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Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:24 am

Please continue the discussion here.

Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9/11 (by blueflyer Feb 16 2015 in Civil Aviation)

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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:50 am

Well, this talk of the ME3 coming into any US airport with a 10,000-foot runway as suggested by DL execs does actually have limits: small markets that see all or mostly RJs with the exception of G4 flights to leisure cities, many without an FIS. This is why AA's strategy of codesharing and partnering with both QR and EY from their hubs makes much more sense than DL trying to force the DOT and FAA to put restrictions on the ME3 in the same way that LH was successfully able to convince Germany to restrict EK.

And the reason why is very simple: basic microeconomics. Unless a large RJ with enough range to fly Midwest/East Coast-DXB/AUH/DOH is developed, even if it was launched by Bombardier or EMBRAER, small markets to DXB/AUH/DOH wouldn't make a penny. And even if the ME3 are heavily subsidized like DL suggests they are, there is no way one of these small markets can support even a 3x weekly 789 unless they plan on losing and/or subsidizing losses in the millions of dollars each year.

Take my home airport, FWA. Yes, FWA has an 11,981-foot runway. But FWA also has a tiny market to the markets served via ME3 connections, gates that max out at a 752, and (an issue for EK and QR, but not EY) no FIS yet. And even if one does need access to the ME3, they can always connect in ORD or PHL - which is why AA's strategy of codesharing is the superior one to DL's strategy of stonewalling.

Yes, I find DL's comments to be offensive, as the two countries where the ME3 operate are also two of our biggest anti-terrorism allies in the Middle East. But I find DL's strategy of trying to block, rather than adapt to competition, just as offensive. And for those of us who want more protectionist strategies in American aviation, I have three words to say: "Remember Bermuda II".
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:01 am

http://skift.com/2015/02/18/emirates...-deltas-open-skies-and-911-claims/

“Richard was reacting to claims the gulf carriers have been making that US airlines received subsidies in the form of payments from the US government after the 9/11 attacks and the bankruptcy proceedings that resulted. He didn’t mean to suggest the gulf carriers or their governments are linked to the 9/11 terrorists. We apologize if anyone was offended.”
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:04 am

Catiii,
Just because the DOJ doesn't think its anti-competitive to allow 6 legacy carriers to become 3 does not mean that it is true.

It just shows that political lobbying is something which produces terrible outcomes for consumers.

You gloat about lowest ever domestic fares in the USA.

Big deal. Long-haul fares on routes like the Kangaroo Route are also at historically low levels. With proper service levels.

Dubai to Athens is shorter than Miami to Los Angeles.

But includes food, a 50 pound bag, beverages and IFE.

The bottom line is that US carriers have been allowed to merge their way to profitability, and charge ludicrous fees for what the ME3 include on similar sector lengths.

And whereas here in Australia any foreign carrier can compete on domestic routes, you use protectionism to prevent that.

Because you and I both know exactly what would happen. The ME3 would include food, beverages and a checked bag on domestic flights but would match your legacy carriers on price. Probably even undercut them.

And that introduction of genuine competition would destroy your three low-quality legacy carriers. They would be out of business almost overnight.
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:45 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
And that introduction of genuine competition would destroy your three low-quality legacy carriers. They would be out of business almost overnight.

And, I assume, that you would be overjoyed to see thousands upon thousands of airline workers in the U.S., out of work? Why am I not surprised?


BTW, are U.S. or foreign carriers allowed to operate within Australia.....like from Sydney to Perth, for example?

[Edited 2015-02-18 22:50:42]
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:07 am

From previous thread:

Quoting mayor:
Doesn't fit the definition of collusion, at all.

Another one that has missed DL's order book, obviously. Just because DL doesn't invest whenever another shiny new plane comes along doesn't mean that they don't invest at all.

Doesn't fit the definition? Do the carriers of the JV decide together on a price? Yes. Has this caused the average price to go up? Yes. And this is not collusion?

Not going to go into all their fleet choices, but having a fleet of 16.6 years of age and you only have 78 wide-body aircraft on order and you have 159 in your fleet seems odd. Sometimes having the shiny new plane helps your product...but it seems everyone is fine with what they get from Delta.

And there comes the apology...and not from Richard Anderson but Delta. If he feels he was wrong he should apologize himself, not let the company send out a statement.
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:13 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
Just because the DOJ doesn't think its anti-competitive to allow 6 legacy carriers to become 3 does not mean that it is true.

To be fair: nor does constant complaining to that effect by amateur observers, mean that it was. It goes both ways.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
And that introduction of genuine competition would destroy your three low-quality legacy carriers. They would be out of business almost overnight.

Only because any such "competition" would just come in, cherry-pick the highest yielding routes and transcons, and operate them with cheaper labor pools; while not touching any of the rest.

So yeah, if one believes that the only air routes in the country worth having are California to the northeast and Florida, then hey, by all means, that'd be their dream scenario.

But pretty sure that no one is under the delusion that the likes of EK or BA or SQ or anyone else, is going to be flying between small southern, midwestern, or mid-mountain destinations, to... well... anywhere. And certainly not with lie-flats on 400seat widebodies, or whatever other inanities that armchair fanboys here think are the greatest thing ever.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:16 am

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 5):
And this is not collusion?

You do realize that that's what anti-trust immunity (the basis of the "j/v") is for, do you not?

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 5):
in your fleet seems odd

To who?

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 5):
Sometimes having the shiny new plane helps your product

Since when?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 7):
You do realize that that's what anti-trust immunity (the basis of the "j/v") is for, do you not?

Ah, so the antitrust immunity stops the collusion from being illegal. You do realise who suffers from this? The consumer is the one that pays the price. The one who was supposed to benefit is the one paying the higher price. For Americans who are proud of Open Skies and competition to lower fares some on here are arguing very hard that higher prices and price fixing is fine with them, as long as it is not illegal.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 7):
To who?

It is odd to me, although I confess I am not versed in their long-haul strategy. I see they have a fleet of over 700 aircraft. The majority if these are single aisle. But even with the ageing fleet they only have 223 aircraft on order. I guess this means they will either have a huge order in the future, or they are going to have a fleet that is even older in a few years time.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 7):
Since when?

Since most airlines put in a new product on their new fleets. If you don't renew your aircraft the incentive might not be there to update and change your product.

Edited: grammar.

[Edited 2015-02-19 00:41:20]
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:29 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
And that introduction of genuine competition would destroy your three low-quality legacy carriers. They would be out of business almost overnight.

And, I assume, that you would be overjoyed to see thousands upon thousands of airline workers in the U.S., out of work? Why am I not surprised?


BTW, are U.S. or foreign carriers allowed to operate within Australia.....like from Sydney to Perth, for example?

[Edited 2015-02-18 22:50:42]

Every time a U.S. carrier goes into Chapter Eleven it steals those employees' earned entitlements, so the compassion for them seems highly selective.

And the answer is YES. Any foreign carrier can set up to fly domestic sectors in Australia. The only rule is that for an airline to be designated as Australian and obtain international traffic rights there is a cap of 49% foreign ownership.
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:53 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 9):

Which is irrelevant because they still retain Union and has far more leverage than workers elsewhere, aside from Europe of course.
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:01 am

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 8):
You do realise who suffers from this? The consumer is the one that pays the price.

And you base this on what: a detailed analysis showing the net variance between the constant bailouts and support taxpayers unwittingly give to struggling carriers vis-a-vis the difference in price paid to stronger ones who need no such support?

How awesome-- let me see that study.

Otherwise, it's just conjecture on your part, without anywhere remotely near the evidence to suggest that stronger carriers offering more destinations/options at negligibly-higher fares, in an industry with essentially zilch inflation over the span of 4 decades, is somehow a net negative thing for consumers.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 8):
I see they have a fleet of over 700 aircraft. The majority if these are single aisle.

For obvious reasons....


Quoting enzo011 (Reply 8):
Since most airlines put in a new product on their new fleets.

Again, since when?

While there are products that plenty of airlines have chosen to debut on new fleets, there's also plenty who've chosen to debut new products (both soft and hard) on older extant fleets as well.

Look at many of the new/refreshed products lately throughout the aviation world:
AA major refresh/remodel on 15yr-old 772ERs,
UA major refresh/remodel on 21yr-old 772As,
CX refresh/remodel on 17yr-old A333s,
etc etc

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 8):
If you don't renew your aircraft the incentive might not be there to update and change your product.

There's no evidence of that. Your claims seem to blur the line between how you wish the industry functioned, vs how it actually does.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:34 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
BTW, are U.S. or foreign carriers allowed to operate within Australia.....like from Sydney to Perth, for example?

Absolutely.

And one of the reasons that they don't is that in Qantas and Virgin Australia, we have two of the absolute best domestic providers worldwide.

I believe that airlines such as Air New Zealand and Singapore Airlines (via a 'Vistara'-style JV) have looked at flying domestically Australia, and decided against it. Over the years it has been possible to buy 'tag ons' on international flights as domestic legs but none ever reached critical mass to be considered a true domestic operation.

I suspect Emirates and perhaps Etihad somewhere along the way wouldve considered domestic Aussie operations... And maybe led to their decisions to align so tightly with QF and VA...

Cheers,
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:25 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 12):

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
BTW, are U.S. or foreign carriers allowed to operate within Australia.....like from Sydney to Perth, for example?

Absolutely.

And one of the reasons that they don't is that in Qantas and Virgin Australia, we have two of the absolute best domestic providers worldwide.

I believe that airlines such as Air New Zealand and Singapore Airlines (via a 'Vistara'-style JV) have looked at flying domestically Australia, and decided against it. Over the years it has been possible to buy 'tag ons' on international flights as domestic legs but none ever reached critical mass to be considered a true domestic operation.

I suspect Emirates and perhaps Etihad somewhere along the way wouldve considered domestic Aussie operations... And maybe led to their decisions to align so tightly with QF and VA...

Cheers,
Bunumuring.

And that is why we have airlines which find a superb balance between product quality and price.

Whereas the U.S. domestic market's combination of anti-competitive mergers with rampant protectionism has left them with disastrous quality levels. And no prospect of any higher quality entrants entering the market because they are excluded by anti-capitalist protectionism.

Our poor American consumer cousins have to suffer the consequences of their twisted and anti-competitive market. And endure the indignity of being told that they are too stupid, unsophisticated and price-sensitive to want or need the quality levels for 2-8 hour sectors that the rest of the advanced world expects and enjoys on legacy carriers.

It is deeply unfair on US consumers that they don't get any proper choice: they have three bloated post-merger clones offering near-identical terrible quality products at near-identical prices.

It is very, very reminiscent of the old Soviet bloc's distorted markets.

[Edited 2015-02-19 05:33:28]
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:00 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
And, I assume, that you would be overjoyed to see thousands upon thousands of airline workers in the U.S., out of work? Why am I not surprised?

So the jobs of B6 staff don't matter? After all, they are growing on their ME3 feed business.

And stop making this an existential threat. Not a single US airline worker has lost their job because of the ME3.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 8):
For Americans who are proud of Open Skies and competition to lower fares some on here are arguing very hard that higher prices and price fixing is fine with them, as long as it is not illegal.

Seriously. Americans used to carry the banner for open markets and free trade. And they used to argue away all kinds of their comparative advantages. Now the resort to protectionism because the shoe is on the other foot.

That's alright though. In this particular instance, some boneheaded comments are really not going to convince the US government to cast aside their own strategic interests to help US3 profits. Indeed, American diplomats may be stuck apologizing for Anderson's comments in the Middle East.
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 14):
So the jobs of B6 staff don't matter? After all, they are growing on their ME3 feed business.

No one can grow on $50 each way domestic with two bags. I think B6s association with EK was one of the reasons for LH to drop their share.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 14):
That's alright though. In this particular instance, some boneheaded comments are really not going to convince the US government to cast aside their own strategic interests to help US3 profits. Indeed, American diplomats may be stuck apologizing for Anderson's comments in the Middle East.

Both Sir.TC and H.E.AAB said lot of offensive things about lot of countries. If you have access search Youtube. Where are their apologies.

Prior to May 2014, they used to demand more seats from India.
Post May 2014, they are politely requesting more seats.

Government policies and support do matter.

US closed 6 embassies in the region. 2012 Presidential elections proved Florida is not important, so goes Israel and Middle East. We can get oil from North Dakota.

So don't over estimate of Gulfs importance.

China is far more important still US can say/do anything it wants. Do you know 8 US IT and 4 US Consulting companies are banned in China, just because US issued arrest warrant for 5 Chinese officials allegedly stealing US Intellectual Property? Do you see US apologizing?

Also, we can un friend any country at will, as easily as a teenager unfriends someone on Facebook.

[Edited 2015-02-19 06:30:57]
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
Just because the DOJ doesn't think its anti-competitive to allow 6 legacy carriers to become 3 does not mean that it is true.

Well, actually under the law it is NOT anti-competitive. I am sure though that you've applied the same rigorous legal analysis to the JV that the DOJ, and other Justice Ministries did to arrive at that conclusion. You keep saying this, but have no data to back up that fares have actually gone up (as adjusted for inflation).

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
You gloat about lowest ever domestic fares in the USA.

And the lowest fares in history are bad because...?

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
Big deal. Long-haul fares on routes like the Kangaroo Route are also at historically low levels. With proper service levels.

"Proper" as you define it, and bully for you that your country is giving away the store. When you look up in a few years and Qantas is merely a regional carrier you will have succeeded.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
Dubai to Athens is shorter than Miami to Los Angeles.

But includes food, a 50 pound bag, beverages and IFE.

So on Miami-LAX and FLL-LAX there are free IFE and beverages. Food is a uniquely non-American desire, as most people don't necessarily care to eat but ok, there is BOB food. Half the airplane will be checking free bags as status members, but again most Americans carry on.

So long story short 2 out of the 4 already happen. All 4 happen on US carriers for international segments, which is the example you're using for ATH-DXB.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
The bottom line is that US carriers have been allowed to merge their way to profitability, and charge ludicrous fees for what the ME3 include on similar sector lengths.

Alternatively, consolidation has brought a level of competition and financial health that the industry has never seen, those carriers have adapted their business model to offer choice to the consumer and the lowest fares in history, provide jobs to their employees, and return value to the shareholder.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
Because you and I both know exactly what would happen. The ME3 would include food, beverages and a checked bag on domestic flights but would match your legacy carriers on price. Probably even undercut them.

On maybe 25 routes. Is Emirates going to serve, say, Columbus, Georgia? Or Moline, Illinois? Or Eugene, Oregon?
You are right about one thing, they would uncercut them because you don't have to show a profit when you answer to Sheikh Mohammed and the ICD.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 5):
Doesn't fit the definition? Do the carriers of the JV decide together on a price? Yes. Has this caused the average price to go up? Yes. And this is not collusion?

Under the definition of collusion, it is not.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 5):
Not going to go into all their fleet choices, but having a fleet of 16.6 years of age and you only have 78 wide-body aircraft on order and you have 159 in your fleet seems odd.

Odd to you, who do not understand fleet planning. When you don't have a sovereign wealth fund behind you to udnerwrite your purchases fleet planning is a different ballgame.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 8):
Ah, so the antitrust immunity stops the collusion from being illegal. You do realise who suffers from this? The consumer is the one that pays the price. The one who was supposed to benefit is the one paying the higher price. For Americans who are proud of Open Skies and competition to lower fares some on here are arguing very hard that higher prices and price fixing is fine with them, as long as it is not illegal.

You keep saying this, but have no data to back up that fares have actually gone up (as adjusted for inflation).

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 9):
Every time a U.S. carrier goes into Chapter Eleven it steals those employees' earned entitlements, so the compassion for them seems highly selective.

Ironic, because at Delta the employee pensions were protected. The pilot pension was turned over to the PBGC but ALPA also got a number os promissory notes totalling into the billions.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 13):
disastrous quality levels.

Disastrous? How so?

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 13):
It is very, very reminiscent of the old Soviet bloc's distorted markets.

Says the guy who keeps telling us how great Emirates' quality is, even though they are backed by the STATE OWNED ICD. Of the two markets, the US and the UAE, which one is reminiscient of the Soviet bloc? Last time I looked, Soviet era Aeroflot also had state backing...
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 16):
Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 13):It is very, very reminiscent of the old Soviet bloc's distorted markets.
Says the guy who keeps telling us how great Emirates' quality is, even though they are backed by the STATE OWNED ICD. Of the two markets, the US and the UAE, which one is reminiscient of the Soviet bloc? Last time I looked, Soviet era Aeroflot also had state backing...

Worse than that. Emirates President, Sheikh Al Maktoum, is also the head of Dubai Civil Aviation Authority, Chairman of Dubai Airports, and President of dnata. If that could happen here it would be the same as Doug Parker being CEO of American Airlines, head of the FAA, and President of several airports like DFW, ORD, LAX, JFK. True Soviet org chart.
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:20 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 14):
Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
And, I assume, that you would be overjoyed to see thousands upon thousands of airline workers in the U.S., out of work? Why am I not surprised?

So the jobs of B6 staff don't matter? After all, they are growing on their ME3 feed business.

And stop making this an existential threat. Not a single US airline worker has lost their job because of the ME3.

Where did B6 come into this argument? I was replying to THIS statement:

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 3):
And that introduction of genuine competition would destroy your three low-quality legacy carriers. They would be out of business almost overnight.
Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 9):
Every time a U.S. carrier goes into Chapter Eleven it steals those employees' earned entitlements, so the compassion for them seems highly selective.

Since this thread is about DL, I'll say this......DL has been in bankruptcy ONCE in its 85 years of existence, so it's not like they're filing for it, every year.

Or, perhaps the big three are "colluding" on this, too.  
Quoting enzo011 (Reply 5):
Not going to go into all their fleet choices, but having a fleet of 16.6 years of age and you only have 78 wide-body aircraft on order and you have 159 in your fleet seems odd. Sometimes having the shiny new plane helps your product...but it seems everyone is fine with what they get from Delta.

Perhaps because many of those widebodies aren't nearly that old and don't need replacing. You don't always have to replace them, one for one. Sometimes buying the shiny new plane, just because they are, is a waste of money. There's already plans in place to end 747 ops.

BTW, I can't tell you for sure, but I'll bet that the figure of 16.6 years for the Delta fleet was tallied BEFORE they quit operating most of the ex-NW DC-9 aircraft. Most everything else, still in the fleet, has been refurbished. Nost pax, getting on the aircraft don't know if the a/c is new or just re-furbished, so, whether the a/c is "shiny new" or not is irrelevant. Only when they become a mechanical liability does it become a problem and considering DL's record this past year on completion factor, delays and on time, it doesn't look like it's a liability to me.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:31 pm

Emirates has come out and rebuffed Anderson's apology saying his comments were quote "deliberately crafted and delivered for specific effect."

This just gets better and better.
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 12):
Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
BTW, are U.S. or foreign carriers allowed to operate within Australia.....like from Sydney to Perth, for example?

Absolutely.

Wait, what?!

Since when do US carriers have 8th/9th freedom rights in Australia????????

I suspect that the answer is "never," and that you don't understand the difference between a tag segment vs actual cabotage.... but figured I'd ask anyway.

Either that, or you just ignored the US part and are focused only on the few examples of NZ-based carriers using limited cabotage in Australia.

Quoting catiii (Reply 16):
Well, actually under the law it is NOT anti-competitive. I am sure though that you've applied the same rigorous legal analysis to the JV that the DOJ, and other Justice Ministries did to arrive at that conclusion. You keep saying this, but have no data to back up that fares have actually gone up (as adjusted for inflation).

    
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
catiii
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 18):
Or, perhaps the big three are "colluding" on this, too.

Well remember, DL and NW went in and filed on the same day!  
 
ytz
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 19):
his comments were quote "deliberately crafted and delivered for specific effect."

They absolutely were. Very, very reminiscent of the whole Dubai Ports World saga. Xenophobic at the least.

It's good that he apologized at least. He'd do well to remember that DTW has a large Arab population and he just implied that virtually anybody from that part of the world is guilty by association.

[Edited 2015-02-19 09:53:55]
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 22):
It's good that he apologized at least.

He got the message out. Fox News will carry the torch. No need to waste his time on this issue any further.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 22):
He'd do well to remember that DTW has a large Arab population and he just implied that virtually anybody from that part of the world is guilty by association.

I doubt Middle Eastern population in Metro Detroit gives a damn about ME3. This petition proves that. With Million plus ME population and 75,000 Indians in Michigan, petition didn't get 5,000 required votes in two years.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/669/4...s-demand-detroit-to-dubai-service/
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catiii
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 22):

It's good that he apologized at least.

I do wonder if he purposely intended to create a controversy. I mean, it did get people talking about open skies who heretofore hadn't paid any attention to it (and I mean in the general public, not on this site...).
 
ytz
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):
I do wonder if he purposely intended to create a controversy. I mean, it did get people talking about open skies who heretofore hadn't paid any attention to it (and I mean in the general public, not on this site...).

Absolutely. But I do think he was sort of hoping to draw some inferences and let people run away with them. When Dubai Ports World happened, some small company in Florida was the original complainant against the P&O deal since they were losing business. They complained on commercial terms and then a bunch of politicians jumped on board with similar rhetoric to Anderson's and scuttled the deal. I think he was sort of hoping that he could start a similar campaign by drawing some similar linkages. Probably hasn't worked out for him they way he'd liked. But I don't think this will be the last time he'll push this line.

It's pretty clear he's worried. And I'd be too. Look at a list of metropolitan statistical areas by population. In the top 13, EK doesn't serve three: PHL, MIA, ATL and DTW. It's pretty obvious where they'll be going next and that's certainly going to have the biggest impact on DL.
 
stlgph
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 24):

Yes and it got people talking about what wonderful airlines the ME3 are and how much better they are to fly internationally than U.S. carriers.
On the other side of the world, you've got the fine folks in Qatar and the UAE sitting there ticked off about the comments when both countries have been playing rather nicely with the U.S.-led coalition against ISIL/ISIS. Let's just hope they get over it quickly.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
DXBDFWHGA
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:40 pm

Mr. Anderson, I'm going to quote President Truman, "If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen."
 
Andy33
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:20 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 22):
he just implied that virtually anybody from that part of the world is guilty by association.

It's rather as if the CEO of Malaysian was to attack TP because MH17 was shot down over Eastern Ukraine, using the argument that Portugal and Ukraine were both physically in Europe.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:57 pm

Quoting DXBDFWHGA (Reply 27):

Seems like people being sensitive were the jackals over at ME3
 
Nouflyer
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:47 pm

Catiii
It is not state ownership which destroys quality or value. Temasek has in no way harmed Singapore Airlines.

The problem in the USA is that your government is always excessively influenced by lobbying by big corporations. The result has been your low quality and anti-competitive aviation industry. I realise that your DOJ has approved that anti-competitive behaviour, but it is what it is no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

It is striking that you say Americans don't want choice, don't expect to eat on a 2-6 hour sector which equates to a 4-8 hour period of their day.

It's like saying that Americans would be happy if only two cars were for sale in the country: a $7000 second hand Ford and a $20,000 new Toyota. Nothing else at all.

You should be worried about three clones with identical products which profit due to the removal of 50% of competition by mergers.

But no, you see the profits and are happy, even though the product quality is less than your legacy consumer peers overseas enjoy.
 
flyenthu
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:03 pm

Now EK has issued this statement:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...delta-apology-after-ceo-suggests-/

This thing is getting bigger!

F/E
 
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enzo011
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:56 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 11):
And you base this on what: a detailed analysis showing the net variance between the constant bailouts and support taxpayers unwittingly give to struggling carriers vis-a-vis the difference in price paid to stronger ones who need no such support?

How awesome-- let me see that study.

Otherwise, it's just conjecture on your part, without anywhere remotely near the evidence to suggest that stronger carriers offering more destinations/options at negligibly-higher fares, in an industry with essentially zilch inflation over the span of 4 decades, is somehow a net negative thing for consumers.
Quoting catiii (Reply 16):
You keep saying this, but have no data to back up that fares have actually gone up (as adjusted for inflation).

I have the following link, http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1764083

I do not claim to be an expert at all, but if the conclusion states, "The data support the
presumption that the loss of competition in trans-Atlantic routes with non-stop service as a result
of antitrust immunity grants adversely affects consumers. The data also indicate that an antitrust
immunity grant does not allow the JV partners to achieve the pricing efficiencies associated with
unified control. The evidence in fact shows that, within the major alliances, antitrust immunized
arrangements have not allowed the JV partners to reduce fares for connecting trans-Atlantic
passengers below those sold under non- immunized arrangements."

I am here to learn, if you can show me any different I am open to a change of mind.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 11):
Again, since when?

While there are products that plenty of airlines have chosen to debut on new fleets, there's also plenty who've chosen to debut new products (both soft and hard) on older extant fleets as well.

Look at many of the new/refreshed products lately throughout the aviation world:
AA major refresh/remodel on 15yr-old 772ERs,
UA major refresh/remodel on 21yr-old 772As,
CX refresh/remodel on 17yr-old A333s,
etc etc

Well I do remember a lot of excitement when a new product is launched. Many times this is on a new type as it is easier to start fitting out your new planes with the new product, i.e. EY first apartments, new 787 J class seats. Now while this is not 100% true, I don't think I stated that it always happens though, I have said most airlines put in new products on their new fleets. It seems a obvious time to update your fleet, doesn't it? Then again if you don't have new planes on order you will be forced to update your product on your current fleet or be left behind.

Quoting catiii (Reply 16):
Odd to you, who do not understand fleet planning. When you don't have a sovereign wealth fund behind you to udnerwrite your purchases fleet planning is a different ballgame.

LH has 105 wide bodies in their fleet and 86 on order (with options). They also have 169 single aisle aircraft in their fleet and 206 on order with options. Those sovereign wealth funds...eh?

Quoting mayor (Reply 18):
Perhaps because many of those widebodies aren't nearly that old and don't need replacing. You don't always have to replace them, one for one. Sometimes buying the shiny new plane, just because they are, is a waste of money. There's already plans in place to end 747 ops.

BTW, I can't tell you for sure, but I'll bet that the figure of 16.6 years for the Delta fleet was tallied BEFORE they quit operating most of the ex-NW DC-9 aircraft. Most everything else, still in the fleet, has been refurbished. Nost pax, getting on the aircraft don't know if the a/c is new or just re-furbished, so, whether the a/c is "shiny new" or not is irrelevant. Only when they become a mechanical liability does it become a problem and considering DL's record this past year on completion factor, delays and on time, it doesn't look like it's a liability to me.

One of EKs advantages over the competition is that they are flying a newer fleet with the latest fuel efficient aircraft. I believe they lease most of their aircraft and pay back the purchase price after 12 years (at least the lessor gets their money back with interest), so they are not saddled with older aircraft. While there are benefits to having paid off aircraft, there is also an advantage to having newer aircraft flying around as well. At the moment it seems to work for DL as their profits are up, but the airlines that work with a new fleet seem to make it work as well.
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:13 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 30):

It is striking that you say Americans don't want choice, don't expect to eat on a 2-6 hour sector which equates to a 4-8 hour period of their day.

Sounds to me, as though WN is as guilty (if there IS any guilt) of this as any of the Big 3, but they have not been mentioned. Why is WN so popular if they don't offer meals, even though you seem to think that this is what the American traveler wants? Could it be, as has been mentioned, that these same passengers are looking at price over amenities? Could it be that you don't know as much about the North American aviation market as you let on, with your continuous apples and oranges comparisons?

Could it be?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Nouflyer
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:03 am

Mayor,
Again you generalise. All coach pax want the cheapest fare and no hot food even TransContinental or to Hawaii and Alaska.

It is an insult to the intelligence.

Australia is the same size and has 4 legacy owned airlines.

One offers meals on every flight over one hour.

A second offers snacks plus a hot meal on all flights over 3 hours.

The third and fourth function as LCCs.

We have one twelfth of your population but we have consumer choice. You just have pseudo-monopoly low quality clones. It's as if every single car for sale in the country is a fifteen year old Ford sedan or a new Toyota Camry.

If you want a CD player or air conditioning, your only choice is to buy the expensive option, the equivalent of First Class.

You want a hot meal between Chicago and Honolulu? It's First Class or nothing.

So much for consumer choice!

[Edited 2015-02-19 17:14:19]
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):

It is an insult to the intelligence.

It's as though they suffer from Stockholm syndrome. They've been suffering with US3 service standards for so long that they've absolutely come to believe the airlines' lines that this is the best that the airlines could do.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:46 am

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 32):
I have the following link, http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...64083

Which doesn't mean much.

Again, look at what it's actually saying: whining about lower fares, when no one in their right mind expected fares to decrease (the whole point of sales after all is to MAXIMIZE revenue) and instead realize that J/Vs are about lowering cost and using that to promote operational efficiencies.

But if you'll recall, that's not even what was asked-- instead the question was, is the tradeoff for increased strength in the carriers, vs serially loss-making carriers propped up by the taxpayers (who aren't all even flying) in one way or another, an overall net benefit for the market.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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enzo011
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:08 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 36):
Which doesn't mean much.

Again, look at what it's actually saying: whining about lower fares, when no one in their right mind expected fares to decrease (the whole point of sales after all is to MAXIMIZE revenue) and instead realize that J/Vs are about lowering cost and using that to promote operational efficiencies.

But if you'll recall, that's not even what was asked-- instead the question was, is the tradeoff for increased strength in the carriers, vs serially loss-making carriers propped up by the taxpayers (who aren't all even flying) in one way or another, an overall net benefit for the market.

The discussion was about the collusion of the JV partners and the effect on the consumers. I was asked to produce a paper that has some support of this point of view. So now this isn't the question anymore?

Your answer is interesting as well, seems as though you are on the side of the big corporations. Do you also believe that they are people as well? The JVs were sold as a benefit to consumers as the costs for those partners in the JV would decrease and this would be passed on to you*. It hasn't happened because, corporations do not care about you* they only care about their value and profits.

*you being the average consumer, not a Delta executive or shareholder
 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:24 am

Quoting YTZ (Reply 35):

It's as though they suffer from Stockholm syndrome. They've been suffering with US3 service standards for so long that they've absolutely come to believe the airlines' lines that this is the best that the airlines could do.
Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):
We have one twelfth of your population but we have consumer choice. You just have pseudo-monopoly low quality clones. It's as if every single car for sale in the country is a fifteen year old Ford sedan or a new Toyota Camry.

What you are seeing in the US is the ultimate consumer choice. The distinction missing in your argument is the difference between what consumers say they want and what they are willing to pay for.

If there is any industry that has a hold on the U.S. it is the financial industry, and they do not allow the kind of collusion/monopoly that you are speaking.

One thing the US has more than it's fair share of is greedy sharks with lots of cash burning holes in their pockets. I guarantee you, if there was money to be made offering a higher quality product, it would be done. We have several investment funds in this country that could buy the airline of their choice for CASH. Berkshire Hathaway has enough cash to buy the entire U.S. airline industry at the current market cap. Add on top of that the fact that borrowing cost right now are essentially zero.

Dear Mr. Buffet, have I got an investment idea for you...all these airlines are mere clones offering a low quality product...why don't you buy an airline, offer meals and free checked bags with some pretty flight attendants...and just watch the dollars roll in. You can't Lose!

[Edited 2015-02-20 03:36:59]
 
FlyBigDeltaJets
Posts: 122
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:43 am

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 38):
Dear Mr. Buffet, have I got an investment idea for you...all these airlines are mere clones offering a low quality product...why don't you buy an airline, offer meals and free checked bags with some pretty flight attendants...and just watch the dollars roll in. You can't Lose!

I'm pretty sure at some point in his life, WB has had the goal of becoming a millionaire. It's just a question of whether he wanted to do it after becoming a billionaire.... 
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:34 pm

If EK/QR want to provide quality choice to us why not start a domestic carrier and run it "efficiently".

BTW, the so called "efficiency" probably contributes to about 0.01% to their success.

Like one Indian politician said(about ME3), any one can run an airline, if some one else creates the required aviation infrastructure and business friendly environment. You need skills only if you are operating in a difficult environment.

Now that genie is out of the bottle, there is no way to put it back, just like DPW.

BTW, DL customers do have a better service option for their international travel called "Virgin Atlantic".
All posts are just opinions.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:39 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 38):

You can have all the excuses you want to supply, you do not change the realty. In the USA a few airlines sit around a really big domestic market and avoid real competition like the pest. No other area is as big and reserved for airlines from only one country.
Than this airlines have to compete on the international stage and cry about getting some real competition and begging "Mama" big government to please please remove this competition.
 
ytz
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Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 38):
What you are seeing in the US is the ultimate consumer choice. The distinction missing in your argument is the difference between what consumers say they want and what they are willing to pay for.

This holds true for the domestic market. Not so for the international long-haul markets, where the US3 and their partners dominate and they try to fight off any competition through government regulation. Not just the ME3. Look at their fight against Norwegian.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:16 pm

Looks like a report is out regarding the ME3's supposed subsidies over the years. I can't find the actual report but there is an article referencing it.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/13051...sidies.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO
 
catiii
Posts: 3746
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 30):
It is not state ownership which destroys quality or value.

I never said it did. You, however, brought up Soviet era distortion of markets which is ironic because state ownership, such as the ICD's involvement with Emirates, tends to prop up business models that otherwise wouldn't survive in the marketplace. Very reminiscient of the Soviets. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that Soviet era market distortion was bad, and then say that state ownership in this case is a good thing.

It's great that Emirates offers the products it offers, and it's great they have the airplanes they have on order. They have the luxury of being backed by the ICD, which can subsidize bad fleet planning decisions and which, as a government entity, can push for policies that distort the marketplace (to use your term) to benefit Emirates.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 30):
It is striking that you say Americans don't want choice, don't expect to eat on a 2-6 hour sector which equates to a 4-8 hour period of their day.

The marketplace has shown they don't.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 30):
You should be worried about three clones with identical products which profit due to the removal of 50% of competition by mergers.

As somone who works for one of the other non big 3 airlines, I am not at all worried. Competition is fierce and there is ample opportunity to disrupt the marketplace. I would, however, posit a different theory. You keep saying there are three clones and that there is some collusive activity going on. Has it ever occurred to you that those three carriers are so finely in tune with what the marketplace wants that they are so identical, as you like to say, because they're all equally responding to the US market's needs?

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 32):
LH has 105 wide bodies in their fleet and 86 on order (with options). They also have 169 single aisle aircraft in their fleet and 206 on order with options. Those sovereign wealth funds...eh?

Ooook...and United has 110 A350/787/773 on order, and 150 737 MAX/NG on order. What's your point? They're making responsible fleet planning choices based on their capital and needs.

You dinged Delta based on their fleet age and fleet choices they've made relative to the fleet choices Emirates has made. Again, Emirates has the ICD backing it. Delta doesn't. A more relevant observation would have been to compare Delta's fleet planning to United's, instead of throwing up some canard about Lufthansa.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):
All coach pax want the cheapest fare and no hot food even TransContinental or to Hawaii and Alaska.

It is an insult to the intelligence.

Equally as insulting as assuming, as you have done, that all coach customers want to be served a meal.

Quoting enzo011 (Reply 37):
Do you also believe that they are people as well?

As someone employed by a corporation, and as someone who believes that the corporation is only as good as its people, yes...

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 38):
The distinction missing in your argument is the difference between what consumers say they want and what they are willing to pay for.

Ding ding ding...we have a winner. People want lie flat seats in coach. People will not pay for it...

[Edited 2015-02-20 07:35:27]
 
catiii
Posts: 3746
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:49 pm

I will say this: I think the DL vs the ME3 is becoming the new A vs. B  
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 44):

You just forget one thing, yes Emirates is state owned, yes Dubai has prepared an ideal business environment for Emirates to be operated in, but the accusation of subsidies?
Dubai is not living on oil, but trading and transport. The Emirates airline is run to earn money, not to spend it.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 44):
You can't say that Soviet era market distortion was bad, and then say that state ownership in this case is a good thing.

There's absolutely a difference. Is SQ mismanaged? It is majority owned by the government of Singapore. Some governments are just better at managing certain businesses than others.

Quoting catiii (Reply 44):
which can subsidize bad fleet planning decisions

I'd say that Emirates fleet decisions have largely proven to be ahead of the curve.

Quoting catiii (Reply 44):
The marketplace has shown they don't.
Quoting catiii (Reply 44):
because they're all equally responding to the US market's needs?

If that's the case, why are the US3 lobbying the government. Surely, they have the pulse of the market and can simply adjust products and prices and respond. They should simply undercut the ME3. After all, it's not like the ME3 have the lowest prices. And their costs are higher with longer haul and higher levels of service.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 43):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 46):

A lot of their accusation of subsidies are things which would not be considered subsidies in the US itself: infrastructure investment by government, and volume discount from suppliers. Interest-free loans (like the one to EY) might be more troublesome. And outright grants would be. But then again, once the US3 open up this can of worms, the US government will be obliged to use the same standards against other partner carriers of the US3 operating to the US with many of the same considerations. SQ in particular comes to mind. AI is particularly egregious for being wholly dependent on government funding. Is UA willing to let the DOT and State use the same standard on AI? Then there's the Chinese carriers....
 
Andy33
Posts: 2570
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 40):
If EK/QR want to provide quality choice to us why not start a domestic carrier and run it "efficiently".

Where do you think they should do this?
There is only the one commercial airport in Qatar, for instance, so more than a bit difficult for QR to start a domestic carrier in their own country. If you meant in the USA, I'm sure you know that the US government has regulations that prohibit this. Look at the hoops that Virgin America had to jump through to get started.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8713
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Delta CEO Associates UAE Carriers With 9-11 Part 2

Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 47):
AI is particularly egregious for being wholly dependent on government funding. Is UA willing to let the DOT and State use the same standard on AI?

AI got $1.92 Billion in 82 years. Are you sure you want to use that as standard. EK probably gets that much every month in hidden benefits.

AI is not run by a family. Every dollar going in to it is budgeted and accounted. There is no one giving money under the table to AI.
All posts are just opinions.

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