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yenne09
Topic Author
Posts: 682
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:02 am

Air Canada At Hamilton

Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:34 pm

It is surprising to see Air Canada being back in Hamilton (YHM) via it's Rouge subsidiary. They pull out of the market
a few years ago after serving the airport for awhile with CRJ. I flew first to Hamilton in 1981 on a Nordair flights, then in 1989 aboard Ontario Express and finally twice on JAZZ CRJ in 2008-09. Do you think Rouge will have flight going east
to Montreal and or Halifax eventually. I have always looking at the Hamilton development and I do not understand why
this international class airport with is 10,000' main runway has so much difficulties to find his niche considering the
congested situation at Pearson. Since the airport is directly connected to Highway 403, it shoul be easy to use for
people of the western part of the Golden Horshoe. Do we expect more development soon?
 
Vladex
Posts: 506
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:44 pm

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:09 pm

Does it have an express bus line to a GO train station?
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting yenne09 (Thread starter):
I have always looking at the Hamilton development and I do not understand why
this international class airport with is 10,000' main runway has so much difficulties to find his niche considering the
congested situation at Pearson.

If the runway length was indeed the most important factor for an airport to be successful, YHM would be. However, the airport served in 2013 less than half a million passengers. In the past, when WestJet expanded eastward, they started ops out of YHM, before moving to YYZ.

On the other end, YHM has found some sort of a niche in the cargo and mail business, with Purolator/Canada Post using it to transfer parcels and mail westward through their current contract with Kelowna and in about 40 days with CargoJet which, by the way, is expanding there.

A new cargo terminal is being built at YHM.
 
by738
Posts: 3123
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:33 pm

Remember the FlyGlobesoan hub at YHM sometimes with 3 transatlantic flights in one day...
 
q120
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:06 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:01 am

Hamilton is an airport that is very capable. Sadly its run by a bunch of incompetent hicks who have no idea how to run an airport. Which is why we hardly ever see any new activity. I wonder how much they paid Air Canada to start operating from there?

[Edited 2015-02-17 16:04:04]
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:05 am

Loved having Jazz at YHM, for the YUL connection to catch a flight to Europe! Much better than YYZ   hope AC plans to stay for a while and make it work... Yup to many airlines came and went, YHM has a place in the golden horseshoe  

Cheerios
 
fly_yhm
Posts: 1647
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:59 am

Its pretty simple for what ever reason trade port who manages the airport doesn't want to spend the money
(they have it as they are owned by Vantage Airport Group) to
expand the terminal. There is no reason why the Greater Toronto Hamilton Area can't have 2 significant airports.
Look at the Chicago area for example.

If you take from Toronto around to Niagara over to Kitchener Waterloo, That is a butt load of people.
Even Niagara Falls being the tourist destination that is should be enough to attract additional passengers.

It really makes no sense. Don't get me wrong, its nice to see the flight we do have. I remember when I was a kid
the only passenger flights were 4 daily U.S. Air express to KPIT with JS31s or Saab 340s.
Now we have WestJet Air Transat Sun Wing and Rouge Coming not to mention flights to Miami for the two weeks Cruise
departures.

Still there should be a lot more going on.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
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golfradio
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Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:35 pm

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:03 am

Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 6):

I have always wondered the same. There is a lot going for YHM; easy access to highways and rail and close proximity to GTA and Tri-cities. If they had pushed Metrolinx for better connectivity to GTA and up towards the tri-cities, they could have really developed it as a hub for LCCs with the llikes of TS, WG and maybe even WN and B6.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4910
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:09 am

How about Rouge to EWR? Connections to all the united destinations
 
N1120A
Posts: 26605
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:03 am

Quoting yenne09 (Thread starter):
I do not understand why
this international class airport with is 10,000' main runway has so much difficulties to find his niche considering the
congested situation at Pearson

I understand why - as difficult as yields are to get in Canada, it is even more difficult when you are looking at an airport that sees its best yield potential soaked up by YYZ, YTZ and YKF.

Quoting q120 (Reply 4):
Sadly its run by a bunch of incompetent hicks who have no idea how to run an airport.

Well, they certainly can't figure out how to start small and grow.

Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 6):
Even Niagara Falls being the tourist destination that is should be enough to attract additional passengers.

Why would you fly to YHM instead of heading to BUF, or even IAG on NK, instead? YHM is on the wrong side of Hamilton for Niagara Falls and has better competition on the US side.

Quoting fly_yhm (Reply 6):
If you take from Toronto around to Niagara over to Kitchener Waterloo, That is a butt load of people.

That "butt load" of people aren't flying from YHM for various reasons, and here are some of them:

1) People in Toronto would much rather fly out of YYZ or YTZ, instead of schlepping out to YHM and not saving money while doing it.

2) For those that might find YHM more convenient, like people in KW and Cambridge, YYZ isn't much (if at all) longer of a drive and they can use YKF now to YYC or ORD. There is even pressure from YXU, which now gets both ORD and EWR to go with the usual mix of charters, WestJet and its AC commuter flights to YYZ. There goes any chance of yields.

3) YHM is rather poorly located for the population. It is almost to Brantford, which means pulled away from population centers. You need to take country highways to get there efficiently from KW and Cambridge and you have to pass multiple airports to get there from Toronto.

4) In order to be competitive, airlines serving YHM would not have any economies of scale working for them, but would have to charge the same or less than out of airports like YYZ, where yields are, or BUF, where there is significant enough US domestic traffic to soak up some cheapies.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3047
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting yenne09 (Thread starter):
considering the
congested situation at Pearson.

Pearson is nowhere near full capacity. it's runways can easily handle another 50,000 movements a year, and the airport authority is in no apparent rush to build Pier G at its T1 facility.

That doesn't sound congested to me. YYZ has plenty of breathing room in its operations.

Quoting yenne09 (Thread starter):
this international class airport with is 10,000' main runway

By that definition, any airport with a 10,000 ft runway and a shack for a terminal should get mainline service? What about YYB, YBG or YVO ?

A market gets the flights it can support. Period. Runway length is not a factor. And btw, there is nothing"international" about the facilities at YHM.

The "build it and they will come" mentality doesn't work in aviation. It didn't work at YMX, it wont work at YHM, nor will it work at YYC, YWG, or any other airport building a shiny new terminal building or runway, thinking it will attract new carriers.

[Edited 2015-02-18 07:12:37]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
There is even pressure from YXU, which now gets both ORD and EWR to go with the usual mix of charters,

I guess you missed it that UA is discontinuing the EWR service as of April 22.

But my guess is that YYZ is too close and BUF is a great alternative to YYZ. The road links to YHM are not the greatest to get passengers there and there are very few facilities for the passenger and it is still very expensive to fly from.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
usa321
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:35 pm

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:56 pm

When is Rouge beginning YHM service, and to where? Seems I missed an announcement.
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3047
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting USA321 (Reply 12):

YYC in June

Filler

Filler
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
yenne09
Topic Author
Posts: 682
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:02 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 10):
And btw, there is nothing"international" about the facilities at YHM.

Why in the 80's Nationair was flying to London, Pan AM Express to New York and Nordair/City Express to Pittsbirgh
and in around 2008 Fly Globspan was flying to UK?
 
Thenoflyzone
Posts: 3047
Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 4:42 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:51 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 15):

exactly...a shoe box...if ever two transat flights landed at the same time, it would probably be pandemonium in the "international" baggage claim area. !
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:53 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 10):
there is nothing"international" about the facilities at YHM.

That map seems to contradict you. It's not huge but still...

http://flyhamilton.ca/passenger/the-airport/terminal-map/


And this is the airport's masterplan with a map of what's in store regarding facility extensions at page 7. For instance the Kelowna apron has already been completed.

http://flyhamilton.ca/wp-content/upl.../2012/12/2010_hia_master_plan_.pdf
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:59 am

YHM is workable...and it suited WS very well. Sure there were some hick ups. Some airlines screwed YHM over but i guess YYZ had the same issues   To me it seems like YHM is always a step behind what needs to be done... Good people there... not an easy task to bring YHM up to task. The government sure gave Trade Port a piece of work... politics at its best. I enjoyed every flight out of YHM 100% better than YYZ  . Wish AC will bring some Q400 into YHM and expand...

cheerios
 
N1120A
Posts: 26605
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:02 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 11):
I guess you missed it that UA is discontinuing the EWR service as of April 22.

I did miss that. Wow, that lasted like a week.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 11):

But my guess is that YYZ is too close and BUF is a great alternative to YYZ

Well, BUF isn't a great alternative - it is a cheap one.

Quoting brilondon (Reply 11):
The road links to YHM are not the greatest to get passengers there and there are very few facilities for the passenger and it is still very expensive to fly from.

Yeah, it is just not idea for the population centers. Its not going to benefit from local traffic, as YYZ's variety and YKF's location soak up basically all of the yield. Its not going to benefit from discount traffic, because BUF, while not as cheap as 3 years ago, is the cheap option and not that much farther in the grand scheme of things. Its left with convenience traffic, which isn't going to support any kind of serious expansion. YHM's best chance was if WestJet kept their Toronto operations there, and that just wasn't going to happen.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
SpaceshipDC10
Posts: 7054
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:12 am

Quoting USA321 (Reply 12):
When is Rouge beginning YHM service, and to where? Seems I missed an announcement.
Air Canada Rouge Expands To Abbotsford And Hamilton (by Noise Feb 5 2015 in Civil Aviation)

As for network increase out of YHM, there are the plans of Jetlines...

Anticipated Canada Jetlines Route Network (by CYQL Feb 10 2015 in Civil Aviation)


...unless they become the next VistaJet:

"VistaJet entered the eastern Canada market in April 1997 as a low-cost carrier, but ceased operations in September 1997. The company planned to become a national carrier offering value conscious leisure and business travellers the convenience of flying at a rate comparable to driving or taking the train.The airline operated services to Ottawa, Toronto and Windsor."
 
drgmobile
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

RE: Air Canada At Hamilton

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:10 pm

Looking at Rouge, I think part of its value proposition is that it allows AC to retain a segment of its own loyal customer base that it would otherwise lose to competitors. It's a choice somewhere between the Transats and Sunwings and its own full service carrier. So while the inflight product may be closer to a leisure carrier, AC can continue to serve its loyal customers in ways they're familiar with through its Maple Leaf lounges at its main Canadian airports, Aeroplan miles and Altitude qualifying status. As an elite level AC traveller, I know I find that quite appealing.

I note that while the recently announced domestic services may include service to a secondary airport, the flights from secondary airports all so far go to an airport that's a major AC hub or focus city (i.e., the Abbotsford flight goes to Toronto Pearson, the Hamilton flight to Calgary).

My sense is that AC has revealed enough of its strategy with Rouge to draw some conclusions on what it will and will not do with it.

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