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aerdingus
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 48):
eh its probably impossible to have a fuel stop from Shannon to Newark - 3,000 miles out of a range of 4600 miles.. You could basically use a 737 from there

Someone above said an A380 had to stop from FRA - IAH enroute for fuel due to headwinds. You could fly anything from anywhere, depends on wind and weights my friend.
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skipness1E
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:45 am

Option 1 : direct B757 with potential fuel stop, on occasion may take longer
Option 2 : er....connect indirect and be certain it will always take longer

Armchair CEOs are brilliant!
 
frostyj
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:57 am

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 50):

You can look up the data with flightaware and you will find that there has NEVER been a fuel stop from Ireland using a 757. You can use any plane if you add tanks but the range listed by boeing is a domestic high density configuration.

We are told that 73% of the range is needed to not guarntee the fuel diversion and we don't reach that figure until Heathrow which is why I said it should only be used in Portugal and the British Isles.

[Edited 2015-02-22 04:00:00]
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mjoelnir
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 18):
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 8):

Ok well I don't think its a bad idea to fly a 757 transatlantic, however, I do think there is a limit which is most certainly being exceeded. The limit is imo 3,500 miles which takes us to Paris.

I really don't see a justification for a narrowbody to fly the whole way from nyc to Sweden and Germany which are 1,000 miles further than Ireland to America. Its great that these people have this option but at the same time we have to wonder is it really viable in terms of costs.

Even then what about comfort? Is it good to sit in a domestic configuration for 9 to 10 hours?

At any range the 757-200 manages, she is more cost effective per seat with of course far lower trip cost than any 767. Talking about the 767 as an alternative, the 767 is as dead as the 757 as a new build passenger frame, next step up is a A330 or 787.
The cost pressure for the 757 comes from below not above.
There is no law stating that 757 have to have "domestic configuration" when doing TATL. I have not flown on UA 757 across the Atlantic, but for example the Delta 757 coming to KEF are in transatlantic configuration not domestic and the Icelandair 757 do not have a domestic configuration.

This usage of the 757 shows that there is a place for a longer ranged narrowbody flying thin routes.

Regarding the frequent fuelstops for the UA 757 flights. UA should have the warning that due to weather conditions passengers should expect fuel diversion with x hours delay in the winter month abcd and adjust their travel schedules accordingly.
 
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aerdingus
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:11 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 52):
We are told that 73% of the range is needed to not guarntee the fuel diversion and we don't reach that figure until Heathrow which is why I said it should only be used in Portugal and the British Isles.

757 only to Western Europe yet yer advocating "basically" using a 737 transatlantic from SNN?  

You do realise that airlines want to make the most out of their a/c these days yeah?
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frostyj
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 54):

No I said in the summer they could use a 737-800 as it is at 82% of range but not in winter. A 737-700 would certainly work.

Airlines can make money but it is unrealistic to have constant fuel stops which aren't advertised.
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frostyj
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 53):

i've flown on the United 757 a few times and it is definitely a domestc configuration in economy (see below)

http://i.usatoday.net/travel/_photos...-ua/CO-CoachClasspg-horizontal.jpg

We already have the proposed replacement aircrafts (A321 neos and A321LR) so that isn't an issue. The issue is that they don't advertise that the plane will stop for fuel.
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aerdingus
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 55):
No I said in the summer they could use a 737-800 as it is at 82% of range but not in winter. A 737-700 would certainly work.

737 is too small for seasonal summer transatlantic routes.
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frostyj
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Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:26 pm

My point was just to the user that there would be no fuel stop from Shannon ever..
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rutankrd
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 55):
Airlines can make money but it is unrealistic to have constant fuel stops which aren't advertised.

Make your mind up - Its the climate and seasonal trade winds at the moment.

West bound is heavy weather (no pun) , east bound you arrive 40-50 minutes early !

And its not just effecting the 757 either. Larger craft are struggling to the west coast and from the east coast even the 777 takes a stop in Vancouver or Anchorage from time to time during the year and for similar reasons !

BTW airlines do advice at the counter if a pre-planned fuel stop is expected before boarding.

The 757 has been crossing the Atlantic since its inception with Air Europe and Monarch using them way before the legacies realised there usefulness.

As for the single aisle for short haul only i've pointed out its nonsense - Personally a single aisle can be far more appealing even in the back of the bus with a decent seat and pitch oh and no bl**dy IFE console restricting your feet space,than a flying cinema the thirty people within breathing space imo.

The front of a PMCo 75W is actually rather pleasant

[Edited 2015-02-22 04:36:04]
 
mjoelnir
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 56):
We already have the proposed replacement aircrafts (A321 neos and A321LR) so that isn't an issue. The issue is that they don't advertise that the plane will stop for fuel.

Neither will do this trips in the winter without the occasional fuel stop either and for me it is questionable that they are as capable regarding payload, volume restricted as the 757.
I talk about one step up in capability from the 757.

Regarding the warning about the fuel stops, as you can also read above, I completely agree. One and a half hour fuel stop on the direct flight is preferable to changing the flight somewhere, but I would like to be warned about the possibility of missing my connection.
 
frostyj
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 60):

Well I read that the Airbus figures are accounting for winds so apparently the airbus plane would be better to do this route.
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777Jet
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):
Many of these routes would not likely have services without a 757, so its this or nothing I would think.

  

Quoting frostyj (Reply 15):
Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):

It isn't an overeaction. You shouldn't be flying a narrowbody to Berlin from New York its wayyyy too far.

The airlines and the pax who continue to fly on 757s on those routes obviously don't think so  
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slcguy
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:03 pm

Getting tired of the 757 bashing about TATL. What about the countless A-320 US transcons in the winter that can't do east coast to west coast without a stop in DEN, SLC, LAS, ABQ. Maybe we should be talking no A-320 on transcon flights! Here's an idea, pull the 757's off TATL, put them on the transcon routes, easy range no matter what sort of wind and can operate at almost any airport. High, hot, short field with high load, just what it was designed to do!

[Edited 2015-02-22 05:08:20]

[Edited 2015-02-22 05:09:27]
 
frostyj
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:12 pm

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 65):

No I want them to continue to fly here they provide us with really superior ife and get us a route that we would not have.
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airbazar
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):

Many of these routes would not likely have services without a 757, so its this or nothing I would think.

No, for the majority it's this or connecting somewhere else. A fuel stop is enough to miss a connection, in this case if your final destination is not EWR. That in my opinion is far worse than going via FRA or MUC, or LH, etc.
 
slcguy
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:28 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 67):
No I want them to continue to fly here they provide us with really superior ife and get us a route that we would not have.

I agree, the 757 serves a purpose on many TATL routes, my reply was aimed at all the people on this site that think the 757 is old and worthless and ignore short comings of other aircraft.
 
opticalilyushin
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:35 pm

I would assume that in most cases the seats are pretty similar with an airline, regardless of whether they are bolted into a 757 or 767. It makes financial sense when ordering new seats in bulk, not to mention it keeps the maintenance side of things more simple. Passengers like consistency in a product after all. Many of the US airlines who fly the 757 across the pond use a specific group of aircraft, they tend to be younger airframes, and they do have less seats than the domestic airframes (check Wikipedia for specific numbers), so your argument that they use domestic configs for TATL is unlikely. Of course it doesn't stop the airline using their international fleet on domestic runs during down time.

Like some others on here I have no issues with using narrowbodies on long runs. I've happily flown 8hrs 15 in a 757 and 6hrs 45 in a 738, and it is a lot quicker to get off when not stuck down the back of a widebody.
 
frostyj
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 69):

Yes just not to mainland Europe.

BTW the product they offer is far better than British Airways, Virgin Atlantic or any of those other wide body airlines. I was looking at the British Airways product and its terrible in economy.

I would never go via Heathrow ever.
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JetBuddy
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 2):
Many of these routes would not likely have services without a 757, so its this or nothing I would think.
Quoting goboeing (Reply 5):
These routes obviously would not support something larger so the passengers would be stopping in some other hub during a connection anyway.

Many of these routes already have one or two other competitors flying widebodies.
 
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kgaiflyer
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:16 pm

I always read these threads with amusement -- remembering the DC-8s and CL-44s FI and it predecessors used to send across the Atlantic from BOS, JFK, and BWI. Some of those complaining now were FI flyers back in their college back-packing days -- and with Eurail pass in hand -- they thought nothing of it.

Personally, if I had a 757 complaint, it would be about those crowded and increasingly tatty 753s that UA sends cross-county and to Hawaii from the west coast. Legroom in the back is no better than on anything NK flies. Yet the flights are way longer. And even UA doesn't have adapters for those stupid double-prong audio jacks on the 753s. That does strike me as bad service.
 
asterix
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:21 pm

I fly to Europe at least once a month. I have been doing so for the last 8 years. I always choose flights operated with a 757. Not once in these past 8 years have I had a diversion.

The 757 is well suited for the North Atlantic.
 
idlewildchild
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:47 pm

I've flown UA/CO B752 EWR-UK numerous times, roundtrip, and never had a technical stop. I'm not crazy about the small cabin but normally they do the job. I do prefer a wide bodied (#1, B744, #2, B777, #3, B763, #4, A333)
 
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Btriple7
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:52 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 33):
Its not occasionally it is regularly. I am not sure why the Americans are defending this, no one should have to suffer regular fuel stops.

The following routes should be cancelled or updated to a 767-300 and the frequency reduced

1. Berlin
2. Hamberg
3. Stockholm
4. Oslo
5. Barcelona
6. Madrid
7. Paris


Also I have to wonder? Why does Brussels have a 777 and Madrid and Berlin only have 757's??

My friend, UA has a skyscraper full of analysts in Chicago who examine demand in these markets, plan out these routes, and assign aircraft. What makes you think you're more qualified than they are to make these decisions? You can't be serious.



The outraged crowd in this thread remind of the same people who love to complain about how awful FR is. What you find unacceptable is not always the same as what the rest of the traveling public finds unacceptable. The airlines have spent years (longer than some of us have been alive) perfecting their TATL models. If the public decides that weekly fuel stops during the winter are unacceptable, then the market will adjust. But for now, the only people who are not OK with this setup, are a vocal few (many of whom seem to have found this thread).

(As a side note, FR has changed its business model slightly in recent years in response to changing public preferences. So it is possible that in a few years, the 757 will be deemed an unacceptable aircraft for TATL, but for now, that is not the case.)

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 51):
Option 1 : direct B757 with potential fuel stop, on occasion may take longer
Option 2 : er....connect indirect and be certain it will always take longer

Armchair CEOs are brilliant!

  


//Bt7
Just...fly.
 
rg787
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:01 pm

I am going to tell you my own history:

I live in Brasilia, capital of Brazil, airport BSB. Until some years ago most people didn't even know this city existed and thought Buenos Aires or Rio de Janeiro was the capital. Likewise, we didn't have international flights. None. Every time we thought about going to the US or Europe or even south america, we had to go to GRU or GIG, or at least POA depending on the destination. Well, the fastest connections in those places take 2 hours if you are just another Joe Public. A diversion for fuel takes 1 hour, 1h30 mins max, probably faster. So, looking at the times, you still have an advantage.

Even with the time advantage, when making a connection you need to get off the plane, often go trough customs, your luggage goes off the plane and travels inside the whole airport (this may be risky depending on the place), and you risk losing your flights. On a fuel diversion, none of this happens. You just land, wait some time and then you are good to go. Much better.

In my city, the 757 opened many routes to the US that wouldn't be possible without it. This route isn't as much affected by winds as the transatlantic ones, but I praise the 757 everyday I enter the airport because if it wasn't for this plane, our city would still be just another point in the world, even with diversions. Thanks to this superb plane and its capabilities, tourism has improved a hell of a lot here and some airlines are up gauging their flights, so, may I tell every 757 basher: God bless the 757.
 
SCQ83
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:08 pm

UA is shameful, but what can you expect of that company.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 51):
Option 1 : direct B757 with potential fuel stop, on occasion may take longer
Option 2 : er....connect indirect and be certain it will always take longer

Option 3: you are paying a premium to fly non-stop instead of connect indirect. However at the end you are flying indirect whatsoever (and you have made your plans according to that). That is more challenging to many people, since you might have booked a train from NYC, have relatives waiting for you at EWR, etc.

Option 4: you might have chose United (you are an infrequent flyer that knows nothing about what a B757 or a B777 is) over other non-stop options. It is pathetic the pro-UA team here praising "you should be grateful to UA that is flying to your city". Many of those cities have other non-stop options to NYC (Berlin, Madrid, Paris, Barcelona, London).

Option 5 (even worse): you are connecting in EWR and you are missing your connection. So it is taking more time than any other option you would have available (connecting in Europe and flying non-stop, connecting in other US port or with other carrier in NYC).
 
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Btriple7
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting N505fx (Reply 30):
no true, even UAL has larger gauge on those city pairs at time. and, the gulf carriers have proven, offer a better product and people will hub...unlike the crap all US carriers are offering.

I don't agree with your logic here. At the moment, the product on US carriers is inferior to the ME3, and that is not something they can change overnight. The US carriers know that, so to compete, their solution is to offer a direct flight (yes, I said direct because it is direct most of the time) with a slightly inferior product. Some will choose to connect via a hub for the better experience of a widebody with a better product, but others will shudder at the thought of connecting in one of the large European hubs and will choose to fly direct with one of the US carriers.

As I stated previously, the US carriers are not stupid. They've done research and found that the current setup works well for them. If you don't like it, then choose one of the alternatives. If enough people make the same choice, then the market will change. It's really as simple as that.


//Bt7
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STT757
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting gasman (Thread starter):
Surely it is now time to admit the 757 doesn't work on long Atlantic routes?

CO (now UA) have been flying 757s Across the Atlantic for 20 years this May. AA, DL, NWA, US , TWA and a bunch of smaller International carriers all followed their lead adding Businessfirst cabins and launching Trans-Atlantic 757 flights. It's obviously a profitable endeavor.
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777-200
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:29 pm

I think the 757's having to divert is a bigger issue than some of you are making it. There was a thread not too long ago about this and someone calculated that 50-60% of all of UA's TATL from Germany (and some other western European countries) 757's had to divert in the month of January. These diversions usually added 2-3 hours to the scheduled flight time, which I'm sure wreaks havoc on travelers connections.

I think airlines should give travelers a disclaimer in the wintertime on these 757 flights to not plan tight connections.
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Btriple7
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 78):
UA is shameful, but what can you expect of that company.

Quoting skipness1E,reply=51:

Option 1 : direct B757 with potential fuel stop, on occasion may take longer
Option 2 : er....connect indirect and be certain it will always take longer

Option 3: you are paying a premium to fly non-stop instead of connect indirect. However at the end you are flying indirect whatsoever (and you have made your plans according to that). That is more challenging to many people, since you might have booked a train from NYC, have relatives waiting for you at EWR, etc.

Option 4: you might have chose United (you are an infrequent flyer that knows nothing about what a B757 or a B777 is) over other non-stop options. It is pathetic the pro-UA team here praising "you should be grateful to UA that is flying to your city". Many of those cities have other non-stop options to NYC (Berlin, Madrid, Paris, Barcelona, London).

Option 5 (even worse): you are connecting in EWR and you are missing your connection. So it is taking more time than any other option you would have available (connecting in Europe and flying non-stop, connecting in other US port or with other carrier in NYC).
UA is just a company, acting as any normal for-profit organization would. There are actually companies out there that I would label as "shameful", which commit malicious acts or are deliberately belligerent with regards to consumer safety/well-being, but UA is certainly not one of those companies. Labelling them as "shameful" seems like either a deliberate troll on your part or just your personal opinion, so I will leave it at that.

In response to your Option 4, you yourself stated "Many of those cities have other non-stop options to NYC (Berlin, Madrid, Paris, Barcelona, London)." If there are alternatives that are better than UA, then over time, the public will migrate toward those options. Your post assumes that it is UA's obligation to infrequent travelers to offer a "better" product, but I do not agree. UA's only obligation is to be transparent and honest with the consumer about what it offers, which I think they have been. All westbound TATL flights were delayed yesterday (not just those with fuel stops) because of the weather. The airlines can't control the weather, and their policy for dealing with weather-related delays and missed connections is transparent. Perhaps an airline should put a short disclaimer on their site about the frequency of planned fuel stops for a particular route before a buyer clicks "purchase", but by no means is the airline obligated to operate a larger aircraft or a better product because you think they should.


//Bt7

[Edited 2015-02-22 07:45:07]
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rutankrd
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 78):
Option 3: you are paying a premium to fly non-stop instead of connect indirect. However at the end you are flying indirect whatsoever (and you have made your plans according to that). That is more challenging to many people, since you might have booked a train from NYC, have relatives waiting for you at EWR, etc.

Option 4: you might have chose United (you are an infrequent flyer that knows nothing about what a B757 or a B777 is) over other non-stop options. It is pathetic the pro-UA team here praising "you should be grateful to UA that is flying to your city". Many of those cities have other non-stop options to NYC (Berlin, Madrid, Paris, Barcelona, London).

Option 5 (even worse): you are connecting in EWR and you are missing your connection. So it is taking more time than any other option you would have available (connecting in Europe and flying non-stop, connecting in other US port or with other carrier in NYC).

And today a 388 of AirFrance had crew time out and divert on AF7 To Manchester enroute from JFK to CDG due to the weather in the east coast !
 
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Btriple7
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:33 pm

Quoting 777-200 (Reply 81):
I think airlines should give travelers a disclaimer in the wintertime on these 757 flights to not plan tight connections.

I completely agree. Be transparent with the consumer about the frequency of fuel stops for that particular season and let the traveler make their own decision.

Edit: I'd posit that, even with such a disclaimer, many (enough to fill a 757 at least) would still choose the direct flight with a risk of a fuel stop. But that is only a hypothesis.

[Edited 2015-02-22 07:53:47]
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DDR
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Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:48 pm

Just out of curiosity, does an unplanned fuel stop wipe out the profitability of a flight? For example, if a UA flight from say, XXX to EWR was fully booked and UA knows they will earn a profit on this flight, does a fuel stop add so much cost that the flights costs now exceeds the revenue that was collected for the flight?
 
CplKlinger
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:25 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 85):
Just out of curiosity, does an unplanned fuel stop wipe out the profitability of a flight? For example, if a UA flight from say, XXX to EWR was fully booked and UA knows they will earn a profit on this flight, does a fuel stop add so much cost that the flights costs now exceeds the revenue that was collected for the flight?

If that was the case, I can't think of many businesses that would continue to operate a flight that could loose money that way. Hence why this discussion is so futile. Many seasoned experts with an airline planned these flights with one goal in mind - make as much money as safely as possible, and they are.

But we're all experts on the internets, doncha know?
 
UALWN
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Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:28 pm

Quoting Reply 36):
Continental Airlines management utilized this equipment (the Boeing 757-200s with Rolls-Royce engines and winglets) to successfully enter and maintain long/thin markets and augment service to larger markets.

CO utilized this equipment because they were woefully short on wide-body aircraft due to their poor fleet planning.

I find it funny how people here claim that without the 757 those poor city pairs like BCN-EWR, MAD-EWR, CDG-EWR or LHR-EWR would be left without service, poor them, when actually those city pairs are operated multiple times per day by competing airlines with wide-body aircraft that do not suffer fuel stops in winter.

As somebody else pointed out, when one pays more for the convenience of a non-stop flight, one has the right to expect just that, and not an unscheduled visit to Gander.
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rutankrd
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 87):
I find it funny how people here claim that without the 757 those poor city pairs like BCN-EWR, MAD-EWR, CDG-EWR or LHR-EWR would be left without service, poor them, when actually those city pairs are operated multiple times per day by competing airlines with wide-body aircraft that do not suffer fuel stops in winter.

As somebody else pointed out, when one pays more for the convenience of a non-stop flight, one has the right to expect just that, and not an unscheduled visit to Gander.

Or an unscheduled visit to Manchester east bound on your luxurious 388 ?
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2234
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Actually it was not enroute winds - today it was destination weather requiring added fuel for distant alternates.

Another east coast winter storm is hitting today.

This. There are plenty of other flights in to the N.E. today that diverted that weren't 757s... However, I've found that the "angry mob" often doesn't like facts.  
Quoting Reply 36):
My husband has piloted the 757 trans-Atlantic for eight years and has had to make a fuel stop seven times during that period. 707s and the earliest DC-10s sometimes had to make fuel stops due to strong winds on their trans-Atlantic runs. Did that make them the wrong equipment for the route?

This.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 88):
Or an unscheduled visit to Manchester east bound on your luxurious 388 ?

How often does that happen? In the previous thread we learned that in the month of January 2015 TXL-EWR had had an unscheduled fuel stop around 50% of the times. If that happened to your luxurious A380, I would also consider it unacceptable. Only, it doesn't happen, right?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
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Btriple7
Posts: 1207
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:58 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:45 pm

Quoting CplKlinger (Reply 86):
If that was the case, I can't think of many businesses that would continue to operate a flight that could loose money that way. Hence why this discussion is so futile. Many seasoned experts with an airline planned these flights with one goal in mind - make as much money as safely as possible, and they are.

It is possible that on that one leg, the airline operates at a loss. But we can assume that the profit from the outbound leg and from all the other flights without fuel stops more than makes up for those losses. So yes, I agree this discussion is somewhat futile.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 87):
I find it funny how people here claim that without the 757 those poor city pairs like BCN-EWR, MAD-EWR, CDG-EWR or LHR-EWR would be left without service, poor them, when actually those city pairs are operated multiple times per day by competing airlines with wide-body aircraft that do not suffer fuel stops in winter.

See my response earlier:
Quoting Btriple7 (Reply 82):
In response to your Option 4, you yourself stated "Many of those cities have other non-stop options to NYC (Berlin, Madrid, Paris, Barcelona, London)." If there are alternatives that are better than UA, then over time, the public will migrate toward those options. Your post assumes that it is UA's obligation to infrequent travelers to offer a "better" product, but I do not agree. UA's only obligation is to be transparent and honest with the consumer about what it offers, which I think they have been. All westbound TATL flights were delayed yesterday (not just those with fuel stops) because of the weather. The airlines can't control the weather, and their policy for dealing with weather-related delays and missed connections is transparent. Perhaps an airline should put a short disclaimer on their site about the frequency of planned fuel stops for a particular route before a buyer clicks "purchase", but by no means is the airline obligated to operate a larger aircraft or a better product because you think they should.

I also want to note: I really, really dislike UA for a variety of reasons, but the criticism against them in this thread just doesn't stand up to logic. UA is making a sensible business decision with these routes. They've put a lot more time and effort into researching and planning these routes than any of us armchair CEOs ever had. This TATL model works for them, so I don't understand this sense of outrage that some feel toward that. We are free to criticize this business model, but using terms like "shameful" and "unacceptable" is pretty ridiculous.

//Bt7
Just...fly.
 
rutankrd
Posts: 3025
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:08 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 90):
How often does that happen? In the previous thread we learned that in the month of January 2015 TXL-EWR had had an unscheduled fuel stop around 50% of the times. If that happened to your luxurious A380, I would also consider it unacceptable. Only, it doesn't happen, right?

Several times last year with Lufthansa A340 and 388 frames it happens.

Also happened with the 762 of US making calls at Manchester with pre-planned fuel stops from Rome !

Adverse weather has consequences period !
 
Q
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 10:29 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:23 pm

That's why United will switch aircraft for EWR-LIS no more using 757 will use 767-300 in spring. They are tired of diversion often.

Q
 
frostyj
Posts: 1786
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:04 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting Q (Reply 93):

I have to wonder why Dublin has not been upgraded to a 767??
[url=http://m.maploco.com/details/5f34zxvq][img]http://www.maploco.com/vmap/s/8395334.png[/img][/url]
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:31 pm

Diversions over fuel even happen within the U.S. About 15 years ago, my father was flying on an AA 757 from ORD to SAN. As the pilots explained, the weather model had a line of very strong thunderstorms blowing up over the southern Great Plains, after the aircraft had passed.

So, the amount of jet fuel was determined, based on the weather model.

As it turned out, the storm front blew up earlier and farther west than anticipated. The flight had to alter its course to the north, to fly around the north end of the front. This used a lot of fuel requiring a diversion to PHX to refuel for the leg to SAN.

AA had a lot of problems with the Embrear 135/140/145, after the FAA mandated heavier weights for passengers and baggage for calculating weight and balance. Often, if weather at a destination required a higher fuel load for holding and diversion, the plane was weight restricted, usually meaning baggage was taken off, but sometimes even passengers were put off.
 
N628AU
Posts: 375
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 4:20 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:32 pm

The argument of a connection vs a diversion isn't compeltely accurate. If you are connecting between a medium sized city in Europe to one in the US (think OSL-BNA) it isn't merely a connection vs diversion but a double connection vs a connection and possible diversion. And we are talking about winter months with lower passenger loads, stronger jet streams and poor destination weather with far off alternates. Right now there is weather in the US basically from Maine to Dallas. A 100% chance of a double connection vs the single connection with a chance of a diversion is an easy one to make.
 
GIANCAVIA
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:45 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:36 pm

Is this thread a joke? 1 day out of the entire year, I genuinely laughed.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 92):
Several times last year with Lufthansa A340 and 388 frames it happens.

Are you really trying to compare "several" times in a year for a fleet of I don't know how many A340s and A380s with 19 times in a month for a single UA flight, TXL-EWR?

Quoting giancavia (Reply 97):
Is this thread a joke? 1 day out of the entire year, I genuinely laughed.

1 day out of the entire year? IIRC from the previous thread, only in January 2015 TXL-EWR diverted 19 days out of 31.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
nikeherc
Posts: 670
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:40 pm

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:10 pm

I am curious to know if those who most adamantly criticize the use of the 757 westbound from Europe have been inconvenienced by fuel stops on such flights and if so, how often. It seems that they are aviation experts and know what types of aircraft are being used when they make their reservations. Therefore the issue must be moot to them.

If this issue is indeed moot to such individuals, why are they putting so much effort into this discussion? The airlines using 757s find them suitable, enough passengers agree to keep the flights operating and they keep arriving safely. What's the problem?
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 21904
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting Reply 36):

United's single-aisle service across the Atlantic isn't deprivation by any stretch of the imagination, just as a fuel stop necessitated by above average headwinds isn't evidence of a crisis of management.

If 60-70% of the flights operated during January have to divert, then you are using a very unconventional definition of "average."

If I purchase a ticket TXL-EWR-JFK-BDL, that's a pain in the butt, but at least I know what I'm getting. If I purchase a supposed nonstop TXL-EWR-BDL and then the TXL-EWR leg gets delayed for three hours in a fuel stop, I will miss my connection. And that's a lot harder to plan for.

Remember, a lot of what frustrates passengers is unexpected delays. Not scheduled ones.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
afcjets
Posts: 3530
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 18):
Even then what about comfort? Is it good to sit in a domestic configuration for 9 to 10 hours?

I would agree except today we have AA squeezing 10 abreast seating on 777s.

Quoting ckfred (Reply 95):
Diversions over fuel even happen within the U.S. About 15 years ago, my father was flying on an AA 757 from ORD to SAN. As the pilots explained, the weather model had a line of very strong thunderstorms blowing up over the southern Great Plains, after the aircraft had passed.

True, but that flight ORD-SAN likely did not take off with a full tank, whereas these TATL diversions are.

The 757 was clearly not designed for TATL routes and did not make them in their early years at least among legacy carriers. There may be some exceptions I am not aware of like SNN or charters. I wonder what would happen if during one of these routines diversions a winter storm occurred and Bangor and surrounding airports received several feet of snow. If JFK can close for weather, I am assuming BGR can also, and obviously even more snow can fall there.

When Piedmont Airlines launched CLT-LAX and CLT-SFO flights in 1984 with brand new extended range 727-200s, once in a while the LAX flight diverted to PHX for fuel. IIRC, the flight attendants handed out $20 bills in cash when this happened. IMO, airlines should be required to compensate for diversions during routine operations, and heavy head winds westbound during the winter are routine, and the bottom line is diversions are happening because airlines are choosing to dispatch aircraft on routes that are not suitable. If this got more press with as much as the public and Congress hate airlines, I am sure they would require disclaimers and compensation. Except for fear United would say fine we will cancel EWR-TXL nonstop service for example, but this would be an empty threat in many markets IMO.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2102
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Atlantic 757 Diversions Feb. 21

Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 48):
eh its probably impossible to have a fuel stop from Shannon to Newark - 3,000 miles out of a range of 4600 miles.. You could basically use a 737 from there

Hush! Don't give airline senior management any ideas.  
Quoting Reply 36):
My husband has piloted the 757 trans-Atlantic for eight years and has had to make a fuel stop seven times during that period. 707s and the earliest DC-10s sometimes had to make fuel stops due to strong winds on their trans-Atlantic runs. Did that make them the wrong equipment for the route?

In my time flying the 757/767, I had no diversions for fuel. Part of that was no doubt due to my preference for DUB (family there). I can recall one diversion for an ill passenger.

As UA takes more 787s, they'll be able to reassign 767s to some of the routes that are problematic in the winter. Then the 752s will be reassigned, etc.

UA seems to be the whipping boy here, but they're hardly alone in flying 757s across the Atlantic.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.

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