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n7371f
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DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:22 am

I've heard from a few contacts in DL FlightOps that the 717 fleet is going to increase with additional purchases.

I'm being told 92 717's on property eventually. The used a/c are coming from Turkmenistan and SAS/Blue 1. I believe Turkmen parked one or two 717's late last year and SAS is looking at removing the sub-fleet.

This would make sense with the additional draw down of CRJ flying and the near-capped flying for Connection on CR9's and E75's.

Then again, Delta is big into used purchases for parting out.

[Edited 2015-02-18 19:24:59]
 
727LOVER
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:26 am

I had wondered, even in thought about starting a thread, if DL was going to MD-90 the 717. 
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DeltaB717
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:00 am

Quoting n7371f (Thread starter):
Turkmenistan and SAS/Blue 1

Concensus is that EZ-A101 is parked, but with little hard evidence. Volotea is taking 4 of the 9 SAS/Blue1 aircraft so it would only be the other 5 that DL would be taking. I'd see them taking all 7 of Turkmenistan's eventually, though.

Quoting n7371f (Thread starter):
Then again, Delta is big into used purchases for parting out.

I don't see them parting out 717s, too new. Unless that was their plan with the 7 from T5.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 1):
DL was going to MD-90 the 717

My    is on this!
 
MavyWavyATR
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting n7371f (Thread starter):
I'm being told 92 717's on property eventually.

Oh great...    I clearly thought for sure they had enough frames already.

Quoting n7371f (Thread starter):
SAS/Blue 1
Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 2):
so it would only be the other 5 that DL would be taking.

I honestly had my bets on those 5 frames going to HA. To be honest (and not to insult anyone), HA would have better use of them instead of DL in terms of load factors and mission.
 
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:41 am

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 3):
Oh great...    I clearly thought for sure they had enough frames already.

You make it sound like it's a bad thing that Delta is expanding their fleet...
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bunumuring
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:34 am

Don't forget that Qantas is in this game as well, with the recently expanded QantasLink fleet of 717s...
The resources boom may be over, so some of these 717s may become surplus soon. I reckon however, that QF will keep them for other purposes such as replacing Network's Fokker 100s and maybe expanded 717 services out of Canberra.
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Transpac787
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 3):
To be honest (and not to insult anyone), HA would have better use of them instead of DL in terms of load factors and mission.

I'm curious how you reached this conjecture.

717's at HA seem to average about 12 frequencies per day. Sometimes more, sometimes less. By the by, if you plan for 12 frequencies across 5 new planes.... do you really think HA could reasonably add sixty (60) new flights - every day - into their inter-island network?!

[Edited 2015-02-18 21:47:26]
 
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:02 am

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 3):
I honestly had my bets on those 5 frames going to HA. To be honest (and not to insult anyone), HA would have better use of them instead of DL in terms of load factors and mission.

Without knowing how/where DL plans to use these frames, even the most creative "car dealer math" in the World can't support your supposition...
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surfdog75
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:04 am

I think they need more aircraft for a new west coast 717 base.
 
Beatyair
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:12 am

It would be better if Delta bought the C-Series instead.
 
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:29 am

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 6):
717's at HA seem to average about 12 frequencies per day. Sometimes more, sometimes less. By the by, if you plan for 12 frequencies across 5 new planes.... do you really think HA could reasonably add sixty (60) new flights - every day - into their inter-island network?!

Without doing any math--HA has next to no competition interisland, and HA is making money in spite of several empty longhaul Asian routes. Interisland must be printing money, so a few extra shells may be warranted.
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qf2220
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:35 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 5):

Does anyone know what QF would prefer? If they were to eliminate one of the fleets (Fokker 100 vs 717), do we know what one would go?

It sounds like DL would be a ready buyer if they got rid of the 717s, who might be interested in the Fokkers if they went?
 
migair54
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:49 am

So the B717 is much more popular after the line is close than when it was brand new, it´s an interesting case, why DL didn´t order many of them when they were in production?? Volotea was not around, but they seem to be doing great with them, without making too much noise they are doing a good job and slowly getting bigger.

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 9):
It would be better if Delta bought the C-Series instead.

Yes, but maybe in the future, but given how long DL keep the planes, it will be hard for Bombardier to pitch that one into DL fleet.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 6):
I'm curious how you reached this conjecture.

717's at HA seem to average about 12 frequencies per day. Sometimes more, sometimes less. By the by, if you plan for 12 frequencies across 5 new planes.... do you really think HA could reasonably add sixty (60) new flights - every day - into their inter-island network?!

HA has no need for 5 new planes, that´s way too much for the network.

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 3):
I honestly had my bets on those 5 frames going to HA. To be honest (and not to insult anyone), HA would have better use of them instead of DL in terms of load factors and mission.

Actually DL has many routes were this plane could fit perfectly, the other day I flew one of this planes from XNA to ATL and the plane is great and the interior was in excellent condition, this kind of flight are perfect for the B717, and I was very surprise to see how many flights they have daily into XNA and when I asked they told me they are very full usually.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:07 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
So the B717 is much more popular after the line is close than when it was brand new, it´s an interesting case, why DL didn´t order many of them when they were in production??

They didn't order any; these were all secondhand birds for DL.
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:20 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
So the B717 is much more popular after the line is close than when it was brand new, it´s an interesting case, why DL didn´t order many of them when they were in production??

It's only "popular" because the ownership costs are near zero. The inferior operating economics mean they're currently worth little to nothing, balancing the costs out to where they may be potentially a wise acquisition. No chance would a carrier buy them brand new these days.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:53 am

While they are very beatiful birds to look at ( especailly ths 80s IMHO) ,it is too long ago that I was flying them on AZ, and I do not remember how they were comfort-wise.
The DC9 (and family) are almost completely disappeared in central EU, so I have no way to compare now.
I suspect that there is no match with newer aircrafts like the SSJ100 , Emb90, or the coming Cseries.
OK , I guess the rearmost window seats will be horribly noisy, but what about the other Y seats? Are they usually 3+2?
Is there place for a standard trolley? Can you compare them with those rattling shaks F100 of OS and KLM?
And BTW aren't them too noisy and polluting in general to comply with airport environmental rules in US?
How is their safety record in terms of accidents the US (considering theat they would be lovely well mantained, but that they woud probably lack the latest avionics features like GPS-TAWS and so on)?
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migair54
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:19 am

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
OK , I guess the rearmost window seats will be horribly noisy, but what about the other Y seats? Are they usually 3+2?
Is there place for a standard trolley? Can you compare them with those rattling shaks F100 of OS and KLM?
And BTW aren't them too noisy and polluting in general to comply with airport environmental rules in US?
How is their safety record in terms of accidents the US (considering theat they would be lovely well mantained, but that they woud probably lack the latest avionics features like GPS-TAWS and so on)?

The B717 is a very modern aircraft, exterior is similar to a DC9 or Md but it´s a much newer technology. actually my 2 flights with Delta were on B717 and Md-88 and the interior is very similar, only difference is that the 3-2 configuration is the opposite sides, 3-2 and 2-3 we could say.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 13):
They didn't order any; these were all secondhand birds for DL.

I know, that why i said it´s a very weird case. they didn´t order any but they have like 50 in operation, so it´s a big fleet.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
It's only "popular" because the ownership costs are near zero. The inferior operating economics mean they're currently worth little to nothing, balancing the costs out to where they may be potentially a wise acquisition. No chance would a carrier buy them brand new these days.

yes, they found a gold mine in them, and if they can get many more they will be happy.

By the way, where are the AirTran planes??? I see in internet they are stored.
 
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:09 am

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 3):
I honestly had my bets on those 5 frames going to HA. To be honest (and not to insult anyone), HA would have better use of them instead of DL in terms of load factors and mission.

IIRC, HA bought up a couple extra frames a year or two ago, and those were to be stored for later use, or used to lessen the amount of cycles each frame operates each day.

I know what you mean though, HA has a very specific need for an aircraft that can take a dozen cycles a day, with little cool down time for the engines aloft or on the ground.

While DL has more flexibility for the aircraft types they can use in many markets. The bottom line is, there are only a few carriers who can truly benefit from what the 717 can do, HA & DL are two of those carriers.

On a personal note, if it were not for my undying loyalty to Chester I'd likely be taking DL 717s to LA this summer.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 6):
717's at HA seem to average about 12 frequencies per day. Sometimes more, sometimes less. By the by, if you plan for 12 frequencies across 5 new planes.... do you really think HA could reasonably add sixty (60) new flights - every day - into their inter-island network?!

I wouldn't be real surprised if HA was looking for a few frames, as there really is no suitable current replacement for their very specific mission, I'd say HA will use the 717 as long as the DC-9s. HA would likely store for future use.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Interisland must be printing money,

I don't think any carrier has printed money on Inter - Island flights, maybe more recently as fuel is less expensive, but still more spendy in Hawaii than elsewhere.

As fares are about $100 a segment on HA as an average, I'm sure HA makes more money now, as they have not had a real competitor since AQ.

But as HA flies to all the inhabited islands Mainline & Ohana & I'd venture to say HA garners about 85% of the entire Inter-Island traffic, but I bet they still make less than 20% of their revenue from Inter Island flying.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
HA has no need for 5 new planes, that´s way too much for the network.

If they store them for future use, they do. HA has already said they are going to be flying the 717s well into the next decade, as the 717 is perfect for short flight, with short turn arounds.

Whatever HA will want in the future for a 717 replacement will ikely need to be similar in size & ability to the 717, bigger jets can't make those quick turns. HA has not shown any real interest in anything currently oin the market.

The fairly large number of cycles those planes accrue in a day will mean they'll be ready for retirement before a real adequate replacement is available. HA has already publicly said even the largest current RJs don't have the cargo capacity for multiple large items like surfboards.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
Actually DL has many routes were this plane could fit perfectly,

All over their domestic network. The 717 is great for shorter missions, there are plenty on the DL dartboard.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
t's only "popular" because the ownership costs are near zero. The inferior operating economics mean they're currently worth little to nothing, balancing the costs out to where they may be potentially a wise acquisition. No chance would a carrier buy them brand new these days.

Yet according to HA there is no comparable replacement aircraft, that is currently in production that they can look to in the future for the mission their 717s accomplish today.
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:25 am

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
I suspect that there is no match with newer aircrafts like the SSJ100 , Emb90, or the coming Cseries.

The 717 is a very comfortable aircraft, compared to the regional jets. Different class of airplane.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
OK , I guess the rearmost window seats will be horribly noisy, but what about the other Y seats? Are they usually 3+2?

The seats forward are extremely quiet, on account of the 717 having modern BMW/RR 715 engines. Even the ones in the back aren't so bad.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
Can you compare them with those rattling shaks F100 of OS and KLM?

I love the Fokkers, but the 717 is a nicer ride.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
And BTW aren't them too noisy and polluting in general to comply with airport environmental rules in US?

Not at all; the engines are arguable more modern than the IAE V2500 which powered the MD-90 and A320.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
How is their safety record in terms of accidents the US

Zero accidents.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
but that they woud probably lack the latest avionics features like GPS-TAWS and so on)?

I am unaware of any passenger airliner in this nation that lacks GPS.... And TAWS is pretty standard issue as well.
 
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Aquila3
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:45 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 18):

I see that the 717 is then another animal than the DCs. A modern aircraft indeed. Probably that was the "Boeing hand" on it that made the difference. Quite understandable that Boeing had a lot of newer technology ready available.
I wonder why then , being so modern and efficient while keeping the robust and durable DC9 design, it did not sell so much. Possibly Boeing protecting their other design on the lower end? I mean was it worth to cancel the 717 only to protect the 736? Not so sure it was the right decision, with hindsight, of course.
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cougar15
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:11 am

Quoting n7371f (Thread starter):
DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

so here we go again, more semi vintage Metal for the US consumer, instead of following Sir Tim Clark´s advise & upping your game & passenger experience , instead of moaning. Guess this lot will let the average fleet Age move from 16.6 years to 16.8?
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81819
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:56 am

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 20):
so here we go again, more semi vintage Metal for the US consumer, instead of following Sir Tim Clark´s advise & upping your game & passenger experience , instead of moaning. Guess this lot will let the average fleet Age move from 16.6 years to 16.8?
Go Delta, go Dick Anderson!

It's fairly easy to order new aircraft when you are in growth mode. It is a lot harder to order new aircraft when you operate in a mature/saturated market.

I think it is a mistake to look at the ME3 carriers and simply assume all airlines can do as they do. If all airlines did they wouldn't last too long and they would probably take the ME3 carriers to the brink of extinction at the same time!

Delta have a business model that seems to be working very well!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:13 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
As fares are about $100 a segment on HA as an average,

HNLOGG is 100 miles, for a yield of $1.00/mile. Not many places you can find a yield that high...

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
I bet they still make less than 20% of their revenue from Inter Island flying.

Revenue sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if if were the reverse for profits.
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United_fan
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:26 pm

I remember going through EZA-104 in LGB before it was delivered in 2004. Seems like forever ago.
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cjg225
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
Actually DL has many routes were this plane could fit perfectly, the other day I flew one of this planes from XNA to ATL and the plane is great and the interior was in excellent condition, this kind of flight are perfect for the B717, and I was very surprise to see how many flights they have daily into XNA and when I asked they told me they are very full usually.

Not surprised at all. Lots of corporate traffic for Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart's suppliers, and lots of other companies with a presence there. Add in a major university and the family for all of the above plus random local residents and you've got a surprisingly busy regional airport.

You're right that the 717 is a perfect aircraft for routes from XNA to ATL and DTW, though.
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fjnovak1
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:45 pm

DTW got the CR7 from XNA last time DL flew the route, and DL cancelled it, so would imagine the 717 would be too much airplane for that route...
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
So the B717 is much more popular after the line is close than when it was brand new, it´s an interesting case, why DL didn´t order many of them when they were in production??

It's only "popular" because the ownership costs are near zero. The inferior operating economics mean they're currently worth little to nothing, balancing the costs out to where they may be potentially a wise acquisition. No chance would a carrier buy them brand new these days.

That's absolutely ridiculous. The 717 is a modern aircraft and its fuel burn is on par with all current competitors. Add in low ownership costs and the 717 is a VERY attractive machine from a cost standpoint.
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cjg225
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting fjnovak1 (Reply 25):
DTW got the CR7 from XNA last time DL flew the route, and DL cancelled it, so would imagine the 717 would be too much airplane for that route...

I didn't know they cancelled that route. Interesting. When did they do that? I last flew it in 2013, admittedly.
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DTWPurserBoy
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
The B717 is a very modern aircraft, exterior is similar to a DC9 or Md but it´s a much newer technology. actually my 2 flights with Delta were on B717 and Md-88 and the interior is very similar, only difference is that the 3-2 configuration is the opposite sides, 3-2 and 2-3 we could say.

Most of the original DL MD-88 fleet came delivered with the "reverse" 2-3 instead of the 3-2 on the DC-9. This was done, so I was told ,to accommodate the extra depth space needed for the aft galley. Now that they have all been removed I guess they were able to squeeze a few extra seats in where the galley was originally placed.

Flight attendants hate it because you have to crawl over passengers to get to the door to arm/disarm the evac slide at door 2L.
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93Sierra
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:17 pm

FWIW, I flew into Goodyear (GYR) and between the taxi into transit and back to Rwy 03, I counted either 23 or 25 AirTran 717s parked furthest to the Southwest. Is GYR doing the conversions or are they just being stored there until WN refurbs and hands them over to DL?
 
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coronado
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
By the way, where are the AirTran planes??? I see in internet they are stored.

At Dec 31 2014 AirTran (or actually we should say Southwest) parked the remaining 36 717's and they are being converted over to Delta configurations at the rate of about 3 per month. By year end they will all be active in the Delta fleet, bring the number up to 88 operational 717's.

These ''rumours'' of 5 additional from Blue 1 (SAS Group) and perhaps 6 from Turkmenestan (some/all of these may just be for parts) would bring 717 fleet to at least 93 active ships. Presumably they will be put in the queue for conversion to Delta specs, and I would guess that Delta will use the same contractor that Southwest is using for the conversion of the AirTran fleet. Would certainly be cost effective! I have been speculating that Delta might try and increase the training courses for new hire pilots so as to complete more than the 24 new 717 crews (24 CA and 24 FO) needed to support the addition of 3 717's to the active fleet each month, so as to have all the former AirTran 717's operational by Sept 2015 instead of Dec 2015.
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atlengineer
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 29):
FWIW, I flew into Goodyear (GYR) and between the taxi into transit and back to Rwy 03, I counted either 23 or 25 AirTran 717s parked furthest to the Southwest. Is GYR doing the conversions or are they just being stored there until WN refurbs and hands them over to DL?

Sounds about right. The original agreement with WN was to deliver 3 aircraft converted to DL specs per month thru the end of 2015 and I think they are holding to that schedule. So, 10 more months at 3 aircraft per month is 30 aircraft, minus 5 or so in conversion makes sense.

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MSPNWA
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:05 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
By the way, where are the AirTran planes??? I see in internet they are stored.

The rest are in storage awaiting conversion into the DL fleet. DL can't just snap their fingers and add dozens of planes in one day.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 15):
I guess the rearmost window seats will be horribly noisy

They're not bad at all. Obviously you can hear the engine, but it's not bothersome like with the older engines.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
Yet according to HA there is no comparable replacement aircraft, that is currently in production that they can look to in the future for the mission their 717s accomplish today.

HA has a very unique performance requirement that limits their choices. I really wasn't including them when it comes to economic reasons for the 717.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
Revenue sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if if were the reverse for profits.

Yep. 5-6 years ago I flew inter-island for like $40. They have to making a healthy margin now.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 26):
That's absolutely ridiculous. The 717 is a modern aircraft and its fuel burn is on par with all current competitors. Add in low ownership costs and the 717 is a VERY attractive machine from a cost standpoint.

Seems crazy, but it's true. The DOT data on operating costs show the inferiority of the 717. It isn't way behind, but it's just not quite as good. And it's just common sense too. Airlines wouldn't be shedding their current 717s if they were as good or better than the alternatives. For WN a 733 was more economical to operate. What DL is doing is highly questionable. They are either the only airline smart enough to figure it out, or they're the only airline that unwise. Place your bets.
 
Beatyair
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:27 pm

There were only a 158 built, is Delta trying to get them all?
The must miss the the DC-9's
 
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting n7371f (Thread starter):
Then again, Delta is big into used purchases for parting out.

All 717s produced are still flying (except the prototype), so I'm guessing they won't be chopped up. Especially not the SAS ones, which most likely are the best maintained in the world.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 1):
I had wondered, even in thought about starting a thread, if DL was going to MD-90 the 717. 

What do you mean? Downgrading the cockpit to MD-88/MD-90 type? It would increase commonality for sure, since the only aircraft the MD-95 shares cockpit commonality with is the MD-11.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):

So the B717 is much more popular after the line is close than when it was brand new, it´s an interesting case, why DL didn´t order many of them when they were in production?? Volotea was not around, but they seem to be doing great with them, without making too much noise they are doing a good job and slowly getting bigger.

The MD-95 was a great aircraft back then, and it still is. But Boeing didnt't want to produce both the MD-95 and the 736.. and orders were lacking after it was the only aircraft in the family still in production after the merger.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
It's only "popular" because the ownership costs are near zero. The inferior operating economics mean they're currently worth little to nothing, balancing the costs out to where they may be potentially a wise acquisition. No chance would a carrier buy them brand new these days.

Of course it can't compete with the likes of E190 or SSJ or CS100. But the operating economics are actually pretty good (Superior is the word Delta used),in addition to the fact that they're very cheap and they feel like a mainline aircraft.. which they are.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 275
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
Seems crazy, but it's true. The DOT data on operating costs show the inferiority of the 717. It isn't way behind, but it's just not quite as good. And it's just common sense too. Airlines wouldn't be shedding their current 717s if they were as good or better than the alternatives. For WN a 733 was more economical to operate. What DL is doing is highly questionable. They are either the only airline smart enough to figure it out, or they're the only airline that unwise. Place your bets.

Of course a bigger airplane as a lower CASM than a smaller one. You just have to be able to fill it up with passengers who pay the right price. That's the problem. Dilution of yield. The 717's DL received were almost given to them by SWA and are a perfect aircraft for many DL routes. Hence, they're looking for more to expand the basing possibilities.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
Seems crazy, but it's true. The DOT data on operating costs show the inferiority of the 717. It isn't way behind, but it's just not quite as good. And it's just common sense too. Airlines wouldn't be shedding their current 717s if they were as good or better than the alternatives. For WN a 733 was more economical to operate. What DL is doing is highly questionable. They are either the only airline smart enough to figure it out, or they're the only airline that unwise. Place your bets.

The reason airlines are phasing them out, is because it's costly to operate a small sub-fleet of an aircraft type. What Delta is doing is creating a big fleet of nearly 100 frames, commonality costs go down. And they also already operate a large amount of MD aircraft with some commonality to the MD-95. The airlines that are phasing them out don't. I know where I'm placing my bets.
 
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TheRedBaron
Posts: 3276
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 18):
The 717 is a very comfortable aircraft, compared to the regional jets. Different class of airplane.

Agree I flew them with Mexicana Click , and they were fantastic.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 18):
The seats forward are extremely quiet, on account of the 717 having modern BMW/RR 715 engines. Even the ones in the back aren't so bad.

Up front is dead quiet.... the 717 is the perfect aircraft for Mexico hot and high airports and the kind of loads and demand we have as a market.

Even if newer metal is more efficient, the feel of the cabin is more spacious than smaller jets (only the SSJ has the same feel)

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
fjnovak1
Posts: 583
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 27):
I didn't know they cancelled that route. Interesting. When did they do that? I last flew it in 2013, admittedly.
Quoting cjg225 (Reply 27):

I think the DTW-XNA flight got axed last September. Originally slated as a seasonal cancellation but as of now it's not slated to be returning. Amazing considering that they lost MEM as a connecting point and reduced MSP from 3x to 2x. At one point before the merger NW flew DTW-XNA 3x daily, and DL flew it 2x daily after the merger was completed, with morning and evening options in each direction IIRC. All those flights were either the ERJ145 or the 50-seat CRJ.
Go Blue!!
 
bmacleod
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:28 pm

I guess this shuts the door on hopes of DL ordering the CRJ1000.

Will Delta Order CRJ1000'S? (by N27903 Feb 15 2015 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2015-02-19 09:29:03]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
n471wn
Posts: 1717
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
By the way, where are the AirTran planes??? I see in internet they are stored.

Delta now has 54 717's in service and the other 34 are mostly at Goodyear with those that are not in conversion at the rate of 3 per month
 
2175301
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 19):
I see that the 717 is then another animal than the DCs. A modern aircraft indeed. Probably that was the "Boeing hand" on it that made the difference. Quite understandable that Boeing had a lot of newer technology ready available.

Not true at all. The engine choice and avionics were already in place when Boeing purchased McDonald Douglas. This was relabeled with a Boeing number because production of customer delivered aircraft had not yet started. Otherwise it is my understanding is that it would have been known as the MD-95.

McDonald Douglass designed a very competitive modern plane.

Boeing did get to put their number and nameplate on it and perhaps tweaked the interior a bit.


Have a great day,
 
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aloha73g
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
HA has no need for 5 new planes, that´s way too much for the network.

They certainly don't!! They needed additional frames when AQ shut down, and they got them from AirTran.

The interisland market is stable or shrinking slightly--NOT growing--due to more direct flights to neighbor islands from the mainland and possibly Japan (HA's HND-KOA). The interisland market peaked in the mid to late 1990s.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3734
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:43 pm

Quoting MavyWavyATR (Reply 3):
I honestly had my bets on those 5 frames going to HA. To be honest (and not to insult anyone), HA would have better use of them instead of DL in terms of load factors and mission.

While HAL is interested in a couple more frames, it has to be at the right price. Five would be too many to add to the fleet of 18.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
Without doing any math--HA has next to no competition interisland, and HA is making money in spite of several empty longhaul Asian routes. Interisland must be printing money, so a few extra shells may be warranted.

There you go again. The international network was retooled in the first half of 2014 and the numbers are improving. "Several empty long haul Asian routes" is a bit of a stretch, especially with no data to support your claim. That said, the neighbor island and domestic parts to the business are indeed doing well. HAL would like a a couple more 717s to provide lift during the peak.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 14):
It's only "popular" because the ownership costs are near zero. The inferior operating economics mean they're currently worth little to nothing, balancing the costs out to where they may be potentially a wise acquisition. No chance would a carrier buy them brand new these days.

Actually, the prices for second hand 717s are rising rapidly. Before DL got into the picture and there were available frames sitting around from Mexicana Clik and Midwest. Those have all been snapped up (including 3 by HAL) and with little supply and a newly created demand, they're not as cheap as they used to be.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
IIRC, HA bought up a couple extra frames a year or two ago, and those were to be stored for later use, or used to lessen the amount of cycles each frame operates each day.

HAL leased 3 more in the late 2011 early 2012 timeframe. Those planes aren't stored, but are indeed in active service.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
As fares are about $100 a segment on HA as an average,

HNLOGG is 100 miles, for a yield of $1.00/mile. Not many places you can find a yield that high...

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
I bet they still make less than 20% of their revenue from Inter Island flying.

Revenue sure, but it wouldn't surprise me if if were the reverse for profits.

The company doesn't breakout profits, but revenues are generated roughly by 25% International, 25% Neighbor Island and 50% North America. Costs are high for HAL on the neighbor island segments. The same fixed costs exist for the 20 minute flight to OGG or the 13 hour flight to PEK. That 717, it's lower capacity and shorter stage length has a minimal opportunity to spread those costs, compared to any of the long hauls. I'd venture to guess that while profitable, the neighbor island part of the business is producing small yields, when compared to the North America side of the house and perhaps even International.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5539
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 32):
What DL is doing is highly questionable. They are either the only airline smart enough to figure it out, or they're the only airline that unwise. Place your bets.

DL's strategy has already worked quite well. The 717 is perfect for many short-mid range flights where the RJ's are too small, but the 737/A320 are too big/heavy. There's a reason why DL is outperforming UA and having a more optimal domestic fleet is part of that. Even UA has admitted they desperately need more small narrowbody lift, but UA can't afford the CAPEX to buy anything new beyond the 739's they've already ordered.

If anything is questionable, it's UA's strategy to rely on high CASM RJ's to be the backbone of the domestic fleet for the foreseeable future.
 
alfa164
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 9):
It would be better if Delta bought the C-Series instead.

Says someone from Canada....   

DL's seems determined to buy "tried and true" aircraft, whether they be used or new frames. With the C -series still seemingly in the (constant?) embryonic stage, the economics and availability of these 717's, and the numbers they already have, this makes perfect sense from a fleet standpoint.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1386
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:58 pm

As long as the price is right, Delta will acquire 717s. They will not pay market rate if they feel it is too high. Northwest Airlines philosophy, which is now part of Delta, was to look for the best deals available. Northwest NEVER acquired a DC-9 new. They were the largest DC-9 operator, while not operating any MD-80 other than the eight they disposed of which came from the merger with Republic. The 717 is a modern up to date DC-9-30 or 40. Delta acquired AirTrans 717s because Southwest wanted to get rid of them desperately. Southwest made it worth while to Delta to sublease their 717s with the leaseholders approval. It could have been a MAJOR undertaking for Southwest to dispose of the 717s in a piece meal matter. Delta got a deal they could not turn down. Delta has acquired other used aircraft and I am sure that "the price was right." Delta Air Lines got 88 717s for a song.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
dlflynhayn
Posts: 307
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:55 pm

RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:04 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22):
HNLOGG is 100 miles, for a yield of $1.00/mile. Not many places you can find a yield that high...

Heck ive paid more a few times just from OGG-KOA...HA Should be making a killing on that route,i think i will try Mokulele next time to save a few bucks...
 
warren747sp
Posts: 988
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:19 pm

Why not the MD-90s as well?
747SP
 
Brewfangrb
Posts: 292
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RE: DL May Have Just Bought More 717's

Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:21 pm

Uncooperative posting.

[Edited 2015-02-19 12:25:15]

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