations.

Thanks for listing schedules - one correction: PHL, no PHX. Guess DL has huge variation between Monday and Tuesday. For example, No IAH BNA on Tuesday, and many many routes show reduced frequency on Tuesday.

Looking at the schedule, it's still far from O&D favored schedule. For example, two CVG-STL departs within 1h30m in the middle of the day.
 
masseybrown
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting sq452 (Reply 118):
Additional case in point: when the fourth runway was built at CVG, it was entirely unnecessary and they went ahead with it anyway.

Same thing happened in St Louis. The nice thing about runways is they are mostly federally funded; no skin off local noses.
 
flyguy89
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting sq452 (Reply 118):
I think it has less to do with Ohio vs. Kentucky

The Ohio vs. Kentucky mentality most definitely has a lot to do with the discussion. All you have to do is read the comments section on news stories about CVG (or any other Ohio / Kentucky issue really) or talk to Cincinnatians, it’s the underlying animosity that drives the arguments and fuels idiotic ideas like high-speed rail or spending billions on a completely new airport (God help them if they spend a few million on a street car, but they're just raring to drop a few billion on a new airport   ).

Quoting sq452 (Reply 118):
and more to do with the perception the KCAB is in Delta's pockets and lacks (or lacked) a certain level of business acumen necessary to efficiently anticipate the changing environment around them and what was going to happen with service levels at the airport.

Sure, there may have been that perception, but it just goes to show people’s ignorance of the subject matter. When the Delta hub was bustling, people complained about fares, and now that the hub is slashed and fares are coming down, they’re complaining about lack of flight options…it’s a classic case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

What happened with CVG, and the airline industry overall really, no one could have predicted. The CVG hub went from being a money-making powerhouse to a profit-drag in just a few short years. Did the KCAB really treat DL any differently than, say, ATL does DL? Or CLT does US? Or DFW does AA? I don’t think so. I would say they were smart in many respects because they actually got DL to pay for T3 as opposed to what happened at PIT.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 118):
Additional case in point: when the fourth runway was built at CVG, it was entirely unnecessary and they went ahead with it anyway.

It was an iffy proposition, however at the time of its construction, there was reason to believe Asia flights were in the pipeline (DL applied for CVG-PEK) and there was the cargo hub to consider as well. Things certainly didn’t pan out as planned, however the runway has come in handy with DHL relocating and growing their global cargo hub back at CVG.
 
sq452
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 120):
Same thing happened in St Louis. The nice thing about runways is they are mostly federally funded; no skin off local noses.


Total Cost: $241 mln USD, only $137 mln was federal tax dollars. Total Waste of Money.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en-GB&v=ez8Qja116Gs&gl=SG (go to the 5:55 mark).

[Edited 2015-03-03 11:03:33]
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
sq452
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 121):
Sure, there may have been that perception, but it just goes to show people’s ignorance of the subject matter. When the Delta hub was bustling, people complained about fares, and now that the hub is slashed and fares are coming down, they’re complaining about lack of flight options…it’s a classic case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

What happened with CVG, and the airline industry overall really, no one could have predicted. The CVG hub went from being a money-making powerhouse to a profit-drag in just a few short years. Did the KCAB really treat DL any differently than, say, ATL does DL? Or CLT does US? Or DFW does AA? I don’t think so. I would say they were smart in many respects because they actually got DL to pay for T3 as opposed to what happened at PIT.

1) ATL is DL's homebase; the relationship with the airport authorities there would definitely have a different dynamic as DL isn't going anywhere anytime soon in ATL.

2) DL paying for T3 wasn't such a bad thing at the time and still isn't but you look at how empty concourse A and the now mothballed concourse C are/were and it felt for a few years that Delta ran the airport and not the KCAB.

3) Fares are still extremely expensive at CVG; they may have come down but on the whole, not significantly I would say. A roundtrip to BOS in early December on the weekdays was north of $850 on a CR9. That's just nuts.

4) I think you need to watch this investigative piece from WCPO from a few years ago

Whilst it is a damning investigative piece on the KCAB and airport management, the point the reporter makes at the end I think is noteworthy because whilst it is true the trifecta of things that happened -DL filing for bankruptcy, the merger with NW and the global recession- was fairly unpredictable, the impact that would have wasn't and should have been planned for; this is what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket and don't have a better, diversified strategy. Everything looks fine until the storm hits and you see how ill prepared they were for it. KCAB bet the farm on Delta for commercial service and in hindsight it was a poor decision to place so much emphasis on one airline.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 121):
It was an iffy proposition, however at the time of its construction, there was reason to believe Asia flights were in the pipeline (DL applied for CVG-PEK) and there was the cargo hub to consider as well. Things certainly didn’t pan out as planned, however the runway has come in handy with DHL relocating and growing their global cargo hub back at CVG.

Ah, I remember when PEK route authority was applied for and how excited I got for it! But I digress. One or two flights to Asia and a couple more cargo flights doesn't justify a quarter of a million dollars wasted on a new runway.

DHL and cargo operations really are at off-peak hours at CVG so they don't compete with commercial traffic all that much.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
Beatyair
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:32 pm

Like Memphis to Atlanta, Cincinnati is too close to Detroit.
Detroit has become a big transfer base for Delta.
 
sq452
Posts: 996
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting beatyair (Reply 124):
Like Memphis to Atlanta, Cincinnati is too close to Detroit.
Detroit has become a big transfer base for Delta.

That was one of the issues with DL/NW merger; all of a sudden there were four "hubs" within a 600 mile north to south line when it happened.

DET is a much larger metropolitan area than Cincinnati and Memphis and geographically it makes sense to keep the two hubs at the ends of the line and eliminate the ones in-between.

In a weird twist of fate and a small amount of irony; FedEx and DHL's largest cargo bases are at MEM and CVG respectfully. So whilst they both lost out on passenger traffic they survive as hubs for cargo where as ATL and DET don't have anything close to the dedicated cargo ops that MEM and CVG have.

[Edited 2015-03-03 11:40:23]
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
masseybrown
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting sq452 (Reply 122):
Total Cost: $241 mln USD, only $137 mln was federal tax dollars. Total Waste of Money.

The project must have included a lot more than just a new runway. By law the FAA's Airport andf Airway Trust Fund pays 75% of the capital costs of runway construction at large and medium hub airports.
 
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United787
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting cfichad (Reply 84):

I was just at CVG on Sunday morning and I was blown away at how downright depressing the airport is compared to what it was. It was a great airport to change planes in and to be a part of. Sadly its time has come and gone and CVG desperately needs to go a different direction. The fact that it is not a high O&D Market has no bearing on the fact that the infrastructure is there to create a nice east/west hub for a Jetblue type of operation. I doubt it would happen but it would be nice to see.

Looking at Google Earth, there are only 5 DL CRJs at that airport, that is it! I am sure that is just a snap shot at the lowest volume hour but still...
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3042
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:12 pm

Quoting sq452 (Reply 123):
1) ATL is DL's homebase; the relationship with the airport authorities there would definitely have a different dynamic as DL isn't going anywhere anytime soon in ATL.

The fact that ATL is DL’s homebody isn’t relevant to my point. Fact is DL is ATL’s largest and most important customer, and they’re treated as such.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 123):
2) DL paying for T3 wasn't such a bad thing at the time and still isn't but you look at how empty concourse A and the now mothballed concourse C are/were and it felt for a few years that Delta ran the airport and not the KCAB.

How it felt doesn’t really matter, the fact that the airport wasn’t left holding the bag on massive bond payments was a god-send that has kept CVG from a PIT-like spiral of decreased service/higher fees.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 123):
3) Fares are still extremely expensive at CVG; they may have come down but on the whole, not significantly I would say. A roundtrip to BOS in early December on the weekdays was north of $850 on a CR9. That's just nuts.

Rome wasn’t built in a day, my friend. LCC growth at CVG has only been happening for little over a year now and, this summer, will account for almost 20% of the airport’s capacity. Are things perfect? No. As you cited, competition on key business markets would be ideal, but overall, things are fine and the sky isn't falling.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 123):
4) I think you need to watch this investigative piece from WCPO from a few years ago

I’ve seen that piece and don’t believe it really offers up anything new. I found CVG-lost-half-of-all-flights" target="_blank">this article the most informative analysis on the hub.

It’s easy to play armchair CEO years after the fact, but the fact is, up until 9/11 and the beginnings of merger-mania, there were no indications the hub was in any danger. It was extremely profitable, Comair was riding high and DL was bullish on CVG’s prospects, why wouldn’t the KCAB have gotten chummy with DL? It resulted in a hub operation that, for decades, afforded the Cincinnati community unbelievable levels of air service for a market its size along with all of the extra jobs that came with it.

What should they have done differently? That the Cincinnati community didn’t support the LCC competitors that did give CVG a go prior to F9 and G4 certainly isn’t their fault.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 123):
Ah, I remember when PEK route authority was applied for and how excited I got for it! But I digress. One or two flights to Asia and a couple more cargo flights doesn't justify a quarter of a million dollars wasted on a new runway.

It certainly did turn out to be a very unwise investment, my point was that its existence is, at the very least, not completely wasted.
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 120):
Same thing happened in St Louis. The nice thing about runways is they are mostly federally funded; no skin off local noses.

Unnecessary maybe, but whenever you do have the chance to be one of three-abreast on final, it is a cool sight for avgeeks! Had that happen a couple years ago.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 125):
In a weird twist of fate and a small amount of irony; FedEx and DHL's largest cargo bases are at MEM and CVG respectfully. So whilst they both lost out on passenger traffic they survive as hubs for cargo where as ATL and DET don't have anything close to the dedicated cargo ops that MEM and CVG have.

And there is a fair bit of 747 traffic too boot, we're not just talking about old DC-8's, 767's, etc.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4795
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:56 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en-GB&v=ez8Qja116Gs&gl=SG

Its old but a great video.
The airport is so lucky to have lease payments coming in on concourse C thru 2025. I am sure they plane on tearing it down the day that lease ends, but makes sense to leave it up and make delta keep paying.


If you were a business traveler and landed in CVG its certainly seems like a depressing empty place, but they have done a good job at making improvements.
 
sq452
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 130):
If you were a business traveler and landed in CVG its certainly seems like a depressing empty place, but they have done a good job at making improvements.

The consolidation of everyone into T3 and the A and B concourse was a brilliant move and definitely needed for the aesthetic appeal for other carriers (T1 and T2 were just downright depressing).

Flying in and through CVG these days means at least you don't have to deal with crowds. It's hard to believe the B concourse is 20 years old already and hasn't had many significant improvements to the infrastructure/interior. Look at a picture of B from the 90's and today and you can't really tell much of a difference.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 128):
It certainly did turn out to be a very unwise investment, my point was that its existence is, at the very least, not completely wasted.
Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 126):
The project must have included a lot more than just a new runway. By law the FAA's Airport andf Airway Trust Fund pays 75% of the capital costs of runway construction at large and medium hub airports.

I seem to recall reading something/seeing something about the costs to maintain 18R and the costs to decommission it and it basically left the impression on me that they are "damned if they do and damned if they don't" with keeping 18R open or closed.

Federal funds only accounted for about 60% of the new runway costs; $241 million seems like the going rate for a new runway these days based on other new runway comparisons/estimates at other airports.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 129):
And there is a fair bit of 747 traffic too boot, we're not just talking about old DC-8's, 767's, etc.

the 747-800F's too! I think I've seen a 777F as well. It certainly is a beautiful plane to see.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 129):
Unnecessary maybe, but whenever you do have the chance to be one of three-abreast on final, it is a cool sight for avgeeks! Had that happen a couple years ago.

That would be pretty cool. I remember being on short finals parallel to another aircraft at SFO and with the narrow separation it was very slick. CVG's parallel runways are spaced a bit further apart and staggered but a triple parallel approach would be quite slick.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 128):
Rome wasn’t built in a day, my friend. LCC growth at CVG has only been happening for little over a year now and, this summer, will account for almost 20% of the airport’s capacity. Are things perfect? No. As you cited, competition on key business markets would be ideal, but overall, things are fine and the sky isn't falling.

It's good to see the LCC growth happening at CVG; I personally know people that love taking Frontier and have ditched Delta entirely. LCC growth was always an issue in the past because the LCC's in the 90's/early 2000's tried to go head-to-head with Delta on routes whilst it was still "Fortress Delta"...Delta would drop fares, offer Skymiles incentives and the LCC's would be done with. LCC growth has been successful because G4 and F9 are now mainly filling voids instead of competing head on and people in CVG have finally woken up to what Delta has done to the airport.

A JetBlue scissors hub would be nice for some secondary markets in Florida to West Coast (otherwise people have to backtrack to JFK or BOS) but I doubt it would happen. If anyone were to make it a hub/focus city it would be F9.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
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AirportRival
Posts: 405
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Wed Mar 04, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting sq452 (Reply 131):
the 747-800F's too! I think I've seen a 777F as well. It certainly is a beautiful plane to see.

You have indeed. Southern Air flies the 777. When I worked at DHL I heard a rumor that Atlas had purchased some as well and that they would start flying them from CVG after DHL's next expansion.
 
sq452
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:39 pm

A bit off topic but, does anyone know what the CVG - Asia PDEW is, roughly? (I'd include destinations in Asia being PUS, ICN, NRT, NGO, KIX, FUK, PEK, PVG, MNL, HKG, SGN, HAN, KUL, BKK, SIN, CGK, DPS and TPE)
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3042
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RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting sq452 (Reply 133):

A bit off topic but, does anyone know what the CVG - Asia PDEW is, roughly? (I'd include destinations in Asia being PUS, ICN, NRT, NGO, KIX, FUK, PEK, PVG, MNL, HKG, SGN, HAN, KUL, BKK, SIN, CGK, DPS and TPE)

According to the Brookings data, in 2011 it stood around 63 PDEW.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 131):
Flying in and through CVG these days means at least you don't have to deal with crowds.

True, however T3 is a lot less depressing now that all non-DL carriers have consolidated into Concourse A. Both trains are running again, and there's a bit more bustle to it.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 131):
I seem to recall reading something/seeing something about the costs to maintain 18R and the costs to decommission it and it basically left the impression on me that they are "damned if they do and damned if they don't" with keeping 18R open or closed.


Fortunately the KCAB has been very prudent with finances. Their bond rating was recently upgraded and their landing fees are competitive with other airports its size, they've actually cut landing fees this year as well.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 131):
LCC growth was always an issue in the past because the LCC's in the 90's/early 2000's tried to go head-to-head with Delta on routes whilst it was still "Fortress Delta"...Delta would drop fares, offer Skymiles incentives and the LCC's would be done with.

I remember poor little Vanguard gave CVG a go TWICE. The Cincinnati traveling public is to blame here however. They complained and complained about DL, their "monopoly" and high fares, yet they continued to patronize DL when LCC competition existed.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 131):
LCC growth has been successful because G4 and F9 are now mainly filling voids instead of competing head on and people in CVG have finally woken up to what Delta has done to the airport.


Not necessarily. Both G4 and CVG have gone head to head with DL in a number of markets: Orlando, Tampa Bay, Southwest Florida, Ft. Lauderdale, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Las Vegas and Denver. I think the growth is more a demonstration of the pent up demand that exists in Cincinnati for even just reasonably priced flights.
 
lhcvg
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon May 25, 2009 2:53 pm

RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting sq452 (Reply 131):
the 747-800F's too! I think I've seen a 777F as well. It certainly is a beautiful plane to see.

I know the 748F has been there in Atlas colors, there is even at least one pic on here of two at once! Haven't personally seen a pic of a 77F but I'd believe it.

Quoting sq452 (Reply 131):
That would be pretty cool. I remember being on short finals parallel to another aircraft at SFO and with the narrow separation it was very slick. CVG's parallel runways are spaced a bit further apart and staggered but a triple parallel approach would be quite slick.

It is something to see as long as visibility is good and all that. For me it was a sunny summer afternoon and we were just turning onto final for 18L when off the right wing was a 757 adjusting AoA just before dropping the gear, and an Eagle Jungle Jet off to the right for 18R.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 134):
Not necessarily. Both G4 and CVG have gone head to head with DL in a number of markets: Orlando, Tampa Bay, Southwest Florida, Ft. Lauderdale, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Las Vegas and Denver. I think the growth is more a demonstration of the pent up demand that exists in Cincinnati for even just reasonably priced flights.

Nitpicking, but ULCC competition with legacies is not complete overlap. DL running CMH-TPA for example is something I'd say is very much in direct competition with WN CMH-TPA in terms of the pax both are fighting for. But DL and G4 to Orlando aren't 100% the same group of pax IMHO.

JAX and MSY seem like perfect opportunities to elbow in, because I offhand I don't see the major demand at "retail" prices for leisure trips to those places (year-round at least), and no particular Cincinnati business connection. But if DL abandons CVG-MCO, then I will be surprised (I'm thinking enough Mickey traffic, convention business, general Orlando touristy traffic all together with DL's strong hand at MCO that they don't necessarily have to some of the other places).
 
sq452
Posts: 996
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:49 am

RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 134):
I remember poor little Vanguard gave CVG a go TWICE. The Cincinnati traveling public is to blame here however. They complained and complained about DL, their "monopoly" and high fares, yet they continued to patronize DL when LCC competition existed.

I remember Vanguard with their 732's, they used to park them at the A concourse and sometimes it was just the only plane you'd see parked there. It was tough refusing DL when they dropped their fares and offered SkyMiles perks...but yes, I do agree the Cincinnati public is to blame. Now the public is smarter and not as beholden to Delta.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 134):
True, however T3 is a lot less depressing now that all non-DL carriers have consolidated into Concourse A. Both trains are running again, and there's a bit more bustle to it.

Agree, concourse A is quite nice after the upgrades and improvements to it to consolidate everyone in to there.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 134):
According to the Brookings data, in 2011 it stood around 63 PDEW.

Many thanks for this. I assume it is probably up to about 80-90 now four years later. Just a guestimate.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
flyguy89
Posts: 3042
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: DL Significantly Downsizing CVG

Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 135):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 134):
Not necessarily. Both G4 and CVG have gone head to head with DL in a number of markets: Orlando, Tampa Bay, Southwest Florida, Ft. Lauderdale, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Las Vegas and Denver. I think the growth is more a demonstration of the pent up demand that exists in Cincinnati for even just reasonably priced flights.

Nitpicking, but ULCC competition with legacies is not complete overlap. DL running CMH-TPA for example is something I'd say is very much in direct competition with WN CMH-TPA in terms of the pax both are fighting for. But DL and G4 to Orlando aren't 100% the same group of pax IMHO.


In larger markets, I would agree, but with G4 and F9 coming in with 1.5 to 2.5 additional daily flights each to some of these destinations, stimulation will only go so far before you’re fighting for passengers, as evidenced by DL’s capitulation on the CVG-Orlando/Southwest Florida markets.

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